Uncommon Courage
Welcome to Uncommon Courage, the podcast, where we’ll be having the conversations we need to be having as members of the human collective. We are all being called upon to step up and lead – with kindness, big hearts and unshakable courage – because right now, we have an opportunity to redress what we got wrong in the past, as well as deal with the disruptions we face today, to create a better world for all.
However, if we are completely truthful, the biggest challenge we face is believing we can do it – believing in our ability to create massive change. But everyone knows you can’t achieve anything significant without guts, determination, and of course, the courage to keep driving towards the goal, regardless of how hard the journey is!
Uncommon Courage will feature global conversations determined to contribute to creating a better future for all life on earth. Ideas, solutions, arguments and laughs - it’ll all be part of the journey. It is time for that which is uncommon to become common.
#UncommonCourage #AndreaTEdwards
Uncommon Courage
Climate Courage: the air we breathe
New Delhi had an air pollution watch leading up to this year’s Diwali celebrations, with its air quality remaining ‘very poor’ for the 7th consecutive day. Meanwhile, across the border, the Pakistani city of Lahore had to close all primary schools for a week, with the air quality index (which measures a range of pollutants) exceeding 1,000 on Saturday. This is WELL above the benchmark of 300, which is considered "dangerous" by the World Health Organization.
Right across Southeast Asia, a health crisis is unfolding due to coal-fired power plants releasing fine particle pollution, causing millions of premature deaths annually. But it’s deforestation too. In Singapore, Malaysia, and many other neighbouring countries (depending on which way the wind is blowing), the region experiences an annual “haze” season. This happens because tropical forests in Indonesia’s peatlands are intentionally burned, so palm oil plantations can replace them. It causes havoc in the region, including driving many local animals close to extinction – like the Sumatran Tiger and the Orangutan. While not over, stronger action has been taken, and the region hasn’t seen a haze like its worst, which happened in 2015!
Moving up North to Thailand, it also has an annual burning season in the northern regions of Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, resulting in haze sweeping across the country, and for those living in the smoke, it’s deadly. Until you’ve experienced living in this type of pollution, it’s very challenging to describe how terrible it is, but of course, it is also very easy to sit back and say “someone else will sort it out.” Well, our amazing guest this week – Khun Weenarin Lulitanonda aka Weena - is leading from the front and established the Thailand Clean Air Network nearly six years ago, and is fighting with all of her power to get this act passed.
A Senior Consultant for the World Bank, please join us is welcoming Weena to the show, where she will share the work she is doing, what drove her to act, the challenges she faces and what she hopes to achieve. Weena is an inspiration, but also an example of what can be done when someone cares enough. We can all be like Weena.
The air we breathe is vital for all life and we need to prioritize it, so please do join us Friday, 6th November – 2pm Bangkok time, 3pm Singapore time, and 7am UK time.
Climate Courage is a livestream, held every two weeks and is co-hosted by Andrea T Edwards, Dr. David Ko and Richard Busellato. On the show, we cover critical topics across the full spectrum of the polycrisis, in everyday language, and we go big picture on the climate crisis, while also drilling down and focusing on the actions we can all take to be part of the solution. Whether individual action, community action, or national/global action - every single one of us can be part of ensuring a live-able future for our children and grandchildren. We owe them that!
#ClimateCourage #RethinkingChoices #UncommonCourage
To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards
My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage
My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar
Well, welcome to climate courage. My name is Andrea Edwards.
Unknown:I'm David cope,
Richard Busellato:and at the far end you have me Richard Otto,
Andrea Edwards:and I'm sorry, guys, it's now 7am for you, right?
Unknown:Yeah, the the world's the Earth seems to have done the jitter somehow along the way,
Richard Busellato:it's actually eight o'clock for me, because I'm in France. So,
Andrea Edwards:oh, that's okay, all right, competitive. So today we decided it was a really wonderful opportunity to talk about the air we breathe. And I'm going to introduce you to an amazing lady, and I'm I'm just going to say, I'm going to introduce you to couldn't we now? And here she is. Uh, she's in Bangkok, Thailand, and we met on LinkedIn, and I think we somehow found each other, but I can't remember how. But welcome winner, alright, well, we lost. Oh, I mean, I'll get you. You're on mute. There you go. Here we are. There we are. Hello. Hello.
Unknown:Thanks for having me on this this program pleasure. It's
Andrea Edwards:great. And then, and if you look at actually what's happening at the moment, I know it's not too polluted in Bangkok at the moment, but in Lahore, just yesterday, they announced hundreds of people are in the emergency rooms at hospitals with pollution problems, and they've well, well exceeded 1000 whatever that measurement is, of the amount of particulates in the air. And I think for a lot of people around the world, you might experience like, maybe fire, the smoke from fire and that pollution. But when you actually get into a really hazy environment, it's, it's, it's a really horrible thing I've experienced in Singapore. I've experienced in Thailand, your eyes itch. I mean, in China, in 2006 I remember I felt like I had poison dripping down the back of my throat the whole time. So, yeah, I'm very much looking forward to hearing what you're going to say, but first of all, tell us about you.
Unknown:Okay, so I'm a economist and a finance professional by training, so I've worked in different fields. I started life actually in investment banking, and then moved into Portfolio Management and then private equity, specifically with the World Bank Group, so within a the private sector and the World Bank Group, International Finance Corporation, so doing investments in very interesting parts of the world. And it was this time to come home, and so I came back to Thailand. Always wanted to get involved in sustainability, and I still am involved in that space, definitely, but particularly related to so I'm with the World Bank Group currently. So I do a lot of work right now, currently focused on governance issue. Previously, I was doing stuff related to private sector development policy, work for Thailand, as well as for SME analysis work as well. So now, in relation to the air pollution side of things, that this all kind of happened kind of accidentally about seven years ago, I've always been cognizant of air quality is not, not the best. And I was actually training for, at that point, I wanted to run for the Paris marathon, and I was training at the end of the year. And it was, you know, it's usually a cooler time the year, good time if you're a runner, you know, you like to be out and about running, and I started noticing I was having these really terrible headaches just going away. And they were, like, really, really pain, painful migraines, right? I could honestly, I could not function. I couldn't work. Was taking, you know, headache medicine. It was just wasn't going away. So I started digging around, looking on online, checking on, you know, air quality measures. And it was showing levels that were quite alarming. But the worst part was that it was took about maybe two to three weeks from when I noticed I myself had health impact, when the government started warning people, saying, you know, there's cool air outside that you guys are experiencing. And this, it's it's more, it's actually polluted, polluted air. And my family, you know, I've got nephews who get really terrible news leads, and they get it every, every air pollution season, so that it sort of really came from at a personal level, just thinking, Well, you know, I just need to have that basic information to work on. I need to make basic life decisions. And I don't even have that. And I think I was also, I was also aware of particulate matter 2.5 had joined a sort of a workshop run by an NGO, and they were talking about this, and I knew that PM, 2.5 wasn't included in the air quality index in Thailand, and I knew they were not measuring it for factories that I didn't know, right? But I thought, you know, with my knowledge, I could be able to protect myself, actually, not, because the times that I go running in the morning is actually one of the worst times. Worst times for particulate matters, you know, things like that. So it all started with me saying, hey, this problem is really big. People we all need to breathe. You know, there will be people who, who's working on this, right? Whether I'm looking around and then it's like doing it on the fringes, right? So the government would start. Of like spraying water here in Bangkok when air quality gets bad, which doesn't actually do anything, you know, or, or they'll say, you know, put on a mask. And I'm like, but it's much bigger than that. So sort of started with me asking around, and then, sort of, and then Joining Forces, a lot of people who are independently trying to do something quite concerned. So our core group has about nine people right now, sort of in the real core group, but we work in a big network, so our network is much, much bigger than that. But I have my team. I've got I've got an environmental lawyers, human rights lawyer. I've got a solid, solid team, but four or five lawyers in the team. I've got a medical doctor who's also a human anthropologist by training. It's phenomenal. I've also got an incredible environmental economist in our team. I've got mass communications people. We also work collaboratively with air pollution specialists. Because, you know, this issue is so complex, it's so multifaceted. It's a cross cuts across so many industry and you do need experience from so many different people to try to solve this, because at the end of the day, it's a it's a massive structural problem in Thailand, but it's also a global issue. And then that's what piques my interest, because it's like, oh, you know, this is something much, much bigger. One of my one of my colleagues, described it as, you know, you think, you think you have a cold, but it's actually, it's actually the earliest signs of cancer, but we're still treating it like it's just a cold, but it's much, much more serious. That's sort of how we started and we looked into, how do we touch this? How do we tackle this? A lot of my co founders are quite experienced, and they've looked into this. So we started from beginning. We said, We'll touch what no one wants to do. We'll do the things that is so too difficult, but it's necessary, and that is to push on legislation, because Thailand doesn't have a clean air legislation at all.
