The Know Show – the woke mind virus

Unless you’ve been living under a rock, woke, wokeism or ‘the woke mind virus’ are now part of our public vernacular. But where did it come from? How did this awful word or phrase become so normalized in our societies? Equally, is woke a bad thing? And surely it’s not a mind virus? 

To hear the word woke, all you have to do is watch any political campaign (anywhere in the world) and you’ll hear woke used as a blanket term to criticize anything progressive. That includes racism, women’s rights, LGBTQIA+ rights, DEI, migration, all the way through to cancelling books in libraries or schools. So why is it everywhere? Is it a good thing for society or is it dividing us even more? And who benefits from its popularity? We’re going to dig into it and see if we can come to a consensus. 

To help us discuss this very current topic, we are delighted to welcome back the very woke Graham Harvey CSP, an award-winning speaker, business coach, service designer, and author. Graham coaches service leaders and their teams to design cultures of next-level service excellence and to deliver standout customer experiences that delight every customer... every time! We invited Graham because he’s all in on woke, but who on our team is not? Join us and you’ll find out. 

The Know Show is a Livestream held every fortnight on Friday, where Andrea T Edwards, Tim Wade and Joe Augustin, and at least one special guest, review the news that’s getting everyone’s attention, as well as perhaps what requires our attention. We’ll talk about what it means to us, the world and we hope to inspire great conversations on the news that matters in the world today. 

The Know Show is based on Andrea T Edwards Weekend Reads, which are published every Saturday on andreatedwards.com, and covers the planetary crisis, topical moments in the world, global politics and war, business and technology, social issues, and passion/humour/history. Join us. 

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To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Transcript

0:04

Welcome to the Notion. My name is Andrea Edwards. My name is Tim Wade. And my name is Joe Augustine. And, that's recent that we are trying to explore topics that most people don't get to. And we talk about news articles that you may not have seen in your feed because, you know, we don't have a cat in our videos. But, the whole idea is, no, let's have a deeper, more aware conversation about things in the world. And today's topic, is kind of the, I would say, the accelerated version of that. I was gonna say it's kind of, political correctness on steroids, or you should say political correctness on some sort of, pharmaceutical interventions. But anyway, it's about the woke mind virus. And my first reaction to it when I first heard it was, okay, I kind of get where it is, but I don't know exactly what it is. And I think a lot of people perhaps don't know that as well. So welcome to the show. And by the end of this, you too might be woke or sleep. That might be a warning, actually. Yeah. Yeah. We do have a guest today, Graham Harvey, but he hasn't arrived yet. So when he does, we'll bring him up. Yep. Graham's joined us before on the no show. And one of the reasons I wanted to invite him is he is proudly woke, and I'm proudly woke. And you 2 aren't so sure about your wokeness, so I thought we needed a bit more balance rather than me just being the only, you know, out there woke us. In the village. Yeah. Well, I I I'm I think there is a there's a woke spectrum, and everyone feels that they're on the right place of it. So that's the that's the real, I I I think, the challenge. You know, everybody feels differently, and there's always different flavors of it. But but most people feel very where they are is right. Where they are is just right or it's, you know, it's too much or whatever. So that's that's the issue. You know the problem now is work spectrum could become a term. Well, I I use it on my post so I'm I'm hoping it does trend. There you go. You heard it first here. You know, we we don't do this at the start of our videos which is what we should be doing because, you know, any responsible social media person should. Someone tried for once. You know? If if you if you if you listen to us today and you like what you hear, and even if you have hope that it's gonna be interesting, would you like and subscribe? Whichever way you are, you know, consuming this, like and subscribe. If by the end of this, you go like, no, I'm too embarrassed to be with these people, just, you know, unlike and unsubscribe. But, shall we shall we get to it? I'll introduce Graham when he when he pops in. But, yeah. What we like to do as well is to look at the news, the stuff that's been happening around the world. And, I don't know. I'm not sure if you heard about it, but there is an election on the horizon. Graham's here. Should we bring him in? Yeah. Sure. Okay. Well, our guest on the show today who is adjusting his camera is Graham Harvey, CSP, an award winning speaker, business coach, service designer, and author. Graham coaches service leaders and their teams to design cultures of next level service excellence and to deliver standout customer experiences that delight every customer every time. Graham, welcome to the show. Oh, he's gone immediately. Oh, well. Okay. I must have turned him on. Well, I I I think it's one of those things where you you you you you click on, you can't hear anything, you go, like, okay. Yeah. That's okay. He'll be back in a second. Okay. Alright. Anyway, we'll get we'll show you the the quick takes. Rolling forward with the elections? No. Before we're doing the quick takes, just just today, I wanted to sort of just have a general conversation around the US election. You're probably not paying as much attention to it as I am. Is that correct? I am paying a lot of attention to it. Are you? Uh-huh. Yeah. So Yeah. It's crazy. On the pulse. Tim, you're you're probably paying so much attention why are you paying so much attention to it? Is it because of the markets? Well, I'm I I don't have a much attachment to the markets in terms of what what what happens with the outside, what should be a simple straightforward, you know, outcome, is now just a neck and neck race after everything that has happened. And that's, curiosity to me because, you know, back in the day, it would have been really simple to to, like, trip over and and and lose the election. Do any of the hundreds of things that Donald Trump has done, and you should be out by now. Yeah. So, Graham, just before we kick off on this conversation, welcome. It's great to have you back. Thank you. Nice to see you all. You too. So we just said, we're just into the just sharing our thoughts on the US election. So Joe thinks it's neck and neck. Who who else? Well, the the thing is, in in in terms of polls, what what I it's not what I think. It's actually what the polls are saying right now in terms of everything that's happening. There should be a wider gap, but it's it's not wide enough for anyone to call pre election. And it's, you know, it's I guess if you're if you're living in Singapore and you've lived in Singapore for a long time, it seems even stranger. But I think if you've been in the US for a while I mean, I have some thoughts about why that's the case, but we can get to it because I think it's all tied up with the topic of today as well. Yeah. Graham, what's what's your take on the US elections? What are you what are you what are you seeing? I guess I watched a few different commentators. I forget the guy's name who I watched the other day who's predicted, I think, the last 10 elections. And, based on his analysis, which I think comes down to about 10 different factors, as far as he's aware, it's all done and all done and dusted, based by his pure analysis based on the criteria. I'd most days, I just shake my head. I did I I just can't see how anyone with any level of sanity can vote for for Trump as you just said, Joe, based on his his track record. You know, it it but then I was watching some guys the other day who died in the wall, Democrats who are who are voting for Trump. And I'd I'd I just seems to defy any form of of logic. And then the other thing too, which I I guess I wasn't totally across as perhaps I should have been, and that's the whole it was to do with, what's his name? The ABC, Jamie Briggs talking about the different, the electoral boundaries, and how they are essentially set by local committees. So they're not actually set by, you know, independent commissions as we have here, say, in Australia, where you have independent people who draw the bound draw the electoral boundaries. Effectively, the the local boundaries are drawn by local committees who effectively do it to make sure that their, incumbents virtually get reelected. And, you know, the whole, way in which the the votes get tallied, it just doesn't seem to tick the normal parameters of a democracy as as I know it. I think so. So sometimes I shake my head because I just I don't know. There's something seems to be fundamentally wrong with their the basic structure of their democracy. Mhmm. Tim? I mean, I I as far as polls go, I don't trust them because I think half the people that are going to do something different or odd or thinking about it or, don't wanna get sort of into any sort of tug of war on their opinion shifting, aren't gonna be responding to the polls possibly. I don't know. Or or there's a bunch of people that that, you know, you send out an invite to a birthday party, and they don't respond till the till the day before. And there's a whole bun there's a whole it it it just it always feels like there's a whole bunch of those. But having had a look at the the debate and, and the vice presidential debate, I I just find it I find it very I I find I find it very entertaining and very odd, and I I agree with Graham and Joe in that. I I can't see why I I can't see why anyone would would go there again, except for possibly the stock market. And so that that's the only reason why I think people might might vote him in, but, other than that and I could see I could see why people are also angry at the fact that it sort of automatically went to Kamala without any sort of, you know, voting to to put her as the nominee, and I understand the machinations of that with regards to funding and and things like that, but I I just, I I yeah. I mean, I I hear Graham saying something's seems fundamentally broken, and it just the the whole time, I just feel like I'm I'm I'm sitting in the Roman Empire and I'm watching it crumble. Mhmm. You know, that it just it just feels like that. I felt like that since 2016. Yeah. By the way, I wanna make it clear that I'm I'm I I do see why they're