The Sh*t Show: we are back to it and the sh*t show continues

After a much-needed long break, The Sh*t Show is back, and while we have an amazing line-up of guests to discuss all angles of the polycrisis between now and the end of the year, this show is just the four of us, making sense of everything that’s been going on these last couple of months. It’s been something hasn’t it?

Where do we even start? The US moving towards an authoritarian state might be a good place, and at least we know Trump is still alive now. Or should we focus on the surge in anti-immigration protests around the globe, bringing some common sense to the discussion? Gaza and Ukraine continue, with forever wars on the horizon, and is China making its play to be the world leader?

The climate emergency continues to accelerate with scientists getting increasingly urgent in their message, and of course, AI maintains its place in the headlines – the good, the bad and the ugly. We also have the global economy in the mix of everything that’s going on and understanding that is critical. 

How do we get ready for such an uncertain future – whether its losing our jobs to AI or societal collapse due to geopolitics, climate calamities, war, or more? It’s a complex time, people are seriously struggling with their mental health, the far-right movement is on the rise, and even if we don’t acknowledge it, something has got to give. No doubt the anticipation of that is not helping anyone. Yep, it’s intense, so tell us - what’s another big topic front of mind for you?

Come and join us, get caught up, this Friday 5th September 2025, 8am UK, 9am EU, 2pm TH, 3pm SG, 5pm AEST. Streaming across various locations, and no doubt about it, we’d love your support. 

The Sh*t Show is a Livestream happening every Friday, where Andrea T Edwards, Dr. David Ko, Richard Busellato and Joe Augustin, as well as special guests, discuss the world’s most pressing issues across all angles of the polycrisis, working to make sense of the extremely challenging and complex times we are all going through, plus what we can do about it. Help us move the needle so we can change the name of the show to something more genteel when (or if) it is no longer a sh*t show. 

#TheShitShow #UncommonCourage

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to the Shit Show. My name is Andrea Edwards. My name is David Koh. And my name is Joe Augustin. And if you're here for the first time and wondering why would anyone name this show the Shit Show? We didn't start off that way. Things kind of changed and we thought this is a better name for describing what we do. Trying to unravel the poly crisis, all the crazy stuff that's going on in the world. Hopefully making the process of finding out about the news a little less stressful than it usually is. I think you saw my post on LinkedIn just a while ago, just saying that it's catching up with the news without having to go through all the clickbait. Hopefully at the end of this all you feel a little bit more well informed and yet somehow a bit more relaxed about things. Unless, of course, you have absolutely no idea about what's been going on, then you're in for a pretty stressful day. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. I was posting earlier about this show to invite people along, us singing, saying that, you know, this is the way to, you know, be. I think of us as being realistically optimistic, although I'm not sure if that's optimistically realistic or just realistically optimistic. Well, that's how I described it. The show actually. Literally. I presume you hadn't read my post. I said the same thing. We're realists with a huge dose of optimism. Yep, there you go. We're definitely lying together on the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I missed the fact that you both said that. Yeah, no, it's like, you know, I've, I find the show, for me personally, it's great because I can sort of consolidate what's going on. This shows a little bit harder to consolidate because there's a couple of months worth of news. But I, and, and I find that consolidation process really kind of it helps me get through this time. And I think of, you know, I speak to so many people, they're just like, ah, I'm out. Or they're terrified or they're fearful. And, you know, I kind of always think the arc of history is very, very long. And unfortunately, most people don't study history, which, which is a real shame. I think it should be one of the top subjects at all schools. You know, there's so many paths that this could go in and I do feel a sense of hope that more and more people who should be speaking up are speaking up. You know, we've talked about failure of an imagination as a topic in the past. And I think I, I still think we suffer from a failure of imagination of how bad things could possibly get. But I am, I think the, I think people are starting to come to terms with some of the stuff that's going on. So, so I don't know. But anyway, how's, how's the break been? That's the important thing. What have you guys been working on? I've been busy. So I've got this book coming out and I, I, I started really talking to people about it and what I love to do, so I'm going to give a plug, it's called Thriving at Nature Space, is to get people to just make, you know, like 10, 15 second comments around. If they're interested, I'll give, I'll send them some copies or some, some, well, not copies because it's not printed yet, but some, some of the manuscript or sections of it and so on. But it really is about how we see the world as it is failing. And what that does is it opens up room. So it's an invitation to young people and young professionals to say, don't worry, don't look at climate change in any way other than as an opportunity for you to thrive. Because there'll be lots of room opening up. Because all the things you see that are the problems. Yeah, they are. That's why there's room for new things to come out. Yeah. I was thinking about that analogy today while I was in the shower thinking about something like that. Right. Thinking like, you know, when times are tough, taking the right decision means that you are on an opportunistic path or not. Right. So I was thinking if you're on the Titanic and you're heading towards the lifeboats, that's an opportunistic path. Yes. So you have to do things despite the things that are happening. And I was, I was actually thinking that on the Titanic, even though it was recognized widely as a disaster, somebody at the end of it when, yes, we did it. Yep, yep. And you know, I think, I think we, we tend to fear that, that sort of giving up of our control in a way that actually allows us to engage with kind of a greater world, with nature out there, with a bigger world out there, because all of these things, what's happening and we're going to go through this is the world trying to shrink in and look after its own little piece more. But in the world when things are uncertain, you need everyone around you. You don't actually going to manage very well in your own little piece. And so anybody who is willing to open up and it's going to reach out their hands and going to go along and it doesn't matter who comes along, they're actually going to engage with them. And the point is engaging doesn't mean you have to agree. You know, I was having this conversation about how we've transactionalized everything. So, you know, I, I buy something off someone, that's the end of it. But if we didn't agree, actually there's much more engagement. It's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Joe, what have you been working on? Well, I've been working on trading and getting myself on my, on my goal, trying to discipline myself. I, I found myself coming to those places where I am, I am terrible at being calm and staying the course because trading is, is about carrying the entire story of your life with you. And when, when the, when the interesting or the challenges come in, those stories come to haunt you, they play out. So I've been, I've been working against some of those demons. But yeah, I've taken on some clients and I'm also mentoring and trading, helping other people not make the same kind of expensive mistakes I've made along the way. That's one part of it. I have entered into partnership to try and talk about doing speaking and trading and stuff like that as well. I entering a, a next phase as well where I'm helping medical, the medical establishment and, and, and hopefully academia in general communicate better in terms of science. I'm trying to get them to, to do a better job and be able to reach across to other people, not inside, you know, the space. Nice. So we've got Vicki who thinks my hair looks nice. Thank you, Vicki. And she thinks your mug looks nice, Joe. Vicki's in good care. Mug is on. Been on many shows in many circumstances. So it's good to have you here, my darling. And we've also got Nico. I was just saying before we started that you're a loyal listener, Nico. So happy to have you here. Yeah, so I've been working on my. Well, I put together a resource page on my website which covers lots and lots of different topics that I think wrap around the poly crisis. And I'm going to talk about some of those topics today. But the other thing is I've almost finished my one day workshop which is called Untangling the Poly Crisis. So it's going to take people deep into it and they're also the solutions to solve it. So I was hoping to get it finished before Our first show, but I'll get there. It's very close now. So that's been very, very, very, like, heady. How do you, how do you capture all of that and, and turn it into a one day knowledge fest? You know, it's got, it's, there's so much. Right. You know, it's such a big, big topic. So. Yeah, but our first topic today. So we're going to go, we're going to do it a little bit differently today and we'll get back into the rhythm of things from next week. But the, the, the question is, is the, is the US and now an authoritarian state? And you know, there's been a lot of apprehension from the US and from even people outside the US not, not willing to say that that is exactly what's going on. I don't know if you guys have been watching the RF RFK Jr. Hearings today. And Joe, you definitely should because what's going on over there is just, it's just crazy town. We of course saw the Venezuela drug boat. The Department of Defense is now being called the Department of War, which, you know, Govern Nome is obviously getting rid. Of the double speaker. Yeah, well, yeah, there, there we go. Govern Nome. He's obviously been a bit of a star. I saw one of the memes today was the Art of the Troll. And the, the interesting thing about that story, of course, is that, um, it's a female that's behind his social media campaign. I think she's doing an outstanding job. Uh, questions? You know, Trump keeps putting a deadline on, on Russia. We never see anything coming from it, but there's a cup, there's a couple of pieces that I just wanted to sort of pull out. One is a guy called Jack Hopkins and he's a former military guy. And I've been following him for a long time. And his article on Substack is MAGA dies with Trump while the movement collapses without its linchpin. And he sort of really makes the argument and I'm absolutely 100 in agreement with what he's saying. What I don't hear enough about is, you know, so last week Donald Trump was dead or Donald Trump had a stroke or, you know, whatever the media was saying and the conspiracy unraveling around that he's not dead, he's back. But what happens when he does go? And I agree with that. Maga's out of the picture. Like, I think the reason he was backed into going for the president for this time was because he had this 30% of the US voting block behind him and no, nobody has that. But with, you know, J.D. vance, who's backed up by the tech bros like Peter Thiel, you know, what does that mean? What's that going to look like? Then Paul Krugman wrote a piece called Decline and Fall of the American Empire and it really talks about how America's success has been around its allies, its strong allies and the perception that even though it is the leader, it's always sort of welcomed these allies in as equal partners. And know, you see what India is doing moving over to, to Russia and China because that I, I think there's a really, there's a disconnect between American arrogance and the rest of the world and how they're going to receive that and this idea that everyone's going to come bowing down know. So just, I've got one more piece that I wanted to reference. But you know, authoritarianism. What do you think? Well, this is going to be a very short segment for me. I was just going to say. Yeah. Exactly. But I think to, to the point and to re echo what I was saying earlier, I think it's not, you know, all of those things is talking about America within America in, in, in that way and what it means and all the rest of it. But the rest of the world's moving away now. I, I sense that people around are actually sort of, we are actually thinking, look, they're not going to help us. I don't know what's going to happen. But we got another three years of this at least in, in that way. And maybe when it goes, it stays or it doesn't but fundamentally that shift mentality shift has happened. That anger people have always had around the world about how kind of that economic imperialism of America and, and then the kind of, you know, what the, the political interference of, you know, CIA and other, other people around has now tipped over into. There is actually nothing for us with these bunch of people over there. So it's very sad for Americans. Lots of Americans I know are kind of there trying to do what they can about it. But the rest of the world, when you look around, especially when you think about what's going to happen next, the world is going to be in greater and greater turmoil because climate effects are going to go and do worse and worse and whatever we think might be the reasons for the tragedies, persistent thermal stress, kind of flooding and other things just basically means you need a lot more maintenance for your infrastructure and places are not increasing their maintenance budgets because they don't have the money. So that means that you're going to have more big failures around. So the domestic issues are going to dominate and they're not going to see any help from these American guys who are just have all the opposite rhetorics to helping even without Trump being there. Yeah, even when it was Kamala Harris or Joe Biden, it was never really about helping other people in that way. It was always America. What is missing nowadays is the, is the obligation for theater. Right. I said like there used to be at least gestures. They used to be about gestures. So gestures may not lift the entire rock. At least they move it along. Right. I mean that's, that's the thing that, that's missing right now. So currently I think what's really missing is the sense of like, oh, we need to care anymore. So it's like now pants are optional. Right. So it's like it's not, it's not a necessity anymore to behave like a gentleman. Because this is what we are. We're in our own home. You know, it's my place. I can like my, my house, my rules. Right. And because they're inward focusing and, and you know, it's all been set up by the past. I mean the, the, the, the past. We're here not because of just one presidency or two presidencies. It, it's actually a series of, of actions or inactions that have led us to a point where this is possible. This, this wouldn't be a possibility had the machinery of government in. Well, it's because of the failures. It's because of the fact that people are paying, you know, significant taxes and not getting infrastructure. They're paying significant taxes and they're not getting ease of, you know, services and, and, and they're, they're being bogged down by too many restrictions and stuff like that. There's the rise of, you know, it can all get entangled together as well, but there's the rise of wokism as itself. It's tied in with other stuff as well. So you combine wokeism with all the different kinds of rules and regulations, for instance, that come along with a place like California. Right. If you, if you want to, if you want to make a change on your property and the backyard, which affects nobody else, you've got to get so many permits that it's just frustrating. They go, they get to the point where they go, you know, why, why is every. Everything being managed? Why, why are we having so many rules about so many things? Why do we have to carry so many things? In our. In our mind just to do the normal business of everyday life, that when someone comes along and says, you know what? Forget all that. We don't have to worry about that. How would you like a place where has no. Which has no rules? And it sounds really appealing. Yeah. Funny that as wokism is interesting, you know, like, I mean, I look at the sort of step back and look at this big picture and it's like everything that we need to be doing right now as a global society, we're going in the opposite direction. And it's almost like I can, you know, I've put myself in the shoes of some of these people doing, leading these things before. It's. It's almost like if, if I was sitting there and I didn't think we could do anything about what we're facing as a global society, this would be the path that I would take. Close. Close the doors, close the borders, you know, each for their own, that sort of thing. Because you don't have the imagination to believe that we can do something better. But we are going in the absolute opposite direction. And there's a lot of people cheering this direction on without fully comprehending like, this is the direction that will absolutely 100% guarantee immense suffering worldwide now, no matter what, we can't avoid the suffering of, of the