Climate Courage: getting past powerlessness

When we speak to people about the planetary crisis, the most common response is a feeling of powerlessness. Many tell us they don’t know what to do or where to start, which often means not doing anything at all, and this just adds to the feeling of powerlessness. This is a growing challenge across the world, as more and more people become aware of the crisis we are in - from Taree in Australia facing catastrophic flooding, to millions suffering unliveable heat in India, Pakistan and Iran, to extreme heat events in Iceland, or across to Brazil where more floods have destroyed crops which will ripple out and have a major impact across the globe. 

In the face of so many extreme weather events, it’s hard not to feel hopeless and powerless. But there is much we can all do, and the middle class claiming our power in this time of geopolitical chaos is probably the best way to help our mental health and the planet. Whatever we feel about the future of our species, it’s time we try with all our might to overcome - for our families and all life on earth. However, we must also acknowledge the severity of the challenges we face. We do not have an easy journey ahead, so developing our resilience is critical. 

This is how we will start the show, with clear actions and questions we should be asking ourselves, and then we will discuss the major news around all aspects of the planetary crisis, including, but not limited to, the latest on the AMOC, the fact 1.5°C of warming is already too hot for the polar ice caps, global oil demand – is it increasing or decreasing?, Planetary Nationalism and why that might not be a great idea, the catastrophic tornados in the US including a lack of FEMA support, food security and more. 

We always aim to cover a lot and never make it through all the news, but we give it a go, so why not come and join us, Friday 23rd May – 8am UK, 2pm TH, 3pm SG, 6pm AEST – and work out your steps, so you can stop feeling powerless.

Climate Courage is a livestream, held every two weeks and is co-hosted by Andrea T Edwards, Dr. David Ko and Richard Busellato. On the show, we cover critical topics across the full spectrum of the polycrisis, in everyday language, and we go big picture on the climate crisis, while also drilling down and focusing on the actions we can all take to be part of the solution. Whether individual action, community action, or national/global action - every single one of us can be part of ensuring a live-able future for our children and grandchildren. We owe them that!

#ClimateCourage #RethinkingChoices #UncommonCourage 

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to Climate Courage. My name is Andrea Edwards. My name is David Coe. And at the far end as usual, you have me, Richard Bussalatto. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. And so we've got, Singapore, England, and France represented today. Is that right? That's correct. So is it

09: 0:20

00 in the morning for you, Richard? Yes. Yes. It's a it's an hour sleeping compared to normally. So always welcome with open arms. The 7AM? Yeah. I feel sorry for you when the sun's still rising. Absolutely fine. It's a good way to kick off your Friday morning. Yeah. But I I have noticed that a lot of climate activists that I try and recruit onto the show that are in The UK don't really wanna do the

7AM time slot. 09: 0:45

00 in the morning. So must be the bankers in unit. Yeah. Much, much easier to get the finance people coming in at that time. Exactly. Much, much easier. Yeah. Versus the beast. For you in the sunset. Alright. So today, we're gonna cover a lot of stuff. Obviously, we're gonna talk about the news. But what we wanted to do is so this week, I published, last week, I published a piece which was inspired by a lot of conversations I'm having on another day with the weekend I'm having. And, no matter what I do or how much something something my friend's just talking to me. No matter what I do, no matter how much I share and, you know, for years and years and years, I've been sharing tips and ideas and what you can do and how you can do it. And every single conversation starts the same. What can I do? And then there's a a powerlessness in that. It just that sense of, well, I'm just one person. How can I make any difference? And we need to get beyond the powerlessness, and, we obviously need a billion people acting. So it's a big number, but, like, we've discussed, we get 1,400,000,000 Catholics changing. That's that's a pretty good start. Right? So Yeah. You know, perhaps it's the religious institutions that'll lead the way. Yeah. And the and the pope's looking good on that front. So I published this 54 page, PDF on on LinkedIn, and I put it in a blog as well. So I'm just gonna share it here. So the first thing is, you know, that sense of oh, let me get rid of the banners. If you're listening on the podcast, you're not gonna see the visuals, but it won't matter. Alright. So we've got some voices in the background somewhere. Probably my neighbors. Okay. Alright. Maybe we'll just get maybe just mute if there's a bit noisy. Alright. So I'll do that. The the mess the message is I can't deal with the can't deal with all the bad news, can't deal with anything, completely overwhelmed. It's all too much. And, it's a it's a very disempowering place for people to be. So, David and Richard, are you hearing this as well? I think it's gone somewhat sort of like what what you do as a result of that is you, you know, you blank out. So there's a lot of that. Yeah. That's true. So it might Definitely. There is an element of that that people sense, I'm not gonna, deal with it because it overwhelms me. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And and and that's makes the powerlessness feel even worse. Right? Yeah. So the the first message is, you know, everyone we've we've just gotta breathe. We've gotta you know, this is not an easy time. All of us know it. We're we're we're listening to the world news, the crazy stuff that's happening. No question about it. So, you know, just get we've gotta get ready for this. You know? And so, what we've always known and what we've always enjoyed and felt comfortable with, that's not the future that we've got. But if we sit in a constant state of fear, that's not gonna help us either because we know in our own lives, you can never make a good decision when you're sitting in a place of fear. So getting ready for it, getting our minds ready for it, just either of you just jump in if you want. I haven't formalized this as a presentation or anything. I just figured it would be worth talking to. The one thing I'd say is I've got a lot of friends who, really did having, mental health challenges and are medicating for themselves for it, and they're they're the ones who say, I I I I can't do this. And that that needs to be, considered, and we need to be the strength for them. I say we need to be the guides through this time. So, I think that's something that we all need to be very aware of. Have have anything to add? Yeah. I I mean, I I think it's a it's I mean, I I think it's a really interesting sort of time, and it this is this is part of what I what I've started talking a lot more is that you you can't think of this as something that you somehow have to be able to fix entirely yourself, but that you need to have that faith in carrying on. It's like the conversation we had the, you know, the previous time with lady Heather. You know, how do you carry on in the face of kind of adversity that you don't you you don't know how to deal with in in a way? So so to to become the guide is also to to to have that faith that actually you can be that. Yeah. So so so I think that's sort of very important to try and underline this is when you stand there on that beautiful green field with a horrendous storm ahead and you're sort of looking at it, you you don't need to think you have to somehow draw that faith from you personally, but that you can have faith in being able to do it. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. So, yeah, faith. I think that's gonna become a a word that we use more and more. So, you know, we're in the poly crisis, and there's a lot going on. You know? I've I've I've got on the slide if you feel overwhelmed by climate change, the biodiversity crisis, the impact of chemicals and microplastics in our environment, which we know are gonna take thousands of years to break down, war. We're seeing the terrible, terrible situation that's unfolding in Gaza, the baby starving, genocide politics, and just everything that's going across our screens. I've I've been reading a lot of the stuff about, you know, flooding the zone, the whole, Trump admin, the sort of their philosophy, and and it works. But we're all in it together. We're not alone. So the key point that I always say to everyone, and I'd love to know if you guys agree with this, is you don't under have to understand everything that's going on. You really don't. In fact, in in some ways, I encourage people to skip the knowledge part because if you go into the depth of this knowledge, you you sink into it for a good couple of years, One, just trying to work it out, but two, the emotions of dealing with what you find. So if you don't wanna face it, but you wanna do something about it, trust those people, people like us, who who have spent the time and the effort and the hours and the days and the months and the years, like, I I basically been doing this for nine years, just this, to try and understand it so that I can work out what we need to do next. And if you don't trust me, there there'll be someone in your life that you trust. So, while I think knowledge is incredibly important, I don't think it's I don't think we've got time to deal with the world full fully in despair either. That's my my biggest concern. There's a really interesting comment made, in in a, in in a YouTube clip thing I saw yesterday. And and and there was a comment made, and the comment was that, you know, I'm not gonna go into other science things. This is from a science guy. Right? Yeah. I knew it was saying because, basically, people use it to trap you into endless discussions. Yeah. The important thing is just appreciating, you know, what is important to you in that way. And and this is this is the part that, you know, as as you as you do that, you you're going to make it relevant to yourself, and that's the important part of it. Because if you just delve into kind of the details of how radiative forcing works or how, you know, microplastics actually last that long or whatever it is and so on, you know, you're you're doing the you're trying to do the job of thousands of scientists in that way. And and what you lack is understanding. So so we Richard and I, we started talking in terms of sort of knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. So knowledge is facts. It's the knowing of facts. And that and and some facts are important. It's not that they're all not important, but understanding is key. Understanding, as you have to you know, this part is to is is the part that makes the knowledge useful. It's the understanding of who you are, your world, you know, people around you and all the rest. And wisdom is the part that tells you what your own path needs to be. So you can you're kind of understanding of everything, and then if you just do that, you'll be chasing everything along. But at the end of the day, this tree that you have there is that that is your tree, that you are a tree growing. You you grow new leaves every year. So Richard and I have been talking about, you know, we're old trees growing new leaves. Mhmm. Because we have to do that. So so so that's what we do. So bringing all that together into the context of who you are yourself, that's the wisdom part. That's the part that brings out the genius that is in you. That's the part that allows you to have faith that you can go forward. And the the the huge amount of information that's flowing around that knowledge, that's part of the trap. And this guy was really interesting in saying that's all part of the climate denial, is to get stuck into those details. Right. Interesting. I haven't heard that perspective before. You'll have to share that with me. Yeah. I think because it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. But but then you might be like us and you'd be be driven to understand the bigger story, but, you know You you do need it, but as you say, there are people doing it. And the point is when you look out and use your own experience, you you you start realizing, you know, it's very much part of our nature to want to open the door and actually get out there and face the world rather than hoping that it it is it's all gonna disappear. You know, all the problems gonna disappear. We know problems never disappear. Mhmm. Yeah. Alright. So and then, the idea is everyone just jumps straight into action, and we mean everyone. You know? I always say we need 1,000,000,000 people imperfectly changing. There's no perfect way of doing this, because what what our goal is is to get out of overshoot. And overshoot basically means we're taking more than the planet can regenerate in a given year. And, you know, a lot of us come from nations where we're already in overshoot before the end of the first quarter. So March, we're we're already in overshoot. So that means we're taking so much from Earth that that's that's debt that has to be repaid by our children in the future the more we take. So that's that's that's what we need. We just all need to say, right, it's time. So, we have to think big, and, you know, a lot of people talk about the 1%, but the it's not really the 1%. It's the point 001%, and these are the multimillionaires and the billionaires. And then we've got the 1%, and the vast majority of people that we know are in the 1% as well as the 10%. So I think it was $38,000 a year is an income for the 10%, and that's also the vast majority of people we know. I appreciate that in a lot of countries, the $38,000 salary is not a big salary. You know? It's not a it's not a it's not a fancy life in a lot of places. In a country like India, a 68,000 US dollar salary could could go a lot further than, say, in a country like Australia. But the bigger point is we've gotta reduce our material and energy consumption, especially if we're in those countries that are in overshoot within the first quarter by about 70%. So that's why I've got give or take because different countries have got, different amounts of consumption and different levels of overshoot. I think the way I come to think a little bit about that, is the cycle of the materials and things that we use. And and, if we think back to nature, in that, we think back to tree, you know, growing new leaves and what does it do. It it grabs a bunch of kind of sunlight carbon and other things in the air and stuff, and they grows it out and dumps it after a year. But those leaves recycle. Those leaves become loose again very, very quickly. So, you know, hedgehogs burrow under them to to try and hide away from the winter, and other things like that happen. I remember looking through a pile, that we had in garden with my kids that had been kinda semi composting away and found