going that way. I'm actually not on the side that says that, you know, that I don't see why. I'm it it's it's actually when I because what I do is I do crazy things like hang out in MAGA chat rooms. I've spoken I've spoken to African American MAGA supporters. I've spoken to Hispanic supporters as well. I've been in their channels. I've been I've been chatting with them. I understand it. And I and I understand why the some Democrats as well, feel that he's, he's a viable he's a viable alternative. Alright. So I'm gonna I'm gonna give it very different oh, sorry. Graham, you wanna say something? Just one quickly. You said Tim about the the, the stock market. But under Biden, the stock market hit an all time high last night. Economics, there's no there's no lightning. I I don't know whether that's Biden's policies necessarily or AI just going nuts all of a sudden. So and and and then and then the, and Trump did have to deal with with a sort of, the bottom falling out with with COVID, although they did do the print money strategy, which is always gonna blow up in somebody's face. So, but Can I give you guys a different a very different view? It it went nuts. Sorry. Go ahead, Andrea. I wanna give you guys a different view. So my prediction is that Harris Waltz will get between 310312 of the electoral college folks. There you go. Put it out there in the public space. You can't argue with it because we won't know until November 5th, but I, there's a lot of shenanigans going on. There's, when we talk about the polls show, I find it really interesting because there's a lot of new polls, like, brand new, and they're GOP leaning polls. There is some shenanigans going on in the background that are just like, wow, what's going on here? Like, election interference on the GOP side. People being kicked off, voter registration, all that all that sort of stuff. The media voice, obviously, the Elon Musk factor. There's a really funny story. So Elon Musk is basically leading the Pennsylvania charge, but that's something like that has never happened. And, basically, the inference is, like, he's really gonna screw that up. So I I actually see there's a lot of fear out there at the moment, but I think the fear is manufactured fear because when your people are in fear, they just give up and walk away. And I think that's part of the strategy to win for the GOP, but I actually think, the Democrats are gonna win by a very, very significant amount and potentially get both 1,000 so they can actually do something. So that's that's what I'm seeing. So I'm seeing different things. It's hard because there's this constant battering of negativity coming at us, and all the polls. The other thing that's really striking, it was just came through yesterday, CNN. There's a there's a a data guy for CNN. Have you guys come across him yet? He's got a he's got a real New York accent, which he doesn't fit the typical sort of CNN, sort of cast. But it he's great. He's very entertaining. The thing that's different this time that struggled in the last two elections so I've always said, when it comes to US elections, women vote for the winner, always. And so in 2016, I was really, really disappointed because it meant that the vast majority of white women or a large majority of white women voted for Trump. And for me, any any woman who votes for Trump after the things that he said and done has since been accused of, I just I as a female, I can't understand it. But the figures are basically showing the women are all in for Harris, and, so I feel that this is gonna be definitely a Democrat victory. So let's see who's right in a couple of weeks, Oh, I hope you're right. Oh, yeah. Me too. I I do. I I really do feel confident. I wouldn't have said it otherwise. The other thing that's obviously going on is the wars. I don't know if you guys saw the the head of Hamas, I can't remember his name, was killed today. To potential fantastic murder moment for him, the way it sort of all happened. Netanyahu said it's not the end, but it's the beginning of the end now that this guy's been, taken out. And of course, we're seeing over in Ukraine, Zelensky basically is saying the West Outer supports us or we're going to have to go nuclear to protect ourselves. So that's a potential escalation, and obviously if Trump wins, that's, that's a, that's a big issue when it comes to Ukraine and their sovereignty. So, yeah, though those 2 those 2 situations, and there's other wars, those 2 situations that we just can't afford it. We need we need those over. We need them done, and we need to move forward. How are you guys feeling about what's going on? Well, it's gonna be really hard to avoid the war escalating because it just is. It's going it's it's it's going into higher gears and, you know, I mean, it's it's really impractical. I mean, some of the some of the ideas that are that are spoken about right now is, like, for instance, I heard about I'm talking about the head of Hamas being removed so that, now we can start rebuilding or start doing something. And I'm and I'm going like, yeah. That that that maybe would have worked in, I think, in older warfare. You know? Our our fearless leader is dead. What do we do? But the current the current world we live in is so different because and I and I really put down the social media. Right? Because it used to be you could have movements rise only once enough of the of the the the the big people kind of put it into into motion. But I think there's a groundswell. And it's gonna be out of control in terms of out of Netanyahu's control. He can try to push things in a certain direction. He can have all the best intentions in the world. He can have traditional war strategies to say that this would be the right thing to do. But this has I I think this is this is actually the first of its kind of theater that has occurred with the kind of background that it has in terms of social media, in terms of the stories that can come out of this, the way the way that sentiment, feels as well. I mean, like, one of the first things that I heard after this was one of the mothers of the of the hostages said that as soon as as soon as this happened, she said she just went to overdrive and said, we have to get the hostages out because they're gonna die. Right? I mean, that these are all the kinds of things that would never have happened in the old way. You wouldn't have had negotiations or pleas out in the open. It would have taken some time. You'd have to get to a newspaper. Someone had to cover you, and it had to go out and then, you know, it had to go through all kinds of things. Now it's on the day of the the the event. Now the reactions are out there and it's taking some it's it's moving along as well. So not as not as, not as straightforward to anybody who thinks that the old play the old playbook, the old war playbooks are gonna work because it has completely changed. Yeah. Graham, do you have some thoughts? Yeah. Again, I'm a little bit cynical. I I think there is no doubt that particularly from a US perspective and and a play that there's actually no money in peace, And I think a lot of it's driven by the industrial military complex. And we just need to look at, you know, the $350,000,000,000 that, Amer that Australia announced recently about the, you know, the purchase of nuclear, submarines. And the reality of it is that submarines like old technology, once upon a time, they they were useful because of their stealth. They couldn't be detected. But essentially, the technology exists by most players these days to find a submarine wherever it is. And they just announced yesterday, here in Western Australia that there's now a $20,000,000,000, investment into the redevelopment of the Garden Island, military base, which is literally, you know, 20 kilometers from the center of Perth. And, it's going to be the new, nuclear submarine base, which will be the biggest dry dock area in the southern hemisphere. And it's like, hang on. I mean, this is only just a, like, a few miles up the road. And Mhmm. You have all it's always it always fascinates me how there's $350,000,000,000 to to purchase, you know, a few submarines, but there's not $10,000,000 to build houses for the homeless. I mean, our priorities are just so far out of whack. And Yep. Yeah, call me cynical, but I just wanna know who the, you know, behind the scenes players are that are making these decisions to, to make investments in war has great financial returns. It's almost like the people that get killed are just the, the the the collateral that's, you know, part of the equation. The meat grinder. Right? So, you know, looking at the the heat extremes you went through in Perth last summer, which, scheduled to be even hotter again this year Yep. Yep. You gotta so those those subs are due, what, 20 years' time? Is that the timeframe? Yeah. No. For 2040, I think, the first one takes delivery or something. Right. So I wonder how nuclear submarines are gonna cope in, extreme heat because by that point, you know, we'll be well past the 50 degrees Celsius in the middle of summer. So I wonder if they've sort of factored that into the mix. Just just a thought. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. We've already had up north already had 42 degrees, already this summer, and summer's just a few days old. So, yeah, it's it's gonna be hot. I've already predicted hot already. Yeah. I I I drove to Calcutta and back this week, which is 800 kilometers each way, and the, the Midwest is is parched already. And, it's just crazy. So it's heat heat and and wet because, obviously, it's La Nina. So the East Coast will get get a hammering. But, yeah, it's not looking good. That's all the bomb prediction. Major storms predicted, today and tomorrow. And it's just these localized storms that are so ferocious, in their intensity. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know if you're seeing France getting flooded today. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, these these sort of 20 40 plans in alignment with what the climate scientists are predicting, you're kinda like, yeah. Okay. Should we get into the unless Tim, unless you wanted to jump in? No. It's alright. Let's do quick takes. Alright. Alright. Joe? Well, if you've been wondering for the longest time, who is Christopher Columbus? Well, besides being one of the more popular drag performers in, well, your local bar, Christopher Columbus, of course, the founder or the or the or the well, he was he was the guy that I kinda say found or discovered America when he was actually looking for Asia, which is why, you know, the the idea of, the the the locals or the or the indigenous people are known were known as American Indians. But, anyway, back to who he was. I didn't know there was a whole deal about this, but people have been arguing who he actually was, what his background was. And now we know, thanks to DNA analysis of known descendants as well as his own partial DNA that they were able to analyze, that he was a Sephardic Jew from Western Europe. Now, what does Sephardic mean? Well, he was from Spain, and this was at a time when the Catholics were pushing really hard for anyone who wasn't Catholic to become Catholics. The Muslims and Jews were pressured into becoming Catholics. And I think at the time they were either to convert the Catholic faith or to leave the country. I guess in a way, he left the country. He hasn't left much of a legacy though. I mean, you know, he used to be celebrated a lot more, but based on everything else that he did, I think it's interesting. I think the US, I can't remember the name of the holiday, but, at the same time as being Columbus Day, there there is, there is there is a day that is put aside now to recognize some kind of racial atrocities. So, yeah, that's that's who he is. So we know we know who he is now, and then we can argue on all the other important things in life now. Yeah. So here's a story, that I really admire. So in Ukraine, a group of female soldiers call themselves the witches of Bucha. I can see that as a a Hollywood, film in the future. Totally. Anyway, they they're a volunteer air for air defense unit who are helping to protect Ukraine skies because obviously more and more men are being sent to the front lines now. So they're basically, their role is to shoot down drones and they, they work in the middle of the night and during the day they're doctors and teachers and all sorts of other things. And a lot of them say in the, in this piece that they're, it's really helping them to overcome the powerlessness that they felt when the Russians, basically took over the Bucha region at the beginning of the war. So the leader of this force is a man, of course. And he said about the women, at first, it was like a joke. There wasn't much trust in them in the armed forces, but that has really changed. So as we say in the trenches, you go girls. Tim? Yeah. Nice. Nice. Well, this next story, I'm sure our friend, Everest legend David Lim, I'm I'm sure he appreciated it. The remains of Andrew Sandy Irvine, a 100 years after the mountaineer vanished with George Mallory, is believed to have been found on Everest. The discovery made by National Geographic team found a boot melting out of the ice, and on the sock, there's a red label that has AC Irvine stitched into it. Irvine and Mallory were last seen on June 8, 1924 while attempting to become the first people to reach the top of the world's highest peak. We do we still don't know if they succeeded, but if Irvine and Mallory did, their feat would come some 29 years before Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hillary finally reached the top of Everest. It's kind of That's one. Kind of history sticking out of the ice at the moment. Mhmm. Mhmm. A lot of it. Two observations. Being a Kiwi, we would have to write the Kiwi history books in terms of Hillary being the first. Oh, yeah. Right. Secondly, interesting based on you, Andrew, with heat, obviously, the heat's happening on Everest as well to have a boot that's suddenly melting out of this out of the snow. So, Everest is not immune to climate change either. Oh, so amazing. So in terms of my stuff, it's this big news about the, what's his name, Mark Milley, who's the US Army general that Donald Trump appointed as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, you know, who says the part the the current Republican presidential nominee is is a fascist, to the core, and says that no person has ever posed more of a danger to the United States than the man who served as the 45th president. And this has basically all come out with, Bob Woodward's, new book on on on war. And, he's not the only one. There have been a number of letters that have that have appeared. There was a group of about 10 past generals that also came out with similar comments about the untrustworthiness of of Trump, as because obviously, they were still in the forces when he was president last time. So, interesting to see those people are coming out as well. Isn't that amazing isn't that amazing how the book got released to this time of year? He's in a couple of this year, I think. Polania's book. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Alright, Joe. The lies that killed. Yeah. We're getting, more into the the news right now, but here's a here's a piece that is by the intellectualist. It reflects, the thoughts of quite a few people, you know, I've heard over time as well. It speaks about how Fox News and right wing leaders betrayed America during the pandemic. So what happens what essentially happened is, you know, over time in America, news became a commercial product, and news was allowed to to to thrive in that way. They could make money with the news. That eventually led to news serving audiences. And, for Fox, they chose a side. They were gonna serve conservative America, older America as well. That was their target audience. And they found, over time, that the best way to do this is anger and fear. And things that basically serve those purposes made the news. So the pandemic was one of those things that brought up a lot of that. There was a lot of fear, a lot of argument about information. And actually one of the things that I think makes America great but also weak is this whole idea of free speech. You need to be able to say anything and everything that you wanna say because, what you believe is your truth and everyone must hear it. Right? So during the pandemic, Fox News actually chose a line where they talked about they curated their news. They were not as in line with what was being put out by the Biden administration and actually pretty much the rest of the world. They were carrying ideas and things that were really just, you'd have to flag them as fake news nowadays if you put it on social media, but that's the way it is. And But just pointing out, Joe, it wasn't the Biden administration. It was the Trump administration. Well, it was I mean, yes as well. I mean, it's in both there there there was there's been since then, there've been lots of problems as well. Right? And there isn't like it it it happened. It crossed over, and there's still a push that happened after that time as well. So, yes, it began with Trump, but then into Biden's administration. But it's what it's what Fox did in response to that. Now what also was very dangerous about the whole thing was how the right wing leaders, you know, were trying to serve the same audience. So if you look at the if you look at the target audience of Fox and the target audience of the the GOP, they're pretty similar because in terms of a base, that famous 30% that's keeping them in power, a lot of them are in that Fox camp. So the leaders actually began to take on more of the ideas that were being spoken about, the most, of course, prominent of which was Donald Trump where you could hear something on Fox News, discussed on Fox News, or perhaps one of the right wing media the night before. And the next morning, it would be spoken about, right? Famously, I can't remember the the the name of the thing, but but we we can add we can add Clorox into that as well. I think, one of the one of the ideas that you can you can you can you can use that to to to to to protect yourself against the virus. Anyway, so what what happened was a lot of decisions were were hampered because of that sense of we don't know what we're doing or we don't have an idea what we're doing. So things that could have been done quickly and decisively were not done. All of it made people feel good but there was a real price for it. So now I recently read something about, the the cost of the delay, just a delay in terms of implementing the the the things at the start of the of the pandemic in the US. And it's a human cost. I think they said about a 160,000 lives could have been it's more than that, but a 160,000 lives could have been saved just by implementing some of the stuff quicker. Just as just just saying, okay, we're we're gonna we're gonna get into this right away, instead of stepping back saying, we don't know. And Fox and some of the other right wing media as well were responsible for that because it was kind of a cycle. You would hear it from one of the commentators. You would hear it from their own people. You would hear it from the president. You would hear it, from some of the new right wing leaders that were getting some popularity because of that. And so that went round and round in kind of a circle, and it basically made it very difficult for any kind of scientifically based, opinions to just go right ahead. So, yeah, so this is the this is the the you can look out for it, The Intellectualist. It it's a it's a it's a longer article. It's a deeper take on this, but that's essentially what it was. It's it's talks about how Fox and right wing leaders betrayed America during the pandemic. Okay. You kinda when I was reading it, and you can find it in my weekend reads, which I publish every Saturday. But, how how how is Fox not being held accountable for that? You know, like and and and I'm sure, Joe, you've been seeing all the recent research that's coming out around long COVID and it's devastating impacts. And obviously, America's gonna be having that impact much more than everywhere everywhere else because and in places like the UK because there's just so much COVID in in in their societies. But you look at the devastating impacts on young people, on children, babies in utero whose mother had COVID, and and just, you know, young people dying of cancer and heart attacks, older people, dementia, pancreatitis. I mean, the the list is endless. And I remember when we were talking about it when we first started the show, you know, it's humanity's ability to mess with a virus, you know, not taking a virus seriously. That was just to me, it was at the time, it was crazy. And when I read all the research, I'm like, of course, that's where we are. You know? I think the Chinese, even though most people would say what they did was draconian, they their scientists seem to have an understanding of what was going on with this virus and its potential to do harm. You know, the the links to HIV. You know, there's there's so much to it. And we were we were arrogant about a virus. And I just yeah. I'm still dumbfounded that we ever got there. Well, I I think in terms of what we we can be relied on as, as a race, as a hubris. Right? Our sense that we kind of know what we're gonna do. We can handle this until we don't. But one of the things that I have to be I have to kinda run to the defense of, actually, is