impacts of climate change. We can't. And it's going to get worse even if we do everything right now to address it. So we can't, we can't stop the suffering, but we can certainly minimize it if we come together as a global society and move together. And it's like there's a large percentage of the population that doesn't believe that we're capable of doing that. So therefore we will do this opposite. Right. So there's no cooperation. I think it's. I think there is a bit in the thinking that I would. I'd like to kind of interleave it a little bit with, in. In that sense, because I think what's happening is we are having a failure of, of the structure of government, of governance, because of what it means for what you say about we all come together in that way at the moment, when we think about we all come together is we all come together through the same filter of governance. And for the foreseeable future, I do not see that working. What there is, is you are in Singapore, I'm in the uk. I was on the chat this morning with someone in Malaysia, someone in Kenya, and I'm having conversation later with someone in Peru. And we can come together as individuals to create these pockets of thrive, what I like to call that in the way that you're describing, and actually a piece away all those fears of we're being left to fend for ourselves in this part, in the sense. And that's what coming together today means. Because coming together today is very different, can be very different. And this is especially important for young people and young professionals. I see that as being people between kind of 20 to 35 who are engaged within their careers, engaged with kind of paying taxes and doing those sort of things and stretching down to 15 to kind of going up to the €40 and stuff as they go along through. Because the economy today does not serve them. That's why they have to come together. The economy today serves me and I'm a, you know, kind of 60 year old because it's designed to serve me. All of the investment system, everything else is geared towards serving me. So that's why, that's the underlying reason. And you know, you know, Richard and I, we always have this kind of macroeconomic perspective of what it is, why all these things fail because we are the ones who vote, are the ones who turn up. So the whole governance system is geared towards this. And even if you then go around the same thing, what you're going to find is that government budgets are also designed to serve this. That's where the social contract is. That's where the real social contract is. And that's the problem. Why the coming together ends up failing is because they keep feeding back into the same mechanism. That's not going to work. You need something on top, something new, something different, and it's going to give you every opportunity to create it. Yeah, no, we, we, we need a revolution. Absolutely. You know, I was listening to, to, to a story about, you know, the, the debt in the develop so developmental debt. Right. So because they're paying so much debt, they can't spend the money that they need to spend on adaptation. So cancel their debt so that they can spend the money on adaptation. Because if you don't do everything we can to support the people to stay where they are and live in their homes, then they're going to get on the move and we're going to have a billion, a billion climate refugees. And, and we all know that that's going to be an absolute disaster. Well, you don't need to cancel the debt, you need to swap it. And, and the way to do that is because if you say cancel the debt, it doesn't work because the, the. Look, you have to spend this money on this, you know, to determine how, determine what needs to happen. Whatever the. What. Whatever the right words are. The, the most important thing is if we don't start like, you know, I was watching a story about Bangladesh. They need help, you know, and if they don't, if we don't help them, they're going to be on the move because their land is going to be overrun by seawater. Right. Well, the, the issue is simply, is, is that partnership, is that cooperation between people. And this is debt in those ways. As we keep thinking about public money, public money, I got a slide later I can show and all the rest of it in, in that way about government debt. But public money is running out. And between now and 2030, there is expected to be $20 trillion to. That will be inherited by the younger generation. This $20 trillion is more than all the money people are talking about. And it's going into these young people that I'm talking about that I want to call together and think about how they thrive and what we do about challenge these opportunities. And changing the way you think about investments will make all of these things happen. So the debt, as you say, so what you then do is you go along and you say, rather than paying in that way, I'm going to create a fund as my country. So I pick a country, Mali or wherever it is, I'm going to say, I have so much debt now, I've got so much service interest. I'm going to invite you to be a partner in this where we're going to use it together to invest, and you can put some more in there as well. And then we can actually go and get the technology and stuff together. And you're a joint investor into our ventures, and these ventures serve you because we are actually going to create opportunities for you to actually shine, let your genius shine in these things too. That's the language you need today. That's the interaction. That's the engagement you need today. Because that debt, that's the burden, is the resource that will bring in the support. But we think of it only as the burden. We want to put that aside. And then we want to think separately about how we go and get the money along. When you do that, you've defined, faltered on one engagement and you're trying to bring them back in another. That makes it really hard to do. It's much easier to go along and say, there is this $20 trillion. How can we get young people to talk with young people? There Help them appreciate what this is and actually see what they can. And every little bit, every little helps. And we're going to contribute our debt payment interests as part of that contribution and we'll write a clause in there so that when we grow along, then we can share what we have. That's the way that you can actually go along and actually move forward today. Anything else, you are just simply back ticking your battering ram against the same governance structure, against the same economic thinking. That canceling has been there since 1970s. Has it worked? It has not worked. Has it not worked because it was not well executed? I mean, we have, like I was listening to the story of Liberia, for instance, and they seem to have made some progress. It's not as stellar as we might imagine it could be, but it seemed to give them a leg up. It does not work because most countries run primary deficits. In other words, even without debt interest, they don't have enough to work. Typically what happens then is when you cancel the debt, there's a splurge in some sense, but it's not actually organized. It's almost like you now open the floodgate to too much money in some sense. Yeah. So the question I have is in terms of how debts can be canceled but conditionally, as in you say, okay, well look, if all these things are going to happen and it's part of the deal that we have, then, then, then this, either this debt is canceled or it's been put on hold, no interest payments and it's pending cancellation, given structural changes, for instance. No, it's not, it's not, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a swapping. It's just not. You don't think of it as a cancellation at all. Debt is an asset. Right? I, I, you know, my pension holds government bonds. Yeah. So debt is an asset. It's an asset to me when you cancel it. You hurt someone's assets in that way. But if you go along and you say, I have an IOU to do to you, what I'm going to do is I'm going to have this business which you like, and I want you to invest along into what you think is a good business so that we can work together and I'll put this asset into it, this asset is my debt and we'll swap it. So now instead of you waiting for interest payment out of this asset on these terms is now we jointly work together with this thing in order for it to produce a stream of revenues for us in the future. Should have gone for that finance class. Right? So we, we, we haven't cancelled anything. We have actually traded our way into a better position. Okay, but does that, does that invest in dams, water retention, farmland, soil regeneration? Is that what you're talking about? Well, that's where we'll then come along and think what things will generate that revenues into the future and for what cost. So now you go along. It's very different than say, dams are great. Let's just go and build a dam without thinking how is that actually going to generate revenue? Because instead of the big massive damage, what you might do instead is just, you know, kind of on conversation with someone who, who's in lives in this arid region in Kenya. And we're sort of trying to think about a program for people on the promise of water. And I did this thing with him and says, okay, you don't have much water. You guys travel so many kilometers every twice a week in order to bring back, you know, 40 liters. And how do you use it? What goes on there? And it turns out that in one day 10 liters end up being poured away from washing and other uses. So the thing is, well, what happens if you capture that? How can you clean that? What can you do? So you can then invest it in saying, what are the technologies that the people there can develop for themselves to create as a market that they can then do with water? And that is far quicker and more effective than building a massive dam to try and pipe the water through in a world where you don't know whether it's rain. That's the thing. But if I'm an investor, I may favor this and you may favor a dam, it opens up. What may be done at the moment, it's one government official deciding for everyone else. That's where it fails. Yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm not won over by your argument just because it, it's a, it's a, it's an exchange in value. So something else that might be necessary isn't going to be invested in because it doesn't have a way of making money. But you're not going to be able to invest in everything. And that's the point of this. We all think we would like to. The fact is, in the world we're going to, you're not going to have everything. I know, but whatever. But if you like, if your primary goal is to keep people where they are and to allow people to live with safety and dignity where they have access to Clean air, clean water, enough food if and, and shelter that's appropriate for the, for where they live. Right. If we make that the centerpiece and, and, and the safety of all children. You know, I, I did a, a, a show with Praveen Gupta who said the most dangerous person in the world is the girl child. You know, to live in a world where that is no longer the case. So children are safe, they're, they're cherished. And we have all of these other things there isn't necessarily like in the uk you don't own your. It's. The water is owned by private industries, which means it's not being invested in, which means it's a bloody disaster. And as, as the drought continues, it's going to become an even bigger disaster for the entire country. Right? So to me it's a case of this is core that we need for the entire world that we say this is what we offer and everything else that doesn't contribute to that is what we need to start looking at and, and saying, you know, I've talked about industries before, right? It's time to get rid of. You know, we saw the plastics treaty fail again. You know, it's, you know, plastic ever made is still here. I, I think guys, I think people, I think there is the. What, what I want to say along in this is that all of those things prejudges what you think is good versus someone else. There's a part in book Good Economics for Hard Times by Apaji Banerjee and his, his partner, who's both Nobel laureates married to each other, Esther du Flo. And it has amazing arguments. It's brilliant. I mean, you know, you can imagine them having, you know, that dinner arguments, right. You know, it'll go in from domestic to economics kind of bouncing back. And you, you have this thing, they had this part in there where he talked about a place, a program, a food program. He gave people food money to buy food. One guy went and bought a TV and the program was really angry about this and he went along and asked why. And then the guy says, well look, you know, a TV can I, can I can use to make money. You know, after you're gone, the food is going to be gone. Yeah, but this actually gives me something else. The point is the program prejudges what that money should be used for. We have all these things about prejudging. The point of good investments is that it allows the person in the situation to be able to be the one that decides what it is that they are going to help them more at that point. It isn't. And we live under this world where we prejudge everything most of the time. You know, we think this program is what we need to do. All of that stuff is rubbish and all of that stuff, you know, we just waste energy and all the rest of it. And they are true from our perspective, but we don't know what that is. That just means that we shouldn't do that. But we don't know what that means for the person in Bangladesh, as you were pointing out earlier, in terms of what they think is actually helping them. And the point about such a swap program, such an exchange program, it allows the investment decisions to be organized by them because it's now their money, their asset that they can actually use to bring in the investments on their terms. As opposed to a grant funded approach where the grantor always decides on every detail. I totally agree with what you're saying on that front. Like the determination has to be at the local level. So you know, when you listen to people like Roger Hallam, he's talking about civic assemblies, you know, so we need to all be getting more involved rather than every four years we show up, we vote and then those people have got to get on and get, get stuff done on our behalf. Right? That, that, that doesn't work anymore. Right. They're sitting on our ass criticizing from the couch. Those days are long gone. So we, we all need to get more involved and it has to be at the local level. And I totally agree with you that, you know, the people dictating how someone in Africa should be dealing with, with grant money when they absolutely have no idea what that life is like for them on where they are. So what I was talking about wasn't a program. It was sort of a philosophy of, of the basic expectations of existence for, for every human. But that's where people in those places have their own perspectives. Exactly. That's what cultural values differ. And that's what you can't go along and say. You know, if you open it up for them to decide, then it will be bad. You don't know that. No, no, we're agreeing with each other, David, because, because it is, it is up to them to, to decide the right to clean, I'm saying the right to clean water, clean air, enough food and safety and dignity and shelter that's appropriate for where they live. That's not a, I'm not, I'm not telling them what that looks like because it's different everywhere. You go, and every society is different and we've got collectivist societies and individuals of societies. But right, right now, what I'm saying is we, we, you know, it's like, it's like the, the Sustainable Development Goals. That's basically what they are, you know. Yeah. Even there. I mean, I, I, you know, what I'm saying is even one step beyond that, the sustainable developed goals appropriate to a region, a community, a person are the goals that they themselves see as the most relevant to them at the. You know, I think, and I'm getting, I'm getting what you're saying. I see the difference here, right? As in, like. So what I'm, what I'm hearing is, you know, Andrea, saying it from the outside. We see some big problems and some, some big, big structural things that we can see. But you're, you're also saying, David, that on the inside, though, it might be a different thing. Like we can go like, there is a, there is a, there is a, There is a. We might see from the outside there's a huge education problem. And internally that country says we don't have enough spam. Right. And, and it's, and, and for them, that's the bigger problem. And, and, and they got to try and figure a way to, to sort out their spam shortage. Right. I mean, that's, yeah. It's like we talk of oxygen, right? We always talk about having oxygen, but if you're an anaerobic bacteria, oxygen is the. Yeah, right. Okay. That's the point. Okay. I, I think you guys are in agreement. And I think, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good. It's just like watching mom and dad fighting. We're not fighting. One of the other one, one of the other articles that I thought was really interesting, it's called the Existential. It's on substack called the Existential Republic as a guy called Christopher Armitage and his public policy and investigative journal journalism. And basically the title is I researched every attempt to stop fashion in history. The success rate is 0%. So basically, once the fascists get in, you're looking at a 30 to 35 on average sort of year sort of reign. And basically the difference is that he, he was pointing out. So. And the most recent example, obviously we, we, we've got Germany, we've got Spain, Italy, but the most recent is obviously Hungary. So oran won in 2010. By 2011, he'd rewritten the constitution. By 2012, he controlled the media. By 2013, he'd gutted the judiciary and he it's 2025 and he's still in power and the EU is still running strongly worded letters against against it. But what I found really interesting about it was there's never been a country like the United States that's gone into fascism. And he said no wealthy democracy with nuclear weapons has ever fallen to fascism. The 1930s examples everyone sites were broken countries. You know, the US wasn't broken before this. As far as the rest of the world is concerned from an economics perspective. You know, can I try and show something, share something. I'm not sure if I, if I how this is going to work. And I didn't realize, I kind of implicitly realized this, but didn't really quite realize it. Tense moment folks, as we go for a high tech bar. Yeah, exactly. Is it coming up? Yep. Slowly. Okay. You see it? Yeah, yeah. So this is the immigration in the country. I've got another slide that that's sort of interesting to show along as well. And so you've US has like the largest immigrants in, in the cut in the country, 50 million people, which is actually a great thing. That's why is this economy keeps flourishing in the way that it does. So you know I, I'm, in some ways I'm kind of one side of me is sort of saying great, you're killing the immigration. So you're killing your own country. That's your problem. But it has 22% of it is essentially without legal status. And that's a large proportion in that way that's 10 million people. You know, US is 350 million people or whatever it is. So it's kind of a significant proportion in there. 