Andrea Edwards:Yeah. All right, so we, we are going to dig into this in a lot more detail, but first, let's focus on the big environmental news that's happening this week. And of course, how can we talk about anything other than the US election? And I want to go first this time. So I've said for a few weeks, I think it's absolutely going to be a Kamala win. 310, to 312 is my prediction, but I think that's what Trump looks like he might be ended up getting so, you know, and I've obviously spent a few days since the election just really digging into how could I have gotten it wrong? And there's a lot of discussion going on at the moment, and we get, you know, I don't think the outcome will change no matter what. One of the big things that's happening is the discussion about the number of votes. So Biden won in 2020 with 81,000 and Trump got 74,000 Trump got less in 2024 with 72 and a half, sorry, million. Not 1072, and a half million, but Kamala only got basically 68 million. And so that's the question, where are those 20 million votes? Where have they gone? So there's a lot of things going on there. There's about 330 legal cases I've heard. But I think what's more important is, well, first of all, I think it's really important that if you missed this outcome, understanding why, which is what I've spent a lot of time trying to do. But the other side of it is, I try not to get involved in US domestic policies. I think we're going to see some pretty horrible and sad things happening over the coming years within the country, but it's the bigger global impact when it comes to the climate. You know, we've got cop 2628 which 2929 Yeah, coming up, and there's quite a few international leaders have already said they're not going to be attending. So it's, it kind of almost feels like that's everyone's giving up on cop, including the activists. I mean, I think Greta, I think, said something about it just being a useless event, but I know, David, you want to kick us off. What do you think when you look at the impacts of the US election on moving forward from a climate perspective?
Unknown:Well, cop, 29 starts Monday. So you know, the US election office is very relevant because Trump pulled out of the Paris Agreement. The that's kind of like, you know, one of the things that he did, and Biden immediately came back in. I'm pretty sure that as soon as gets settled that's gonna, he's gonna pull it out again. And that's very relevant, because, and you'll probably pull out of the UN f triple C altogether, and he will probably restrict funding to the UN as well. His policy is very, very simple, if we got money, we're going to spend it internally, and where we don't have money, we're going to impose tariffs and other places and tell the world that they got to pay their share in this, which in some sense is a reasonable thing. He did that with NATO, and he said, Look, if you guys don't pay 2% of your GDP, you're not going to have NATO. And I checked yesterday, in pretty much all countries, except for maybe a handful, are on that 2% that at the moment, and that's entirely as a result of, don't look, you're not going to have NATO if you don't actually pay for that. In that way, we've caught the issue and climate, gender, the issue is that people have been thinking they can solve this with money. And this really dates back. We go back over its history to kind of the thoughts in the 70s, that really we can fix this by, you know, getting ahead of the problem, and money will help us get ahead of that problem and the development across different regions of the world will help us. And that actually goes into, you know, the most important thing we do every day. What's the most important thing we do every day? Is the air we breathe. That's the most important thing that we do every day, everybody, everywhere. And it goes into that too, because it's part of the contributory process of exactly how we get into this thing. So we're going to find that the calls for the trillions is actually not going to meet anyone saying we can pay. Because so far, it's been expecting that US will somehow pay for this, because they're the richest country. If they pull off the process, other countries will look at it and say, We're poor. Money's not coming. What's the point? Other rich countries saying shit, we're going to be lumbered with all of the bill. We can't afford to do that. What we're going to do. So it's really significant as a move, because that's go back down to what are you calling for? Here's where we Richard and I tend to take a slightly different view, in fact, a radically different view from climate agenda, per se. We say that it's not about it's not about fixing climate change, because we're already too late for that is right in front of us. You know, Thailand, the temperatures that you have there, it's almost impossible for people to work outside for parts of the year, the storms that have been hitting us and all those things, they're all climate change in that way, it's about understanding what it means for people to thrive in all the different places. What is it that gives them that connection to each other, to the environment around them, to their own dignity, about what thriving is, and that is different from a call for money. So until we have that switch along, for for me, in this sort of climate agenda, we are going to keep thinking it's about more technology is about more economy, when really is about how we all connect with each other in this case. So in that sense, it's a forcing it along into the direction. But I've always felt that climate change will force it, and the way it forces it is that it makes our cost of living increase. It just increases the cost. When your house has just been damaged by storms, you know, whether it's a window that's been blown out or whatever it is, cost you to fix it, and your insurance going to go up. And when you apply for the insurance to try and help, and next year is going to go on up. And you know when, when? When regions like Thailand, which produces a lot of rice for growth, sees the temperature problems and, in fact, the air quality so you can't work outside, and all those things which is also related to a lot of the problems that contribute to this climate situation, you're going to find costs increasing. So for me, what it is is we're heading down a direction of felt for a while that we will end up going down. The individual players will come. They will differ in their names, but the situation is actually global, and the only real response is how people themselves go along and say it's not a question of nation versus nation. It's a question of how we as people of the planet feel about our planet. Richard,
Richard Busellato:yeah, not surprisingly, I tend to share, you know, David's views. I think if we're looking at the election outcome, I think it's probably a very good thing that we will not drag this through courts and have a fourth sort of a stalemate over the next couple of months. Because I think on the face of it, Trump's margin is decisive enough that it will not be in dispute that you want. And I think that's a good thing, because the worst thing would be a world effectively in limbo because you don't know who's going to take charge in January. But obviously the agendas from from Harris and Trump are very different. And like David said, I think Trump taking charge will actually force a lot of these issues. And I'm trying to be quite optimistic here, because I think there is a path of optimism in all this, that we are effectively going to close the door to government intervention and government legislation. Because. Because there isn't any money and and us certainly will not be the ones paying. I think that is fairly clear from from the whole agenda Trump is rolling out, and that will actually force the responsibility onto individuals globally to say, okay, there is no money coming and it's here in front of us, how do we approach it, and what can we actually do? And that, for me, if it was to happen, would be a very good thing, because ultimately it is all about individual responsibility and not shying away from it. Then we can argue what this means politically around the world, etc, but I think that's a different story, but we are going to see a US that becomes far more domestically focused, and is in some ways going to abandon the role of the global police that we, certainly in my lifetime, have grown accustomed to seeing a backstop that has been governed through NATO by the US, and I think that will probably also change, and I'm unsure what that means. To be honest,
Andrea Edwards:Weena, what do you think you're on? Mute.
Unknown:Yeah, it's uncertain times. I guess it always begs the very first question, and I'm glad I'm not a parent of a young child in the US. How do you answer the question of, How does somebody with 34 felony counts still pending still be qualified even to have the name on the ballot? I mean, that's a very simple question from the very start, right? I mean, the whole governance structure is in question. I also think looking at the US politics, people, I think in the US in general, are just sick of this big money politics, this big this two, two party duopoly that's just covering everything, and a sense of their voices aren't being heard. So I think part of what's happening is a sense of you're not listening to what we really want, and somebody who's since the previous election, I was quite disappointed with the Democratic National Convention about their choices of who to put on the ballot box. Right? It was a bit of a you know, when you're trying to pander to who you think is your majority, rather than having a clear stance, I think has really cost it right? Because I think one thing about Trump, like him or not, he's pretty clear what he stands for, but when you become muddy and then it was an interesting article that was in the Rolling Rolling Stones magazine, I think it was saying that the vote for Harris is not a vote to save the planet, it's a vote to save ourselves. And was talking about how a lot of the policies under her watch has actually been quite pro climate, but the point is, she has dared not speak about it because she's worried about her voter base. So yeah, I think that's something we said about I think there's a need for for authenticity in leadership. Moral leadership is needed. And I wish we'd have a lot more President like we was it Uruguay, they had the president who left as the poorest president in the entire world. Yeah, yeah. I'm optimist. I wish there were more people like that who's actually in there for, for the greater public cause, which I think, I think the world is looking for. But it is what it is.