the scientists and public health officials. They had a playbook. They knew what to do. They they there actually there there actually was a plan. And to be fair, I mean, we we we saw the plan being run out in Singapore, popular or otherwise, criticized or otherwise. It was a plan, and the plan produced a predictable result. There were certain things that happened that weren't to plan because they weren't planned for. But in the US, they had a different situation. They had a president that, you know, that basically had dismantled, what what was trying to dismantle the the the the the pandemic response team. In fact, I think I think they literally got rid of the pandemic response team, you know, pre pandemic. Right? Yeah. I mean, along with FEMA. I mean, what are the best ideas you have? Right? I mean, save costs, sure. But, yeah, that's that's basically what happened. So it's it's it's scientists were screaming out. They they they wanted things to be done a certain way. You have behavioral sciences. You have people who and especially people who have been working on public health, you know, who've been strategizing, you know, how are we gonna deal with this, how we have to move with this. I mean, the the the the the idiotic thing about what was happening was, other people who are higher or or further along the strategy game were actually getting their supplies from the US. So the US was sending out sending out stuff that they actually needed, but because their policies had not triggered the need for these, these things were actually being sent to China. So China got a lot of its PPEs and everything that helped them deal with the pandemic from the US. And so when it came to it in the end, because they were ahead of the curve, the US then had all these shortages and inability to produce this for themselves and hampered their own response. It was all and and it it wouldn't you know, I I would say that if if public health if if if the people who were in charge of public health were allowed to do what they were supposed to do at the start with the right kind of communication, we could have a very different situation. And what is really scary for me is actually where this goes in future because we've had one round of this, and the likelihood that there'll be another pandemic is actually higher than before. And how we will respond to that now has been severely hampered. Right? Because I don't see America putting up a really strong response to the next pandemic because they've been there, done that, and they feel certain things shouldn't have been done. And there's no signs to back it up, but they feel it's true, and therefore, that's the way they wanna go with it. It comes down to what you were saying before about the whole, this whole thing around freedom. I mean, we we were criticized here in Western Australia or the government was because we basically as soon as it broke, we shut the borders. I mean, I was I was in New Zealand, right there on 11th March, and the borders basically were closed on the Friday all week. And I had to virtually spend hours getting back. And I got back, jumped in the car, drove 4 hours south, and had to go into isolation for 14 days. And so what happened in Australia, effectively, the, rules were handled handed over to the public, health officials. And as as draconian, as many said, that it was to shut the borders and no one could come and go, and created all sorts of, constraints on our freedom and all that sort of stuff. But, like, here in Western Australia, our COVID death rates were the lowest lowest in the world. And so sometimes that to me is is is strong government that sometimes basically has to draw a line in the sand, whereas everyone else was debating about, oh, our personal freedoms are far more important. And yet, in the meantime, millions of people are dying around you supposedly because your freedoms are more important. Again, another sort of priority is out of whack. I think with that one, there's a big this is where the media comes in because what is broadcast and what the narrative is becomes what people say. Mhmm. And so in America, they're saying our freedom, it's about our freedom, it's about our freedom, that becomes the narrative of the people, and then nobody wants to do anything. And if you look at what I mean, media thrives on on bad news, and usually they have to sort of manufacture a little bit of bad bad news or at least put a, you know, sort of expand it a little bit beyond what it is. But a pandemic was globally horrific news that was, like, basically pouring water, pouring, petrol on a on a bonfire and with with the media just going nuts. And so anything they could find that was they just they play and I'm talking about the American media in particular. The Murdoch Media. Murdoch Media. Yeah. And and just any of those sort of conspiracy now the I mean, all the conspiracy theories going out there just fed the narrative that cause people not to play by the you know, if Churchill had been around and come out and gone, you know, we've gotta fight this pandemic and do this, everyone would just gone laughed at him and said no because because of the way the media was today. Right? It's Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? It's, it just so I I think and the thing is the media gets away with it because of their freedom of speech and because the media's job is to find different stories, and it really wasn't them saying it. It was that guy. But whoever's editing it and curating it is is driving a narrative, and that narrative was very destructive for the US. Yeah. Misinformation and disinformation are just, why how can it be allowed as part of a new source? I just I I I I struck I'm still struggling with that. But, I mean, journalistic integrity is gone. Well, totally gone, and and therefore, no one trusts anyone. Right? So moving on to another topic. So 2 weeks ago, leading scientists revealed the 20 24 state of the climate report, and it had the emphasis perilous times on planet Earth. So the first few sentences of the report are definitely enough to explain the critical phase we're at, so I'll just quickly read them. We are on the brink of an irreversible climate disaster. This is a global emergency beyond any doubt. Much of the very fabric of life on earth is imperiled. We are stepping into a critical and unpredictable news new phase of the climate crisis, and, of course, we're seeing that all around us. At the same time, the World Wildlife Fund Foundation, WWF, released its flagship Living Planet report, revealing a catastrophic 73% decline in the average size of global wildlife populations in just 50 years, so another system in peril. And then just thirdly, there was a Guardian article this week and it was titled, trees and land absorbed almost no CO 2 last year. Is nature's carbon sink failing? So I'll just talk about this one a little bit more because this is to me what the bit the biggest challenge about this news is. The sudden collapse of natural carbon sinks has never been factored into climate models. So what that means is rapid acceleration could occur, and we're seeing rapid acceleration. Johan Rockstrom, who's the director of the Potsdam Institute, and you might know him as the lead author of the 9 planetary boundaries, said we are seeing cracks in the resilience of the Earth's systems. We're seeing massive cracks on land. Terrestrial ecosystems are losing their car carbon store and carbon uptake capacity, but the oceans are also showing signs of instability. None of the models have this factored in. So, basically, what climate scientists can do pretty easily is measure our pollution and our emissions, but what they can't measure effectively yet, because there's just the sheer number and the complexity of the processes, is how the natural world sequesters carbon. Right? So the climate scientists are worried about climate change not because of the things that are in the models, but the knowledge that the models are missing certain things. So that's something I've talked about before. At least a 118 countries are relying on the land to meet their climate targets. So what that means is they're not doing the other things that could also help them meet their climate targets because the land is gonna do it for them, but the reality is it isn't. Or they're not sure anymore than it is. Right? So this is a really important thing. So I've always said when you look at the climate story, you've gotta look at the what we know, but you've also gotta go down to what we don't know. And what we don't know is huge. Like, there's so much that's going on in Antarctica, and we don't know. Carb soil is one of the biggest, sequesters of carbon. But as soon as you dig soil up soil up, it releases carbon. So before we leave Phuket, I'll be driving around and I just see these huge swathes of land where they chopped all the trees down, dug up all the dirt, and they're ready to build the latest villa complex. Right? That that earth has released all of the carbon that was stored in it. And we're seeing that all all over the all over the earth. We're not we're not paying attention to it. So but what we don't know is actually now when people say to me, why is it accelerating? It's like because what we don't know is happening too, And, and that's, that's where the problem is. So this is a really big, big issue in the last couple of weeks. This year has been horrendous. It's probably it's the 1st full year that we'll probably be above 1.5 warming. Do do you guys know that? So, basically, with in in 9 years, if it's still above 1.5, we're we're past 1.5 threshold, but it's the 1st full year that we'll be past it. So it's not looking good. It's not looking good at all. How how do they, measure that the the trees in the land haven't done their job? Because it could have been the oceans. I mean, I don't I don't get it. Obviously, I'm not sure how they do the actual scientific bit of that. But, but but just look at the amount of, forest fires that are going on in the Amazon, the Panasol region, both in Brazil and in and in South America, the Canadian fires, the subaeron fires, the amount of emissions just from those fires Is a is a country's worth of emissions. You know? So The other the other one, I remember doing a, a piece on offsetting your emissions. Strangely enough, my solution was planting trees, but if they're all burning, it's not gonna be great. But the, but it was about 75% was being sequestered by the oceans, and particularly plankton was involved. But Yeah. 90%. 