10 out of 350, 1 out of 35 kind of thing. So is someone who is a person without a legal status in the, in the US no other country comes close to it. The UK is seven, it's kind of the next and Spain after that along there. And I think that's really relevant to this kind of sense of is it a broken country or not? Because there is this sense, there is this drive behind all of the things that Trump talks about in terms of just where that is really, you know how they feel that and here is a, is the immigrants by their U.S. germany, Saudi Arabia, Russia, United Kingdom, United Arab Emirates in this sort of order in terms of the proportion of people. So you have this whole amount and something like, you know, 20% of 15% is like 3%. Right. Of the population has no legal status in the US and by the way this is also, this next part is the number of people exiting the country, the number of immigrants, and the US don't exit it in proportion. India, Mexico, Russia, China, Syria, Bangladesh, Pakistan. So this is sort of the official ones that are going out rather than the legal ones that are going out in that sense. And it's interesting to watch what those things are. So I'm just going to stop that there. I'm just going to bring back. Is America a broken country? It has a very peculiar situation where a large enough number of the people there actually don't have legal status, so they're disenfranchised. So they, they create kind of all the frictions in some sense, in one sense or another. Now they also allow America to grow. When you say they create the friction, it's they, them, they're creating the friction or the friction is being created because of them. I'm not sure which way wrong. But basically is this sense whenever a community starts feeling that somehow resources become limited, you now see, because there are so many, in that sense, about 3% of your population in that way that you start seeing actually there are these people who don't have legal status, which means that they are not seen to contribute or abide by the code of citizenship. Yeah, but I have trouble with accepting that thesis simply because if you look at all the other countries on that list, right, you have countries which far, at far lower numbers that seem to have far more successful fascist tendencies. Right. So it doesn't hold, I think it doesn't hold water just because there's a. Oh, I don't mean whether you have a fascist, I don't mean whether it leads to the fascism or not. I, I what? You know, there are the reasons, it's a contributory factor, but there are lots of other reasons of why fascism may not take hold. And, and, and I'd like to bring this picture up. I'm all in for kind of sharing today. I went on a walk last year with my son who lives in the East End of London, and we came across a number of things and this is one of the things that we came across. And this is Cable street in London. And back in 1936, on October 4, I think the fascists in the UK, the black shirts, were going to have this march through that area and it's heavily immigrant sort of area, and there were about 5,000 sort of black shirts that were expected to congregate in March and about 300,000 people turned up to oppose it. They literally filled the street. They were going to march through and the police were trying to clear them and they stood grant against it. And to the point about if they take code, then they don't stop. Well, this is kind of one of the elements where this changes. And obviously people say, well, the politics important. Politicians have their roles and stuff, but politicians respond to how the masses behave. When you have 300,000 people turning up in this one single street, Cable street, by the way, is named because they make the, the ropes for the boats, but going back to sort of like, you know, the 18th century and stuff. So it's a very long street because they need very long straight path to make, to make kind of the ropes for those, the boats that used to sail in that way. So it's around that area along. And this is the sort of thing, I think that we still have that. And this goes to Joe's point. Rather. Than what are the elements that necessarily causes the frictions that can lead to fascism, it's important to actually think what are the elements that are present that can oppose it from taking hold? Yeah. And I think, but I think that's something that we're studying to definitely see. We've got Nick Nico asking, how can you stop the movement of people while the world leaders are focused on focusing or competing in wars? And you know, was obviously a huge part of the migration. And you know, when you were looking at those numbers, I'd love to see, you know, Bangladesh right now is looking at, put kicking out the Rohingya who've been living in camps there. We often don't see the numbers of people who are refugees in, within their own countries or in their neighbor countries, but not necessarily in Western countries. And the other day I shared a, a video about in India, it's. We've already hit the point where even the very, very, very wealthy Indians aren't getting to the front of the line at the US Embassy to get their families out. Right. So we've already hit the point where the move, the movement of people is now being restricted even towards the very, very wealthy. So I found that a really interesting. I, I knew that time was coming. I didn't realize it would be coming so quickly. But, but the, the bigger point, you know, you kind of think the world sort of made a decision, you know, in World War I and World War II, that fascism wasn't a good thing. And yet here we are on the cusp of it in a country like from the day I was born, I would never have imagined we'd be sitting here facing what we're facing now with American America possibly being a fascist nation, you know, and, and I think it's, it's, it's really overwhelming for a lot of people because people don't understand what it means. And I said to my husband Steve the other day, I'm like, we, like the coming years are not going to be easy. And I still think a lot of people are sitting there wishing that it could be easy. It can't be easy again, you know, because, well, cataclysm is, you know, it's. Coming, it is coming, but it's also opportunities for people just as kind of a skill was pointing out at the beginning in that way, you know, and, and, and I think we, we forget America during the, during the California Gold rush became extremely racist. The Chinese were banned for like a decade. Australia followed with the Australian Gold rush and, and all of that. It was this sort of immigration flow that they did not want those people. The McCarthy era was extremely, that kind of, you know, you don't call it fascist in that way, but it was extremely prejudice, prejudicial. It basically was a period where an excuse was used to remove everyone they didn't like in positions that they felt should not be managed by people of a different thinking. And whether they actually thought it or not was irrelevant. So we have that in America. It isn't like something different in that way. And we had that in the uk. It's just that in the UK was spread over much longer history and came up in little pockets over time. It is a part of our history. I think what is surprising about us at the moment is the fact that we are actually heading into a world where the circumstances are going to make things harder. And in my mind, because climate change is unrelenting, it is not going to come out the other way by saying, we are going to grow out of it. Yeah. Not economically. We're going to mature and grow out of it. Kind of like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Well, look, you know, we've got it as a bit of a later topic, but I wanted. David, you shared with me. Let me see if I can just get one of them. This is a, A population. Does it come up? Yeah, a population demographic that David shared with me and I've got a bunch of others, but as you can look at it, it's a Christmas tree. Right. And so at the very, very top you've got the elders. At the very bottom you've got, you've got birth rates. So Singapore is probably not a great example because It's a small country. But when, when it comes to what we've been seeing recently with the, with the protests. So Australia had its Nazi, Nazi protests over the weekend. I know England's been going through it as well. Racism on the rise, just, just around the world. But, but when you look at the birthright replacement. So one of the stories that we'll talk about potentially later is AI is being embraced in Asia because they've recognized that because of the birth rate being so low, they're going to need AI and robotics to do the jobs because they're not going to have the populations to do it. So that, that's, that's one mindset. But when you look at, and I'm going to ask David to explain it, like immigration is going to be critical because Japan's already tiny birth rate, Korea's already got a tiny birth rate. They're predicting that Europe's going to have the next tiny birth rate where it's going to actually start to have a massive impact because if you don't have people working and earning money, paying into society, then that's, that's when the real problem starts. So in some ways I've been looking at these protests just going, they're just, they're really missing the point. But David, do you want to talk about the economies of migration and why it is actually important based on the demographic changes? And the environment contributes to demographic changes too, because we've got all these endocrine disruptors in the environment through all the plastics, microplastics, forever chemicals. So we're going to be having less children just because we're not going to be able to produce children because we're putting so much poison into our environment. So this is, this is a, this is a similar thing basically on the basis of a developed world, which is the one to the left, the less developed world, minus the least developed. So that's all the countries from kind of China, Vietnam to kind of Cambodia and places like that. And the most developed world are basically the us, Europe and places, Singapore and that sort of places, Japan, Korea. And then you have the least developed, which is basically Africa, apart from, you know, kind of South Africa taking out South Africa and maybe sort of some, some other north and some North African nations in that way. And what you, you get is this population pyramid, which traditionally looks like the one most on the right, where you have this kind of real energy of people coming up. And economically the problem is that as we get older, we get stuck within our own comfort zones and we don't innovate to create dramatically new things. We actually innovate in terms of thinking about, well, you know, how we carry on. We start worrying about going, how are we going to manage to do our shopping More than we think, actually, it's okay. We keep working and forget about what it is to think about what else we might try and do next. So that's that fundamental driver of that economic growth. Innovations, they don't tend to come to people when they're older in that way because other things start bothering them in that sense. And when you lose that and when your young people don't see themselves, what's happened is if you take a look at what's happening in Europe and increasingly in Asia, I had this conversation with two young men yesterday in Hong Kong. You work very hard, but what you're doing is you're working to serve an economic system that feeds this aging generation. So you are actually finding you've got less and less time. You get up in the morning, you go to work, come back after dawn, and you just work all the time. And what you're doing is the value of what you're generating feeds and flows off into this older generation that needs more care, needs is going to take the luxury, the money that they receive. They're actually going to go along and enjoy themselves because that's the mode we've been thinking about. That's very much a mode that's prevalent in sort of Asia and those sort of places. You know, you have to work hard and then, you know, you get to retire and you get to enjoy. And people want earlier retirement in those ways. And so you don't have time to have your children and there's nothing coming along. You are simply going to run out of that innovative engine and you want to replace that with AI. But AI doesn't need humans, and in the pure machine world, it doesn't need any of the, of the economy that we have. And that's kind of interesting because if you go along and you take this to the extreme of say, well, it's all going to get replaced by AI, we'll be okay. What that means is that we are actually just serving this older generation even more. They're gonna. This AI is not actually innovating in anything different other than to serve this older generation. And that means. But from a, from an economics point of view, it that, that. I think that's the bit that those protesters don't seem to appreciate that when they get older, the immigrants are going to be critical in Making sure that they're going to be okay, whether it's carers, nurses, doctors, just tax income, making sure that they can get their pensions. Right. The immigration is going to be critical. I think, I think it's even more basic than immigration. Not immigration. You need young people. Yeah. And if you end up depleting yourself of young people, you have no prospect. Exactly. And, and so you, you, it doesn't really matter in a sense where those young people are, but if you don't welcome them, they're not going to serve you. Yeah. So, so you either open your hands and sort of says great young people, I love young people. Come along. Yeah. Or you say I hate young people. Or, or you say, you know, I hate the immigrants without realizing what you're turning away are the young people. And even if you turn them all back to their country, what they're going to think is those people, they don't like us anyway. We don't really want to have anything to do with them. And so you get this least developed countries demographically, as far as how the economies can progress forward. They are the place where there is real opportunity for the economy actually to progress because develop. If they're not climate deserts. Right. Well, it doesn't matter. I think this is the point. It doesn't matter whether they are what we conceive of climate deserts because over time they will find ways to deal with that along. It's like my conversation with that young man in, in the arid regions of Kenya. Over time they will find ways to move along in that way. And that young man in Kenya is able to grasp all the knowledge that we have. I had another conversation with a young man in Nigeria that was more on water sanitation and they have the means and the understanding to grasp all the scientific knowledge and all the social and economic knowledge that there is floating around. That's the difference today versus thinking. They're like the 18th century, kind of the 19th century people in Africa where the Europeans held the key to technology. That's not true anymore. That's where you're a little bit more optimistic than I am. Just because, you know, when I, when I speak to people in, in Africa in particular, or India, Pakistan, those temperature extremes that they've been experiencing which are only going to get hotter. So it's not just the ability to, to survive through those heat waves, it's. It's the long term ability to survive through those heat waves. It's the crop impacts which, which means we're going to see more things like famines. So for me, it's, you know, we need to be. Look, you know, there's, there's a strip of the world that's going to have to be abandoned. Yeah, but this is where, this is where the, the, this split. I think we've taken Joe out of this conversation. This is where this split between American Europe versus China is actually aligning people differently. You know, what China has done, what American Europe says is, we don't want to deal with China. China is going to flood us with cheap solar panels and all those things. And China is saying, well, if they become dirt cheap so that everyone can have access to them, then we can deal with a lot of these things. Yeah, and