Andrea Edwards:Yeah, we've got Carola. Carola, I think from Europe. I think Austria or Germany. I'm sorry, I'll need to find out. I I'm wondering if we're going to have geopolitical chaos in, you know, you're looking at Europe in the way they're responding to it. The GDP for weapons is now 3% David, I don't know if you saw that, he's increased it so great for the US arms industry. So if you want to put some money in shares, I think that's obviously going to be a good spot. I suppose I want to. What I want to say to is just, how do you, how do you deal with this, the feelings of this, because I know a lot of people I know are in absolute despair, and I want to talk about how I cope with it, because it's the only thing I mean, I deal with hard, dark stuff every single day. Sometimes it gets to me. First of all is the fear of what is to come. If you sit in that, it cripples you. So just, it's really a really good time to just to be very present in the moment. Very, very family oriented. David was talking about community. We've we've said before, many times on the show, no one's coming to save us, because, as if all of this rolls out and in, the climate and disasters get bigger and worse. Obviously, there's going to be less and less money on the table anyway, so we're getting a sense of that. But try not to sit in fear of the future, trying to live in the moment. We're going to see some pretty hard stuff. It's going to be hard to cope with watching families separated and we're already. Starting to see it. Some neighbors dobbing in their mates in the US because they're illegal immigrants and and those illegal immigrants voted for Trump, so the despair is already going to start. So try and distance, really not distance. Step back from the emotions if you can, even though it's very, very difficult, especially if you're an emotional person. But I find if I'm sitting in the emotions all the time, I just can't cope. So being very objective, like we know what's coming. We know what it means. We know that a lot of people are going to suffer, and the less intense you can be within, within the emotional sort of outreach of that, I think that the better off you'll be. It's not easy, and you gotta allow yourself sometimes to go into it. I think a lot of people are in grief right now. In 2016 I went into despair well into February. I don't feel that same feeling. You know, we talked about acceptance as our first show of the season, and acceptance is you can see all the possible outcomes, and you accept that any of them can happen, and then you still need to move forward, even though it might not be a particularly good outcome as far as you're concerned. So I think, you know, in the next four years, and it could be beyond, you know, based on what, what a lot of people are saying, this is not just a four year cycle. This is potentially America moving into full authoritarianism. I wonder if, if that's just the path we're going to be on now, because, you know, when times are hard, people are looking for strong men and strong women. But I lost my train of thought. But yeah, it's, it's not an easy time. Give yourself time to deal with the emotions, but just try not to stay there if you can. It's going to be hard for the climate movement. It's incredibly difficult, but we've just got to come together. We've got to build our communities. We've also we've got to cross divides. You know, Roger Hallam released a Post this week. You know, I don't know if you're seeing his stuff, he's releasing it from prison. And his answer is, we've got to, we've got to get community focused, and we've got to, you know, bring small groups of people together and have the human human to human experience and talk about the issues and listen to each other and hear each other. And you know, if, if the Democratic Party in the US is so elitist that they've missed, completely missed the problems of the working class, then they need to work out how to cross the divide and both ways, you know. And so we've got, we've got unbelievably challenging years ahead. I think people are going to experience the climate crisis under authoritarianism for the first time in the US, and they're going to see what that strong man solution is, and maybe that's enough to turn things around and bring us back on track. Maybe it's not. So
Unknown:I'm a lot more optimistic than that. I have to say, you know, I think that change happens not because everything is going smoothly and everything's perfect. Change happens precisely out of, out of, you know, kind of the things which that work, you know, the the boundaries are what inspires us. And they either inspire us to try and climb over them, or they inspire us to find a way within them. And we've got many different boundaries. Some of them are kind of nature based. Some of them are society and politics, and some now economic. And we're seeing all those boundaries on all sides. So it's actually quite inspiring in that way. We, if we actually, you know, the part the opposite of the acceptance, is the denial. And what is that denial? The Denial is always a denial that change is possible. And that's kind of the perspective actually saying, Are we willing to go past thinking that actually changes, to think that change is actually possible most of the time, we want change to be something changing on the margin, so that we can carry on ourselves as we are. And what you mentioned about the Democrats, I think, is really interesting, because a strong part of what Trump says is we got to look after ourselves. And this is the part where Richard and I've always said, you know, you've got to look after yourself in order to survive, but you've got to look after each other to thrive. So it's that connection along with it, and there has been a lot of we've got to look after each other, but we forget that we also have to look after ourselves. Then you get a rebellion against it, and we've gone from we've got to look after each other to solely we've got to look after ourselves. That's kind of very bipolar in that sense. And this is causing us along and to meet somewhere. And as I've always said, nations are set up. Countries are set up to fight wars with each other. That's how countries are formed. That's how nations with. On, you know, the kings were there to go and lead an army against your enemy, which is on the other side. My daughter was talking to me last night about the Great War of China. You know, set there to keep people out. That's what it was about. That's what countries do. But people are the ones that join. When you go traveling along, and you see the different places, the people you meet, the people are the ones that unites and connect, not countries. And we've been getting that wrong. Our whole economy is about how to keep and fight economic wars with each other. That's what this first salvo of Trump tariffs are going to go up. It's the people who recognize actually that we need to connect, otherwise we can't actually trade, and it's never going to come from countries, never going to come from governments, because their role is to fight wars.
Richard Busellato:Yeah, cannot add much more to that. I think it's incredibly important distinction. David sets out and we don't actually, in our even democratic setup, have those mechanisms in place, because those mechanisms were typically set up decades and centuries ago, and they're very much how to protect what is ours, not to look for any kind of global cooperation, and the institutions we have set up since that are global in nature, per definition, do not have much executive power, and that's where they kind of fail, because we ultimately have elected Politicians into system that are saying, we're not going to cede any executive powers to supernational organs and institutions. So you have that dichotomy that's constantly going to be very, very difficult to reconcile if we think that's going to be the solution coming. I see it much more as you build from the base and up. It's the people that have to decide to make those individual choices for themselves. And then you form communities that are like minded groups, that are like minded areas, that think that way, and that is the path forward, because then you will automatically get the change we need. I cannot see it being super imposed top down.
Andrea Edwards:Yeah, interesting. So Nico's just asked I've seen many African countries celebrating Trump winning, and I was wondering if they will also pull out on climate change issues. I'm concerned about that. I want to hear your thoughts on the African so I mean, pulling out of climate change issues, it's not really like they can, because they're on the front line of climate change. So that's, yeah. I mean, any thoughts? No,
Unknown:I think, I think they will if, if it's clear that the money isn't coming, the biggest fines in in oil in a place at Namibia. They're about to start drilling in the orange basin. You know, it's going to be, you know, for what was it? 48 out of 55 countries in Africa, yeah, they're actively exploring for oil and gas in that fair chunk of code still that they, they absolutely the the it, the issue is, why? The Why are the trillions being called for? Is because it is fat fell and has to start with money.
Andrea Edwards:So that's kind of ironic, isn't it, we're gonna be drill for oil in Africa to get the money,
Unknown:the money either by exploiting the minerals underground, or we get it from and and that's what's going to happen. So,
Andrea Edwards:so David, you're just breaking up a bit. You're just breaking up a bit where I spoke over you before, I think, but it actually, it actually sounds like the ultimate irony, don't you think? Yeah,
Richard Busellato:of course, it is absolutely 100% the ultimate irony. And
Unknown:I'd like to, you know, throw something in there. I mean, there is a way that you can actually make money from the oil and gas and COVID in the ground by keeping them in the ground. So, you know, you can go to an impact investor and says to who wants to invest in, say, Namibia or somewhere where they are about to drill huge amounts, and sort of say, well, you have a vast space in there. You know, there are reserves in there, so let's just think about me giving making an investment to some project in the country, which may be a sustainable project, or whatever you want to call it doesn't really matter what it is, and I'm going to partner with the government. The government's the owner of this, so I'm going to buy. That stuff while it's still in the ground, so that you eventually won't take it out. And that money goes through the government into the project as a joint partner, or whatever it is, whereas, at the moment, what's done it, we partner with the government, the government still takes that out eventually. So there are ways that you can actually make money from keeping them in the
Andrea Edwards:ground. Yep, absolutely. I think we got a bit of a problem with your connection there. So should we move on to our topic for today?
Richard Busellato:Indeed, yes,
Unknown:absolutely. I'd like to show a show a picture, if I may. Let's, let's see whether I can do that screen. I think, yeah, I'm just going to try and share the screen and see what happens there. I and I am looking for window. Can you guys see this?
Richard Busellato:No nothing showing at the moment. There you go. There we go. Ah, yeah.