90%. Does the if the so it'll be interesting to see what the plankton numbers are like. Yeah. So that no. So that's that's suffering too. Like, so it's all suffering. So the plankton basically sequesters the carbon and it drops down to the bottom of the ocean. So that that's that's an issue. So, yeah, there's there's all these different pieces Yeah. You know, that are happening. Taking all the krill out of the ocean. Krill poop is full of carbon and it's dropping to the ocean, but they're taking it all out. It's actually more worth more in the ocean, and it's good for the whales. It's worth more in the ocean than supplements for us. You know? So there's all this stupid stuff going on. It's really crazy what we're doing to ourselves. Well, I'm running out of ways to explain how bad this is. And in fact, that's the title of the next piece, which is, a piece in the Atlantic. I'm running out of ways to explain how bad this is. I think we've all noticed the crazy myths and disinformation going on in the US in recent weeks, especially around the hurricanes. Have you been across that, the hurricanes? It's dangerous. The first the first line in this particular article is, what's happening in America today is something darker than a misinformation crisis. And then it starts with, the truth is it's getting harder to describe the extent to which a meaningful percentage of Americans have disassociated from reality as and this is the article saying, as hurricane Milton churned across the Gulf of Mexico last night, I saw an onslaught of outright conspiracy theorizing and utter nonsense, racking up millions of views across the Internet. The posts would be laughable if they weren't taken by many people as gospel. So even in a decade marred by online grifters, shameless politicians, and an alternative right wing media complex pushing anti science fringe theories, the events of the past few weeks stands out for their depravity and nihilism. A patchwork network of influencers and fake news peddlers have done their best to so distrust, stoke resentment, and interfere with relief efforts, but this is more than just a misinformation crisis, to watch as real information is overwhelmed by crank theories and public servants battle, and public service public servants are battling death threats. It's crazy, to confront 2 alarming facts. 1st, that a durable ecosystem exists to ensconce citizens in an alternate reality. Right? And then second, that the people consuming and amplifying those lies are not helpless dupes, but willing participants. Donald Trump, JD Vance, Elon Musk, and Fox News have all been part of this, and the result of this fear mongering is angry, embittered citizens harassing government employees in North Carolina as well as FEMA employees, and we've seen this become reality with emergency crews evacuated because of threats from local militias. As Joe referenced in his early article of pandemics or Americans distrustful of authority, trying to discredit effective vaccines, spreading conspiracy theories, and attacking public health officials. But what feels novel in the aftermath of this month's hurricanes is how the people doing their the lying aren't even trying to hide the provenance of their bull I've got my I've got my own bleep machine. The reality of fracturing because this is isn't a heated one, this one. The reality fracturing is the result of an information ecosystem that's dominated by platforms that offer financial and attentional incentives to lie in a range. In fact, you you get millions of views, you're gonna get all this money coming in, so you're gonna just do whatever you're gonna do to get the views. It's it's nuts. Right? And to turn, you know, the the people are looking to turn every tragedy and large event into a shameless content creation opportunity. This collides with a sway of people who would rather live in an alternate reality built on distrust and grievance than change their fundamental beliefs about the world. But the misinformation crisis is not always what we think it is. Michael Corfield, an information researcher at the University of Washington argued, the primary use of misinformation is not to change the beliefs of other people at all. Instead, the vast majority of misinformation is offered as a service for people to maintain their beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. This distinction is important in part because it assigns agency to those who consume and share obviously fake information. Now, of course, there's a portion of people who think that the 3 little baby owls flying on the mother owl was an amazing photo, but, really, it's just AI. But there's but we're talking about this sort of news, conspiracy theories about hurricanes, and all that sort of stuff. What we're witnessing online during and in the aftermath of these hurricanes is a group of people desperate to protect the dark, fictitious world they've built rather than deal with the realities of a warming planet hurling once in a generation storms at them every few weeks, they'd rather malign and threaten meteorologists, who in their mind are, quote, this is from an ex user, nothing but a trained subversive liar. This is they're saying the meteorologist is nothing but a trained subversive liar programmed to spew stupid to support the global warming bull I mean, honestly, they're, you know, they're not trusting a meteorologist whose job is to tell you the weather Mhmm. And what's what's going wrong. But anyway, their efforts are doomed, futile. As one disputed meteorologist wrote wrote on Excess Week, murdering meteorologists won't stop hurricanes. She followed with, I just can't believe I had to type that. This is a cultural assault on any personal institution that operates in reality. If you're a weather person, you're a target. Same goes for journalists, election workers, scientists, doctors, and first responders. These jobs are different, but the thing they share is that they all must attend to and describe the world as it is. This makes them dangerous to people who cannot abide by the agonizing constraints of reality, as well as those who have financial and political interest in keeping up the charade. In one sense, these attacks and their increased desperation make sense. The world feels dark for many people. It's tempting, and for for many people, it's tempting to meet that with a retreat into the delusion that they've got everything figured out, that the powers that have, you know, must have conspired against them directly. But in turning away, they exacerbate a crisis that has characterized the Trump era, one that will reverberate to election day and beyond. Americans are divided not just by political beliefs, but by whether they believe in a shared reality or desire one at all. Yeah. But I but you can see this around the world too. It's not just America. Right? I mean, I think America's the most extreme. We saw a lot of it in Australia. We see a lot of it in the UK. I don't really see that sort of stuff in Asia. Yeah. I don't know if you guys have seen any of that in Asia, but, there seems to be more of a consensus sort of building sort of cultures in this part of the region. But you kinda when when I was watching that play out, I mean, you know, you can't ignore a hurricane. Like, there's How how is that? There's no you know, there's government. And and then and then, apparently, the the government can create hurricanes. Yeah. And I was like that. I I was like, but I thought I thought, I thought climate change wasn't real. You know? So the deniers you know? So it was a really it was kind of like a it's like it's a real loop. You know? And and you try and get into their heads and you just say, how do how do people think this? How do they believe this? You know, what that reality that they exist in just doesn't make any sense to me. And and I've had conversations with people who have very strange beliefs, which I'm very happy to have. But I still struggle. Like, I really struggle with how people can like, something right in our face. You know, there's no denying what's right in our face, and they still can. You know And what does that mean? And how are we gonna deal with what we need to deal with as a you know? And does it does it take away any hope that we're gonna be able to overcome the challenges that we face? That's the big issue for me. Yeah. So this this is, for for me, I I think the problem is is is one of taking reality for granted. Not stay with me for a while. I mean, the the the no one should have to say the sky is blue, the oceans are wet, whatever. No one should have to say all the things that are patently true or we feel are patently true. But what happens is what's what's what's what's what's happened in in America particularly is you have, I would say, an audience that has managed to be largely uninformed about a number of things in the world because things have just been taken for granted. This is just the way things are. No one's actually explained something. So if I were to enter that kind of a world and suddenly I I talk about something and I give you some kind of a motive or a reason of how this could happen or that could happen, whatever it is, and if it's the first time you've had that discussion, you're gonna be easily led down that path. So the problem that I see, which is something that I'm trying to work on in the world actually, is better science communication. We need people to be able to go out there and talk about how the world actually works, why things actually are happening, before they start actually happening. So communicating, over communicating the things that are basically that that we literally take for granted. And and we've gotta be we've gotta be we've gotta be aware enough to go, like, no. It's not it's not to be expected that people are just gonna follow your whims and say, okay, yeah, the institution is saying this, therefore I should believe you. The institution needs to invest. When there's nothing to dispute, they need to invest in making themselves more credible. They need to be, you know, spending that time. What happens generally is that institutions are set up. The assumption is that we believe in them. And so it is they're instantly authorities, and they don't have to spend time establishing or reestablishing their authority. And so when it comes to it, they're actually quite shaky because, I mean, I think I think you've all been there in a in a situation where, for instance, during a meeting with relatives or whatever it is you get together and you realize that, oh, I don't know who this person is. I don't never never never heard them before, but you realize that there's somebody pretty senior in the family. And we're supposed to listen to them, but they don't have much credibility with us because we haven't thought much about it. We haven't seen them before. They haven't spent any time trying to to let us know who they are. Now we're supposed to follow their advice. You know, that's a that's a notion perspective. Right? Because Well, I was gonna I was gonna mention this this thing about individualism versus the sort of community focus over in Asia where it's very family related and and relational. And I was doing a a medical ethics, class early in the week, and one of the slides at the beginning had, talking about elements of the the medical ethics, was talking about individuals. We are individuals in community, and that's what human beings are. We are individuals in community. So the whole idea of individualism and sovereign Karen saying, you know, it's all about me and my rights, has has a has a fundamental problem because of the community nature of where that individual is located. And so and and the comment in that was in the lecture that I I thought is really interesting was about the language of rights is insufficient to describe the complex relationship between individuals and community. And so what we're seeing is people exercising their right to lie or freedom of speech or to earn money on the Internet at the at the, you know, at the cost of truth or Other people's rights. Other people I mean, the community. Right? The community's rights. And and so That's that's that's what I find really yeah. It's like what I find really. Community. I just want the community's money to come to me. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Hey. I'm I'm wondering because because, you know, I I've gotta I've gotta jump off in 20 minutes. Graham, would you mind if we jumped past this one and just got into the woke mind virus theme? Is that alright? Not a problem at all. Yeah. Alright. Cool. So we're gonna talk on about European migration, which is becoming a big issue. They're they're doing a sit down today in Europe where they're gonna come to an agreement on what to do about migrant migration in in Europe. So that's worth keeping an eye on. But the theme today is the woke mind virus. And when I proposed it to, Tim and Joe, they said we're at risk of getting canceled for even even discussing it. And, to me to me, it's it's just crazy. Right? That, you know, come on. We gotta be able to talk about it. But, you know, before we talk about it, I wanted to I canceled Joe. I wanted to give you a definition. So, it goes back to the, like, the early 19 thirties, and there's a a song by a guy called Lead Belly, Scottsboro Boys. And the the words are, so I advise everybody, be a little careful when they go through Alabama. Stay woke. Keep their eyes open. So it's part of the, the the movement within the black community, just the dangers that they're in and the social issues that they were facing, and that they that they have to be sort of really conscious of politics of race, class, gender, systemic racism, and the ways that society is stratified and not equal. Another definition in the first one was aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues, especially issues of racial and social justice. And the second definition is politically liberal as in matters of racial and social justice, especially in a way that is considered unreasonable or extreme. So, look, I always say, you know, I'm proudly woke. It was very interesting to go into to go in and look at this, like, rather than just what I think it is, to actually go and look at it. So the term the wake mind virus was, Dawkins, I think, came up with it, like, in the eighties or something. But Elon Musk has made it very popular. But, Tim, I thought I wanted to get you to start. You made a comment. You have an issue with woke militarism, and I had never heard anyone use that phrase before. So do you wanna start with maybe describing what you mean by woke militarism? I I mean, I think Yeah. My my comment on that was it it just seems that everybody's being, you know, the the the definition of work that you described was effectively sociology and and being aware of the sociological ecosystem as and and how things impact other things to a degree. Within human nature and within communities and within our communities function and how communities dysfunction, and break down and where those challenges are. Woke militarism, I mean, I use I use that term only because it it was more a people being beaten down by someone who's, more woke than thee. Woke here than thou. You know what I mean? And it's and and and then and then it's it's I I just felt, people can disengage in the end if they're getting shot down by the by by people saying, well, you're obviously not woke. You you don't understand what's going on. You're out of it. You're you're a dinosaur. You're disengaged. You you got your head in the sand. You're all of this sort of stuff to just basically shut people up, dismiss their opportunity to learn, actually. Yeah. And I see that in the climate movement. Have a discussion. And so instead of just going, let's have a dialogue, they just shoot them. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's funny. It's it's something I see in the climate movement. You know, there's people who are just coming into awareness, and then you got these people who have been tracking it for years. They're just shooting them down. And I'm like, that's not gonna help anyone. But, Graham, you're you're you're proudly woke and you talk about a lot. And I've seen some of your conversations that, you you've had on social media where you've got friends who probably similar in view to you and you've got other friends who kind of attack, some of some of the ideas. But, you know, talk talk to us about what it means to you. Well, I guess as an old Mark Twain said, if you label me, you negate me. And I think sometimes when someone comes from, might be trying to have an argument about looking for the vulnerable or, someone that's being attacked because of their gender or their financial status or whatever it is, it's almost as from the other side, it's like, oh, just another woke bleeding heart as though, yes, it's all very well to have pity on those, but but what are you actually doing about it? And so I think it's from my observation, it's generally comes from the almost as a throwaway line from the right because it tends to infer that poor people are poor because of their own fault. Fat people are fat because of their own fault. Gender is a a a social choice and all this sort of dismissive stuff, and it all gets sort of labeled into this thing thing. It's almost like, oh, well, yeah, come you're just woke. And then but I agree with that with Tim. On the other side of it, there are those who, if you're like, in some of those vulnerable groups who quickly play the victim card, and their their power is almost in their in their victimhood. So, hopefully, I try and keep a fairly centrist view on it. But using the definition, the purest definition that you alluded to, Andrea, where, you know, I'm concerned about the vulnerable, about the homeless as I as I alluded to very early early on. There's there seems to always be money for submarines, but not to house and take care and feed that feed the vulnerable. And and whenever you start to go down that particular path, there are certain, you know, commentators on on my my personal time to sign. It's like, yeah. But, you know, we live in a meritocracy, and, it's a free market world. And, you know, if you didn't take the opportunity that was in front of you, well, that's your fault. It's not mine. And it comes back to talking with few groups this this week. And in my, you know, belly week, which is all in customer service, unfortunately, in business, we tend to be operating in a me world, not a we world. And, and that you alluded to it before, I think what I admire, particularly around Asian culture, is is the responsibility of taking care of family. We're very much in the western world. When your parents get old, where's the nearest, old folks home that we can basically put them in and, abrogate our responsibilities and hope bodies hope somebody takes care of them. So whereas I I I admire the Asian ethic of, you know, we take care of all the generations. But to to have that almost discussion in Australia, if you start having about that, oh, it's like you get accused being woke because you're caring about the other peoples in your society. So, I I think it's just become for many people, it's a bit almost that misinformation stuff. They it it it's what they believe. If someone accuses you of being woke, it's almost their way it's they use it as a form of attack rather than understanding of, no. I'm coming from a position, hopefully, of heart, of caring for those that are around me. And often I'll say to some people, you know, when was the last time you stopped to buy a homeless person a cup of a cup of coffee on the street? I'm saying, well, why would I do that? Well, why would you not give help to another human bearing being who's down on their luck? Oh, yeah. But people who are on welfare, they're all bludgers, and they don't wanna get a job, and they don't wanna work. It's like, yeah, there may be 1 or 2%, but I but 98% of people aren't poor out of choice. Yeah. It's recognizing, you know, that we don't all get the same opportunities with education or health care or parents or communities or societies. You know, there's so many things, you know, and then you've got wealthy people, you know, who with that attitude. That's, that's the thing that I struggle with too, Graeme. It's like, it's compassion, you know. And I wanna live in a world where we we where we where that's a pro where where taking care of everyone in our community is a priority. You know? You know, people look at drug addicts, and they don't wanna they don't wanna address it. They're just like losers. Let them die. That sort of attitude. Well, but why don't we why don't we build a society where we can help those people overcome it? Because nobody nobody goes down that path. Because they've started from a really great place and had great opportunities, they're they're going down that path because something traumatic has happened to them in their lives. Right? Yeah. I was I was reading out the other day about the place in Scandinavia where there are no homeless people because, collectively, they have taken care of the homeless and they've built communities where the homeless can go if they don't have a roof over their head tonight. And it's the same thing. Their their education is free. Whereas now you have a situation, there's a new poor, in Australia, you know, where kids are leaving with a university degree and a $100,000 plus hex debt university fee. They can't get money to buy a home because they are deemed to be, financial risks because of, the debts imposed by the government for them to to to get an education. You know? Whereas an offer went to university, and this is the crazy thing, most of the politicians in Canberra all went to university at a time when tertiary degrees