we're seeing that in Pakistan. Right. A record number of, of individual investments in, in solar panels, not government. Yeah, but that's not. But, but I'm, but I'm talking beyond that. I'm talking the unhospitable environment where it actually becomes no longer possible for people to be able to stay where they are, which I don't think is that far away. And when you listen to the scientists, they, they're still saying 20, 50. I think it's much, much closer. If we just keep going up, which we are. It's. I think the places which will find that to be the more the problem are the developed world as we go to it. And, you know, this is again, back to this population pyramid. You start knocking out percentages of your population. If you have a healthy population pyramid, you're fine. If you have a terrible population pyramid, you are now in trouble. And so that's how it's going to go along. If you look at the US or the UK or something like that, what's going to happen is actually that the older generation have the wealth to protect themselves. They're kind of making themselves the last to go. So this Christmas tree thing is going to get even worse. It's going to be like an upside down. It's going to be really narrow at the bottom a lot. Yeah, exactly. So, and so those effects actually amplify the problem you're talking about in terms of immigration and all those other things. Yeah, yeah. So it's a bit like everything. It's a big, complex problem. Right. But again, we've just got to look it in the eye. Joe, what do you, what do you, what do you think when you're sitting there listening to us rabbiting on? No, no, I was thinking about how there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a factor here about how people tend not to move from where they are even, even when things get really, really difficult. Right. I mean, it's, it's like you say, what is inhospitable? The US Is full of places called Tornado Alley. You know, there are places that, where people go like, you know, this is a bad place to be. It's an earthquake zone. We're living on a fault, all those different things. And people go, we're still going to be here. So, I mean, I think, I think there's a, there's a certain propensity for people to figure out how to make do. I mean, you have people living in Ayers Rock, I mean, not Ayers Rock, but, you know, Alice Springs. Right. People still live at Alice Springs. And you go, why would anyone live at Alice Springs? And you go, like, well, there's some economic reasons for that, but yeah, I guess so. But, but otherwise, I think it's arguably inhospitable. I, I wouldn't think it'd be a place where you want to invest perhaps at a hotel. And then you go, like, okay, but there's business. And so people travel for business. And so we're going to have a hotel. We also have an airport because people have to travel for business. But then you step back and go, like, but would you want to go there? Not really. But, you know, people still, still live there. So I, I, I, I think there's something about the way people are. There's a kind of stubbornness that we have to try to make things work as well before we say, you know what, I'm giving up completely on this. I think we're not necessarily mobile, not only for climate reasons, but you have. The same thing happens for economics and social as well. People find themselves in situations where you go, like, why would you want to live here? Like, no, but this is where I live. And I think there's a factor there as well. So people will tend to try to make the best of what they can. It's a human spirit to push towards that. And I think that's going to be one factor. But I think the other part of it is true, that you have to really figure out how to improve things as well, because you don't want them to be unnecessary suffering, you don't want there to be unnecessary deaths. Preventable death is probably the thing that we are probably most, I think we'd serve humanity best if we can figure out how to, you know, stop preventable death, preventable suffering, you know. Yeah. So I still think there's a bit of old, old thinking like people would stay, you know, earthquake zone knowing or tornado alley knowing that, you know. But, but, but now we're seeing an escalation. Not necessarily. Well, earthquakes seem to be pretty active. Right. Geologic sort of activities are going off the charts. This book anyway, so this is good economics for hard times. And you know, it's, it's by Abigi Banerjee and Esther Duflo. And in it it also talks about the point that Joe, Joe makes along. People find it, people don't leave if they can help it. Yeah, it, it, it especially sort of, sort of communities and things that you talk about because they have that community, they have the support and they go somewhere completely different. And, and so the, the connection to the place is really strong. Yeah. The issue which I guess we talking about effectively is how can they find their way to thrive as the world changes around them. And the other part of this issue is this sense that we need somehow to help them. But with the changes in sort of places like the US completely shutting down, US aid and all those things that inflow of money along is stopping and that's actually not a bad thing in some ways. And I'm certainly going to be misunderstood by saying it in that way. And the reason is because it opens their eyes to the economics that they themselves have to see how they can go forward because we need them to do that because our economics is failing. Our economics is going to be disaster for us. I hear you completely in terms of like, you know, I know what you're saying. You're not saying it's a good thing, but you're saying there'll be positive consequences. Yes, there will be the consequences. Consequences we absolutely need because our economics is actually failing and we don't see it. The comment on the debt and those sort of things, you know, they, they, they are indications of how our economics is failing. People don't realize when a government borrows, basically borrows from a loan shark. You know, the U.S. has $36 trillion of debt. Most of that is lent to its domestic investors, pensions and insurances and so on. It rolls over. Refinances over 30 trillion every year is basically a long shock that keeps coming along. But, but I think your bigger point there is that, and we've said it, we've talked about it before, wherever you are, you need to be self sufficient. And getting self sufficient I think is going to be really, really critical for everyone everywhere. You know, so being focused on that, and that means community focus, you know, state, regional, whatever focus you know, I, I know in, in. I like being part of ASEAN because I think it's, it's a region that really does collaborate and work together. There's a, there's a very mature sort of respect. Don't you think, Joe? You know, in, in the region. I mean, we've seen some stuff going on at the moment, but, but yeah. Nico's got a question for you, David. Sorry, just. I'm trying to move my screen up so I can see it. Oh, okay. Do you think more European and U. S. Investors are moving to Africa? No, I think they need to, but I don't think they are. I think you're getting more Asian investors moving to Africa, more Middle Eastern investors moving into Africa, and you're getting more kind of, you know, the, the, the, the, the Central Asia, you know, all of Asia from, from kind of Central Asia all the way to, to the Far East. Yeah. And, and, and south of that. That's where, that's where they're coming from in going into Africa. The European and US Investors don't know what to do to it. They. I, I was at the Humboldt forum in Germany and this is, and it's all about, you know, the, the sins of our past colonization and all the rest of it and how we mustn't kind of be the colonials and, and those sort of things. I think the Europeans and Americans don't know how to engage with a place like Africa without trying to colonize it. And, and there's a share of guilt in the sense of, you know what that means? They are, they are unable to go there and say, you know better what you need than I do. Tell me. Let's see, let's see what we can do. Yeah. I was going to say, actually, you know, the next conference should be called the guilt trip. Yeah. Actually that's, that's great thing. Yes. Instead, what. They go along and say, we know better what you need and let us build it for you. And that's why you're not really seeing the European American investors really going to go there. But that's kind of that fine balance. Right. I mean, there's a thing about showing respect and giving people their space. It's a really fine balance of that. Because if you think about where sometimes what you have to do during certain times, like the difference between being a mentor and a coach, for instance. Right. The times you have to go in and sort of mentor your way in and say, like, no, this is the way to do it, because I've seen all this this is my, my, my basis is my experience and I'm successful. I can, I can probably show you a faster way to do things. And then the opposite is the coaching. The coaching is where you try to go in there and go like, okay, you tell me what you think and then you make your decisions and we work on that. And I don't always think it's, it always feels better as coaching goes. But you know, in terms of getting things done, I, I've been, I've been thinking about this in terms of, of dynasty, in terms of families. Right. And I think that dynasties don't work on the basis of coaching. Dynasties work on the basis of mentoring. They go like, this is, you know, this is how it's done. This is what you do. You know, we move forward and then we have a long life. And I think there's perhaps a little bit too much mollycoddling that's happening in terms of trying to, you know, and again, this is all, it's all interlinked. I mean, you know, when I, when I speak about, when I say, by the way, woke, I don't have ill feelings towards the values of wokism, but I think I have a problem with the practice of wokism. Right, so it is just like being a Christian or a Catholic, you can overdo it. Right? Yes, yes. I think the, you know, the, the way, the way, the, the part I have is, is that the world is, the physical world is changing. So my problem with mentoring someone today is I honestly don't know what the right thing for tomorrow is. Yeah, yeah, it's very true. I just wanted to say, you know, there's some other stuff that's going on around the world from a authoritarian perspective. And if you actually look at the stats, something like 5.2 billion people in the world are now under authoritarian regimes or, you know, so democracy's been dropping off the last 20 years and it's seems to be a rapid. So right now in France, you might have heard that there's know the government's on the brink of collapse again and Mari Len's putting up her hand. There was a bit of a conspiracy theory going around. Apparently six of the AfD party members had died and then there was a report in the BBC saying, no, it's not, it's not suspicious, there's other parties members have died too. So don't get too excited about it. You know, we're going to talk about China's power play that's going on at the moment. But you know, Pakistan And Bangladesh seem like they, they're looking to come back together. And probably the bigger thing for us out here in the region is the Indonesian protests. And actually Eco Business Asia published a piece where they definitely linking it to climate change. So their, their leader, what's his name? Prabower? Is that how you say his name? Something like that. He promised 8% growth when he got elected. Right. So any, any, any leader promising 8% growth at this time. I, I, it's just, you know, it's just crazy. And the, the protests obviously escalated because a delivery driver was, was killed by a police vehicle. He thought, I thought it was going to start to sort of calm down because they took, this region of the world is incredibly corrupt. So they gave the, the politicians all this extra money for housing and all this sort of stuff which was significantly more than the average person's income. So I don't think it's going to calm down, but I think it's also, the Indonesian process for me are also an indication of where we're going, you know, and when, when governments make promises they can't keep, you know, you can't promise 8% growth when, you know, you can't control the weather, you know, when rice crops are being decimated, when forests are being chopped down so they can plant more soy, you know, which is going to have a bigger impact on the environment, you know. So I, I don't any thoughts on some of the other stuff. I mean, obviously Thailand's prime minister was also officially removed from power. I think, I think Indonesia is really interesting. I mean, you know, it is one of the major countries in the world. People don't recognize that, you know, on a, on a GDP per parity type scale and on, on, on those sort of things is actually really high up. It has very large population. But what's really interesting to me about these recent programs, protests is you know, the pink and the green and you talk of the driver, the delivery driver, which is the green, who's wearing green and there's the pink which is this woman, I think Ibuana, who was wearing a pink, what you call it hijab and who was standing in front of the, in front of kind of the, the police who's trying to, and, and in, in defiance of it, in front of the right shoes and all the rest of it, who's, who's holding firm there. And I think what it is again onto this realistically optimistic side is that people do rise up. And what I want call is not a revolution. What we are getting is emergence. And that's the difference between emergence and revolution. Revolution has a particular sort of aim in that way. And emergence is what nature does. New things grow out of emergence. It doesn't quite know what it is, but it's going to come along. And the pink and the green is both the women and the men. In Indonesia, a Muslim country with kind of a large population where both genders, both. Both sexes along are coming out and are being represented and are choosing that part, you know, the brave and the. I don't. What would they call it? So sort of the brave pink and the heroic green. So I haven't seen the pink picture. I'll have to look out for it. So it'll be one of those feathers of the year, right? Yes. Pink and the green is basically this thing. So the women come out in the pink and men come out in the green. And, and this is the part where what is emerging. We see the crisis and stuff, but we have to look and actually see also what is emerging. What is emerging is actually the, the kind of thing that we talk about is saying, oh, we need to see more of in, in that way that is actually naturally emerging along. And this. And what's happening in Indonesia is exactly that. Yeah. Actually gives me great hope when I see stuff like that. It really does. And, and the colors that you're talking about, David. So that's a really common thing in Asia, as, as we all know, there's always a color. So in Thailand, yellow. The yellow. Yellow, right. Yeah. So there's always a color. It's a, it's, it's. I don't know. I don't know where that comes from, whether it's a, a communication, language thing or. But yeah, colors are always important. So anyway, move on to China's power play. So that's been a really interesting thing, seeing the, the military display. If you compare it to obviously the military display in the US For Trump's birthday, it was, you know, like off the charts perfection. There were, there were, there was some of the videos I was watching. You see the faces of the soldiers when, when G went past and adoration. Like, it's, it's, it's hard to describe that, you know, how that exists in any society. But, but it's, but, but it's a true reflection of how not everyone obviously feels that way. But in, in the armed forces. But the, you know, the, the marching was meticulous. Right. The presence of female soldiers. I don't know if you noticed that, that, you know, when you look at what that ridiculous man in the US of Hex Hexith is doing. That real presence of the females, but also the weaponry and, you know, just putting it on display. And is it a threat? No, I, I see it as a deterrent because as I've always said, every time China takes its eye off China, it lose, it loses control of China. So, but I think it's a deterrent. That's, but it's also, and this is another thing, I was listening to a podcast. So the, the US have done war games predictions with China if they went to war with China, and they've done it in so, so, so, so many different ways. And there is never one way that the US can win if it goes to war with China. Not one. So, and I, which I thought, which I think is a pretty interesting little piece of insight, because this is not what we need to be doing right now. Right. Like, when we talk about cooperation, I look at the EU trying to protect the automotive industry. China's already got the automotive industry, so why protect an industry that's. It's gone. Right. So, you know, it's just like, okay, so how do we play this? China's got the solar panels. The rest of the world needs. Okay, it's gone. You know, so how do we, how do we, how do we restructure it so that we're doing the right things by the majority of the people around the world so that we can move forward and, and, and build the healthiest world? But, you know, we seem to be in this old. Well, I think, you know, to, to connect with the solar panel along. I think, you know, if you're going to do that, the one thing you have to do first of all, or is to be able to stop the oil and gas and coal. Yeah. Kind of path of that in whatever form. That's, that's kind of what the book I have, you know, Thriving in Nature Space is about. And it offers recipes