all these snakes in there and and the rest. And so this cycle of how you use something and how long you need it is all related to how how often it comes useful again in in that way. So if you get a plastic bottle and I have this experience. I had a plastic bottle. We're driving back from Germany, picking up my, father-in-law who passed away a few years ago, has his last stuff with my wife, from them bringing back. So it was kind of an emotional journey, and we're driving back along. And, I had this bottled water that was from them. And then the next few days, I was using the bottle. And then I started thinking, okay. I can cut this. I can plant it in it. I can start doing other things with it. So I'm extending that usefulness of what it is in that way. Now what we tend to think is that we can somehow pass it off to someone else and somehow it gets recycled and all the rest of it as opposed to simply becoming having continuing its useful existence. So think about the leaf. The leaf that falls on the ground continues its useful existence, ask that leaf as it goes along through. And when we start thinking of that, we extend the length of kind of, the the we reduce material use that we actually are doing because we're continuing with it. And my mom used to do this a lot when she was when I was growing up in Hong Kong, and all the people used to do that in all the places. There was just nothing was kind of thrown away. There was always something else used before in that in that sense. So behind all of this thinking big is to really kind of, in some ways, you know, how do you actually engage yourself as nature engages itself in that way? How do you think about all the materials that you have? And you will need some material like my laptop, which actually goes on, it's gonna take a long time, you know, for it to to become to to to become used again. And and you could talk about all the recycling things and so on, but sometimes often, those are also hiding the fact that you just wanna get a new one. Yeah. So how do you go past and say, I can still use this? You know? It's just that mindset. Right? It's just Yeah. You know, everything that you bring into your home, you bring in consciously and think about, and everything that leaves your home, you do the same. You know, our rubbish bin is a tiny small bag every every because in Singapore, they empty the bins every day, and it's a small bag. The vast majority of our neighbors, their their rubbish bins are full and overflowing. You know? And it and it so that's just a mindset. You know? So we're we've we've we consciously have been thinking about that for a long time. And what can we reuse? You know? You know, a a a pump bottle for something can be used for something else. You know? You can't use them all if you keep buying them buying more and more, but, yeah, that real that real consciousness is is is what we need to start seeing. People need to start seeing their waste. And it's it's it's like, you know, a hermit crab. Right? It uses a discarded shelf for hope. And and you you so so things can get used to in ways that were never the original intent, as nature does all the time. And we tend to think of it as saying, okay. That needs to be recycled back into whatever it was. But the recycling itself, you know, we we forget recycling itself is hugely demanding of nature and its resources in order to so so it's much better in the way of thinking, okay. How can I actually innovate and create something else out of it, that would that would work? Although, I mean, there's just too much. Right? So we and and we need we need the big producers of these items to to completely rethink how they do it. I always say sustainability is a poverty problem. You know, if you look at a a plastic bottle of Coke, a liter bottle of Coke, next to six cans of Coke, all those six cans of paint can be recycled, and that plastic bottle lasts for five hundred years in the environment. The six cans of Coke are worth twice as much as as the plastic bottle of Coke. Right? So we we can't be perfect, and we can't beat ourselves up. We've we've we've gotta do the best we can wherever we are. We don't all have axe access to farmers markets. We don't all have access to, you know, the the places where we can go and buy things in bulk. We just don't. So just it's just about doing the best we can. I'm gonna say, Richard, when you're on mute, I'll know you're ready to talk. Alright? Like I said, I'm here. Alright. But like I said, the, you know, the 25 richest people on earth, each individually emit 3,000,000 tons of c o two a year. So it's, I mean, it's obviously out of proportion, but it's also things like where they invest their money contributes to their emissions. So there's no question that this is the group that has to shrink the most, but we need to remember that if we shrink our impact, we also impact their bottom line. So, you know, we we we can have an impact on them in other ways For whatever reason, and we're gonna talk about this probably at the end, they don't seem to be inclined. They're still building their super yachts and buying their their private jets. So, but anyway but we still have to do it because sorry. David? I I was gonna say I'm I'm I'm always wary of kind of partitioning, you know, this sort of partitioning thing. It it it's it's set up a perfect sort of kind of, I've forgotten what that statement is, kind of like, you know, it's the other kind of thing situation. Yeah. And so you you you end up thinking it's the other. And I'd like to throw something out there, and it came related to sort of the the the richer people in the world, 38,000, the richer people in the world, which are basically all the people living in the developed countries plus a huge number growing number in China. Not everybody there and not everybody in India, but there are a lot of very rich people in India. In Thailand. In Thailand and so four. And and they have a lifestyle where I I've noticed it a lot more in a way. They they they go and make two, three trips a year or four trips a year around the world, go and see this and that, especially when they retire. And it's like, you know, the kids are in The States and other places, and they can travel there, and they see the grandkids, and they travel somewhere else to do that. And and they generally have a very nice life. Sorry to say this, mate, but the planet can't afford you having that sort of life. Yeah. So why do you But it's unfair because we've had that life opportunity for longer based on, you know, where we were born and where we you know? And, so it sort of makes it a little bit unfair. But at the same time, if everyone lived the life I'd lived, you know, and I'm doing my penance now for that life, But if everyone lived the life I lived, I mean, we'd even be in more overshoot. Right? So, but then as soon as soon as I became aware, I I I I just started going, oh, okay. I need I need to start first. And and fairness is really a terrible, way to kind of try to find out who you are and how you should live. The the the the the two problems with it. The first problem is that it makes you always compare yourself to something else. So you're never actually finding finding out who you are and what is right for you in in in in that way. So that makes you highly susceptible to the advertising that's going on. Again, some of the topic that we talked about before. Because the the whole advertising thing is to move our emotions into thinking that somehow, you know, we too can have that or we too should deserve that, but not never asking who are you really and what do you really want or need. Yeah. So so that's that's one one side of that. And the other part of the fairness is, of course, when resources are constrained, which is the point of what we're talking about. You know, the atmosphere is being constrained by too much rubbish being dumped into the atmosphere. Just think about that. You know, you see the picture of the oceans being flooded or the Atacama Desert with all the piles of rubbish there, but you don't see the picture of the atmosphere actually being filled up with all the rubbish, which is what climate change is really driven by in that way. When resources are for being constrained, how do you distribute it? You can't in in a way. You you're not going to be able to distribute it on the principle of some sort of fairness because there is no way of weighing fairness Yeah. Without it ultimately reflecting on the fact that we are always in some way, one main one way or another selfish, in that sense. So so so so so be very careful. Yeah. Yeah. No. I suppose what I'm sort of saying is for someone like me to stand here and go, we've all gotta do this, could come across almost colonial. Right? You know, I've had the I've had the privilege of my life, you know, but you're not you can't have the same privilege. That that that is how the message could land, but it's not that at all. It's, yes. I had the benefit of, like I said, being born when and where I was, and, I lived an amazing life and had a great opportunity with that life, but have come to realize that I can't live that life and the way I was living. But the and like I've got on this slide, most people miss this point. So when they blame the multimillionaires and the billionaires, there's 3,800,000,000 middle class people, and it's expected to grow to 4,800,000,000 by 2030. I don't think we can get to 4,800,000,000 by 2030 based on just what we're seeing in the environment, But it's it's the sheer scale, and I've you know, living out in Asia, I've seen this change really, really clearly. You know, going from what David was talking about, you know, the the generation that basically saved everything, that there was no waste, to this incredible amount of waste, and and consumption sort of existing in societies across this region. So I've seen because the the biggest growth has come from Asia. But, you know so when we blame the billionaires, they're not dumping the clothes in the Atacama Desert. Well, they might be. They might be profiting off the sale of those clothes, but it's us buying them in such extraordinary numbers that is creating the actual problem in the environment. So we're all in it together, and like you said, David, you know, when I hear it's China's fault, it's America's fault, it's their fault, it's it's the fossil fuel industry's fault, it's all of our fault. All of our fault. Every industry, every country, we're all we're all in this together, and I think that's a really that's a really important message. We've gotta stop blaming and pointing, and we've just gotta start coming together and acting because we really are at a critical phase, which is obvious to anyone who's paying attention. Yeah. I mean, you know, you you you're not gonna have a choice, basically. So that's that's Yeah. Yeah. It's just it's just going to be coming at you. So Yeah. All all we are saying, you know, Andrea, who's been doing this for a lot longer, you know, Richard, myself, what we're saying is, look, it's coming at you. You know? Yeah. It's just you know, you can you can keep your head in the sand. You can go along and close your eyes, or you can get stuck in the details and everything else. Whichever way you wanna react with it as as you like, it's still gonna come at you. That in a sense is the ultimate unfairness. But, you know, why me? Right? Well, it's just the way it's going to be. So your choice, your genuine choice, is how do you actually get out there so that you can be a part of something where people appreciate you being around. Because you're gonna need a living, and to have a living, you're gonna need people to appreciate you being around. And we go around spending all the stuff and wasting all the things that other people look at. Then, you know, they're gonna look at you badly. Mhmm. And That's coming. Too. And that's how the interaction comes. But if you actually change and actually become more yourself when you become more yourself, you use less because you're chasing everything else. Yeah. Alright. So how do we do that? So, you know, I came up with a whole bunch of ideas, and there's so many more I could have added to this. And I wanna say to people, like, I know plenty of people who are doing a lot of these things, are planning a lot of these things. I am not judging anyone for anything. I I I I really appreciate why people are doing what they're doing, so I appreciate that people don't even think about it. So there is no judgment. Anytime I share these things, I I wanna be really clear on that. All I'm saying is to maybe just start with one. Because what you find is when you start with one, it it it starts you on the journey, and then you find the next one and the next one and the next one. It's it's really where the transformation begins. But don't kick yourself. Don't feel guilty. We're we've all done this. I'm I'm like I said, I'm as guilty as anyone. But the first thing I I always say is we've gotta start avoiding single use anything. And, obviously, single use plastics are number one on the list. I've cleaned a lot of beaches in my time, and, I I I see what this looks like. But, anything that's created requires energy and material to be created. And, you know, I've been in shopping centers. Everyone's walking around with paper bags. It's not made from recycled, recycled paper. It's made from trees. And when plastic bags were first designed, which they were actually designed, not a single use, they were designed as multiuse. They were designed because the person who designed them was very concerned about deforestation because of the paper bags that we were using at the time. There's prob at that time, there were maybe a hundred million middle class people because it was in the fifties. Now we've got 3,800,000,000 people. So all of us walking around with paper bags, ordering so much takeout even if it's in in a sustainable container. Like, the amount of, paper and cardboard that is being used probably concerns me more than anything, even more than the the amount of plastic that's being used. And that's something that's saying something especially for Asia. So, I'm with you completely with that. And and what I would say is, you know, sometimes it's really hard to avoid because, you know, the the world we live in has everything packaged. If you're in Asia, everything is really packaged. Right? If you're in Japan, your sweets are packaged three times before you can get to the stuff. Right? Yep. So so what what I think, obviously, if you can't avoid it, then think of using it twice and then double that. So then you end up using it four times, and then you end up using it eight eight times and so on. So Yeah. That kind of challenges your imagination. I've got a crisp wrapper Yeah. Or sweet wrapper. How do I use it again? So I've got these, contact lenses, daily contact lenses, and they own these casings. And I'm like, how do I use it again? Right? And we can share ideas about what we can do, and I was gonna fill bottoms of plant pots with it in in that way. To drain. So so to drain. So so to help soil drain bits and stuff. And then that that comes like, oh, that's one way of doing it. You know? I was and and there there are I'm sure there are other ideas everybody will have that can come along