were free. Yeah. And then they say, well, it's your fault. It's your fault. You're poor. Man, my second yeah. Exactly. My second year of uni is when the, HECS started. Joe, what do you think? Well, I I I think this is about ex that's why I talk about in terms of the spectrum. Right? There there is a there is a spectrum and then the labels we get and what the labels mean to each other on the different ends of the spectrum or different in different areas of the spectrum. So, I I was gonna come up with an analogy which, was supposed to make it easier, but I realized if I bring up religion, it's probably gonna make it even worse. But, you know, like, I I don't think anyone really has problems with the basic ideas of being woke, to be aware of other people, to care for other human beings, to be, you know, to to to have all those concerns. I think that what happens is there is the cranked up version of it. There is the there is the there is the, the arms race of wokeism. Right? I mean, the the the the the you know, like, I mean, this is not a new thing. It's been around for a long time. It was called political correctness before, but it just got to the point again where you can't say this, you'll have to say this instead. You can't say this, you can't have you can say this instead. And you can see documents, you can see all kinds of things getting more and more complicated as we try to make more and more provisions for everyone, so that we had inclusion. And what happened with what what happened is we we we we we kind of overstepped it. We we, overcranked it as in like, you know, one one of the phenomena that I like to point out to people, and and it's a bit controversial as we start, but when when we when I'm driving in Singapore, and I noticed that's there's a car that is there's a particular car that that's driving in kind of a driving quite erratically, you know, in in the traffic. Right? And they're not drunk, but there's just some there's something something that's sort of strange about it. And I'm I'm not about to say women drivers. I'm actually gonna say foreign drivers. We we tend to we tend to it tends to be for me when I see that. I I I especially when it's a nice, bigger car, it tends to be someone from some somewhere else in the world. And I was I was thinking about Joe. You're talking about me. Yeah. That's alright. I love the car. I got a ticket for it as well. No. But it's it's just thinking about what people tend to do when they think about what they should be doing. Right? And and it's it's oversteering. You know, that happens in in in in performance, in companies. You know, there's this feedback that's about this. And so instead of just doing the little slight adjustment that you have to do, sometimes all you have to do is just say, hey. I'm I'm sorry. I didn't know you you thought about that. Let me let me try and be better about that. And that's actually enough instead of going like, okay. Now we're gonna have 3 microwave ovens, one for people who do have to microwave their fish. You know, it's it's it's that overcompensation. It's that over, stretching, which which sometimes doesn't take into account the the the the cost on the other side, as in there is a kind of way of accommodating that maybe sometimes isn't as attractive to someone who wants to solve the problem right now. This is how we must solve this problem right now. And if you are dragging your feet about this or you're thinking any more about this, then you, my friend, are not good enough to be in our company. You're not woke. And it's like, nah, you know, we don't so the woke mind virus is actually a I mean, it's a big it's a huge put down. It's not inaccurate in terms of describing the way it kinda works. Right? I mean, like, if you think about it, it is about an idea. It is about how people pick up the idea and then they do something about that. And I think any you know, if if you have, if you had a friend, I've I've been this person before, so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna fess up to it. But, you know, that person who discovers multilevel marketing. Right? And how they get into it and how they behave and how they push and how they wanna say all the you know, to do this and you get to the meetings and there's ultra positivity and and you can't say this because you cannot because that that doesn't that that's gonna that's gonna kill your dreams or you can't, you know, you can't give you you can't work on the feedback because that, you know, it it it it it hurts people or it makes people unsure of themselves. There there there are all kinds of things that happen. Sensitive. Happens is there is also there are also people who do do it and and who do it well. And they're and they're they're comfortable to be around and their friends as well. They they they come from the same cloth, but someone is doing it too much, to the point where other people who are not in it go like, okay, you guys pull it. But it's not all of them. It's it's the same way. So people there there are lots of people who are woke, if you look strictly at what the definition was. So people who are who are decent human beings who look after their neighbors, they may not go all the way and try and reach out of the community and to to to to to try and fix the world. But their world, they're kinda looking at at looking out for each other as well. And for someone to come up from the outside and say, you know what? That's that's that's not enough. That's the thing that that is, I think, is upsetting and and and spreads it kinda takes people apart. This idea that yeah. Could I, can I just jump in? Because I've gotta jump off in a couple of minutes for the first time ever. I'll be leaving before you guys. To me, it works almost like feminism. It it got to the point where women didn't even wanna admit they were feminists even though they were. And, the extreme feminism, you you always need the extremes to come back to the middle, I believe. So that's because there's kind of a sort of a the moves the world moves like that. The politicization of wokeness, I think, you know, this idea when when I was really researching it, the people who are using it as a condescending term, it's because they wanna retain the status quo. Right? So, why would you wanna retain the status quo? Why would you wanna retain a world where social inequality is so poor and it's getting worse? And and a lot of the people who use the words are also sitting in the society where they're suffering, but they're still using the words to support, you know, the masks of the world. And, you know, Elon Musk talking about the work mind virus, a lot of that's to do with his own daughter, his transgender daughter and his anger about that. Right? But there's, there's there's a couple of things. So one of them is identity politics is part of it, which, of course, I'm not you you guys know me. I'm not part of that. Cancel culture. Every now and again, no. You've gone too far. You've said something you've you've said the wrong thing. You should be called out. But I think that's that's become a bit a bit extreme, and I think it's very dangerous because it doesn't leave any room for grace, for people to grow up, for people to fur be for forgiven. Victimhood is associated with wokeness. Well, you know, obviously, I'm not gonna be a a fan of victimhood. The threat to meritocracy is another big one, and Elon Musk talks about that a lot. Meritocracy is an interesting one for me because in the past, the only merit that you needed was to be a white man. Right? A lot of a lot of the women, and I've seen a lot of women or or DII DEI sort of placements where the person that's put in the position, so it could be a female or a person of color or a minority group, and they're, they're, they're basically putting to file, you know, so, and, and they don't have the mentorship and the support in their earlier career to be able to move into that role, but they're put into that role to, to meet a quota. And I don't agree with that either. Like, yeah, exactly. And it's, it's, it's, it makes it just makes a a joke of everything. And the other one is obviously, language policing. But, you know, I think it's on all of us. You know, we we we talk about some pretty sensitive issues here, and we all really think about how we're gonna say what we're gonna say to create the smallest amount of offense possible because we respect people. Right? We're not doing it. We're not censoring ourselves. We're we're being very deeply thoughtful. And I think that's what we all need to be doing. And a lot of the people who were using the wokeness thing, you know, Rhonda Santos, right? He's not deeply thoughtful, man. He doesn't even know who he is. He was a Trump wannabe there for a while until, until that failed him. Right? And, you know, just just the whole show that he put on around the hurricanes. But anyway so I've gotta go. But Just one just one thing quickly before you go, Andrea. But also, you've also got because of the almost like the social media superstars like the Jordan Petersons of this world. Yeah. Made by by Russia, apparently. So they're like they'll put these sort of people up on an altar, and it's almost like anything that they say I believe in. So you have someone like we've got this new guy, what's his name, Konstantin Kissam, the guy out of the UK, the guy that was born in the USSR, who was on the diary of a CEO the other day. It's worth watching. And it's like Yeah. He's just has this label called woke, and anything that's woke is, like, contrary to his beliefs. And so Yeah. I'm I'm just like, just does my head in. So people just oh, he's Jordan Peterson says so, so therefore, I agree with everything that Jordan Peterson says. And he sort of is rather disparaging of wokeness at times, so I'll just use the word woke without really getting a true personal understanding of what it means to them and their and how it aligns with their own personal values. Yep. Yep. Well, Andrew, we we I'm gonna send I'm gonna send you off. I'm gonna send you off, and you have to leave this place in the, in the clumsy hands of some gentleman. We'll see how we we break this. Be hide yourselves. Try. Well, you know, I mean, look. I I I I I think the challenge sometimes is about how we insulate ourselves from ideas. Right? And I and I think when when, when when you're when you're on either side of it, you're trying to protect yourselves and your ideas. And then it's and and it it is a very natural thing to want to defend yourself because what what you what you are actually saying, when when you are truly open to discussing here other ideas is you are prepared to be wrong. And for things that are so close to your belief system, you're actually in in in some way saying, I'm prepared to die. I'm