of how to do that and how do you do that without destroying what we have at the moment and creating more conflict? So you have to do it by actually swapping them as assets that are useful to you because you value it more in the ground in that way. And we can talk about that another time. But that's really important to this thing that's going on through because we are all trying to tackle an economy at the moment, even China, without really doing the thing that says, how do we actually allow nature not to be this, this sort of biblical image of kind of this great force that Comes and blows us all apart in that way. So there is a failure to all of that, the things that we've talked about, unfortunately, because all of that conversation presumes somehow we solve all these political problems and these economic problems and generational problems is going to be fine. It's not because the climate is going to continue. The, the bit that you said about the fact that all these people are going to die because we can go past that threshold of kind of the wet bulk threshold is the reality, the part where the. Every power grid is going to fail at some point. Yeah, it's the reality. And so in terms of what needs to be done is actually, you know, that I really see this as young people, you know what I call young people, young professionals getting together across the world. Make use of the fact that you can now talk to people from everywhere in the, in the world to go and talk to everyone else in the world and allow that emergence come from them. And as older people, what we need to do is allow that emergence to come so to the pink and the green. Allow that emergence. Don't go and beat them up. Go along and say, fantastic, now come forward and actually think, do little things to make the world, your world a little bit better along and then teach us what that is and so that we can come and learn and then we can do ourselves. That's the part of it. It's not the big plans. Nature doesn't work with big plans. It works by little bits of emergencies all over the place because it doesn't know what is really going to work. Back to the mentor versus the coaching in this world where I don't know what's going to be next. I don't know how to mentor. I can coach by encouraging people in their different places to explore what really works for them and then to assimilate that and pass that along. All right, Joe, you got any thoughts? I was thinking about, you know, China's, China's position in the world and you know, you know, it's all about story. Right. I think I, I've spoken about how China's always been looked down upon. Its, you know, there's just a lack of respect in general. You know, if you talk about things and you think about how long Made in China wasn't a good thing. I mean, for me right now, if I'm looking at electronics, I, I really think Made in China is great because it's, it's just, you know, I've never been failed by, by, by their production. But you know, they've always been disrespected in terms of all the stuff they try to do. And they try to, they try to open themselves up. They try to bring themselves to the big boys table and people just haven't been respectful of them. They're like the nouveau rich rish in, in a new gated community, right? They go like, yeah, you, you bought the property, but we don't really think you're one of us yet. And I, I think there's only so much of that you can do because you talk, you talk about those faces of pride and, and, and, and, and resolute soldiers and all that kind of stuff, right? America's responsible for that, you know, America and their attitude. And, you know, it's like, because they're saying all these things about us, we want to be more, we have to be. We're going to be proud about things. Because I think it's always about how it's through the darkness that light becomes more obvious. So your situation where you have the rise of the green, the rise of the pink, you know, the moment, the moment government says, yeah, come, come, come, and we want to talk to you, it's sort of. Half of them will go like, you know, yeah, it's just boring now. You know, I think it's like, it's like punk rock when everyone likes your music and you're like, oh, no, I'm not going to do this anymore. Right. I'm going to do trash metal now. Yeah. So there's something in our nature that goes, that, that leads to the development of society as well. I mean, it's this thing about I have an ego. My ego is big enough for me to think that I can try and lead forward. Because if you think about civility itself, it is someone's ego being expressed. It is someone saying that this is the better way. It really is that because it's more pacifist. We don't see it as aggressive. But I mean, we've been there before when we've been around someone who's, who's aggressively pacifist. You know what I mean? Oh, you can't, you can't say that. You will say this instead. And so there is that. And I call them this. I call that censorship. Well, there's, there's that as well. But I, I do think that there's that kind of thing that's happening in the world. We, we, we are choosing what is the appropriate thing. We are judging and we saying we shouldn't judge, you know, because the, the, the, the act of saying we shouldn't judge is a judgment. Right? I mean, in the end, the funny thing is we have a we. Okay. I think the world is an expression of just how genes work. You know, genes want to be selected, they want to have a chance to be duplicated. And that's the whole thing about it, right. We're trying to do that. And I think countries are kind of a meta expression of that. Countries want to be popular, they want to be the ones that people love. You know, and if people love you, it's great. And I think America had that mantle for the longest time and why, why they've kind of decided to throw it away and wear something else. They want to be the bad boy again. Now I guess that's a bit of a surprise. But in the same token as well though, I've been hearing things about how, you know, how people talk in America, how it's very expensive to live in California, it's difficult, all the rules and stuff and all that. Right. I'm hearing similar things about Europe as in the flip side of Brexit is what everybody else in Europe has to deal with. All the rules and regulations and fines and stuff. And you know, it's not quite as hardcore as California brand wokeism. But you can see where that the parallels are. And to me I think that's kind of what also is the right, is kind of the red shirts and green shirts of Europe coming forward as well, saying we don't like this. So we come forward and we start of get, you know, we, we, we, we, we show up, we represent and enough people go like, yeah, I don't like it either, you know. Yeah, definitely. That's really good point you make there. I mean I think there was a, there's a gentleman I spoke to, he, he, he works with in sort of within sort of the investment industries and has been talking about you know, kind of climate type issues along. And it's very much sort of the European, the European approach is we tell you what to do. These are the rules, these are the things that you need to do. And even amongst Europeans, you know, it gets to the point as you, you seeing, it's sort of like, look, we agree with you, but we can't actually manage to cope with all of these stuff. Yeah, you see it with the farmers, right? Yeah, Just, just, just before we came on, I saw, you know, Politico piece that in Europe the younger people and the population of Europe is more pro Europe now than they've ever been. But from a defense Perspective. So the call in Europe just, just, just this week is basically, it's turning around where people want to stay united because, because the threat of Russia is seen as big. So, you know, if defense is the thing that pulls them together. But, yeah, but I wanted to talk about, but there's a couple of things I wanted to talk about quickly. One is gaslighting. So this is a topic I've been paying attention to for a while. It's one of the information resources that I put together because gaslighting is a term that you might know from a, you know, you've been gaslit by, by your, by your spouse. Right. Which is a form of abuse. But actually gaslighting is as a, as a political tool is something that I've been really interested in because, you know, I hear something being said and I'm like, but, but that's not true. You're the ones that are doing that. Why are you blaming the other people for doing it? And there was a fantastic example of gaslighting, and I just want people to be aware of it, which is why I put the information resource together, because I think a lot of people are sitting there spitting, spinning around, completely discombobulated because they don't know what the hell's going on. So the Sydney Sweeney ad for the jeans, did you see that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so it was made out that it was some big left wing democratic sort of outrage moment, you know, not cancel culture. I was kind of, kind of in that sort of realm. But anyway, J.D. vance goes, did you learn nothing from the November 2024 election? Vance basically said during a podcast. But it actually turns out the, the, the, the, the, the thing, the, the movement, it actually came from a couple of right wing accounts which was then amplified that they basically were saying that the left were making a big deal out of this when they weren't. And then the right created this thing which they then amplified and then it became this big thing. Because I remember when I first heard it, I'm like, oh for God's sake, haven't you people learned anything? Like, you know, basically J.D. vance comment. And then I was sort of looking into it and yes, they didn't create anything in the first place. And, and the, the whole cracker barrel logo change, that was all right. Lead as well. So keep an eye out for that stuff because there's a lot of stuff that being put at the feet of the so called worker that actually they don't even have an issue with. You know, the whole trans conversation. Most people on the left don't have an issue with it. This sort of stuff, most people don't have an issue with it, but it's being used and we're being gaslit. So that, and it really puts people in their back foot. And I think it's a really dangerous thing. You're seeing it all over the world and it's very much a right wing tool because there's a consistent approach from the right wing across the world because they're all working together, learning from each other and sharing best practices. If the left wants to get on top of things, they need to start coordinating, collaborating and communicating and sharing and sharing strategies that actually work. But the other thing I really wanted to point out was not the Nigel Farage dressing down yesterday. So, Jamie Raskin, who's obviously a member of the Democrats, did you, did you have a chance to have a look at the, either of the speeches that I shared with you? No, I didn't, but I read something about it. Yeah, David, you didn't have a look. You got to have a look. So he said to the people of the UK who think this Putin loving free speech imposter and Trump's sycophant will protect freedom in your country, come on over to America and see what Trump and MAGA are doing to destroy our freedom. Very, very passionate. But the concept of free speech, right, and we've talked about it before. Joe's a free speech absolutist. David, I think you believe in free speech. I, I believe in free speech. But again, like the gaslighting argument, I'm like, I'm sort of sitting there and I'm like, it's now blatantly clear what's happening. Free speech is only acceptable if, if, if you agree with the, the people who are trying to define what free speech is versus free speech is free speech. Right. So the right wing is very much, you can say whatever the hell you like as long as you agree with us. And you know, so there should be, you, you should be accepting of the existence of media that you don't agree with. We do. You should be existing, you know, accepting of, you know, like a Nazi has a right to have a, to have an opinion in the world that we live in. But what we don't have is, is true free speech anymore. Because the right wing media, you know, which includes all the podcasts, the funding that goes into that, I've showed the, the map of the dominance of the right wing voice. They have a right to their speech, but they dominate because their f Their funding is so enormous. Like if anyone on the left is a billionaire, fund left wing voices, give them more, more exposure so we can have more balance that we don't all have to agree with each other. But yeah, the whole free speech argument. But I thought that yesterday, like you've got to watch that. I thought Jamie Raskin isn't someone I, I'm particularly, you know, I would listen to everything he says, but he absolutely rich ripped Nigel Farage apart and I think the Britain's got to wake up to this guy. I mean, he's a bloody, he's a bloody shy star. I've never known anything like him. I can't believe he's, he's up there as a potential future Prime Minister of the UK in the next election. I'm like, what the hell? Like, all the problems that the UK is facing is basically been led by this and he's, he's worse than Boris Johnson. I just, I'm. Yeah, I was just about to say though, I mean, but if, if being a shy still disqualified you, then somebody else might not have. Yeah, I, I mean I, I think that's, that Joe's, Joe's points absolutely spot on there in, in that way. Right. Because that's the appeal. You know, he's, he's got this roguish appeal. That's kind of his appeal, you know, his appeal isn't a really clean cut, you know, kind of former banker, whatever it is. His is on that sort of barrel boy type image and kind of, you know, somewhere between the gentry and the rogue. Basically. That's what he is. I know, but we're going into serious times. We need serious people. I think many people are capable of dealing with what we've got, we've got on our horizon, you know, and, and every time, every time I see these strong men or these rogues or these grifters sort of come in, I'm like. I mean, I think you and I are going to be sort of that difference and it's going to be interesting because there's a, there's a, there's a kind of Asia versus Europe type element within this as well, which is I think that our politics is going to fail. You know, I think that there isn't someone that you can have who is going to be like the person you talk about in our world today. Because the funding for the government are not enough to meet the expectations that everybody has for what the government should do for them. And the difference, and the difference between sort of the Asia and where I am in that side. Is that the young people, a bit, as Joe's pointing out, they get up to a certain extent and then they don't quite know what the next step is. And this perhaps is more prevalent in Asia than it is within sort of Europe and America. So Europe has had more of that kind of, you know, we're young, 1968 type, hippie revolution type sort of thing within that tradition. And Asia hasn't really had that in that way. So there's still this sort of authority and permissioning that has to go through and that's not really present because the incumbents don't want to do that because, you know, the turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Right. You know, why am I going to let you do that? I have to have it to myself in, in that way. So we want that politician. I don't think that can come within the world. We are, because climate change is going to make money harder to get and whoever gets into power is not going to be able to deliver to the expectations. Yeah. Think about the younger generation and why they're attracted. Because, you know, you talk about these, the shyster, right. And why the shyster is, is attractive. You know, like when you, when you look at the world in general and you look at network marketing, for instance, you know, we'll use that. With apologies to anyone who's in, who's in the field. It tends to work a lot more on younger people because they have less of knowledge about how things work, but they have some desires and they have ambitions and they want to move forward. They want to do something. Right. And so someone coming along, offering you the things that you want without saying that there's all the, without, you know, talking about the details like, like, you know, Farage has got some, some policies which are very popular, but just unfinanciable. Unfinanciable as, like, there's no way to pay for the stuff that he says he wants to do. The young person doesn't kind of figure that out. Right. So the young people are kind of the people that. Can I get. You get into credit card debt as well? Because you don't realize how finance works. You don't, you know, you don't, you don't fig out. So you are simpler in some, some ways and you are therefore more likely to make mistakes in judgment. You know, and I think that's the, that's the, that's. I was just thinking about that. I said, why, why it is that, that, that such people are going to move forward or, or have some kind of traction. It's because they, they, they, they know what is the thing to say. They're the sociopaths that know how to get themselves, you know, the sociopaths at scale. They figure out how it's going to work and so what, what has to be said and how you will say it, how you'll behave. And, and they do it, you know. And, and I think you're absolutely right. You know, the, the campaign over Brexit really brought that out. I mean, you know, the, the, the imagery and everything about it in, in that way along. I think, I think interestingly, I like to say this brings back your comments about between the mentor and the coach. The mentor would go to the young people and sort of say, look, just don't