and think about what you can do with it with without needing to do anything more with them than what they are. So we we tend to think if we have to reuse something, we somehow have to transform them and forget that transforming it takes even more resources along the way. Yep. You know, whether that's energy to heat it up to do something or whatever it is. So what can you actually just use as it is, which is what nature does. Tree falls down, the wood slowly is reused by all sorts of as it is in these different phases as it goes on through. So think think about that. That's the single use items. Avoid if you can, but very often we can't because like my contact lenses, the shell casing comes in that way. They are designed to be single use, and there's very little. But I can actually challenge myself to imagine how can I use it again? Yeah. Richard, you've been really silent. I have indeed. But I think what we're describing here actually boils down to the simple principle of reduce, reuse, recycle, and that sort of tapering off in the utility of those measures. Ultimately and and this is very aligned with, you know, some core philosophies that the nature and the planet has a capacity for a pace, and we are constantly trying to outjump it by consuming more than what the nature and the planet can provide. So first of all, we need to align that consumption pattern to the actual capacity of our environment. That's reduce our consumption to that level. I I think of it not as can provide, but can cope with after we dump it. Yeah. Yeah. And and and at the moment, what we are actually doing very, very actively is we're diminishing that planet's capacity for it to cope with us because we're empowering it in all sorts of ways. And it's infinitely more useful once we have made a purchase and we have extracted those resources to actually reuse it in a multitude of ways before we resort to the final stage, which is re trying to recycle it. Because Yeah. Reusing it is much, much more effective than recycling. Yeah. Yep. Alright. And so, you know, this is a a picture of my bee well, my boy my bees. My boys on the beach with, one of their mates, James. And, you know, like, I think in Asia, we saw the tide of waste much much more than the rest of the world, but that tide has I know, you know, we're seeing it in Central America and across Africa as well, but I think that tide is much more, obviously, hitting the shores of all nations now. You look across the top of Australia where there's not that many people, but it's just trashed. You know? So it's I mean, it's going all the way out to Antarctica, you know, so it's just it's just out of control, and and we've gotta see see it, and we've gotta stop contributing to it. And, like I said, it's not easy, but we've we've just gotta start trying, and we gotta start forcing these businesses that we buy from to do it. You know, like, the Coca Cola, recommendation, double charge double for a plastic bottle and and charge to half charge half the price for the cans. You know? Start making start making different choices like that. So we know we know it can be done when there's will. We've seen a lot of the beer companies. They changed the plastic sort of rings to turtle friendly rings. So, you know, there's there's there's lots that can be done, and we're not doing it. You know? Every time I go into a supermarket, I feel really disappointed that, more radical transformation hasn't happened. I would say fast is in the title. Is it time to avoid it? So, obviously, fast food, fast fashion, fast furniture, fast decorations, which is something I came up with. And this is when you see at Christmas time, everyone sort of putting up their their tree and their theme for the year. So when we grew up, it was the same decorations year after year after year, and then somehow we got into a culture where we had new decorations every year. They were much, much cheaper. They basically wouldn't even last a year, and then you just chuck them out in the waste. Right? So we just we can change that mindset. But fast food, I've got family members who are addicted to it. It's not just bad for us. It's full of chemicals, but it's also massively responsible for the deforestation that's going on. Fast fashion, so, you know, this is something I really struggle with. I'm seeing there's still so many of the influences out there with their hauls. One good thing about the Trump tariffs is, they can't really get the hauls without paying all the extra cost. But, you know, when you're wearing synthetic clothing, which means it's made from fossil fuels, especially for females, you're absorbing it into your body. So, you know, the the the activewear that a lot of girls are loving, you know, it's near your pits, so you're absorbing it in in through your sweat glands, and that's dangerous. And, obviously, underwear, you know, good old days, it used to be silk. Now it's all polyester type fabrics, and you're wearing that on the most intimate part of your bodies, which means you're absorbing these chemicals and these plastics into your body. So it's not good for any of us. So, fast furniture, that's one of the things that drives me absolutely nuts. You know, it used to last for generations. So, you know and I think IKEA is responsible for that, you know, and then the Chinese sort of supercharged fast furniture, but deforestation, plastics, waste, the idea that, you know, you upgrade your home every couple of years. You know? I I don't I don't I I don't know how we ever got there. I really don't. Well I mean, you know, money has to do with it, but I'd like to throw one fast in there that's not what people normally think of, but it's really, really important. And that's fast sustainability. This idea that we can get there quickly, we need to do that. Sustainability is a mindset. You're trying to change generations. You want that mindset to develop. So if you think about the the mindset that has developed, that has ended up culminating in fast food, fast furniture, and fast clothing, and and all of those things, to switch that around is a very gradual process that you need to be aware of. So if you try to do it quickly, what happens is that you're replacing one item with another and then saying it's good. So it's the plastic bag replaced with the paper bag, and so you can now use as much as you can and you don't really care about it in that way. Change the mindset back of saying a bag lasts for a long time, and then after it has crumbled up, it has a use. Has a crumbled up bag with holes in it. That has a use. I just have to discover what it is and so on in that way. Takes a very long time. So sustainability is a mindset. It is spiritual. It is about having that faith and being able to go forward with it and actually not forcing the pace and accept for the pace that nature will naturally take it. And it's gonna take ten thousand years to get rid of some of these plastics. That's the pace we have to accept so that we don't chuck more in there As opposed to thinking, after now, I've got a solution. After now, I'll fix it. So so I wanna throw that in there, because increasingly, what people do not appreciate is that at the end of the day, the businesses that function you know, the people who lift off the profits of the business are the people who are retired because the rest of us who work get paid from the revenues of the business. One way or another, whether we work through the taxes that the business pays or the government pays us to do our job or whether we work directly for business so that it pays or we have a business where we eat off the income from it in that way. But the ones who eat off the profits of this thing are the growing masses of people who are retiring, who have that lovely middle class background and have that lovely middle class expectations. And they're always driving it along, and they're gonna drive for politics because there's a lot more of them in the rich countries, and they're gonna be a lot more of them as well. So this is a real gradual mentality change that you that that we're actually facing. It's a poly crisis, but it's actually met by nature how it comes back. Think of, you know, one of the mass extinctions, you know, such the asteroid that came and blew blew open the dinosaurs and sort of said goodbye to them. Nature gradually comes back. We have to allow that time and that pace and accept that we're not gonna solve it, but we can actually establish a whole new mindset to help become part of living in. Is it a new mindset or an old mindset? It's an ancient mindset. Absolutely. This is where, you know Absolutely. Like, it's not becoming trendy again kind of thing. Yeah. Absolutely. You look back in time where resources weren't plentiful because we didn't have the means back then to extract them in full. Lot of those practices are becoming very fashionable again for a very simple reason. They're sound practices. These are good practices, whether it's got to do with farming or fishing or, you know, beer brewing. You are actually going back to discovering that maybe we weren't so retarded after all a couple of hundred years ago. We actually understood this better than we thought because there are fundamentally sound practices, and they're not shortcuts to achieving short term outcomes at the expense of the long term viability of our planet. Yeah. And we're gonna get onto the, the economics, later because we always obviously do. But, the fast fashion industry is obviously one. But it's not just fast fashion, it's luxury fashion, which is I I don't know if you've seen the the videos with of the Chinese factories talking about how they're making the Hermes and Lou Vuitton bags, but there are enough clothes on this planet right now to to clothe the next six generations. Like, just that. Right? So what can we do about it? You know, so, obviously, trying to buy natural fibers, but if you're buying lots lots of of of clothes in natural fibers, you're not you're not contributing. You're still taking. So it's about really, really reducing. So the the recommendation is three to five new items of clothing a year, and, obviously, we need to take underpants out of that. But, we can swap, we can share, you know, there's there's so many things that we can do, but if you just buy high quality products, buy less. And, also, we need to change the whole culture around fashion of you can only be seen in something once. And we're seeing some celebrities starting to sort of talk about this and represent this, but it's not enough. The the the message is still very much, you know, look at me, and I'm fabulous. I've always got something new on. So, you know, that's something that we can all make a very, very clear decision about. I do things like, I dye my clothes so when they start to get too faded, they're not worn out. Repairing clothes, fixing, you know, those small nicks, just trying to make things last as long as they can. And then at the end of the life and I try to buy natural fibers rather than synthetic. In in Thailand, I was able to donate to a lot of charities. The whole family's closed. I can't do it so much here. We use, old clothes for cleaning, and also, I find, those sort of communities where they take the fabrics and sew them into into other things. In Asia, you can stuff pillowcases with old clothes, and that can become a pillow, for someone who who who doesn't have a pillow. You know? So there's lots of different things that we we need to start thinking about and doing, but, yeah, the fashion industry's it's it's it's a big issue. And we're seeing lots of people talking about it, but it's not changing. And I think the consumer demand is a big part of that. Of course, it is. I mean, it it's what's driving them. I mean, these businesses have not been created out of thin air. As long as you have consumers thinking it's a great idea to to wear new clothes every day or every party I go to, I can't wear the same shirt or whatever. That that kind of business will always be in demand. It might alter its shape or its geographical location, wherever it's cheaper to manufacture it. And I strongly suspect China will soon be too expensive. Those businesses will always flourish. But that comes back to the mindset that, you know, clothing, yes, clothing gets worn down eventually, and you need to replace it. But there are some, you know, quite simple tricks to do in this sense. If you buy a suit and I probably bought my last suit because I have quite a few hanging on a peg, and they're not used very much. But for the younger generation who will soon be wearing suit and tie in the office, I have no doubt, always buy a suit with two trousers because the trousers will wear out so much before your jacket, and then you have a jacket you can't really use because your trousers have been worn out. And, you know, when you're young, you make that mistake. When you're 30, you don't. You always buy a suit with two trousers, and then you get a lot more use out of it. And But can I ask you can I can I ask you, were you both surprised by the fact that we've got enough clothes on the planet just to address the next six generations? Is that a was that a surprise to you? Yeah. No. Of course it is. I knew it was a lot. To me, it's it's shocking, but I shouldn't be shocked anymore by these stats. No. I I mean, I'm I'm I'm not shocked by it. I mean, I think I think that, I think the reality is that we don't have clothes that can last the next six generations. I think that's the that's that's really an issue along with it. You know, people used to have, say, you know, wedding dresses used to be passed on. Right? Kind of like your mom's wedding dresses. The the suit was kind of from your father or whatever it might be in that way. Yeah. So so clothing that last multiple generations because, you know, the I still remember, and and in fact, my mom, you know, is still sort of giving away bits of clothing in in that way. But we we ourselves turned away from it. So there's a wardrobe through my dad passed away a few years ago, and there's a waterproof clothes that that were that are his. I've gradually come to that to think, you know what? I can use this. It's actually a hard thing for people to to think about doing because the style is different. You know, the the the way it is, it looks like you know, I don't wanna look like my dad, you know, for a start. But but the thing is is the fact that what what I think of is that the items don't last for six generations. Last part of the issue there. And the other thing is we, you know, we we we can't we we don't actually see have the situation. When I was growing up, there was always this sort of situation of, what do I wear? I don't wanna look the same as someone else, find ourselves wearing the same thing. Because there are fewer shops, fewer opportunities, and fewer styles and stuff. And so what you end up with is that there was a higher chance, a very high chance that you're always going to wear same clothing as someone else. So there's a lot more in sort of coordinating with your friends when you go somewhere, and there's a lot more in terms of, you know, kind of thinking yourself about how you modify your clothing and do and do stuff of that kind. But today, everything is in small blocks. Right? So a shop