Unknown:So this was, this is a snapshot I took yesterday, and it showed basically the air quality. And I'd really like to point out back to what we were talking about. You know, it's green over there in the US. It's relatively green over in Europe. And you can see where it's spread to across the world. And this is the air we be. This is the air quality index across the world as a snapshot yesterday afternoon, and it's pretty much that way all around I thought that was a would be good sort of introduction to the topic of saying what this is and and I Want to bring up one part of this because I said I wrote a LinkedIn post last night, because I was walking to pick up my daughter at night, and it was, you know, the traffic has slowed down. It was late at night and it was dark, and, you know, I took a deep breath, and I felt like energized. I could walk a bit faster and picked up straight away. I was out early in the day. It was busy traffic, and I just felt I was breathing shallow and shallow, and my body was just naturally reacting to that, and I was feeling bad and and this is the air that the most important thing we do every day, the air we breathe, and it affects your mood, affects how you are. And I like to think of it from the side of saying, I just felt so much more alert and awake when I could take a deep breath and and there's all the things that it causes when you can't do that. You can imagine them yourself. But actually it's great if you can go out and take deep breaths. It's great if you can train for the Paris market and do this. So that's kind of a throw into it. And the other comment is how complex this issue is. Is all related to where is Green was where it's not where? What has happened is that, and this goes to our our sense of regulations and things essentially. You know, Europe has great clean air regulation. America has great clean air regulation. What that means is their industries sit on one side of the fence and they throw the other side to the places which don't and actually then say, you guys brief that stuff, but just let us consume what you make. And that kind of that whole throw. And the picture just says that completely. So I want to put that there. Yeah,
Richard Busellato:it's, it's actually a terrifying, simplistic model, you know? It allows you to look good, because effectively, the industrialized world has exported all the shittiest industries to other places, and all of a sudden, we look good here, but we're still consuming the stuff that's been manufactured elsewhere. It's, I mean, you couldn't make it up, but then to have the audacity to say, you know, look, we we are doing better, and beat yourself up on the chest and say it's your problem. It's, it's, it's really, really not very intellectually, you know, likable as an argument. It, it's terrifying in many ways. So there we are. It's, it's great to have you here, we know. And I think we can start with Thailand, clean air, network, what was your thought process and the reason when you decided to start it?
Unknown:Yeah, thank you. So I think you guys hit on on the key points just now discussion about change happening as a citizen. Level, an individual level, and also the inequality, particularly at a global level and with the supply chain. So it also with the Thailand premier network. We started off, we have experts in different fields. We knew this was difficult. We knew it needed expertise from people from different different industries. Know how it's not just one person, just one small group. And we knew that that was what's needed to solve this problem. We knew we couldn't leave it to the good old politicians to try to really solve this problem. For us, pushing for something like renal legislation is not easy. It's, you know, David, you said, you know, it's wonderful to take a deep breath and to appreciate it. Most of the time we don't know because we don't see it. It's an invisible it's invisible to the human eye. And therefore, you know, people have said, If we turn on the tap, on the water, it's disgusting, it's smelly. No one's going to drink that, and everyone's going to be up and downs. But because a lot of times, you're not aware of how bad air quality is, it's a long kill. In some cases, it's not long, actually, but unfortunately, but, um, but, yeah, when you breathe, it's a bit of a it's a bit of a gamble as to where it goes, right? Particularly matter 2.5 is so small. It's one, 1/30 human hair, you can't see it. It your the hair and your nose kind of trap. It may go straight in. And doctors would tell you, it actually absorbs straight into your bloodstream, and then where accumulates. It's a bit of a lack of the world. It goes to the brain, it goes to the heart, it goes to the lungs, you know. And it's linked to everything from, as the doctors have said, from from your brain to your toes, from dementia, bipolar disease. It's been linked to, obviously, respiratory illnesses, lung cancer, also cardiovascular issues. It starts growth in children to children have, it's been documented that children's level of education has been used by a year because of this, you know, and the most vulnerable groups are, you know, your young children, yeah, five years and younger, and also both youth, because their organs are not developed, with pregnant women, people who are elderly because the body are weaker, people who work out in the elements. So here in Thailand, you know your street workers, your people selling stuff, you know your your riders who are have to be out. You know, it's not just the level, but so something, how long you've been out the intensity, yeah. So, so these are vulnerable groups and that we also in. So what we did was we bought collectively our knowledge, and we adopted the EU consultative process in passing legislation. So we wanted people. We want a legislation that's developed based on information, knowledge data, not on emotions and feelings, not on, project, you know. So what we did was we developed, so using the same process, because we, my lawyers, have said, you know, the EU process is quite airtight. So we developed the white paper, which goes into relatively airtight into the overall picture of the problem of air quality in Thailand. Then we developed the blue paper, clean air, blue paper, which goes into the impact of air quality in Thailand. And the final paper, which is the green paper, it's the solutions based paper that one's over 700 pages, because it touches on all the sectors it gets into. So we touch upon, we touch upon the impact from the agricultural sector, forest fire and and transboundary. So that's one group that we touched upon. The second group is vehicle pollution as well as urbanization. Those are intertwined quite into late and then the third group is the industrial group. So it's your it's your extraction industry, it's your industrial factories, it's your waste management, it's your energy sector. So those are sort of the core group. And then we also have sections related to the key stakeholders, and we lump them into the state. So the role responsibility is state to manage solution to this. We also have civil society. You know, civil society is all of us who take off our hats. What are as an individual level, what is a role responsibility, what is our as we are victims, but there are also things that we can do to help push cleaner agenda forward. And then the last group is the private sector and and also the financial sector. Financial Sector, a lot of people don't think about it's not part of the real sector. But what where money goes and in the in the world today does impact a lot, right? So what responsibility financial sector in resolving this? Each chapter is really we bring in expertise from different areas, and it's not just a normal paper, because what we have in each chapter is a solutions from an economic standpoint, a solution from a legal standpoint, and the solution from civil society in each chapter, and then we synthesize, bring it all together and have final conclusion as to, what are the solutions that we table and it's it's quite hefty, that is the premise of the citizen led cleaner legislation. So we drafted the legislation and submitted into parliament, and. I have to go back a little bit to preface the entire constitution. There is an avenue for citizens to table legislation, so long as you get above 10,000 signatories. And we did all this throughout COVID, which was not fun, and in Thailand, when we were doing it at that time, you had to do it manually. So you have to bring a piece of paper, a form, to physically go up to someone, and they don't want to even be near you, and then say, please sign this and give me a copy of an actual ID. And yes, that is a personal security risk, but please, trust me, I don't know who you. Don't know me. I don't know you. So it was really hard. So we did all that and and so by but fortunately, towards the end of when we were collecting signatures, they did change the law, and we were able to do it online as well, and that really helped us. But when it came to actually going to Parliament, they told me, you've got to print. All we got at the end, about 22,000 signatures to kill a lot of trees to bring back to Parliament. And that was around 2022 early, 2022 and we sat there and no did anything. And then every few months, we're like nudging the government, sending formal letters saying, hey, people, this is important. What's happening, what's happening, what's happening. And nothing was happening. And it was just kind of quiet. But in the backdrop, there was also and, but one of the things that did happen before we table was that the Chamber of Commerce had also drafted a legislation as well using the same Avenue. And if you're optimistic, it's like, Oh, it's great. You know, everybody's coming together to try to solve this problem. I categorize myself a little as a realist, because I say it's all great, but let's look at the details. Right? When you look into the details and we're just like, oh, it's, it's rather pro polluter. And so that was what we were working up against for a lot of the time. And ultimately, what had happened was that after two years there, the cabinet did drive legislation. We were we were advised. We some of our members were part of the advisory team to try and advise them. We literally say, just take ours. But they didn't. So there's a cabinet version and and other political parties table too. So at the end, there are seven legislation. We're the only citizen led legislation. Others do have a lot of nuance that's appears to have been vision by but by big businesses themselves. It's, it's the way things are. So since early this year, they all seven drafts went to the House of Representative, and they, took a vote on it, and decision was taken to pass all seven into the next level. And that's where we've been doing since January. We've been going to Parliament for formal review, drafting committees for 10, getting on to 11 months now, and it's getting more intense. There's lots of subcommittee levels, and particularly my legal team. It's been extremely, extremely difficult and very, very grilling. But we're doing all this because, as you say, we this is the air we breathe, and we do need good legislation. Yeah.