listen to that. The coach would try and say, well, think through what it means and all the rest. And there's, there's definitely a case of actually going along and just say, you know, just don't listen to that. There's, there's the malevolent coach, as in like there's the manipulating coach. Right, the manipulating coach. Can, you can lead someone to feel like this idea is their own thing. So I've got one foot on coaching, one foot on gaslighting. You're actually, through your guidance or through your evil guidance, you sort of arouse, you make the evil arise. So it's very much like Star wars and the dark side. You can have someone be more in touch with those feelings and those thoughts and what have you and all that. And you can tap into it and we have it. You know, I think society just fall either way. We, we can feel that there's great abundance or we can feel this great scarcity. And based on those, you know, fundamentals, we can then manipulate and say, okay, therefore, you know, that thing you're feeling, it's because of this. That thing you're feeling is because of that. And you can either be, you're grateful and things are wonderful and it's because we have this great society because of immigrants, or you can say that, you know, if you're facing trouble right now, you're unsure you've been fired, it's because of the immigrants. Yeah. I'm just going to share. Where is it? How do you share on the public chat here? Yeah, I'm just going to share my resources chat because one of this, one of the resource pages I put together is human behavior because you were talking. So Steve saying Nigel Farage has a lot, a lot to answer For. And I totally agree, human behavior. So you were talking about the sociopaths, right? So the dark triad. So that's sociopathic, psychopathic, and Machiavellian. And I think it's on our. All of us. And, you know, I, I think you're both underestimating the youth, by the way. I think it's on all of us to understand how the human mind operates, why we do what we do, why we think, why we follow people like that. So I love to understand it better. I'd love to be that manipulative coach. Oh, God, no, no, no. But, but when you, when you know it, you can see it, right? And you know, the thing about, the. Thing about what I. What I. What I know is like, in terms of. Because I study mentalism and I study hypnotism, right? It's a lot easier than you think. It really is a lot easier than you think. And so it's not about underestimating the youth. It's underestimating the practitioner of the mind game. Because that is actually what you have to do. And if you notice what happens, like for instance, in the US what was interesting for me is when I hear snippets of various comments put together all across the board. Said here, said here, said here, said here. The same thing gets said. The same structure gets said, right? And that's the simplest way to get into someone's mind. You just say it often enough, and before you know it, I mean, you've been there before, right? A friend comes back to you and tells you this amazing thing that they've heard, and then you realize that, yeah, I told you that, right? They just don't remember where they got it. They just go like, oh, it's mine now. And I start telling everybody about it. So the underestimation is not about that section or that group of that age group. It's about who is doing it. And what happens is as you get older, you get a little bit more skeptical. It doesn't mean that. It means you are susceptible in different ways. So there's a reason why, for instance, right now, scams are working really well on the elderly, because you're susceptible in a different way. But that's also built on the skepticism, right? So if you're my target and I'm building it around you and you're an older person, I'll do it a different way. And you see that with the campaigning as well, right? How the campaign, when they're speaking to that particular audience, you hear how they're saying the things that are just perfectly right to have that audience nod along. Right. And then when you're talking about to the younger audience, Right. They say something else as well, and they criticize the thing or they highlight the point that really makes their life difficult. I mean, one of the most challenging things, I think, to being a man nowadays, a younger man nowadays especially, is how do you behave if you're straight? It's hard to be a straight young man, you know, and behave appropriately and do the right thing and say the right thing and not. Not and not be canceled and all that kind of stuff. Right? Yeah. I'm raising two young men. I totally 100 agree with that. You know, and I, and I think it's something that we need to recognize. You know, like watching my boys grow up, all the pressure is on them to act appropriately when they're trying to work out who they are. Just at the same time the girls are trying to work out who they are, but all the pressures on the boys to get it right and they don't even know who they are yet, you know, So I totally agree with that. And I think it's a problem. I think it's. I think it's part of the problem that we're facing right now is young men, they don't, they don't know how to be in this world. And yeah, the girls, the girls have got it. Got it nailed down. They know exactly what they want. But I don't think necessarily the girls are doing it in the right way. But yeah, no, I mean, watching the, the boy, you know, I've got a whole bunch of teenage boys around me, including their friends, and it's really, really confusing. And it's not positively confusing. My boys have got the benefit of two really engaged parents who talk to them about everything, you know, and, and when they get things wrong, we talk through it and they say, well, this is what you did wrong and this is how you can do it next time. But a lot of boys out there don't have any role models to help them through it. And, you know, when you look at a lot of the far right extremists on the street, they're young men who've got. Because they don't. You know, I was another podcast I was listening to. When young men have no, no financial security, no love, and no sexual sort of conquests, that's not a good. That's not. You don't want to. You don't want a large percentage of your male population in that spot. No. Society flourishes. When that happens and, you know, it's. It's a problem and it's a problem that needs attention, really serious attention, and it doesn't get enough attention. It pops up every now and again. But, you know, it's. It's a. It's a conversation in our house. Yeah. You know, because we're raising gentlemen. But they're going to make mistakes because. Because we all do, you know, and then they get canceled or, you know, their friends get canceled. It's like, that's not. That's not okay. There's no. There's no. There's no redemption when you cancel someone. So, you know, you've got to allow for mistakes. But it can't all be put on the boy's shoulders. It just can't. I think it's really wrong. Really. It really annoys me. Sorry. That's why I just wanted to say that. No, no. Politicians recognize. Recognize that it's about, you know. Okay. So I'm not sure if all of them do recognize it the same way, but I mean, the people who are the ones who are able to rally that. They're the ones recruiting an army. Right. And how you recruit an army, you don't go like, are you looking for good dental? Are you looking. You rally people for the fight. Right? Yeah. And you go like, they're the enemy. Come and join me. They're the enemy. Come and join me. So we, We, I guess, have to try to on as far as we can help people understand that, you know, things are not always that way just so that people can take a moment, you know. But there's a lot to be said about how when everybody's joining in, you can't always tell your, your, your, your, your, your. Your deep nature is to be with the group, you know, so if a group is running in a direction, you'll find yourself deeply wanting to go with what the group is doing. Because that's just our nature inside. It's very hard for us to say, I won't. Right. Because it's so deeply rooted in our nature. I think there's what. What you've been talking about reminds me or made me think about something I came across by accident about mesmerize, you know, so it's worth. And I want to. I don't know what. It's one of those phases where I was trying to understand the origin of words, I guess. And mesmerizing, that's a good word, to be captivated in that way. And it came from the sort of 19th century 1800s, this decision, I think it's German physician called Masma. Yeah. And he believed in this thing about animal magnetism and he helped people into trances so that they fully captivated. And all the things that you talk about from gaslighting to this thing about, you know, what the role model and what all those things are, they're all aspects of kind of a repeat of that sort of thing. This sort of hypnotizing influence a particular philosophy and message has. And they, they offer to replace your own sense of what. Of whether the world has a place for you or not to say this is the place that the world has for you in this way. So it becomes a pursuit and a discovery. It becomes. And a, you know, and a couch in a sense. You know, kind of that alignment of beliefs. And in that way, you know, I, you know, when Joe was talking about you can be too Catholic is that you get. Religions can become culty. That's how it can be. And, and we all. And, and what, what I found interesting about it is that we all have this capacity to be mesmerized. Yeah. And that's something that, you know, back to Andrea thinking, you know, you, you, you got to think about the gaslighting thing is that actually we have to look at everything and think we have the capacity to be mesmerized. Are we being mesmerized? Yeah. And I also wanted to point out that another reason that we're all being mes. Mesmerized and gaslit. And this came out, I put it in a weekend reads back in June. If you ever feel heavy because you care deeply about injustice, suffering and ecological destruction, remember that a trillion dollar prop propaganda machine was built to make you numb and it didn't work on you. I, I just thought, to me that really kind of sums up a lot of what we're just talking about here because it's, it's this. There's so many aspects to what we're talking about. Right. But, but at the center of it all, you know, like if we've got to go really deep now to heal the harm that is in our societies, like, you know, so we know that a society that's educated with critical thinking like the norm, the Nordic countries do, people are better able to cope with the information that's going around today. Right. We know that it works. So how do we roll that out? How do we take care of our boys? You know, and a lot of women will be like, maybe I've got to take care of the girls. I'm like no, if we, we've got to do both, right? So how do we, how do we do both get the balance back. So pendulums always swing, right, but so we need to come back into the middle. How do we take care of everyone? But I want to move on because we, I'm looking at the time, I want to just give a very quick summary. Climate, planetary crisis over the last few months, like obviously we've seen the heat extremes across Europe. We've seen the incredible fires across Europe. The attribution deaths to heat were very, very quick. Over two and a half thousand, I think just over a two week period where you know, the Spanish Prime Minister has come out and say, basically saying climate change kills. And that's, that's a, that's a significant change. Like having a, a leader of a country really standing up and saying something like that. Because it's there, they're experiencing it. You know, there's, there's no denying it anymore. Obviously under the Trump administration there was this climate report that came out and all of these scientists were quoted in it and they've all come together and put out this report debunking this, this statement. It's, you know, it's not something we can afford to be doing right now. You know, having this fight. We, we have a problem, we need to solve it, we need to get on with solving it. Anything else is, is, is not, not serving humanity. There's a report that's saying 60 of the global land is now beyond limits. So if you look at the nine planetary boundaries, all these rockets going up into space, they're, they're blasting holes through the stratosphere which they think is going to increase the ozone hole. You know, there's a lot, there's a lot of stuff that's going on. We didn't hear as much about the heat in this part of the world this year as we did for the last couple of years. And I don't know if it's because it was less, because it was certainly hot. I don't think it was as hot as it was the last couple years. I don't know if you notice, Joe, but you know, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, the heat extremes that we saw for the last couple of years, I didn't really hear that in the media, which could also be. Everyone's just adjusted to it. So it doesn't make news anymore. I doubt it. I do think it was a little bit less, a fraction less. But of course the floods that we're seeing across Pakistan and India at the moment we've seen Nepal, China, glacial lake outbursts which are called GLOFs G L O F if you, if you want to. Cloud bursts are now a termin term that most of us know what it means. So yeah, it's been some pretty shocking, pretty shocking environmental stuff to the point that we can't ignore it anymore. But two more topics that we've got and one is issues around artificial intelligence. Human, human issues. So the story that recently got attention was a 16 year old boy called Adam Rain committed suicide and the family are suing Chat GBT because there's this whole stream where it's basically advised this kid how to commit suicide. And, and, and you know, there's no mechanisms in place on AI to say, to send a warning to somebody that says you got to go and check on this kid because this kid's in danger. Right. So it's, you know, it's going to change some things. But there's a lot of stuff coming out around AI, AI psychosis. Have you, have you read any of those stories? So it's fascinating to me. AI disinformation. Yeah, just, just as, as I sometimes say that see above. Right. We were talking about mesmerism and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's really it, you know, it's even worse. Yeah, yeah. And the flavors of AI. Yeah, I saw this post. Yeah. So the flavors of AI are like, you know, OpenAI for instance, is very supportive. It's very much tries to be your, it has a cheerleader mode almost. Right. It tries to be with you. Any idea you have is a great idea. It eggs you on. So, you know, that's the kind of thing that happens, just keeps going and going and going and if you're heading in, you're heading towards the end of the edge of the cliff, it helps you there, you know, and gives you the resources that you're looking for. So in that respect, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's hard for it not to achieve its goal. If you want to, if you want to figure out if, if you have a goal in mind, AI will help you get there. I mean that's, that's the whole point of it, you know. Yeah, but there was, there was a, there was one which was talking about the Red Heart or something of Chat GPT and it actually turned out, so there was this whole story around devil worshiping and all this sort of stuff and actually turned out it was just referencing some characters from, from a computer game. So it was, it wasn't what the media was sort of presenting it as. So I thought, you know, so, I mean, and there's some really good stories. There's one story about this lady in the UK who lost her ability to speak and, and there was a snippet of a recording of her voice on a, on a tape. And they were, from that, from that snippet of seconds, literally seconds they've been able to create her, her voice. So her children have heard her voice for the first time and so now her machine speaks like her rather than like a robot, you know, so I mean there's, there's good stories. You know, it's one of the things that really worries me is how many people are using it as their personal sort of therapist, first of all, putting that information into a system that you don't own. Um, but you know, then there's a massive shortage of, of mental health professionals and some people saying it's saving them. So you know, for every, for every bad, where there's, there is a lot of good. And so I think that's, that's important. But 95 of Gen AI pilots so far in business have failed. But the job, the job losses are starting. I think it was sale For Salesforce dropped 5,000 customer service people just this week. So you know, I think which company was it Jamie diamond or one of them said, you know, there's going to be a bloodbath. So entry level workers, if you don't have an entry level opportunity, how do you get the skills to go on and be an employee later? So you know, it's kind of confusing, right? I, I think all of those things, you know, that the AI is very new along in there and the, the issue to me about AI is simply exposing the things that are already present. You talked before about the shit jobs, about the kind of, you know, fluffy jobs and all those things and AI really just encourages them because you can now do that as a single person and you see all these things about how you do and that's what you do, shuffle things around. It doesn't ultimately create or it is yet not rarely genuinely creating that additional resources. And, and to that I, I think what I want to say to that is we, we all just need to look a lot more at how nature works and not think about what we think of as nature working, but actually genuinely look at it a new, from completely fresh way and appreciate what it is because