stocks fewer items so that it can have stock more different styles, And that's how you end up with more pieces that you have lying around. And we go to more events. We do more things. And so we end up having to think we need to buy something new each time. Got a wedding to go to. I've got to buy something new. Do you really Yeah. Yeah. I I, I used to, shop at secondhand clothes shops when I was a teenager because my parents never had any money, and I couldn't afford all the fancy clothes my friends afforded. So I was always very unique. I was also a really good sewer. So, I used to I used to get, like, these seventies dresses and sort of adapt them. And, yeah. So I was sustainable before my time, but out of financial necessity. But it's that sort of thing. Like, I'm I'm gonna buy a sewing machine and, relearn how to use it because I I used to love it, just so I can repair stuff rather than throwing them away. So, yeah, more more of that. My friend Jen will be proud of that. I'm I'm just looking at the time, so I want us to see if we can move fast faster. So, obviously, reducing meat is really important. So I say by 70%, better if we eat none at all, becoming vegetarian, but, obviously, vegan is your best option. You know, we've seen it in the two sets of floods in Australia where where the cows and the livestock have been impacted by the floods. If you combine extensive flooding with the extensive heat event, fire event, which all of which are capable in Australia, not only is meat gonna become so extraordinarily expensive at some point, that you might not even be able to access meat, which is where I'm saying, you know, it should be obvious that eventually we are all going to have to be vegan whether we like it or not. So it's just a good time to practice. Yeah. A friend of mine, Rebecca, for her fiftieth, I organized a vegan feast, and, I had to I spent weeks doing research on vegan food. So just getting get into get into veganism, even just a little bit, learn about it, what it is, what what are some of the recipes that you can enjoy. And if you got kids, it's a good thing to involve them them in. Why good. So I remember in Australia, there was a story of a guy got, fined because he he basically pushed his fridge off a off a, like, basically off a cliff at the side of a road, because it was so expensive to take it to the tip or the rubbish tip or whatever they're called in other parts of the world. And, I I I thought it was a really interesting one. So I think we should be putting our our white goods outside of the gates of the of the brands that manufacture them. And if they don't have a system set up where, they they take them back, because there's so many pieces in these ridges that can be recycled. So the the floods, I was watching a video in Taree, which is a town in Australia that just got swamped with with floods. And outside, all of the shops is everything that's being thrown away, and they're just waiting for skips. But so much of that, you know, won't be recycled. It'll just be dumped in into the environment. So let's return our goods to to the manufacturers and, also think about what you can share. So, you know, water jets, because in the tropics, you get a lot of mold. So we don't all need to buy a water jet because you only use it a couple of times a year. Can we have a street where we all come together and we buy one and we share it? You know? We don't need to buy everything. We don't need our fridges and our not our fridges, our our sheds full of stuff that we only use once or twice a year. So I think the sharing economy idea is a really important one. Do you any any thoughts? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think that will happen by necessity. Right? As as the cost of living pressures ramps up on people, you will find different ways of, using our resources better. And and actually, you know, call me a nasty capitalist, but, you know, the price mechanism will enforce this. And it's simple as that. If we cannot afford each to have one of those water ski, maybe I pulled one with my neighbor, and that's how it starts. But something you're touching on, which sits very close to my heart, is this fallacy of of not being prepared to spend a little bit more for things that actually last. And I'm quite obsessed with shoes in that sense because it's it's a well-being thing. There's nothing worse for your body and have shoes that are not really fitting, particularly, you know, in a business setting. It's worth spending money on proper pair of shoes rather than buying three you wear down and then you keep mending them. Because if you find a really good pair of shoes, they literally last you a lifetime. Just keep looking after them. And when they're really worn down, you go to the guy who knows professionally how to mend them. Spend the money. It's a well-being thing on so many levels to do that. And it should extend to clothing as well. It's probably better to buy a high quality suit than a low quality suit. But we do need the electrical manufacturers to to really up their game because they're not they're they're they're going for cheap, not going for quality that lasts, you know. Because that's how how can you how can you possibly grow every quarter and year on year if if, you know, people aren't upgrading on a regular basis? And that's a problem. And you see the sales I hate those annual sales in The US, and there'll be some person holding a TV. I bought a new TV. I don't need one, but it was so cheap I bought it. You know, that mindset. Right? You know, it's like It reminds me that as you were talking along and stuff this, when you're talking about sort of, you know, the white dudes and the garbage and stuff reminded of a song called Alice's Restaurant, ancient song by Alok Guthrie. And, anyway, it was a it was an anti war song. It's talking about building movements and stuff, and there's a rhyme along with it that sort of says, you can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant. And the story goes along about having this big pile of rubbish and we'll dump it and have it got in trouble for dumping rubbish and all the rest of it. But it's a basic sort of, and it talks about how, you know, you you end up building a movement and not all the rest in those. It's it's a I like the song. I think it's very much a Marmite song in in that way. So I'm gonna hate it, and it goes on for a long time. But anyway but this part where the the refrain of you can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant is the problem. We are told we should be able to get everything we want. And no matter what we do with that, when we were writing the unsustainable truth, we were kind of digging a little bit more into the recycling culture and the recycling to circular economy and those sort of things and so on. The the fact is that, you know, if you want if one of your light bulb breaks, you can recycle that and at some other point, you can get another one, put it in there in that way. But if you end up having getting another lamp, then you need the new light bulb. So so you're always gonna end up having to have a new thing along because it just grows along in that way. We shouldn't be able to get everything we want. That's that's the hard unfairness of it all. We shouldn't That's what that's what changed. Right? Yeah. And we don't think about that as being the principle by which we should live. We think in terms of how we should be able to get everything we want, we should create a world where everyone can get whatever they want in that way. And we define that to be fairness, but it's a fairness devoid of the whole picture of nature and the generations to come and the legacy of what we have on it. Yeah. So so it's much it's much harder than simply the rubbish. And the rubbish is dealing with the immediate issue. I've got this quite good. What do I do with it? And when I buy a new one, they should replace it along, and and and and whatever it is. But it's this part of them saying, how do we develop those one and a half billion people that are gonna be middle class? You know, what does their middle class look like? And Rich and I talked with some Yep. People in in in kind of like, who who are working on sort of computer aided design in, kinda interior design type things, in in Nairobi. And the thing I'm always struck by talking to them is their designs are replicas of what a New York apartment looks like. And I'm looking at that. I'm thinking, why would you do that? You have no experience of that. Why would you do that? It's because the magazines have it and all the rest. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone's got a kitchen, and everyone's got a washing machine, and then everyone's all that sort of stuff, which which can be communal. You know, a lot like a lot of the Asian sort of sort of apartment buildings, they've got so much more communal space, but but even the newer builds have got more and more of these things. You know, I was I was in Phuket a little while ago, and, there's so many villas. I mean, it's ridiculous what's what's going on there. There's gonna be such a crash. And one of the beautiful rivers that I used to walk, lakes that I used to drive past to get the boys to and from school, it's just full of building waste, and it's white waste. It's white goods waste. Right? So they're not they don't the builders aren't taking responsibility for it. We got Jonathan here saying right to repair plus right to return. And even the right to return, you know, we had a TV that it it, failed after just, like, two days after the warranty. And then we took it to see if we could get it repaired, and the cost of repair was more than a TV. And you're kind of like, come on. You know? It's it's that sort of stuff. So stupid. Yeah. And, like, it's it's it's I I you know, those are important, and I add this part, which is a critical part to ourselves. We could've think of our own right to have. And and and that we the the the part of that is we don't like it when it's imposed on us, so it can't be imposed on us. Now they actually, it is something that needs to emerge. And and we Richard and I talk a lot about emergence and emergence economics, how to how can a genuine economics emerge because that's the only way that it is. That's why it takes a long time. Nature emerges out of the interactions and engagements of all of the species, you know, whether they are tiny microbes to, you know, massive elephants. Yeah. It all interacts together. And that emergence takes a long time to come about, but it doesn't come from a right to have Yep. And therefore a demand that someone must provide. It comes from a recognition that actually Yeah. It's just such a big mind a mindset shift. Right? And it's in contradiction with the world that is being marketed to us. So yeah. Absolutely. You grasp that hugeness of it, and it doesn't match GDP as a as a growth, and it doesn't, you know, it doesn't match so much so many of the models that run the world right now. Absolutely. And that's why fast sustainability is an illusion. Yeah. Because fast sustainability tries to keep all of those things running, all of those cotton wheels running just with different wheels. Yeah. I would go even further. I would say that fast sustainability is a contradiction in terms. It's it's it's even more than an illusion. You know, it's quick fixes will never work. You know, the fact no. It's a structural systemic change. Right? And it it goes to the heart of the mindset, for sure. Alright. Let me go into the next one because I'm I'm sure we can continue this. And, obviously, technology. So, you know, I'm raising two teenage boys, and, we went through a period where they wanted the latest. And And I sort of sat him down, and I talked to him about, you know you know, the the the the environmental cost of technology. They they do well, you know, on the technology front. They have everything that they need as well as things that they want. Right? But I I really like, the latest desire is the new $5,000 headset from Apple, and I'm like, no. Just no. And now I I'm I'm being forced to go and test it at an Apple store and and to be asked if I if I can, you know, still still hold on to that. But, you know, making things last for as long as possible. One of the great benefits of being out in Asia is that when, things stop working, there's a lot of charities that take your technology, repair it, and then give it to, communities that don't don't have the latest technology. We've seen a lot of computers that are older. You know, I was in the tech industry for a long time. I always had the mindset you upgrade every two years, until about, I don't know, five, six years ago. I think so now my phones are four or five years old. I only upgrade when I'm really desperate, but then they have a place to go afterwards. Or I think some of the tech companies are pretty good at recycling, but we don't really know what they're doing behind the scenes. We don't really know. So, I I do know that there's a lot of, places around this region where technology waste goes to die, and, there's people who are going through it for the precious metals and being exposed to all sorts of toxins. So yeah. But making our tech last longer. So if your phone's still going four, five years down the track, you should just keep using it. We don't need to be upgrading them all the time. We really don't. I know. You know, this is the thing. You don't have to upgrade everything all the time. You know? So so so so the way the way technology works is that, new requirements on kind of processing speed and all the rest of it means that some things can't run on load of stuff in f three. But you don't have to upgrade everything all the time. So my phone is relatively new in a Samsung set for five, so it's a generation behind in that way. But I got it when it was kind of in between before the six came out and stuff. My laptop is ten years old. Mhmm. And I can balance between the two of them. I don't actually have to have everything upgraded fast in that way. So so it's very much about, you know, are you are you one of those people who who are kind of like, early adopt adapters adapters of technology? And And I was tend to go for for that very quickly. Or are you one of those people? I I I I'm not. You know, I was very late in getting a mobile phone in in that way. Mhmm. That spread is really important, and that's where the real value comes is that you can have some people fast. You can have but you need a a lot of people who are slow as well. Yeah. And the marketing, the the the pensions, I'm gonna call them the pensions for now, the retirees, need us all to adopt everything fast because that's the way in which the profits can be generated. And they they live off the profits because they don't live off because they're they're not paid, you know, salaries in that way. Mhmm. So that's that's how it is. That's where all the money goes. We did this calculation. I did this calculation. I was shocked at the fact that it basically more than eats up all of those in that way. And we're gonna we're gonna do a show just talking about this because I think it's a really important topic. Right. What else have we got? So I know, look, a lot of people get excited about getting their first EV. I'm