Andrea Edwards:So I want to, I want to take it back about how has it become so bad? So I moved to Asia in 2003 and I'd been through Singapore before during the haze, so the sun's like this orb in the sky. So it was, it was an issue in the 90s. It's been an issue for a while. And in 2003 I remember just saying to Singaporeans, what's causing this? And people would say to me, Oh, I don't know. It just happens every year. I'm like, you don't know. How do you not know? And so then, of course, I started looking into it. And of course, the internet wasn't what it is now back then. And then in 2006 when I was about to give birth to my first child, the haze just started to come in. And I was, I mean, it puts you in a bit of a panic, right? The Singapore government's done a lot, and I know that they've worked with the Malaysian and the Indonesian government about the trans boundary haze, because it comes from Indonesia, where they're chopping down the forest to plant palm oil plantations, which, which, which, is awful. But the Singapore government has done a lot, because it got up to about I remember when I was at Microsoft, it was up at about 800 and you couldn't even see the skyscraper next to you. It was so bad, right? So when you said you can't see it, you can see it when it gets that bad, right? And then when I moved to Bucha seven years ago, we had a haze experience, and that was coming from Indonesia. But then, of course, we went up north into Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, where every year there's this haze, and I was asking locals and farmers, why is it happening? And one of the reasons, I was told, is because of there's more wealth in the country. The farmers are growing more food, and they have to turn their fields over faster, so they're burning more. But when I spoke to you, there seems to be a little bit more to it than that. So. How has it gotten so bad? Because it's been about 15 years where it's just gotten worse and worse and worse, right? And so we're now at this sort of critical point. So can you give us some of the context of how it's gotten so bad, beyond trans boundary, right?
Unknown:Right? I mean, if you talk talking specifically on the agro industry part of it, and I use the word industry because it isn't an industry. It is very much linked to three major crops in Thailand. But for Thailand, it's it's it's maize, it's sugar cane and it's rice. So those are the three corporate crops linked to burning a lot, specifically rice, sorry, particularly sugar cane and maize. A lot of it is on linked to contract farming. So a lot of the small scale farmers are through middlemen growing to feed into a big agro industry and the huge need, and it's growing so big now, it is also linked to to sort of inequality issues, because if you look into to household debts. In Thailand, the farmers are actually one of the highest indebted group in the country. Yeah, right. So they're very, very they do there's a big indebtedness issue and and so it begs the question, like, if you're stuck, if you're a farmer stuck in a contract farming arrangement where you've got to deliver, so a sugar cane Palmer has to supply their sugar cane within a very short window, the harvesting period to send to the sugar mills. Like sick. I think eight might be a stretch. Six to eight weeks, it's very intense. That's how the industry is, and that's the only time they they take it in. So if you don't get it in, you're not going to get paid, right? And and with the sugar fields, I mean, and we are an aging society in Thailand. So when you say, why are you doing it by heart, but late with with manual labor, where do you find the manual labor? It's a real, really practical issue, right? And then when you say, Oh, why don't you use a harvester? Well, harvester is five to 6 million baht. Secondhand, it's about 12 million baht. And how do you, how do you as a highly indebted farmer, acquire that, right? It doesn't make any sense, and to use it for a period of about six to eight weeks is ridiculous, right? So the cheapest option, I mean, very, very practically, is a match thing. And with, with, especially with, with sugarcane, they burn it twice a year, sorry, twice in the season. So they burn to get the leaves off, because it's easier to get in and then chop. And then they'll burn it again to get rid of the biomass, right? And then they'll quickly ship it in. And I've heard cases where, when they put it on the truck and get it in, it's it's crazy. It's crazy amount, because truck drivers have to sometimes sleep overnight in trucks waiting in front of the mills to get it in. And the penalty for burnt sugar, I still think it's like only 30 baht per tonnage, and you're getting paid over 1000 1200, baht per tonnage. So it's not enough to disincentivize that behavior. And then, and then, you know the bigger question, well, who should in the entire ecosystem help to solve this problem, and that's where, you know things are missing, and there's nobody taking that broader view of coming in, because I should be leasing a quick options out there. There should be solutions that way, and that's one of the key things that we're trying to do. So in this legislation, which is, it has penalties, but But it's with environmental legislation, we actually pushing in a lot of economic incentives. So we are bringing in polluter pay, but using it to fund a clean air for health fund and and that money is used for many, many things. One of it is to help incentivize SMEs and companies that are trying to develop this leasing operation for harvester, for example, to be part of solution. But it's also helping with environmental justice issue, helping with cases of victims and, you know, and all of that as well. So, you know, we're trying to close the loop and trying to put responsibility back to the to the party that should have it. So going back to your question, it is linked to the agro industry, the huge demand now for food. So Thailand, for example, corn is used for animal feed. We're the world's biggest producer of animal feed, right? Sugar, yeah, yeah. We're the world's biggest producer of animal feed sugar. We're always within the top 10, probably the top five in the world. And then rice were always within the top 10. So these, these, these, these agro crops, which is these agro industry crops, which is linked to the agro industry. Then when I knew that, I heard that, and also the production is moved outside. So when we talk about trans boundary, it's, it's an easy thing for governments to say, because it's like, oh, it's beyond our territory. We can't do anything. But there's enough evidence to show a lot of the trans boundary coming in is linked to Thai businesses, whether it's agricultural businesses or even a coal fired power plants and industries as well that you know, doing operations quite close to the border. And so the pollution blows in, yeah. So it's, it's all of that, yeah,
Andrea Edwards:but it's not, it's, it's obviously not just agro business, right? So we got Sushil joining us from Mumbai, so obviously vehicle pollution. But what else? What are the other big issues?
Unknown:So the big sources are, you've got your agro industry, which is also linked to forest fire issues and trans boundary issues. You've got your vehicle pollutions here in Bangkok, obviously, too many cars the way the city is built up. I mean, right now, if you live in Bangkok, you know they're building up the city like Hong Kong or Tokyo or Manhattan, which is absolutely crazy because, you know, not taking into account the way the wind flows, and you're blocking it. And it does not make any sense, because we are right at the Gulf of Thailand. We have natural wind flows, but it's not actually helping us because of the way the city's been built up. It used to be a lot more responsible in time past, with previous city governance, where they've not allowed for super tall buildings to be right next up to each other, right? And also the ongoing construction all the time, you know, it's causing a traffic jam and it's and then, of course, even construction causes pm 10, which is absolutely terrible for dementia and Alzheimer's disease. And then you also have the industrial sector. So in Thailand, there's over 100,000 or odd factories around the world in Thailand, and around 40,000 odd or so surrounds Bangkok, right? So I was so Mata port, which is in Thailand's eastern seaboard that that has been a pollution hot bed since the late 80s. It's, it's huge. I mean, you can Google it up, and it's so much problem. It's the world's eighth largest petrochemical hub. So and I, we don't talk too much about industrial pollution for one very simple reason, data is not there. We don't have emissions inventory data, so it's really, really hard to say. So we actually don't even allocate the percentage of what. Because when we don't have that data, to really have confidence we can say roughly, we can have a gage, but we don't have specific allocation percentages. Yeah, but the sad part is, in this region, we all know next to each other, and what we do affects each other. And I think that's, that's what's happened in Singapore when you are Andrea,
Andrea Edwards:yeah, yeah. And I honestly, if you've never experienced a haze environment for a long period of time, it's just the worst. And you know the recent floods in Bangkok, so the air is not flowing through the city right in the way it should, but the water is not flowing through either. So it's a double problem. And of course, rising sea levels are at risk, and they're they're talking about putting these islands in in the Gulf to protect protect it from flooding. And I don't know it's kind of it's challenging, but you know, life expectancy in Thailand, especially in in the parts up north, is down by two years. Is that, right?
Unknown:Oh, my dad, it's almost three to four years, depending, okay,
Andrea Edwards:I was looking in Delhi, 10 years in New Delhi, right? Lahore is, you know, and then the Himalayas sort of keep the smoke in lahores, like, what it's going through at the moment. You know, we're just a great and we don't seem, it seems to just be getting worse and worse. We're not solving any of it. Yeah, it's very frustrating.