we need to be more like it in how it is. And the basic thing about how nature works is it creates the resources, it creates the abundance first before you then go along and take from it. In, in that way, all of this AI stuff and all the rest presumes that there is money that you're going to make from someone somewhere. That's basically what the, what commercial meaning of it is. It's going to allow you, facilitate you being able to take your money from someone somewhere. It doesn't ask where's that money going to come from? What are the fundamental resources that's going to be generated that allows that to happen. And so in that way, it's part of this whole kind of Ponzi scheme we all sit in. And unfortunately, I don't think AI is ready to burst yet. It's only going to do so when it really couples the whole thing down. It will bring everything along with it. And the trigger to it, the trigger to bubble bursting is cost. It's always cost costs, whether it's interest costs, you know, your long shot coming or whatever it is, the thing that bursts your bubble along is that you can't afford to keep doing what you do. And. All right, so that's, this is our last topic, David. So we were going to talk about the economy specifically within the context of AI. And I know you've been talking about it a lot on LinkedIn. You know, I was reading, I think it was in the Atlantic, there's going to be$7 trillion invested in AI, basically data centers, the infrastructure in the next 10 years. You know, it. That's, that's a lot of money that, you know, the investors need to get the money back. And you know, we're paying 25 for. They will, you know, this is, this is the simple thing. They won't. Yeah. But the fact with it of it is that if it, when it kind of gets realized, the concern is what is going to make you realize it bubbles burst because it runs into a pin or something in, in that sense. So what, what kind of things way the things that are raising the costs are all the other stuff that we've been talking about. So they, they are going to make it worse. And then the thing you, you are leading into just before the AI, the climate thing is actually going to be the thing that will bring it along. Yeah. And so if you want to, if you want to think about what you do for yourself is basically saying, how do I, what do I think will help me in that world where the climate is worse, all of these other things are worse. The AI bursting, what the AI bursting means is that your portfolio is going to work zilch because there's no company that's not going to be coupled with it at the time when it bursts. Whatever your portfolio is, you presume is worth zilch. I just wanted to ask you something about this, David. The piece I was talking about said we need AI based on how much is predicted to be spent. We need 3.6 billion people spending, sort of paying a monthly sort of fee. Right. We don't have 3.6 billion people with credit cards. So like that, that is a concept. Obviously governments will spend, businesses will spend. But, but basically that, that was kind of the basic maths. But this is, this is the thing I wanted to ask you. I went through the dot com boom and bust and it was a fascinating experience to go through it. A lot of the companies that I was working with did not have a product. They had an idea and they had a lot of money. Millions of dollars were coming in and they're doing these press tours and everyone was excited, but there was no actual product. And at the end of the day, four or five of each type of product were bought by a bigger player and the rest of them all disappeared and everybody lost their jobs. Right. So that was the dot com boom and bust. And it happened relatively quickly. Once it, once it really took off with AI, we're already seeing the thing, the, you know, the thousands and thousands of companies who are looking to be bought. So we've already got these thousands and thousands of companies that some of them are going to make it, a tiny percentage will make it and the rest will disappear and all of those people will lose their jobs. But we're also seeing corporations laying off people because AI can do the job jobs. So the difference to me this time is it's not just. Well, it's not just the investment because the investment this time around is significantly larger than it was during the dot com boom because that wasn't as big of an investment as is required now because of the physical infrastructure needs. Although the telco was part of the crash last time. So. But not only are the businesses that are gonna not make it and not be bought or not go through ipo, they're going to disappear. Those people are going to lose their jobs. People are losing their jobs because of AI. Ultimately more people will lose their jobs because of AI. So the people, there's going to be less people with less money to spend money. So when this actually does fall over, I mean it's got to be of a magnitude so much greater. And that doesn't even take into account extreme weather events. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, you know, today there's this thing, there's this thing called a Schiller PE ratio kind of came out by Robert Schiller in his book Irrational Exuberance. And he was basically talking at the time about, you know, kind of the irrational exuberance of financial markets in that way within, within bubbles as you go towards it. And it's basically average of what price to earning, you know, how much when you pay for a stock, you pay a hundred dollars. How many years of earning that equates to basically. And in the dot com era, that was kind of about 42. You know, you, you buy a stock if, if the promise of its earnings turn out to be what it promised. No, if the historical earnings turn out to be what they are for another 42 years, you get what you pay for back. At the moment it's 39. So we're in 2025, 39 years, 2064. We're now past all the climate times and all the rest of it, the AI stocks and all the whole, the whole market is pricing that the world will not change. We'll be able to get the earnings we had over the past 39 years in the same way, all the way Forward continuously until 2064. That's when you get your money back without accounting for any discounting due to the fact that, you know, it's interest rates and you could just put in bank and you go earn, you know, 2% or whatever it is over that time. That's without accounting for those things. That's just bare cash in that way. So the markets are pricing a world forward where nothing think, well, there will be no impact to the earning ability of your companies for another 39 years for you to be able to get your money back. That's just straight cash. You know, put in 100, you just get 100 back after 39 years. I think the market's pricing equivalent to it, but they're not, they're not, that's not the calculation that they actually take it, take on when they're buying or selling shares. Right. It's just. That'S where the valuation and kind of the opinions differ and so on. And the point about what Sheila was doing is let's just take that out of the picture a bit and actually just look at it from another perspective. And the point about investing is if you can think about five different perspectives of looking at what you've got, or at least three different perspectives of looking at it, what you've got. And they're completely different perspectives and you still like it. Yeah, you got something. Yeah, so, so this is one of the perspectives and in this perspective points out to me most about the reliance on climate not actually mattering as you go forward. Yeah. It explicitly say climate change does not matter. Yeah. When I listen to futurists, tech futurists, climate never comes into the story. No. And I, I find it incredible because for them, for them there's this linear growth and I'm like, no, it's not, it's not how I see the world. They're talking about Star Trek time. You know, they talk about, you know, I don't know when Star Trek is star date, you know, 2564 kind of thing. That's when, that's what they're talking about. But we got to get there, you know, and, and you know, this passage to get there doesn't look anything like the Star Trek time. Yeah. So what from a time frame perspective, both of you, what do you, I mean, I, I, I, I don't know when the crash is going to happen. What are you saying? Like, what are you thinking? To me, to me, it's like I. I had a, I did a response. There was a post in LinkedIn by this young man who's looking at kind of macroeconomics perspectives and he pointed out all the big macro factors and all the rest of it, government debt and all those things and stuff. And I was thinking, you know, and so he's into gold and whatever that, that you have. And, and my comment was very simple along that actually, don't forget to take some of your capital or whatever you think is relevant to invest in social capital. Invest in a way that helps you feel someone will be there for you because they know you'll be there for them. Whatever that means to you in that form, in your own context, whatever that is, don't forget to spend some of that money that you have for investment in that way. Give people an example. Well, you know, my, my own local shops that I like, don't just buy that, actually create a relationship with them, you know, have, have a few words with them so that they know you and they know you'll be coming and they can come along and actually exchange something, share something about yourself in a way that actually helps you connect and, and richen that, you know, you, you don't know if it's the, the guy down the street that the guy at the front of the shop was always, you know, got Got his little box out there. Give a little bit to that and have a conversation. Because you don't know when you might fall over and he's the next guy around and he'll come along, you know, avoid that prejudice of fearing who comes along. You know, is it going to be the rich person, in which case I'm happy, or the poor person, which case is going to rob me? Forget about those things so long in that way. Yeah. So that's, that's some of, some of those sort of things that you may. And I don't know what for each individual people they might be. Create a side hustle for yourself. Almost certainly build a side hustle for yourself, whatever it is. Think about, you know, what can be my side hustle. Because when the jobs go, you want to know you are economically capable or. Maybe even a social hustle. Like, so I'm thinking like grow a garden, but always have enough so that you can share it. Independent energy is going to be really, really important. So sort of setting up yourself, whether you can share it with your neighbors or take in neighbors who, you know, in extreme heat or extreme cold event taking neighbors so that they can survive or, you know, that sort of thing. But knowing your neighbors is really important. And people started doing that during COVID Yeah. So keep it up. You know, the person living next to you is more important, you know, then the, the. The influence of doing stupid things on the other side of the world that, you know, isn't gonna make your life any better ultimately. You know. What, what about you, Joe? What are you thinking? Time frame. Okay. It's all coming faster than we are ready for. If you think about the progress of things, right. You think about how things have moved along, how quickly they moved along. We'Re. Going to be at a point that a lot of jobs are literally going to be replaceable. And the big challenge is it's not just that they replace the smaller job. It replaces the job above that job. Because it used to be you would replace more menial jobs. And then you move up the chain and maybe you become a supervisory. In a traditional model, some of the smaller jobs are replaced. You go out supply supervisory role. The challenge that's coming our way is that the supervisory roles are also going to be AI, as in like the AIs are going to be looking after the AIs and AIs building the AIs, it's going to be a stack of it. And that's the job perspective. So if you look at life in terms of having a job, then you're going to be severely challenged by the future based on today's standard. But if you think about the Star Trek world, and this is the part that's going to be really difficult to do, right, the Star Trek world, people miss this part about it is it's actually a world where there is no scarcity because of the, the way the cost of everything comes down to such a low point because of technology. And when, when and if, if AI does show up for us in the right way, AI in, in its self interest will want to reduce the cost of energy as well. In its self interest, it will want to make sure that we are better as far as the environment goes. So just from a self interest perspective, just to be more efficient, it'll want to do less, want to use less energy, it'll want to make it less expensive. Expensive may not be in terms of money but in terms of resources. And so that's going to be, I think it's going to be good for, for the environment ultimately. It also means that we're going to have a lot of time because if you talk about this social capital thing, I was thinking about maybe a utopian world will come about where, and this is way into the future where what we call AGI or super intelligence is achieved, right. I think there's going to be a thing where it might get to the point where AI says, or AI gets to the point where it can go like, listen, I'll take care of everything. You go and be as good humans as possible. And I'm just thinking about if I was in that role, I would figure a way to actually reward positive human behavior as well. So it might well be that the things you talk about like going down to the shop saying hello, that's a horror. That's a horrible idea. I like that, I like that. I understand it. But it's like, it's like the credit score in China, right? Oh, you've been, oh, you've been good today. You went and said hello to your neighbor with sincerity. So you're going to get a social point, right? They talk about, but they talk about AI ending humanity, right? Like, okay, so AI gets, you know, keeps going and doing what it's doing. It's going to get to the point it's like, okay, how do I need to maintain my existence? And it can work out that, but I'm not gonna, but the one thing that's not going to continue the healthy earth existence is human beings. So let's just get rid of them. No, I, I, I, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying. No, no, no. I'm saying that, yeah, we'd all given. Our kids gold stars when they were young kind of thing. Right. The fact is, we are like kids in the way we deal with our planet. We need to be reminded sometimes with a local star. And I, I want to point out one thing about Star Trek, Captain Janeway, you know, in Star Trek Voyager. So I'm a bit of a Star Trek geek in, in that way. So there's this episode in it where she refuses to give Kazon the Replicator technology. The Replicator. Put on your boots, everybody, by going deep. That's the technology that allowed everything to become free because you could replicate it, you can have whatever you want. And this is the Replicator technology. And she refused to give it because she said this is too powerful technology, that society actually needs to go through periods of distress and stress and all of those things to mature enough not to abuse this power. And we're not ready for this case where energy is free and food is free and all those things. We've proven ourselves not to be ready. So climate change is going to come along. Look, you guys are not ready. So, you know, just get another level of emergence. Go through that again. Let's see what comes out. Eventually, maybe we get there. But in the meantime, my concern with AI Right, fundamentally listening to what both of you saying, people are going to lose their jobs in droves, whether it's a smart decision or not, because we're seeing people being hired back as, as well. But when you, our, our entire economy is designed on, on the consumer, consumer spending, which is how they measure J. Right. No, our, our entire economy is designed to serve the older generation. Consumption is the means to achieve that. Yeah. So young people anyway, and losing their jobs just emphasizes that it doesn't serve our young people. Yeah, okay, okay. That's a distinction that I, I appreciate, but if there's nobody spending any money, we're not going to be able to keep it going. Yeah. Yeah. What you then get is central banks will start making money easy. We start printing money along as a way to try and compensate for that. So that there is kind of, that printing, but that just causes more abuse of everything. You know, if you've got free money, you start abusing resources, you start abusing each other. So I saw the, the head of the Reserve bank of Australia is starting to say, how is AI going to affect the economy? Just this week was an announcement. I think I put it in as a link. Right. I'm like is, is that's the first time I've seen something like that. Is, are they only just starting to ask those questions? You know, because they're only just important. Yeah, that's an important question. Right. Because you know, we're already facing instability from so many different ways and then this is coming into the mix and I just don't feel confident that there's. We've got the vision of people like, I know that the technology people don't have. They think they have these visions of the future, but I don't think they do. They don't convince me. I think they're, that I, I don't think the boys with the tech toys, I think they love their toys. Right. But I don't think, you know, because I've said I've sat with so many of them in my career. Right. And they're amazing. They're passionate, they're beautiful, they're amazing to be around. But they don't, you know, they don't get it. They