surrounded by EVs. It's a it's a actually quite, sort of eerie, coming back to Singapore, and, you can't hear the cars. I've been walking down the road with the dog, and all of a sudden, there's a car right right up my ass behind me. I'm like, oh, didn't even hear it. But I think people certainly do need a car. A lot of people live in cities where the for public transportation, but what we the goal that we need is to be moving towards bikes, walking, public transport. We need to fight for it wherever we live, but we can't replace the the number of, fossil fuel cars or combustion engine cars on the road today with with EVs. We just can't. I think teachers, doctors, emergency workers, I think there's a lot of people who fulfill roles that definitely need EVs. But for the majority of people, you know, like the car sharing, so we we we go everywhere. We basically, through the the local grab service. The vast majority of the cars are EVs. We don't need one, so we don't have one. We've got bikes, and we've got feet. But this is have you got have you guys still got cars? Because, Richard, you're out in the country, so you probably still do. Right? Yep. Absolutely. One big and one small car. None of them are EVs. And it's for practical reasons. Yeah. The smaller car is quite old. There were no EVs around then, and it's very low consumption, and it's a perfect little runner for short to medium distances. When you're going farther, EV still haven't provided a solution that you actually need to have the range of going where I went yesterday. It would have been impossible in an electric vehicle. And I think one day, you know, we will probably upgrade and we will go down that route. But, one thing worth bearing in mind, which kind of bugs me with all the, you know, unbridled electric vehicle enthusiasts out there, is that there is no point from an environmental perspective to shift from a combustion engine to an electric vehicle before you've actually taken the maximum use out of the old combustion engine vehicle. Because most of the environmental impact comes from the construction of the car, not the running of it. So it's much better to actually make the full lifetime use of your existing vehicle before you upgrade and sweat and change. And on a planetary level, it's absolutely bonkers to go on to electric vehicles when we don't have the renewable capacity to actually generate that electricity. In some parts of the world, the additional demand from electricity gets met by burning coal to generate that electricity. I mean, talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Yeah. Yeah. It's kinda it's kinda annoying too. The the part I'd like to add to this is that, again, back to what we were saying before, the reflection starts with, do I need to make this journey? That's the first part. Do I need to make this journey? The second part comes, how can I make this journey? Then comes the part, how am I going to how much how do I drive my car? And this is the same whether you have an EV or whether you have a, internal combustion engine. You know, energy, kinetic energy, the energy of motion is quadratic to the speed that you have, which means that if you're going at 20 miles an hour versus 30 miles an hour, you square the 20, you square the 30, and you get 400 and you get 900 when you square those, which means when you go at 30 miles an hour, your energy is twice it's more than double what is 20. The energy has to come from somewhere. It doesn't just somehow trans appear from nothing. And so if you push yourself between twenty and thirty miles an hour, you make a massive difference to the amount of energy you need and you're using whichever vehicle you're driving. That energy can be used in some other way. The time difference, if you're in a city between trying to go twenty and thirty miles an hour, it's not that much. You can replan yourself quite readily in that way. And traffic wise, the holistic traffic actually flows smoother when now when it goes 20 than 30 because it doesn't have these sudden stops that creates kind of shock waves that propagates a traffic jam along. And that's that's the sort of realizations people don't have. You can then add on, you know, EV or otherwise, and and those are kinda important considerations and things to consider. We did look at it. We're we're looking about changing our car. And what we end up doing, I end up I mean, you know, I'm a physicist at heart. Right? So I end up looking at the wear tip weight of the vehicle versus the amount of fuel we end up using, and the tire wear because tire wear is a problem. Yep. That's what I was gonna say. Yep. And and the electric vehicles are just too heavy. Yeah. So the vast majority of, microplastics found in the ocean are from tires, but that's obviously from combustion engines so far. Right? So in the few AV, then we're just gonna we're just gonna double, triple the amount of, microplastics that are already in the ocean just because it's the excess of the tires. So, you know, the it's it's a really, it's an interesting debate, the EV versus combustion engine. The the biggest the bigger message is we need to get out of individual transportation if we don't absolutely need it. That's the key thing. I I'd like to think of it as I would love to get on an EV bus over internal combustion engine bus. Yep. But that's not something you can change, but it is something you can influence through how you vote and, you know, the involvement. You can you can go along and you can change that because, actually, this is this is the part that, you know, Richard and I talk about. You know, the greatest power in the world is the money we spent. So we can actually change it really, really clearly. We can go to a bus company and say, I'm not getting on your bus because it's internal combustion engine. I'm gonna get all my mates to do that too. Yeah. Bring on an EV one. So you're not you're not you're not seeing that change in The UK for two EV buses? What's happening in the developed world is the following. It's all sort of saying, we're not gonna move unless the custom government subsidizes us. Mhmm. Yep. Yep. Now there is money. It doesn't actually need that, but whilst you can use other people's money, that's what you're gonna do. Yep. Every investment manager in the world knows it's better to use some other people's money than use their own. Yeah. So I think we all need to be a little bit more like Paris, getting everyone on their bikes. Right? Yes. Pets, I now I I've got a dog and I've got a cat, and, we will not get any more because now I'm I'm I'm fully aware. It's a $246,000,000,000 industry, and, obviously, cats, dogs, and other animals, they eat meat, fish. So, you know, they're they're contributing to the crisis. There are I think it's like something like 1,200,000,000 animals pets in the world. I've watched the explosion of pets in Asia. David will know that, in a lot of parts of Asia, you know, we've got a big golden retriever, and the people are terrified of them. And if you have a big Muslim community, there's an there's a whole other issues when it comes to dogs. Right? But I've watched just this explosion of pets in this region. And, you know, I remember the first time I went to India, it was just all, yeah, packs of stray dogs that used to snarl each other at night. Now I go there and I see people, you know, dog walkers with five golden retrievers on a lead. It's a really it's a really, really significant change, and, we, you know, we can't keep growing this either. So and just just even think about it, like the pet accessories that the first Halloween after COVID in America, there was so much extraordinary amount of money spent on pet accessories. You know? So we're we've just gotta we've we've just gotta be mindful. It's just it's not just you doing it. It's a billion other people doing it, and and and the impact all adds up. So have you guys got pets? I do. We have, we have two cats. And, I think I think the the essence about cats has exploded in a way. And and you mentioned about, you know, Muslims is really is really interesting because Muslims sort of assess, you know, there's reasons for functional reasons and reasons for having looking after animals and having animals in that way, but you must not own them for frivolous reasons. And you kind of have to say, well, is the owning of the path something that's frivolous or not? We got our cats during COVID, and I think a lot of people got pets during COVID. And that was kind of like a companionship, and and and had to have something around. So pets serve many different purposes in that way. A friend of mine was always telling me reminding me about how, you know, his I think his grandfather, saw pets in in that way. So cats, which was you never feed a cat. A cat is supposed to feed itself. It's supposed to keep the virgin down, the rodents and stuff around. That's what the cat's for in that way. But today, we are frightened when a cat actually does what it does, which is to go hunting small animals. Well, in Australia, they they eat a lot of the, the the indigenous sort of animals, so it's it's creating a problem over there. And then there, what you have is the fact that you have something that probably shouldn't be there. Right? You know, you introduce an alien species along to be your pattern that way. And so you've created a you you've disrupted that kind of that balance along that that you may wanna go back. It's just like a of, it's like planting different sort of plants that you can have in your garden. You know, some of them look great, but, actually, maybe, you know, they wouldn't be there. And they they and they all go wild, so be careful kind of thing. Yeah. Exactly. So so we we do have cats. And Do you feed them? I do feed them. Ketchup, my my wife feeds them. You know, kind of was very concerned in in that way. I think that we what's that thing where you kind of make them into humans? Mhmm. And homopha who finds them too much in that way. Yeah. You know, we dog used to eat scraps. Now they have premium food. Yeah. That's that's that's that kind of distinction. And it's all part of you know, when you when you look at farming, you we mentioned about vegan and and so on. The the issue the bigger issue is the industrialization of farming much more. And so whether you become vegan or you don't become vegan, it actually makes a difference to pay attention to how your food is. And the best way to do that is to ensure that some part of your food you got able to produce yourself. Whether that's a tomato that you can grow or lettuce in your in in in a pot or whatever, it just reanchors your view. Yeah. Well, in Asia, in China, and in India, pets are replacing children. Yeah. So they are incredibly spoiled. You know? Like, when you talk about premium food, it's, yeah, it's it's off the charts. So it's a very different sort of mindset because it's a first generation actually having pets. If you go to the the night markets in Taiwan or South Korea, and I'm sure it's the same in China. I I I didn't see it when I was 02/2006 was the last time I was in China, so it's changed a lot since then. They have these cages with these tiny, tiny dogs because most people live in apartments. Right? So it's always tiny, tiny dogs rather than the really big dogs. But, you know, I I'll see dogs that basically, there's snow dogs in the tropics and, you know, huskies, mountain dogs, Burmese mountain dogs. And it's like, they shouldn't be in a hot tropical environment. That's not right. It must be, you know, it's so uncomfortable for them. They they're shedding their fur all the time. It's yeah. It's it's it's hard. But we can't all have pets. We can't all have cars. We can't all have a hundred new items of clothing a year. We can't all eat beef every night. We just can't. We just can't. The the planet can't sustain it. Yes. We cannot all we cannot all have all the things that we want. And the best thing to figure out is actually to to focus on what really matters. Appreciate And maybe you get appreciate who's the genius in you. Mhmm. And be that genius. Alright. So what else do we got? I'll tell Jett so, we might we it it might take all our time to do this, I think. I thought I wasn't sure how I thought we could get this done in an hour. What do you think? You wanna keep going? I think it's important I think it's important because, you know, it's the reason I wanted to do it is, just keep just getting people to think about what it is that they can do that's different that contributes. But, what do you think? Do you wanna keep going? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think let's do that because, you know, the the whole or or or the other things we thought of as kind of the big issues of the world and and all the rest of it, you know, at the heart of it, they're kind of superficial. They they they focus us. They don't really get us to kind of think and ask the real questions, you know, the the questions that allow us to be and better understanding of who we are ourselves. Not not we are in general, but who am I? You know? That's that's wisdom. Yeah. That's the thing that says, I don't need to make this trip. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tripp. So this this for me is so someone from Australia who just you know, from a young age, I was I just wanted to get out there and see the world. So I've flown far more than, I I I I have a right to have done in my life from an emissions perspective. So, you know, I'm always trying to work out how to how to pay that back. And so one of the things you can do in The UK, I don't know if you if you know this, you can plant a sequoia tree. So they basically worked out that there's this area in The UK that has a chance of growing these trees. And if you plant one and it's a few thousand dollars to pay to plant it, it it can cancel out a lifetime worth of emissions. So that's that's one one thing you can do, but we we all need to be getting off the planes. And I I was talking, I think I talked in the last show, but, a friend of mine said to me, I like, I really get it, but, you know, like, I I see, especially living in Asia, he goes, you know, there's a, you know, there's a the next million people in India are about to jump on their first plane because they're visiting their kids studying in The US or whatever. So what what difference does it make? But the reality is the the the aerospace industry or the aviation industry can't just keep growing the way it's been growing. It can't just keep growing. You know? So, you know, really starting to think about holidaying closer to home. You know, there was a time when the world was open to everyone, and in a lot of ways, the world is closing to a lot of people because of war, because of geopolitics. I was just hearing about another Australian that got, caught up in in put into a prison in The US for for flying in to visit her husband for three weeks. But flights, not only do they contribute to emissions, but they also, the the overtourism is just off the charts, and we're hearing a lot more about that in Europe. The Spanish government have basically just rescinded the licenses of, I I think it was 60,000. There there was a it was one of the articles that I had at the end. 65,000 Airbnb holiday listings. So, you know, countries are starting to get serious about it. It's in it's contributing to, the the housing shortage. It destroys the the heart of cities. Cities like Amsterdam really suffered from it. But the other thing is people like me who've been to all of these places when there weren't that many tourists, people like me that now we wanna get off the beaten track where there's not any tourists yet. But that's, you know, means that we're just destroying more and and more of the world. And, you know, like, I I think it just can't keep growing the way it's growing. You we used to have a frequent flyer system where I actually think we should have a frequent flyer system now that the more you fly, the more you have to pay for it. So I think we have to reverse it, but and I I and and for me, this this was one that, I mourned, you know, when I really sat down and went, I need to stop flying whenever whenever is possible. I really haven't flown that much since, basically, since before COVID. Just small flights between Phuket and Singapore as we were moving here, but, I've really tried to, cut it down. But I'm in Asia. I'm Australian. I have to go to Australia sometimes. My husband's English. He has to go to England sometimes. And, but we are very conscious every time we jump on a plane, and we just try not to do it unless we need to. Have you have you both cut back? I I I've got I've cut back in in in many ways. But, I mean, you know, the the the couple couple of things following from what you're saying. First thing, the first thing I would say is be wary about offsetting along. You know, we lose No. No. Hectares of forests a year in the world. Yeah. And about 5,000,000 less than 5,000,000 is regrown. So Yeah. There's a gap before. So when you you throw a new supplier tree, you're not offsetting. You're just I know. We've Trust me, David. No. I I I'm not a believer in offsetting. It's just it's something you can do. And that was more for past emissions rather than future. Right? Just like I've I've I've already done this damage. How can how can I make up for it? So I'm always and and and this work is making up for it. You know? And the the the other part to that is, you know, we we live in the context of people, we are. So I live with my family, my wife, and, and, you know, my my kids and so on. A lot of travel travel is either business or is holidays. Right? Mhmm. So so you end up thinking, how do I do that? How do I organize my lifestyle so that I can do something else? I had a conversation with, with with a friend who was talking about how he wants to go to New Zealand. But he says it makes no sense to make a trip unless you can be there for, like, two months. So he's planning it so that he can be there in that way. And he's thinking about that just simply because just think about ticking all that journey. You know? If if if if it takes you a minute to go down the shops, you don't mind spending, you know, a minute to buy whatever it is coming back off or whatever it is. But if it takes you, you know, six hours to go somewhere and cost you whatever much it does or twelve hours from here to New Zealand in in that way. And you're gonna be there. Something like that. Right? You know? And you're gonna Twenty four hours at least. But twenty four hours, if you if you can't have the direct flight time, you can go that way. And and so you you you go along and you just gotta make it worthwhile in proportion. And Yeah. I think this goes to the sense of saying, what I'm the the journey counts. Just think about it as the journey part of it counts too rather than what you do there. Yeah. No. So what that's like you know, when when they talk about, travel and tourism, one of the things is stay as long as you can and, you know, while you're there, you know, so if I go to Europe to visit my in laws, I I'll take my boys, and we'll travel on train around Europe because you can. But you can't you can't do that here. But I am gonna catch the train from Singapore to London. It's gonna take twenty one days if I go straight. I'm not gonna do that straight. I'm gonna do it at some point. But, you know, the you know, there's no infrastructure in place to make that journey easy, and there's a couple of war zones on the way to have to sort of factor factor in as well. Right? But, yeah. So, you know, make make account when you're there. You know? But, like like, the, like, the flights, you know, the the the hotel industry, it just keeps growing and growing and growing and growing, and we can't just keep growing. Everything's just growing. And at some point, we've gotta go, come on, guys. Like, this is enough. You know? There's enough hotels in Phuket. We don't need any more hotels in Phuket. There there's a thing to bring out is, so ANA, the Japanese airline, you know, back in twenty fifteen, sixteen or something. I can't remember I mentioned it in my new book, Thrive and Emergent or not. Probably did. Yeah. I think it's part of emergent change and and so on, discussion on that. It's an airline. So he's asking, you know, what can we do as an airline? What should we do? And he was asking, that's the wrong thing to ask. What you need to ask is, what is it that the airline provides? What is it that people need genuinely? And they set up this thing of saying, well, how does a doctor how how can you prove you know, how does a a a place which doesn't have that sort of, you know, expert doctor, whatever it is, be able to have that doctor in that way? If you think as a conventional airline, you think, you know, I can fly in there. You know, I can do a special deal about how it is. And, typically, if it's fine enough away or remote, you then have to build an airport close by or or you end up going to build more roads. You end up building hotels and resorts. And once you start doing that, you end up start saying, you know, now that I've built this, what else do I build on this? And that's the resort sort of mentality in some in some sense. So you you tackle a problem by creating much bigger project out of it than it used to be. So it ray it started raising this thing about avatars and robotics and stuff instead. How can you have the presence of being somewhere remotely, fully as a person? You know, you can smell the air. You can feel the heat and all the rest of it. You can operate in that way. And today, you can actually operate remotely, you know, as a doctor carrying out surgeries in in that form. You don't need to travel there anymore. We don't and Anon as an air as an airline went down that route and then created this whole set of competitions to have people really challenge them about how you can have that presence, remote presence. That is genuinely actually, you know, very, very much real experience, in in that way. That was 2016 2015, '20 '16 before COVID, before Zoom, and all all of these things that really popped up before. And it came from addressing how do we how do we develop as a business, as an airline business, but then it's so it's not an airline business. It's a air it's a business about helping people experience, having the experience that they need to have. That's different from saying I'm an airline business, so I have to keep planes flying. Yeah. So, the airline, gets a lot of pushback, you know, when you when you bring it up as a sustainability issue because, you know, people still need to fly and they're gonna need to fly. Right? And and they absolutely are, but like I said, you know, may maybe every single person on the planet has a has a quota every year for flying. Every single person. Because the vast majority of people never get on a plane. Right? And so every time you fly, once you've used your quota, you pay a quota. You you you contribute to the quotas of the people that don't fly. And, obviously, the majority of them are in the developing world who were never gonna get a plane on their life. So maybe that's a way that we can start sort of building up some some revenue that can go out to the developing world where where where they can actually use it to, enhance their lives. But we've gotta do something, but we can't keep growing. And the one of the one of the areas that's obviously, a big one is the cruise ships. So one in four Australians are expected to take a cruise this year, and lots and lots of my friends love their cruises. They love getting on with their mates and having a a a fantastic time, and they do. But it really is a form of tourism that's gotta go. Everywhere cruise ships show up, they destroy the environment that they turn up in. And, you know, we're seeing, obviously, a lot of protests. Amsterdam is one of the ones that's turned the the cruise ships away. The but they burn 250 tons of heavy fuel every year, and the typical passenger on a cruise ship uses eight, sorry, generates eight times more emissions than a tourist on land. But there was a big cruise ship exhibition in China, I think it was late last year, for cruise ships to Antarctica. So come on, guys. You know? So that's kind of the the the the next slide. You know? Every everywhere we go, we destroy nature. Do we really need thousands, millions of people turning up in Antarctica? I just that just just doesn't feel right to me. So have you I've been on one cruise ship. It was a nightmare. I hated every minute of it. I had the only anxiety attack I've ever had in my life when I got on it. It's just not me. It was too corny. I know people love it, but, and my boys were really young, so it was the easiest way I could take them and see the great sights of Europe, but I hated it. But it was when I was on that cruise ship, I think it was in 02/2018, that I actually started to look into the environmental impact of cruise ships and was quite quite amazed by what I found. But have I have you been on cruises? I I have. I've and and I went we went many times, actually, and it was, it was great. And it was the first one was my my dad got all of us. So this is my siblings, our children, our partners, together as the first one, I think it was his, it was a kind of a wedding anniversary for the for for my parents. And so we we went on this Cunard trip, and it was, we we we we all dreaded it beforehand. We thought everybody would fight with everyone, and we fought with everyone. But it was just a great opportunity to be traveling together without having to do the traveling in in that way. So so there's something that's definitely very good about that. And I think this brings out the the element that you you're kind of pointing to, which is that we don't see the cumulative effect of everyone doing it. Yeah. And it's only when you go to somewhere like, you know, Venice or some place and you see the whole place being swamped by that you sort of think, gosh. This is just excessive. And the the thinking is always they are excessive. Yeah. Yeah. I I I'm doing it myself. What I'm doing is in moderation, but they are the ones who's excessive. Yeah. And and that's the the problem. That's the difficulty. That's the part where what the cruise ships what they're pointing out is is the aspect that actually we don't have a right to go to everywhere in the world. Antarctica. You know? Yeah. We we we don't have a right to go there. It it doesn't mean that somehow it's being there and there's been explorers and all those things means that it is somehow everybody there to do. And it comes back down to how do we wanna spend our money, how do we wanna think about where we go to in in that way. Lots of places control now are beginning to control the number of people in that way. So that is In Europe, yeah, but, it's certainly not happening out in Asia. It's all about it's all about get more people and get more people, and we need the money. We need I mean, the Thailand Tourist Bureaus just announced that there's a massive drop off of Chinese tourists. And that's that's that's gonna have a huge impact on on the economy because tourism is so important to Thailand. Right? So they're desperately trying to get people in. And, there's two you know, one of there were two there's just too many people, building, not just resorts, but villas. The roads can't cope. The the infrastructure, like sewage, can't cope. There's not enough water. You know, it's it's it's it just can't cope, and you've you've gotta destroy nature to pro to provide that. So the very thing that you go there for is destroyed in the making of it. So, but, you know and the other thing about cruise ships is, of course, you know, a lot of places around the world rely on on the money that comes in, you know, those ports. Even though their their environment has been destroyed, they still rely on the money. I mean, you know, so so this this goes back to the whole whole whole point we were pointing out saying before about fast sustainability. Yeah. You know, you you you have to actually look at it holistically along. And and the point about going back about the comment or ANA is you have to look at understanding what people are actually after in that way and what you deliver. We tend to replicate the means because we've been taught that's what we do. That's that's basically all of our education. Japan was different in terms of its technology, you know, kind of whatever it was called, society two point o or some or five point o or whatever it is, as a as a as a technology policy to say, actually, it's about the people and connecting with the people first. And then we start thinking, how can we do that? What does that actually mean? How can we actually give room for each other so that they can be who they are genuinely, and that includes giving room for nature to be genuinely what it is without having to think of that as being an opportunity for us. Yeah. Because it's not it's not going to be. You know? It it it it provides plenty. We just need to rethink our own our own pace in in that way. So human human free zones is you know, this is this is the essence of kind of that Thriva economy that, you know, we we we talk about Yeah. In that way. You you make you reinvent money by by keeping by minting it from nature that's intact, that's untouched. And you you remake investments so that they come from having to have some part of nature contributed by nature as being intact that is preserved in that way before the investment start. We do it the other way around. We do all the damage, and then we say, how can we patch it back up? So we we really good mandates. Yeah. And I'm sure you mandates. But you've said, you know, sticking with the cruise ships, I'm sure you've seen those mega cruise ships that are coming out of Miami these days. Right? It's just no. We can't we we just can't. We can't keep doing that. They're horrible. Spring breaks cruise ships. The ones we went to were sort of you know, my my parents like that. You know, there there are differences. They they carry fewer people. They had more spaces. They they have quieter crowds. They have kind of very different sort of vibe in that sense. And its its intention was as much to to to have the quiet of the traveling rather than to have a, you know, what you call it, kind of the the fun fare inside your traveling. Yeah. But but it is one of those things It's one of those things we gotta look at, like, you know, the way it's growing, you know, and it's great. It's it's an industry