Unknown:No, no, it is. But I think, I think there is hope, because, as David and Richard has talked about, the power of citizens. If you go back and look into history and the passage the US clean air legislation, which really galvanized environmental legislation in the US, was actually different by people, with 20 million people walking the streets, I mean, really walking along pavements, pushing the Love Canal issues that happen up in somewhere in upstate New York, you know, these different people just saying enough, they're not going to take this. So it sounded like, oh yeah, the US is just going to do it, because it's the US. No, no. You know, it took people pushing it. And then you look right, and when you look into China, people like, Ah, it's got a strong government. Chinese government would do what it takes. Well, well, no, a lot my friends who lived in Beijing during that period were telling me that people got together every week in Beijing just trying to figure out, like, what can we do to push the Clean Air agenda forward? I mean, it was not just willy nilly anybody, and there were a lot of NGOs pushing it. You know, I've collaborated with somebody there who's really critical in part of that, no, there was a lady who, who, who was a newscaster in China, and when she was, she was carrying her baby, you know, the doctor thought her baby had a risk of tumor, and she was shocked, because she didn't know how that could have been, and that ignited her to actually score, because she was, previously, she was working in a lot of the lower tier cities, where big industrial cities, and so she wondered if it was the air that she was breathing in. And she took the time to actually do this huge documentary called Under the Dome. And that ignited a lot of people, so different. Individuals doing their thing. But I think that really pushed the momentum until, you know, not 2012 213 where the Chinese government, like, you know, just said, Okay, this is it's a war on pollution. And actually, China is not that easy, because, you know, your industrial polluters are actually state owned, yeah, right. Like, right. But I think what was really good is just the way it was managed. Because I think at some level, there was a sense of that we need to pull together to solve this. And so one of the one of the developments that came from, is an application called the Blue map app, which was, which is incredible if you've ever seen that, you can Google it up on there's a TED Talk by Ma Jun, who was a founder and developed this, and that's phenomenal, because what he did was he actually pulled data the government released on industrial pollution, and it was hard for individuals to actually make sense of it and develop into an app, and you actually look, and he color codes it, and you are able to see what factory is closest to your house, and will give you all The data. You know, what are they polluting? You know, when have they been in violation? What's happened? And they apparently, it gives you a chat feature. So what happened was people organically went in, and they were like, actually tagging government agencies that were responsible for managing air pollution, to the point where it got to the point where, you know, before they could have kind of turned the blind eye and kind of sign off on factories and weren't meeting limits, it ended up being part of the KPI when enough people were part of the watchdog and putting them. And so what he did was he brought in micro reporting, platform citizens, he brought in transparency and all of this. And actually, from a government standpoint, that's that's beautiful, because it's their backstop to go up to the polluting entities and say, Hey, we can't put a blind eye on this anymore. We can't, we can't use our hands to close the sky anymore, because it's very transparent. So I think there are means and ways of doing it. And also, I've spoken to a lot of advocates in Indonesia, and they went down judicial path, and that was incredible. They sued the government, they went all the way to the highest court. Government appealed, and they still won. And, you know, and it was, and it was actually, like you said, David and Richard, it was connecting, and Andrea was connecting at a human to human level, you know, when, when I spoke to them. They said, Well, you know, they looked at they brought in cases, you know, somebody with a young child, somebody with an aging parent, you know, and brought these cases in. And at some level, I think when it went to court, you know, you know, the judges were listening to this. Actually took off their hat and say, Oh, my God, I do have a young child at my house, but do have an aging parent, and somehow they it's incredible, but they were able to connect at that human level and that and that was successful. So I think what I'm saying is these things can happen if we collectively move together in Thailand's the same I was telling you the pm 2.5 wasn't included in the air quality index. Data's been there, but it's not disclosed. When people started falling sick around 2018 19, they complained a lot social media. And that complaining and math towards the same issue cause the government officials to release that data. Within nine months, they pulled their leg for 10 years, they won't do it, you know? So, so there are means and ways of pushing for change. I just think that needs to be more active citizens. I believe, I mean coming out of what's happened in the US. I do believe, as a citizen, it's not our role. It's not just once every four years in the ballot box.
Andrea Edwards:Yeah, I
Richard Busellato:mean you, if you think you have the right to be heard, which is kind of a fundamental democratic right, you also have a responsibility, and it's the second part people tend to forget, yeah, that actually, with that right comes attached to responsibility to make your views heard and pushing in the right direction, because otherwise you become kind of complicit in in in not making a change for the better. So with the right is always the responsibility. And what you're describing in China, I think is extremely interesting, because totalitarian, authoritarian society can push back a lot against a few people expressing views, and you know, that's kind of how it's operated in history. But once that minority, or whatever we want to call them, group, is large enough, then it becomes a much bigger problem than it does in a democratic society when you can still marginalize them through the vote. You cannot do that in China, because ultimately, social cohesion is the ultimate target for whoever is running China. And therefore you can go very quickly in moving ahead by saying this is enough of a big problem that. We need to actually attack it and deal with it. And you can do it much, much quicker than you do in a traditional Democratic Society, which is kind of interesting, also to the point where we're debating authoritarianism at large. But you can actually move very swiftly.
Andrea Edwards:Yeah, you should keep an eye on what China's doing to clean up its environment, not just its air, but its water. It's really moving fast.
Richard Busellato:I think that's super interesting. Andrea and I encourage everyone to kind of keep tabs on what actually is happening in China, because it will have huge repercussions for the whole region, including Thailand.
Unknown:I think one of the last things Richard and I did where we were still very active within the investment industry, we looked at environmental patents. And China outnumbers the US, Europe and other countries in total, China outnumbers all of those,
Andrea Edwards:yeah, yeah. Get on to the next the next one about the challenges that you faced along the journey.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah. No, it's
Andrea Edwards:not easy.
Unknown:It's not easy. It's not easy. Ah, ultimately, I think it's a mindset issue. So it is. It goes back cultural mindset. So we look at a problem like, you know, like the what's under the iceberg, right? So people say, ah, air pollution and all this. But I think ultimately, what, what makes it tough is trying to explain to ties about your right to clean air, it's actually a right to life, right? And we're pushing up against some, some sort of cultural belief that, you know, ties are very conformist. I would say by by culturally more conformist, more group think, more going with the flow, more, taking things easy, and and, and. So, you know, it's really hard to tell people who believe that and say, you know, be an active citizen, because it kind of goes against the grain of how they've been brought up, right? So, so that, that, that, that's, that's been challenging, I think that the belief of, you know, and then this sort of just going back to what you were saying, you know, sort of the of this, this belief that there is a a holier than thou leadership that's going to do the best and everything for us, and we voted him or her in, and that's it. We'll close our eyes and let him and her do their thing, right? And so, this belief that, Oh, someone's in charge, and they'll know what they're doing and and they'll do everything for us, and we don't have to do anything. So, so that's, that's that's been challenging. And just trying to get people to say, I mean, even with, I mean, there's nothing we've always been trying to communicate out to the big businesses, you know, too. And trying to say, hey guys, you know, this is a problem. You know, let's, let's, let's, let's work together to find solutions. And what we're doing here is we say, hey, you know, especially for the big, big guys, you know, you guys have all the skills and abilities to do things. You move much faster than governments, obviously, right? You know, I've got, you know, you know, we've had discussions with some of the big players, and it's like, oh, we've got supply chain traceability. It's not ours. Fantastic. You have it, make it transparent, make it publicly available, then show it that it's not yours, right? And that's where, you know, you see them pushing back, and you're like, Oh, well, you know, proprietary. I said no, no, no. Going forward, you are going to have to be responsible for your supply chain. Legislation coming out of Europe and the US is very clear for you to be relevant in high value markets, people could have these things in place. So what we're doing with this legislation is actually helping pushing you along this way, right? And saying, well, these are things that you need to do and for companies, we know it's not cheap. We know internet geology is not cheap. You know, it's not easy. But for those who qualify for for support, you can actually get support through the Clean Air for health fund to transition your operation, right? But you know that it's conditional and it's and you've got to qualify, right? So we it's not a finger pointing. You're the polluter, you're bad, and you've got to solve all this. No, it's like this is a problem, all of us being affected. Let's figure out a way of just an equitable way to transition. And you big guys, you have all the data right, disclose it. And I think with Transboundary Haze, the way we've done it is we've said, look, the big issue, it's always been this big argument of, it's not a house, it's not a house, right? It's someone else's like, okay, okay, let's do this. Then we are in the 21st century. There is satellite data, there's ground data, and there's meteorological data. Those are the key elements need to figure out the location of where a lot of these operations are happening, and it's blowing pollution into. Island is causing massive health impact. Okay, you a lot of you guys have supply traceability. So you say, Okay, fine. You prove it's not yours. You prove it's not yours, until you don't, until and until you can prove it's not yours, you'll be slapped with a fine that's on par with the Singapore Transboundary Haze act, because that's the way we can lift the barrier to be on the same plane. And if every single country, and it's such an incredible thing that my legal team pulled together, but if we all do the same thing here in Asia, we will be able to solve this problem, right? The ASEAN Transboundary Haze act, I think took, I don't remember, the years now. It took the 10th country to sign. I think took over a decade, and I was just on a con call just the other just yesterday, actually, and Indonesia was showing the actual space that they've prepared for for the there's a ASEAN Transboundary Haze coordination center that's been set up, which is fantastic. It's been set up, but what they've showed us is, there's tables and chairs, really, and it looks like a swanky office, but they've said, Got no equipment, got no money to hire people. So, you know, it's and I just, I empathize with them, right? That it's a regional issue, and they keep saying, we don't have the funding, we don't have the funding, you know, and but every single day that we don't solve this, more people are dying that that's the bottom line. And ASEAN is a lot of people say, Let's rely on ASEAN. ASEAN is a different setup than the EU and emu, right? So, so we've got to figure out ways of doing this, yeah. So, so that's, that's kind of how we're hoping to be able to move this agenda forward, and actually, ultimately, it has to be an ASEAN
Andrea Edwards:approach. Yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say there was a, there was also a piece in Eco business that was talking about, um, coal. Obviously, coal is still big in this part of the world, and it's growing. It's one of the only parts of the world that's still investing, not just Asian, but Asia across the board. So and coal is obviously a big issue when it comes to the 2.5 particulates. So that's, that's another challenge. You know, the energy infrastructure that's being built, it's not being built for a healthy future problem.