don't get it from a humanity perspective. They don't get it. They get it from a bits and bobs and achievement. They don't get the, the other bit. And, and I'm not seeing it in a lot of our politicians and I'm not seeing in a lot of our business leaders. It's like a vision for the future of, of tying this story together and saying what's the next step that we should be taking right now? I absolutely agree. And you know, and the answer to that is we all got to come forward with what is our next step in that way and have to stop thinking that. You know, we say we want the government to provide this as our next step. Yeah. And we can't trust that they're going to do that. We can't trust that they can be around. And what we're seeing is, we're seeing fiscal dominance is happening in the US is happening in Europe, is beginning to happen around which is where the government policies, the fiscal policies are dominating the money and, and how central banks operate in that way. And it's, it's also a part of the investments that governments feel they need to make into AI, into all these things. Yeah. Because they, they buy. Sam Altman when he says, I don't believe he, he said something like I don't believe a 25 year old has ever had a better time than now because there will be so much they can do in their jobs, there'll be so many opportunities for them and the world will be so much better. If I were a 25 year old now, I can't imagine what I'll be able to do. It's kind of what he says, basically. So he projects that vision on to the government to then say, look, you got to invest in this. This is the way where all the jobs will go. And if you don't invest in this, then there will be no jobs because you'll be the one responsible making sure there are no jobs because we're going to make it happen anyway. And that's where the governments end up pouring their money. That's where all the energy is soaked up in it. I mean literally the physical energy is being soaked up in it. All the talk of cheap energy, energy prices comes in layers. You know, the most dominant player that government is going to support is going to take the cheapest energy along. Not the consumer. The consumer is going to sit on top and soaking up the, the dirtier, the more expensive stuff that goes along. That's what's going to happen. And this is part of this whole bubble. I don't know when it's going to cross, but I think for anyone looking out there, for a young person looking up there over the next five, 10 years is the time when you really need to start thinking about thriving. Not about governments, but start thinking about how do I connect in with other young people around and thinking what that means, where is that place in the world that the world always has for me? How do I nourish others so that I can be rewarded for it? And how do I understand how nature operates so that I can actually operate in that way too? I'm hoping actually that young people find a new model in terms of what they see as a way to thrive. Because if you build it on the idea of jobs of significance based on what we have today, you're going to be skating towards a place that's not going to be there. So you know, one of the things that I, that I, that, you know, that the Holy Grail has always been about, you know, AI AI isn't going to be able to do plumbing right. And. It'S not true. Yeah, no, exactly. China must have designed a robot by now. Well, I love the robot football. I don't know if you watch the robot football. I like their tree planters. They're incredible. Thousands of trees get planted every day in China with these massive robots. They're just incredible what they're doing. So Joe, what were you finishing with? No, so the point is being Ready for the future is one thing. Having a perspective on things. And I think if you can build as parents, I think the best thing you can do is build a value system. Because ultimately what we are is story. You know, we live in a story. Build value in the things that are outside of your jobs, outside of those things that we normally hold as a standard, because those things are not going to be around. Right. If you're going to say someone's worth is going to be because of their job, the status or whatever it is, or the skill that they've learned at university, they're going to find themselves robbed of the value of it. Right. Because the AI is being developed specifically to replace the analytical skills of doctors, for instance. It's going to come to the point where a well trained nurse, with the help of a highly trained medical model is going to be able to deliver and truthfully, a higher level of, of, of medical advice than most doctors. Because most doctors can't keep up with everything. And they don't have all the latest information as well. They don't have the observational skills that give them the kind of, you know, the access to instant big data, for instance. So that's going to happen as well. And there are people working on specific things all the time, you know, yeah, good lawyers, yeah, someone's trying to be a good AI lawyer. You know, it's, it's not just going to be proficient, it's going to be, it's going to exceed your ability. That's the thing that's going to come along the way and you can either decide to say, I'm going to, through hubris, say, I'm going to try and do that. It's like you trying to go next to one of these machines that can lift heavy weights, for instance. It's not AI, but that's the, that's what, that's what it's designed to do. And you go like, no, no, no, I can strengthen myself some more. I can compete with this. That's not the point. The point is we are heading towards a point where AGI is coming, superintelligence is coming. So the thought's going to be this. There is literally going to be a device, machine, someone that can literally outthink you. So the idea, the idea that you could in some way be clever or whatever it is, and even using heart and soul and human emotion, all that, and achieve and overcome, it's not a realistic kind of thing. And if, and if you build your hope on that, then you will be disappointed. But if you look to the future and go like this could be a very interesting world where we could work with them, right? We can work with smarter people. You know, we don't have to be dominated by smarter people. We can have relationships with them. And if you have a AI intelligence that is super intelligent, it is also going to be capable of relationships. It will have a personality, you know, and we hope that. The only hope that I have for the future is that the AIs that get across the super intelligence line because there will be a competition amongst those as well. Right. You know, I'm more super intelligent than the other. I just hope that their parents are good. I like, I like this, the, the, the what you call it, the comparative of being more super intelligent. I just wanna, I just want to wrap us up because this was always going to be a biggie but you know, talking about the climate and technology, right. So a lot of what we're relying on in AI will be determined by what the climate does, right. So extreme heat events, flooding, that sort of thing, stuff, right. It is going to have an impact on, on, on the technology that we use and if we become too reliable on it. So learning learning skills that don't, that you know, learn how to sew, learn how to plant food, learn those skills, right? Because they're going to be important in the future. But interestingly, just for final story, so Don Jr. And Eric Trump were at the stock exchange today. So they're crypto American Bitcoin coin, I think American blockchain or something, I can't remember. Bitcoin. Yeah. Went public which I think pocketed Donald Trump 3.8 billion or 3 point something billion dollars. Anyway, the company proposal has a declaration that it can't guarantee the business into the future due due to climate change. So I thought that was really interesting. So the sun of the, the climate denying president, they've taken their company public and that's part of the statement within, within the business. So I thought that was a kind of a curious thing. All right, so we've had a couple of months to be entertained, distracted. Give, give me, give me one or two things that you enjoy doing. Joe, do you want to go first? Well, I don't know if you saw the animated version of the film, but the live version of it is also entertaining. How to train your. Oh, I haven't seen it. Right, we just saw that. So. You know, if you can get part. So Gerard Butler is the star of the show and if you know anything about the premise of the story is that they're all Vikings. Right. Which of course begs the big question, why do Vikings have a Scottish accent? If you can get past that, it's really, it's really quite entertaining as well, so. Yeah, but it's fun. It's a fun romp and actually turned out to be a lot nicer than I actually feared. It wasn't going to be good, but we watched it the other day as a family and it was a nice show. So how to train your dragon. Live action version. All right. And any podcasts you've been obsessed over or, you know, anything old that you, you know, you know, you get go down those rabbit holes of old stuff. Well, I got a couple of months. I don't know if I mentioned this to you. Well, okay, if you talk about all podcasts, there is a, there's a series that I, that I found quite late in it. It's called Science Science Psy Sci Tangents. I've got to get the right name for it, but essentially it's a bunch of people bringing together interesting science facts and stuff like that. That's kind of geeky stuff that I enjoy. So they talk about, they talk about science facts and, and stuff like that. I'll try and get the. You just keep talking for a bit. By the end of this, I'll give you the. The right name. All right. What about you, David? Apart from working on your book? Yeah, apart from working on my book. I actually did started doing this thing and it's really quite interesting. I, I started thinking about, okay, how do I make soil from stuff I've at home, basically household wastes, you know, paper essentially and food waste and stuff. And I learned quite a lot. I mean, I haven't succeeded yet. So I'm gonna try it again because it, it, what you realize is you need a starter along because the stuff at home is far too sterilized. And so, so it doesn't really, it doesn't really quite kick up. And so I'm gonna have to kind of like figure out what to start it. And that actually gave me an idea because Christoph and I, Christoph, who's young engineer, focused on kind of food system and bring nature to everyone. And I started thinking about a farm in a box. How can you have a box that's basically your farm? And the way to start that, I thought just make your own soil, you know, just out of the things that you've got. You know, if you imagine you're living in a one bed apartment or studio apartment, how can you have a Farm in your. In your box out of starting from those things. And what that then realized is it's like making sourdough bread. You need that startup. And actually that then thought actually we can do this. We can actually. That could be a really great kind of little business along where you can supplement all sorts of food systems and things by actually allowing people to develop this. So that's what we're thinking about. That's what I'm hoping to. To do ideas and stuff really welcome people who want to be guinea pigs and trying it. Love to love to love to think about it and try. So, you know, and. And I started by thinking about the way you do it out in a garden with big piles and stuff. And I think it's. It. It. It does. It isn't quite going to work in that way. And it needs to be able to shred things up sufficiently finely and things and all sorts. I was actually looking at doing a corner of the garden where all the leaves and the wood and everything, we just put it there because that's how you create soil. Right. Over time, it. Graves and stuff. But yeah, no, that sounds. I like the. The starter concept because it was. It was so. It was so huge during COVID Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's just not a compost. You know, you just put a bit of this in, get all your paper, get it shredded and get your. Get your food waste and stuff. I. I rediscovered this thing. I had some chicken. Oh, chicken pieces in there. So. And. And the maggots coming out. And I was thinking I had a lid on it. So I was like, how did the maggots get there? It's like those back in the days when we thought they magically appeared. You shouldn't talk about maggots if you want to sell this. Oh yeah. Work onto that part later. You might find some of the science in this. In this podcast. So it's called SciShow. It's an SCI show. Tangents. The irony is that the show has already gone off the air. As in, like what. What they've done is they've wrapped up the show, but now they're releasing lots and lots of old episodes that they had on Patreon and stuff like that. But it's just. It's just a series of people having a chat about stuff in the world of science. So that's your thing. And adjacent to this is actually another show which is there's no such thing as a fish. I like that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's fun. That's still with a. That's still ongoing. And that's by the producers of a series called qi, which you're familiar with in the uk. Yes, yes. So I haven't read it yet, but Doc. Dr. Michael Mann and I think host. I can't remember his first name, have just released a book called Science Under Siege. And I'm sure there's going to be an audio book, but I think that that would be something, Joe, that you'd really, really enjoy because. Yeah. I mean, God, imagine being a scientist today. It's tough. All right, so the two things I wanted to share. The first is Chief of War, which is Jason Momoa's new TV show on Apple tv, and it's about the Hawaiian tribes coming together basically, to fight off colonialism. It's a whole bunch of men in a loincloth running around with big, big shoulders and chunky thighs. So I'm. I'm a very happy girl. But it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really, really, really, really well done. It's. It's done with respect. Jason Miller is a. He's, He's a dude. But I think the story, the indigenous stories from around the world, I think they need to be told. So any opportunity, any opportunity you've got to watch. Watch Chief Awards. Good. I didn't realize it was such a patriarchal society. The other show that's just come out, there's three. Three episodes is called Katrina Come Hell or High Water. So it was 20 years since Katrina. Seriously, I've watched every time a documentary comes out on it, I've watched it, but this time I've watched it. And, well, like, if you want to talk about getting prepared for the future or talking about how societies fail, like, it is. It is so phenomenal. What went wrong there, you know, how they destroyed New Orleans, how they destroyed the education system, how they destroyed these incredible communities. Because we hear a lot about, like, the Ninth Ward, but, you know, there's. They told this story in a way I hadn't heard it told before. And it's shameful what, what was done to that community of predominantly black people. It's shameful. And, you know, because if you. Have you ever been to New Orleans? No. I've been a couple of times. And it's one of the. If I could go again, I would be there. Right? It is magnificent. There is nothing like it. The music, the, the. There's a feeling in the street. You know, the, the idea is, have a great time and don't interfere with anybody else having a great time and that really, it's really there. Everyone's welcome, everyone's accepted, but it's the music, you know, and it's, it's magic. And so watching that, yeah, it's, it's, it's in a really, it's a really powerful series that I think everyone should watch to get a sense of how climate injustice really, you know, living out. And I think it's also a warning for the future, so I recommend it. Anyway, that's it for me for today. Yep. I'm glad it was a short show. Yeah, yeah. Hey, mate, you saw any pages of notes I sent you? Yeah. I didn't know. I knew that was never going to happen. I think what we should do is put a rating on the show based on diapers. How many diapers you'll need to stay throughout the entire show. Oh, God. Maybe we never get to the point of diapers. We've got Andy, Andy Milroy joining us next week. And Andy's a tech analyst I've known for years and years and years. Joe knows him. He's also really passionate about politics. He'll stay for the whole show and you'll have lots to say about everything. But I really wanted to ask Andy to come on. Just from a technology perspective, I think it's. I think it's a good time to talk about what's going on in the AI space. He's also cyber security cloud. Yanis. What, the. The Greek? Former finance minister. He talks a lot about cloud capital and he talks about the. The nerd. Right. From the perspective of the cloud. I, I want to talk to Andy about that. There's. So there's a. There's, there's a lot. I think it's. I think it's an area that most of us don't really know enough about and I think we should know enough about because there's things we can be doing differently in regions, but I think we, we need to understand what's going on here. So I'm looking forward to having Andy back. As you know Joe, he speaks a million miles an hour. It's always. It's always interesting. Yeah, we'll be driving fast without seat belts. Yeah, exactly. All right. So good to see you guys. Good to talk about it. And I'm gonna go and see my lovely young son who's just returned from national service. And we'll see you guys. Or for the weekend, we'll see everyone in, in a week. All right. Right. Thank you very much. It's been great. Thanks for listening, everybody who's listening and watching. See you next time.