that's growing rapidly. But there's the other side, which is, of course, the impact. So we've lost Richard. He doesn't know what's happening. So if if you can hear us, Richard, join us again if you want. If you can get back in, he said everything's dead. But, you know, there is gonna be an impact on people on on the other side of this, but there's gonna like, right across the board, everything that we're talking about, there is an impact on people, from an economic perspective, but there's an impact on all of us from an environmental extreme perspective. So, you know, or, you know, just all the toxins in our bodies, you know, they're moving towards sterility because, you know, all of the, you know, novel entities that are in the environment. You know? So the the there's there's always impacts both ways, and, and we need to be factoring them in. You know? Like, if we all move away from fast fashion, well, there's a lot of people sitting in, China, Cambodia, Laos who are reliant on incomes for making those clothes. Can we're not gonna be able to keep all of them in business, but if we if we can get them to if we can pay them more and get them to make that take longer to produce, You know, is that a solution? But, you know, so we've got this none of this is easy. I think those you know, I I think those those arguments are very deceptive. They they because what it is is that when you it is only because you cannot do what you're used to doing that you discover what you can really do. And that's what China team is telling us. That's what nature is telling us. You can't keep doing this. It doesn't matter how you wanna argue it. We're not gonna be able to. So, you know, that's that's the reality. What's Nestle going to do when the agriculture system collapses? The industrial system collapses. It's gonna go bankrupt. When a company like Nestle goes bankrupt, all sorts of things go bankrupt. Yeah. And and ripples on. You know, and and In one way or another. Right? Right. That's the reality of it. So so it doesn't matter to say, oh, we gotta sustain all those things. Well, you know what? Nature has got a bigger hand. And it's saying, f you. You know? And and and and and, totally with you, David. But but it is one of the things that keeps coming up, and, everyone's looking for the solutions to those problems for the for the people that are gonna be impacted. And it's like, if if thirty years ago, we could have solved that problem. Yes. And we're now too late. Yeah. So there's gonna be pain. It's gonna it's gonna hurt, and we and we can't get away from it. And I think that's really important. So the other thing that do, and I just wanna throw in there. What you gotta do is to ask how can we allow people to be genuinely who they are. Yeah. Because they're not factory workers. Yeah. How do we allow people to be genuinely who they are? How do we give them the room to be able to do that? Yep. And that's and that's where things like universal basic income can come in. I I have another idea where, you know so my boys or my oldest has started national service. I think one of the things that we could do is do environmental service where we get all the young people. When they finish school for two years, they've gotta go out wherever they live in the world and be part of environmental service where they regenerate nature. They bring the communities together. They learn skills. They learn how to sew. They learn the basic stuff that, you know, we need to survive. I think there's lots of different ways we can do it. So the next one is, exposing yourselves to poisons in your home. So this is something I embarked on a number of years ago where, I was really looking so at the time, we had Anivik, our wonderful Aunty Vic living with us, and, together, we basically went through and worked out well, she did most of the work, I gotta be honest, because she's just one of those people. But all these potions and lotions in the house that, meant that we were just getting all of the stuff, that wasn't good for us out of the home, so all the chemicals, all that sort of stuff. But also the amount of plastics in the home, like you were talking about, David, that plastic water bottle that you got or even your contact lenses. When they're plastic so if you refill a plastic water bottle, it constantly sheds microplastics so so that you're drinking it. If you put the plastic sort of, contact lens things in the bottom of the plants, you're gonna have microplastics in your plants. So, you know, so sort of things. So whatever you can do, just get the stuff out of your home. So I am almost at the point where I can convince my husband to get rid of the frying pans we've got because they've got forever chemicals on them. So I'm like I've been saying it for years, but it's this is another really important thing. Don't sit in total paranoia about this stuff all the time because you won't literally, there's no food food or vegetables. There's no meat. There's no fish. There's there's no there's no items in your kitchen that you can use or there's no clothes that you can wear without being paranoid about it impacting your body in some way. We're all already impacted, so don't don't be too paranoid about it. But I'm trying to get rid of the forever chemicals as well. So I recommend, understanding what novel entities are, and the best place to go is to look at the nine planetary boundaries. I talked about them in the, the very first edition I did of we need a new middle class dream. But, yeah, just try and get rid of vinegar is your best friend, baking soda as well. I buy I buy those in, like, in in big lots. So, there's lots you can do. Have you have you gotten rid of all that sort of stuff? I bought the frying pan, and it it it, brought back, some things you used to do and and you come along with this. And how do you use a frying pan? So a lot of it comes back down to how you use it and understanding that. So traditional Chinese, you always heat the pan up. Right? Heat the wok up until it's really hot. Then you put the oil on it. So you don't put the oil on it before it's really hot. And then you turn the heat down and you put stuff in there. And because it is really hot, it sears it and it doesn't stick. So it naturally doesn't stick in that way. So we're gonna go back to those traditional methods again. Right? What the nonstick Teflon stuff does is the opposite because it can't withstand that heat without peeling off in that way. It tells you not to heat it up. Mhmm. So we have whole generation brought up without actually appreciating how to do that. It's like the old gauntlet pen, you know, that you keep forever made of art made of, you know, that sort of cast iron heavy gauntlet pen. Cast iron heavy because it keeps the heat in in that way, and you set up again, and then you don't have to actually do too much to it. It can't practically cleanse itself in in that way. And and so most of the things that we have traditionally evolved over hundreds of years in our kitchen tools and all of those things work and and enlighten the workload that we need. And we have had probably about three, four, five decades of being persuaded actually that something is better instead. Yeah. And Well, it makes it makes your life easier. Right? Except it's not No. Exactly. But it's the middle class housewife post World War two. Oh, buy this. It's gonna make your life easier. Buy this. It's gonna make and then all of a sudden, everyone's got all these new technologies, which they are. That's the point. It's this they make their lives easier. And here we are today. No one's having no one's got an easy life. Everyone's running a million miles an hour. And now we've got this new technology, AI, that's gonna make our lives easier. I have not seen a single technology revolution that actually makes their lives easier. It just adds more stuff that we could do in our life. Yes. You know? And and so what it does is it accelerate it it shortens the time in between that we have between doing things so that we we and and increases the pressure and increases the selling pressure, you know, the whole marketing that we talked about before. Yep. And and the basis of it, again, back to this right to have, is playing on this idea of a right to have Yeah. With a right to an easier life. So that makes us sort of think, oh, I should be able to have that. I should be able to have that. I should be able to have that because that says I have a easier life. As a result, you end up chasing around to have enough money to be able to buy all those things. Yep. And that's how it keeps going. Yeah. But we are being asked to slow down. Really, we're being asked to slow down. That's what a lot of the message is. So the the other thing we can we can quickly go through this one is making sure your home's energy efficient. And, obviously, for people who don't have a lot of money, this is hard. So we've really gotta push the governments to subsidize this. So, you know, independent energy is gonna be absolutely critical. Yeah. You know, there's gonna be a lot of people who are gonna die in the coming heat waves when the grids go down. So if you can have an independent energy source, so you can at least run one air conditioning unit when, when when the grid goes down, you might have a chance of surviving. Or Richard's back, I think. This is really important. I mean, you you say it's absolutely right, and I can't emphasize. I I've just been in Germany. We stayed with a couple of friends. They all have kind of independent solo in that way, in in in that way. So some countries are doing it and, you know, and and this is the thing. Right? So so what should government subsidize and what should they not subsidize? And this is really key along in there. Now I did this quick calculation, basically, that took a look at The UK Government spending commitments of spending on carbon capture. And that money can provide the majority of households in this country with independence over. Yeah. That would probably make more of a contribution. But it doesn't do that. Right? Because there's some mate of theirs who's goes along and says, you know, do this as a great business. It creates new new whatever it is in that way. The consequence of it is that the carbon capture encourages more emissions and accelerates the pace at which people are gonna end up dying because they don't have an independent energy because grids are going to go down. Yep. They will go down. Not on the At some point, I'm gonna I'm gonna do a video, and I meant to do it, when I was in Phuket, and I just ran out of time. But I wanna show most people who have been to the developing world have seen the electric electrical infrastructure where it's just this big wire bunch of wires. Right? But they're but they're always black. Right? And so, like, in India, what what would happen in a stream heat wave is those electrical cables, they start to sag. And if you if they sag and and the and the environment that they sag into is dry, then they can also turn into fires. And in the tropics where fires aren't actually that common, they are now, they don't have the firefighting infrastructure that that most countries like a country like Australia is used to fires. Right? But even in Australia, the what they've got might be ready for the fires that are gonna come based on the acceleration that we're seeing. So yeah. So and and and a lot of the electricity is still above ground. So independence, like, all all of all of my friends in Phuket who are building houses or villas would, like, get solar. Just get solar. Please just get solar. Be be be off the grid if you can. You know? Yes. And and this is the thing, what you described there about the the wire sagging or the rest of it. Right? So Richard and I used to be investment managers managing portfolio. When something unexpected happens, it always hurts you. Yeah. So why is that? It's because you have already priced in the best case of what can happen. That's why you are in that. So when something you expect to happen, it's unlikely to be something better than what you're already expecting. So it always end up hurting you. And that's the same as our rollout, as our plan forward. We're already painting the best picture. So the only unexpected thing that you can expect is something terrible. Yeah. Because you're already so far in the right hand of distribution where you've won the lottery. Everything is going perfectly. And you place yourself in this belief that this is where it is. So anything unexpected happens like the wire syncing doesn't just sync, it's gonna cause a fire. Doesn't just cause a fire, it's gonna burn the whole village down. It doesn't just burn the whole village down. It's gonna stop the logistics from being able to transport whatever it is from a to b that you need. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thinking through it. Right? And by the way, one of the things you could do if you live in a if you live in a country where you don't have the money, Paint your roof white. Make sure there's you know, there there's stories for in, in India at the moment. The poorest people yeah. The but the poorest people in India, you know, they're they're going through such an extreme heat event right now, and it's it's really early, and it's really gonna be extended. And, you know, they'll they'll live in a in a room that's basically smaller than the room that I'm sitting in with the family of four, and everything's there, and they got one fan. And there is no fresh air, and then they go outside. There's nowhere to get cool, especially if they're in the cities. There's no trees. Then it you know, greening the cities is obviously a critical thing, and and the wealthy areas of those cities are definitely greened. The paint your roof white. There's a lot of charities doing some amazing work, but it's obviously not happening fast enough. But, yeah. Green your own space, and I I I have this thing. I want an engineer to to, you know, connect and and do together kind of thing. Right? So Yeah. It's really hot out there. So you you go along and you create a heat chimney that draw that draws that draws air by actually being black and it causes air to go going up. You can Yep. I reckon you in the heat, you can get quite a lot of, flow out of it. Yeah. So on the other side of it, you bring air in and cool it. And you cool it by thermodynamics. You let it expand. You let it come through a narrow tube and expand into the big space. As it expands, it cools. Yep. So there's a lot of traditional there's a lot of traditional technology that can be brought in that's cheap. And and we we when we do see a lot of it, but it's not enough. The other thing about extreme heat is, of course, it's gonna cause long term medical conditions. Because if your body's constantly in overheat, even if it doesn't kill you, it could lead to things like needing kidney dialysis. You know? So it organ damage is a big risk of it. For for women who are pregnant, I I'd really encourage societies around the world with extreme heat to really look at the time of year when women probably should try not to be pregnant because, they're, you know, they're losing their babies. They're losing their lives. So it's yeah. There's a there's a lot of factors to it. The next one, which