Unknown:Yeah, for sure.
Richard Busellato:I would assume that coal is the major polluter in all these because compared to regular traffic and other things, it has a lot of super negative properties that even with modern techniques, you can't really hide from because coal is coal and, you know, but it's a nasty source of energy, full stop.
Andrea Edwards:Yeah, yeah. I
Unknown:think, you know, I like the description of how it brings the incentives together in what you're describing, the these things takes time. So, you know, China took a long time, the under the dome video, which I remember seeing when it came out. You know that that was a shocker, because it directly attacked the government, really explicitly, the local government, central government, and all of those things there. So everybody was wondering, how on earth did this woman getting away with this? And in part, I think because people saw it and recognized what it is. So there's that that that connection part was very important. I think there's another connection part which is also important, which is the pace of nature. You know, when you describe about the rush to get the agricultural product into the mill and so on, we're imposing a pace which is not the pace of agriculture in nature, and that's always going to end up becoming an issue in all of these things, the push against, push into CO again, if you look at Bangladesh, which is increasing its coal power is because it needs to produce garments 24/7, For the rest of the world in that way. And that, again, is a pace that is not the pace of which we normally need clothes, the pace of our own nature in that sense. And I think that that's that's a Connect which we don't bring out enough. We tend to think of the problem as the as the scientific or technological aspect, or the or the particular point of the problem. We don't go back and say, Actually, what is the pace that helps us to thrive? And what does that lie about all the demands we have and everything else. How do we ourselves want to live at the pace? And there's this idea of the veil of ignorance. This was a concept introduced by a moral philosopher called John Rose, who says, when you when you go about doing something, imagine you don't know which side you're on. You under this veil of ignorance, what would you choose in that case? And it's always going to be different when you open up that veil and you see yourself as being, you know, I'm on the consumer side, or I'm on the producer side, or whatever it is, but when you actually try to do it with a veil of ignorance on top of it, you end up making very different choices,
Richard Busellato:inevitably so. And the whole thing that David is articulating is extremely close to my heart, you know, as financial guy and economist and all that, one of my biggest bug bears that has always stuck with me ever since school, effectively, is how we account for growth, and we leave aside the fact that there is some form of natural equilibrium level of growth. Of course, things grow, and that's my issue with kind of the de growth movement. It's very negative. The planet grows. But when you impose and you kind of force it to go at a different pace, there is a price to pay, and for us that's typically debt. If I run up that and I consume it, it counts as growth, but no one is ever accounting for the payback of that debt. And to me, it's it's an anomaly in how we account for economic progress, and it's pretty clear just looking at the world now that we are probably coming towards the end of some form of super cycle for that, because unless we get rates down to zero, these debt repayments will not actually work out for the people in that whether it's government, corporations or individuals, because you cannot grow at that rate from here that enables you to pay back these debts. And I think it's a major fault, and also a major cause in how we structure businesses to extract at the rate which is not compatible with long term prosperity.
Unknown:I think it's, you know, what we know was mentioning before by the farmers and their debt. Yeah, you know the payback of the debt is the pollution that you see. Yes, that's the payback. People think it's not the interest rate. That's the payback, and and that occurs everywhere. But the point is, when interest rates go low, we take on more financial debt. So we always take the debt to the level of what we can financially pay back, and that leaves a bigger scar on everything else, as we do. So it's really, I mean, it's really interesting. I think that, you know, be really interesting to have something on, you know, the payback of debt, or whatever it is, as a as a site, as a topic, at some point, it is so much on this, but on the positives, on the on the opposite side of this. I think this aspect of connecting with, you know, the pace of nature is something that I feel very, very much as a way of trying to, trying to talk, talk about, in the sense, especially when you start talking to the bigger economic picture, because nature grows, but it doesn't expect growth. And that expectation of growth is where you try to put a number of it. As soon as you start thinking about, well, how much do I expect when I grow? You start trying to put a number on it, you actually reduce the total overall growth you have over time, because once you put a number on it, you force it and you have to borrow, and then there's more debt, and that cascades on in that way. And again, this goes to change of mind, that sort of belief that things can change, we can actually have a growing and prosperous economy, and people can thrive as one that doesn't have to be dependent on having money first, having having debt to start us there, I think I think, you know, the Clean Air brings out many of these aspects. Absolutely.
Richard Busellato:It makes the point. I think we're all kind of agreeing on but articulating somewhat differently. It brings it all together in what we are doing to this planet, and how it is certainly not sustainable, and how we go about fixing this, because we
Unknown:sorry. So there's a word that we use in economics, I'm sure you're all familiar with it, which is externality, right? So we take the environment completing our society completely out of. Population, right? It's a free resource, right? And if you think of something free, you think it's abundant, you can use it all the time. It costs you nothing, so you don't value it. And I think that that's a big problem. And then, if you want to, I'm really, really passionate about intergenerational equity, right? So what kind of world are we leaving? Right? Have we used so much resources that the next generation cannot survive in a decent environment anymore in the generation after that? Right? Which is, I think there was a push to for governments at one stage. I don't know where it's gone, but I think there's a at one point I knew the leadership of New Zealand, Scotland and I think Iceland, were pushing for this, and that was to bring in intergenerational equity discussions. So whenever projects are being tabled to the government, the minister have to answer that question, like, if you extract something from the oil from the ground, like if it's coal or oil, you know, how do you then explain that impact of that resource, which, once it's gone, it's gone, and all the ramification of extracting it out to the next generation? I think that that picture is missing. And I think going back specifically to the Clean Air thing, which I think goes back to what David had kindly shown, which is the map of the air, the air quality map for the around the world. And that was something that struck us very, very big too, when we saw that, because it was very clear that it was a global north, global south issue, you know, not in my backyard kind of thing where you just, you just move the factory somewhere else, and I have clean air. But I think the thing that also shocked me too was that, you know, I remember, do you remember the CFC issues with the ozone and people coming together to solve it? And that was beautiful. It was a moment where countries came together when it comes to air pollution. It's kind of feels like global south has been kind of left on our own to solve this. And I look at funds that support, you know, countries in this transition. Because, sorry, most of the factories are here. Most of the agricultural planes are here. You know, the cold or whatever you're digging, they're all here, right? So in this part of the world. But you know, amongst climate finance money, only 1% goes to specifically to deal with clean air. And I think part of it may be because the Global North has dealt with it, right? They've already dealt with air pollution. They're focusing only on climate but there's mutual benefits to to solving both. You know, then they're not the same, obviously, but short term air pollutants is responsible half of global climate effects, right? And honestly, the air that you breathe, it affects all of us. So I remember my air pollution scientists had told me that she was, she worked quite a fair bit with some of the Chinese counterparts, and China being China, when they were looking and and also counterparts out in LA was obviously Los Angeles looking this problem for a long time, and they were doing source apportionment, and there was a component they couldn't attribute to where it came from. And when they did the scientific analysis, they found out portion they couldn't attribute to comes from China. I mean, these things go across boundaries. So stratosphere, we live under the same stratosphere, and it's a bit sad. I think when it comes to the air pollution movement, there isn't that farm to table responsibility, whether it's it's the agriculture, whether it's industry aspect of it, there is no accountability from from that angle. And so, and one thing I who I know, you live in Singapore right now, Andrea, you're saying that, yeah, I was in Singapore a few weeks ago, and I don't know, I was kicking myself now. I went to a museum and oh my god, I turned around and the person who was behind me was Ray Dario. I was like, Oh my God. And I was like, I don't know what to do, so I'm just a dorky thing, right? I just kind of went up to him. It's like, Could I take a photo? I just took one crypto and then he kind of left. I thought, oh gosh, I should have told him. I should have, like, I know you've got a philanthropy, I know you're in Singapore, probably to talk to tamasic and all this, and I know you care about the about the oceans, but could you also devote some of your interest towards air, because it's such an important, critical issue, and I miss that. I should have, I should have just mentioned that to him, yeah. But I also think that, I mean, if the global community came together and focus on this, it is a double whammy effect that we could address both air quality and climate change at the same time. Yeah,
Andrea Edwards:I think there's another aspect of cleaning up the air too quickly. So I don't know if you know this. So it was about 30 years later they worked out that Europe cleaning up its air caused the famine in Ethiopia. When China cleaned up its air, it impacted the Pacific. So when India cleans up its air, because it's such a big so actually, as we clean up our where we're going to see climate impact. Because there's less particulates to reflect the heat out. So it's actually also we can't just clean up the air. We've also got to do the other side, which is the really mass regeneration. Did you notice in Singapore, how everywhere you go, they're planting trees. Everywhere there's plants and new plants and old plants every piece of grass. If I see a piece of grass that doesn't have trees on it, I'm shocked. You know, it's like, the goal is to plant trees, and they're doing it. If you come, I need to drive around and film it, because it's, it's really quite amazing to change, and it's always been green, but it's they're working very hard to make it greener, which, of course, is, is also a good thing to clean up the air pollution, right?