I know you that you will both appreciate is start a garden. If you live in a community, start a community garden. It's really important to get some self sufficiency here. Food security, it's it's a it's a huge issue that's only gonna become a bigger issue. You know, we saw some floods in Brazil that have wiped out, soy, which which obviously feed cattle, which is how we get our meat, you know, so that the the web of connections between these extreme events and our food supply are only growing. I know Richard and David, this is a big, big passion topic for both of you as well. Because, Richard, you've been off for a while. Would you wanna jump in? Absolutely. Happy to. You know? Some something happened with the French connectivity, but it could also have been me. What do I know? Food is is is really crucial, and I'm very much in the camp. David's very much in the camp where we think global food production will be increasingly constrained by climate and other factors as well, to be fair. You know? We we are at a very rapid rate taking away arable land to to build various structures, mostly cities and and other things, and and it will become a problem. So anything you can do on a private level to increase that food security, and it doesn't need to be much again. It's a lot easier for someone like me with this with a house that I have a greenhouse. It's pretty big. I have a garden where I can plant a lot of stuff. But even if you don't have access to that, there's still things you can do in an apartment. Yeah. And it's gonna become increasingly important that you actually have some form of food supply coming that you can control because we know exactly what the reaction function will be in the world when food becomes scarce at the national level. There will be export constraints. All the frictions that come in that will make it harder and harder for people to actually find what they need in shops, and prices will go up. So it will become economically more valuable for you to actually have some form of food production you can control. Absolutely. And and it's it's, you know, on on on two things, the prices and also on the food production itself. Right? So so the China has been buying Australian wheat, the past month because it is fearing about some pre wheat production. Now it may catch up. It may be okay, but in anticipation, it's doing that. That wheat was gonna be bought by someone else. So whoever that person is is now gonna have a higher price. So I said, sorry, mate. You know, your pasta is gonna cost more, or the rest of your bread is gonna cost more from now on. And that's just how it's gonna hurt your pocket. It doesn't have to be your farm that is suffering. It doesn't have to be your kind of specific area that's suffering. When it's happened somewhere else, everything is so interconnected. They can do do their best to try and cope, and in that way, it's gonna drive up your price. So that's why you having some means of food production means that you'll be less exposed to the cost of your food going up. And that's really important to think about. So then what do you do? Well, the best environment of environment you're most likely to have some control of is inside your own house. So start thinking about what can you grow within there and experiment with it. You have the water that you use. So you you wash your rice, right, before you cook it. Don't pour that water away. Water, use it to water the plant you're growing. That way, you're actually making use of the resources, cutting down your water cost, making sure that even when it gets really dry outside, if you got watered enough to water it to cook your rice, you can actually use the water. You wash it to do that. Yeah. Going back to what Andrea talking about, you know, vinegar and all that stuff. If you use those sort of stuff to do your cleaning and things, then you know that the water you have used from there is okay to use again because it's not full of the chemicals that you fear when you pour pour the stuff on. And you can start treating that in some other way and actually use it again, and plants and vegetables will manage with it. So a lot of those things all come along, and we have lost that art of being able to have green fingers. Yeah. We absolutely did. My parents I mean, my dad had them. So we've got Oliver who who's joining us live for one time. Ollie, he's usually he always listens every week and comments, but, he's talking about, the allotments in The UK, which, of course, are famous from the wars. Right? So my parents in law have an allotment. It's hard to get them, but, that's as a concept. So here, there's these sort of apartment complexes, and they call them HDB, so you own the apartment. And they've got these huge lands at the bottom. Right? And sometimes I'll see on the roof they've got they've got a garden on the rooftop or solar panels on the rooftop or or in the garden, but, you know, setting up community composting. A friend of mine in Sydney, do you remember Johnny? Do you join us when we were yeah. So his wife, Ellie, was they they naturally set up a composting community where they had a big bin. And then the council came in, gave everyone a fancy bin, and then started managing the process. And what they did was destroy the community that had been naturally built around building the compost community. So, you know, like, whatever whatever we can do, wherever we can do it, you know, and doing it now and learning and failing, you know, like, you were talking about leaves before. So I've just we have mint in our tea every day, so I'm always harvesting our mint. But it but I'm I'm trying to work out the best place for it to to to grow. So I've got this new pot going with with all the leaves in the in the soil to create some compost in the environment so that it it looks like it's working. But learning learning again how to grow. You know? Absolutely. I I I came back as as I was saying, I was in Germany, and we we were walking around, and there was this house that was throwing things out. And there's a door that he threw out. Bit of a kind of door screen. And so I picked it up, you know, because we were moving furniture back, so I had had a van. We brought it back. And I have a bit in my house, which is a little bay window that, you know, it's a bay window. It's very nice, but you don't often use it because it sort of sink back in and sticks out a bit. So it's basically about three feet by, you know, five feet kind of size or maybe six. And the door just fits in there or whatever the door size thing's in there. So now I've got a planting space right up there at the level of the windows where the light can get in. I now need to go and get some grow bags or something to put on there and start thinking what do I plant. And it's good for your back too. Yeah. And and I don't put that down low or anything. It's inside, and it is basically a, a mini allotment. Yeah. And I live in the state of London where I can't get those things otherwise. Exactly. So look, there's joy in it. So I I I, plant planted some blue pea, a blue pea. What is it called? It's a it's a purple flower plant from Thailand, and it's oh, I've just gone blank on it. Anyway, I just started, producing some peas the other day, so I was just walking along eating the peas. And there's so something so amazing about growing something that you can then eat. Right? So, yeah, take do it. I'm not so I just wanna keep us moving, but, who are you banking with? You know? Are they invested in the future? And I you know, moving banks is an incredibly difficult thing to do. Right? You you will both know much better than I. You know, this is your future. Are you banking? Are you is your money sitting with someone who's investing in your future or who is taking away from your future? I think that's an important one. It's on the edge. Sorry. Absolutely. It's super, super important, and and it goes back to the choices you make. You know? If if you want the responsibility, and the right to make those choices, you you need to take the other side of it all. So make sure you are happy with the choices you've made just like the hap you're happy with the choices you made with the food you buy, the clothes you wear. Yeah. Bank is just like any other product in that sense. And you should probably also then educate you about what that bank stands for. And it's not the easiest things to do, but it's probably worth the effort if if it matters to you. And that's ultimately what what it falls down to. Yeah. Alright. So I know David's gotta go soon. So, oh, yep. So we've talked about this before, but don't hold wealth, use it. So there's a lot of people holding on to their wealth, saving for a future that doesn't necessarily exist. But if we could use our wealth now to contribute to, you know, our children's future through sustainability efforts in whatever way or shape or form that makes sense to you because all wealth will diminish as, climate extremes accelerate. So I think this is a really important one. Yeah. And and I and I would I would, qualify by saying, you know, you you're facing uncertainty, so you don't know what happens. So so the the sort of thriftiness is a sensible thing. What you need to do, spend your wealth and do it. Don't wait. So so rather than just saying just spend your wealth, because if you do that, you're gonna buy another six generations full of fast fashion clothes. Oh, yeah. No. No. No. No. No. You need to you need to be thrifty about your money. But when you recognize something that's you, that you that is genuinely who you are, then you need to do it. Because if you don't, then you're gonna then you won't. And you won't be able to face the challenges ahead. You need to be able to step forward and you need to be able to allow you, give you the best chance of doing that. And you're wealthy, how to let you do that. But don't spend just on the six ratios of it. I'll give you I'll give you an example. Right? Rather than buying a holiday home, which means a family is not gonna be able to afford a home, go and buy an acre of land and, let it regenerate. You know? Like, do something like that. You know? Yeah. Can attribute. I I absolutely. I think very much of, of the accumulated capital as energy in some form. And and it's tax. So it's valuable. Think about how you invested. Think about what it actually is you're spending about. Don't do it frivolously. Make use of this energy and this gift you got in terms of the capitals. So make sure you use it wisely. Yeah. And and I want to finish up because I I unfortunately need to need to go. So and I want to say that think of the return of your spending, not in terms of the traditional investment returns, but in terms of how that helps you to be a better you. Yep. And, the final thing in I think in this list, let me just quickly go forward. Yep. Because there were some questions next. So we we didn't we we got more than halfway through, so well done. Yeah. But but these are the actions. Right? And, there's there's other things like questions you can ask yourself, and I've got it in a blog. I've got it on LinkedIn. You can find it. But the most important thing is when you start doing things, start talking about what you're doing and why you're doing it. Inspire other people to follow you. Normalize the conversation. Like, this is a really, really important part. This is not a negative thing. This is a beautiful thing. I've been on this journey for a long time. I find I found it a really positive experience. I've done it with my family. My boys are totally bought into it, and they have been since they were quite young. So, you know, normalize the conversation, talk about what you're doing, inspire others. We need 1,000,000,000 people changing imperfectly, so we need to recruit that billion together to get get into action. All of us need to be doing all of these things as as best we can and then inspiring the next three, four million people to get involved as well as, bringing the final 3,000,000 3,000,000,000 out of poverty. So that's, you know, that's our goal. It's not a it's not a small goal. It's a massive goal. But, It is. It's a work goal. Yeah. Massive goal. Finish. Yeah. Yeah. And and, David, just before you go, you guys are about to run a course. And, Oliver, I don't know if he means you want young people. Oliver's not probably young enough for your group, but what are you doing? What's this Thrive workshop? Talk about it. So so over London Climate Action Week, which is from the twenty first to the twenty sixth or something. No. Twenty third to the June 26 of June. We're gonna do three evenings, the twenty fourth, '20 fifth, and twenty sixth, and we're gonna have invite, have people in for a thriving at nature's pace. It's gonna be a very small group, six people, three evenings. That's six people over three. Six people over three. That's six people over three. That's six people over three. That's six people over three. That's six people on for two hours on each of the evenings. Okay. So seven to nine. There will be a small fee to it. You get soup and bread, soup and salad, basic soup, salad and bread, vegan. So we cope with any diet things by avoiding all the diet things. Yeah. Possibly even grown in a garden near you. Yes. And and it's going to go through, the program we we're launching as the Thrive Academy, which is about how young people and young, professionals can be pioneers of what we call a thrive economy. That's an economy that drives at nature's pace. And it's radical. It's not for everybody. It's small deliberately because it's you who count. It's not the numbers. It's intimate so that you can be you. And it's also very challenging because it's like things I've been saying today in in many ways. You know, we we we we we we start by asking where to how do I get the wisdom to know who I am? How do I allow that to motivate me, give me the faith to understand that it's not about the right to have. It's about the right to be who I am, the ability to be who I am. It's not even a right. And from there, how does that turn the whole big economy into something that actually goes at nature's space? Yeah. Sounds awesome. All right. We're gonna let we're gonna we're gonna say goodbye. So when we when we turn up into And to find out more about it, just follow our posts. We're gonna post every day. Yeah. You can find originally David both both on LinkedIn, and and you can find them through me if if that's the connection you need. Thanks for thanks for listening. I thought we would get all the way through. It doesn't matter that we didn't. But, you know, every every single one of us can start somewhere and can do something. It's a joy to do it. I've been doing it for a long time. I've involved my family. This is what we need to do. We really need we need to bring it all down. We need to stop growing the destructive industries, and and we can do this. We can do it. It's not gonna be without pain. But, you know, let's let's recruit a billion people. Come and join us. We're we're we're committed. We're all going about it in different ways, but we're all committed to the to the future of not just for our children, but for all life on this planet. So let's get to work. We can do it. Alright. See you in a few weeks. See you. Bye. Good Friday.