Richard Busellato:It does help.
Unknown:You have a couple of things you were talking about in terms of that. I keep wanting use the different words to externalities, because it the word itself says, ignore it. Even word to it in that sense. And I've had various things, but leaving that aside, you know, you mentioned about the future generations and things, and Peter Bucha commented about, you know, this, this aspect about intercolle, intercolus that we don't know, unlike, which is kind of a future in some in some ways, in that way, and and there is this part which we talked a bit about with Richard and I when we were writing our book, the unsustainable truth of how a place in Japan had a it's A small place, tiny little village had this meeting about what do they do with planning, and they invited a generation from 50 years forward. So they they got this generation. They trained these people to be a generation from 50 years forward. And it took a lot of training to think that you're not speaking from now, because one of the things that happens is we see our problems as our problems immediate. So we think about the bins that are not emptied in time, or the air pollution we have and all the rest of it. We don't see what a genuine future generation might see and come back and as a feedback. So, and it's really relevant, because they said, when they finally got the people to think about it as seeing it from the future, they came along and they said things like, it's so great that they gave us the mountains as a view for us to keep those things come out when you don't see yourself as saying, How Do I plan my building. So that is sustainable, because then you let down the route of saying, Well, I still building the building, but I'm just building it sustainably. And it goes back again to this aspect of you can't think of the externality from thinking about what the problem I have, and how do I try to avoid externality. You have to think of it as saying, actually, what would nature look like? Because we are, are we are part of nature, or do we feel ourselves as being shepherds of nature? And that's a huge difference, because the way we think economically in terms of externalities is we have to be shepherds of nature. Because somehow, if we did this, then we fixed that, and we protect it, as opposed to we are actually a part of it. How do we allow that to guide us, of what we do, instead of what do we have nature do for us?
Andrea Edwards:I'm just sort of conscious of the time. Of course, we need
Richard Busellato:to have gone long, but taking a lot of your time, yeah,
Andrea Edwards:and we really appreciate it when it's
Unknown:really fascinating. What I want to add, I want to add, which is, I once spoke with a lobbyist who said, Look, I was working on day and night on this thing. I lobbied against it. I thought it was great, and then I found out what damage it costs, and I'm never going to touch that industry again. And it made me think, actually, how much do we actually talk to lobbyists for them to actually appreciate what lobbying should mean?
Andrea Edwards:Sorry, I was in PR for a long time. I worked with lots of lobbyists. Not all of them were thinkers. They might have been good. They might have been good at what they did, but they weren't all thinkers. Anyway, we know one of the things that really impressed me about what you've done, and I think I'm always seeking people like you in my life, because you inspire me is I see a lot of people who live with problems that are so obvious I can't see past them, like the rubbish on the beach in Piquet. I can't not see it, whereas I'd see hundreds 1000s of tourists come through, as well as local sitting on the beach in the rubbish. Me and not pick it up. And I'm like, can't you see it? The pollution, you know, those smoggy days in Bangkok are revolting. You can see it. And people just don't think that they can do anything about, you know, what's going on. And I think we can. I think every one of us, so leave us with some inspiration for people out there who've seen a problem, you know, something they love, something they care about, it's falling apart. It's degrading. You know, I think of the people who are trying to save the coral reefs at the moment, you know how hopeless that must be feeling. But what would what's your advice to people who feel helpless and hopeless, especially at this time, especially this week, what's, what would you tell them?
Unknown:Um, I think we all have, I believe we all have a role to play. And just, just, yeah, I'm inspired because, I mean, I'm lucky. I mean, got a it's a real team effort, and my team has been incredible. I mean, I can't even describe how much of an effort it's been, on, on, on all of us. But I think what inspires me is that, you know, I've had incredible we've also had incredible volunteers coming in to help us do this. We have a tight volunteer like he saw our group. He knew how flat out we are. He saw our Clean Air legislation. It was in Thai, and I told him, I said, Oh, we do need to have it in translated to English, but I just don't have the capacity to do it at the moment. He took about two, three weekends, and he translated it onto English. Just he's not a lawyer, right, but he's got a phenomenal English skill, easy as an engineer, actually. Yeah, right. So, and we, we have another example is this. There's a this incredible lady, Anna. She's, she's a book designer based on Lisbon in Portugal. She heard about our group through one of these webinars that I did with the Royal Society of the arts based in London, when she heard about our group, she just reached out to us, and she said, Oh my God, I want to do something. Want to help out. And I said, Oh my gosh. And she's like, my skill set is I'd like to design something for you. Let me know what you want. And she is a designer of the cover of our Clean Air legislation. Normally, legislations do not have a cover, but we decided to do it very specifically for a very clear reason. We don't know if this legislation will ever see the day of light, to be very, very frank, but we do want to make it stand out, and we do want it to be documented there, within, you know, throughout the relevant bodies, you know, whether it's the legislature, court system, parliaments, universities, we've sent it all out there. And so it is there that it's all documented. So you know that people have it to take it up in the future. So I think my point is just, I know it's hard. You know, we all lead very busy lives, but I think we all have different skill sets to bring to the table, and it really depends what you want to do, right but, but these, these things that these individuals have done on their own unilaterally, has been phenomenal, and it's really, you know, helped us move this movement forward. And I would really encourage anybody who wants to get involved in whatever cause that moves you, that you're passionate about, yeah, to just roll up your sleeve and do and and get involved. And for us, I mean, yeah, one simple thing is we actually have a petition on our website. Our website is Thailand. Can org your network and can is, well, actually, when we started off, we looked around and we didn't know what to call ourselves. And there is actually a group in Hong Kong called HK can and we thought, Oh, we quite like that name. And we thought, oh, it's very inspiring, right? Because lobbying off, taking off President Obama's Yes, we can. So, so our group is called Thailand can org, and in there, we have an informal petition, and we want people, anybody, actually, it doesn't even have to be anybody in in Thailand, but ideally it would be good to be Thais, because then you can really make the noise when things move. But, um, but anybody can really go in and then just, just, just, just read all the material. We've got, materials in English and Thai. And if you agree with these important things that we've put in the legislation, you know, make your voices heard. And what we want to do right now, we have 60,000 people. This petition has been around for about five years now. It's a bit low, actually, yeah, we want to make it up to about a million. And I think that that would that would really show, you know, those in power that this is an issue a lot of people care about, and I we're aiming for a million as a stretch target, because I believe the only other public petition in Thailand that has gotten enough of a big enough mass of people, it's like 800,000 people have signed. So this really make noise. So that's a simple thing you can do, right? You. Go and listen, clicked, send it to all your friends. And that's simpler than what 20 million people walking the streets in the in the 70s? Yeah, so I'll