prepared to stop being who I am so that this new person can evolve or or come out of this. And that is quite threatening. And when both sides tend to be looking at each other that way, that you're either this or that, that's the real challenge. So using a term that that comes from the world of woke, I think, that can be useful for everyone is to be to to allow for non binary ideas in terms of, you know, wokeism, for instance. I mean, the there there is there is the there the most woke person in the world, I believe, is gonna choose to save their mother over a a stranger. I mean, that's that's no matter what the reasons are, whether this person has had all the whether they've had a tough life before this particular moment, my mom has had a good life, she's in there has to be room for that so that in review, you shouldn't have to go like, okay, what should be the right thing to do here? You go like, okay, this happened. This is what we did. We think about all the things we have. We we we we we have the conflicts, and then we decide, and then sometimes we have to deal with it after the fact. And I think, I I I think woker than thou is an idea that happens all the time. I'm not, you know, I'm I'm not just woke. I'm super woke. Yep. Yep. No. I agree with you entirely. And I think it comes back to, as you say use the, the word, Joe, around, you know, the decisions. Again, working again with these groups this week, one of the things I start with is, from a business point of view, is very much around values. And the one thing I know to be sure is that the clearer one's values are, the the easier decisions become because values become the filters through which we're making these decisions. You know, if we truly wanna know what someone's behavior is, we just need to observe them because all all behavior is based in values. And I think a lot of people don't set my observation, it's a, you know, call me on it if you want, but a lot of people don't take the time to actually identify what their true values values are. To have those own thoughts within their own minds about, you know, if I was faced with this dilemma, which way would it go? And of course, well Yeah. Without those without those values, you're pretty much floundering because there's really no basis for you upon which you can actually make a decision in the moment. Yeah. You know? So I'm gonna have all four clear values, you know? Yep. So then what happens when you can't make the decision? You tend to follow the crowd. Yep. And then and that information that the media has pumped out or whatever that crowd has said, you get on board and then you work it out as you go along. And you if you have the courage to change your mind later, great. But it's sad that it ends up that way anyway. Well, you follow the crowd because in the moment that's the easiest option to take. Yeah. And then Well, it's also because we we we carry around with us all these algorithms. You know, we we are we are designed to learn shortcuts. That's really how our brains work. Right? So that you can walk through a door without getting confused how the how the mechanism, you know, is supposed to work and the physics of it because you you create a shortcut. And I I think what what what I hope this program does or this show does is it actually helps empower some other people to sort of embrace the idea that, you know what? Life is more complicated. Let's be more complicated. Let's be more sophisticated. Right? I I I think, why why we face the problems around wokeism now as it is and why it's easy to create, you know, you fall into either camp. You know, you can't even be you can't even you can't even be a hybrid because that isn't right. You know, there's the the how could you how like, the the the the idea of, for instance, how America how how how can you be a woman and support Donald Trump? How can you know? That that kind of dichotomy, that that really is kind of saying, well, you know what? The the this it actually is, if if I can take us into a meta place, you have to be really woke about MAGA to understand why they are the way they are. Right? You you you have to be in their heads, in their space to understand that, a woman in America is not just a woman. She's an economic being. She has a business. She has all these other things that make her an American as well. She may have very much, you know, she may she may be very much the second amendment and the first amendment, whatever it is. I mean, I've had conversations with American friends that are so infuriating because they have different values in terms of what they're entitled to say as in like, you know, we we should be able to say whatever it is. I should be free to offend. I should be able to burn a flag. I you know, whatever it is. It's it's a it's a whole series of, again, short hands, shortcuts that they have designed in in in their mind so that it works. And what happens is there's a bit of, Darren Brown. Is this Darren Brown? The the the the guy who who wrote the, Da Vinci Code and stuff like that. There's a lot of that going on. Dan Brown. Yeah. There's a lot of that going on, I think, with the with the political leaders because what you do is you take bits of those things and then you manipulate it to develop or or or or get a base. What they're doing is they're trying different things and this thing catches fire. Donald Trump is really clever in the in in the sense that he looks at what's getting what's what's kind of popular, and he just hops on it. And there's a bit of a wave to ride, and and he amplifies the wave. And and after a while, he's done. He has no real investment in it, but he's trying to get the most he can from the wave. So We're giving credit where credit due. He's the master at populist politics. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think also what happens in terms of people's capacity to think individually is that there is obviously safety in the tribe. They don't wanna be ostracized in the tribe. They the tribe provides them with a sense of belonging, and that sense of belonging is important for their own protection and their own existence. It comes up as to people say, well, you know, why wouldn't you leave an abusive relationship? Well, because I don't know. I don't like my abusive relationship, but at least I'm I'm I'm comfortable in my discomfort because of the fear of the unknown is far more fearful than where I am right now. So I will just stay, and I'll basically stay within my tribe and Yeah. Sing the the the tribe's choir to remain to have that sense of security. And just because to swim against the tide takes a lot of courage and a lot of energy. So that's that's the view we have on the outside. New resources. Sorry? Yeah. It also takes new resources. So sometimes those people don't know what's out there that can help them. Yep. And so they like you said, they they're fearful of being alone Yeah. And being beaten seems to be the better option. I mean, it sounds terrible, but Yeah. It's I don't know. I mean, the way of integrity the way of integrity by Martha Beck is a great read. It's like her coming out as, as feminine gay in the Mormon church and what it took her in terms of the courage to basically leave that that tribe. It's a it's a great read, but it comes back to that that personal integrity of your own personal beliefs and being able having the courage to stand on those beliefs in the face of everything else that you've already that you've been brought up and everything else that you know. It's it's a great read. Mhmm. I I I think the problem we face is the inadvertent glamorization of different roles. Right? I mean, somebody might be so so you hear about stories like this on the extremes where someone has to stand up, represent themselves, and be somebody that they they discover themselves, and there's a whole journey, and and that becomes the big Hollywood movie. And every life is kind of being being, compared to that sort of thing. But I think sometimes what really is just happening is someone is in the supermarket, and they're facing a long line, and somebody is taking longer to do something. And and and that can just be all that there is to it. But then we we we we look at things through a filter, and someone can see that the economic system is busted because this is what happened. Someone can see that there is, there seems to be a a certain kind of a person that's working behind the counter, and that reflects something that's happening with the immigration story. You know, there's the there's the feeling that the prices of things are going up so high because it's been I've I've heard about it. And, yeah, I never noticed before. I mean, like, I'll I'll be honest about some things. I mean, I I have not known what the price of eggs were. I still don't know for sure the price of eggs. And if you ask me, do I know the price of eggs today, I don't. But if I'm asked about the price of eggs and suddenly I see that the price of eggs now is $3 something a tray in Singapore, And I have a reference point that is the last time I was told about the price of eggs when I was a kid was 12¢. You know, it's a it's a viable story. Right? So the same we can apply to to to things like wokeism. We can we can we can say, okay, there's things like institutional we talk about institutional racism. There there is there is, again, somewhere in between where it sits. Right? It's the the thing like someone says, it's it's like someone who is the difference between manslaughter and murder, for instance. Right? Someone may have done something. They've caught there is there is a a negative outcome for it, but they didn't intend to do this. They didn't they didn't go out and do that. They weren't a murderer. So why do you call someone who does something that did disadvantage a particular racial group a racist, when all they were were they they they were doing things the way things were done. They didn't have any bad intentions. They might have thought they were doing some great things, but they're not racist. But they get called racist. And now what happens is you get you you you make people step back and defend themselves and step further into their shells, and you've taken on the role of someone who is pointing a finger at me saying I'm this horrible thing when I'm just here at the supermarket trying to buy some stuff. Yeah. It's interesting because, sometimes I think the word woke is, is just a catchall. It's a bit like me being an old white boomer. It's a throwaway line that somehow explains my behavior or my thoughts, and and I think one of the things I tend to do not enough is, you know, when being accused of being woke is just to politely say, okay. So just to be clear, what is it that you actually mean by the word woke? And often people go, well, it's it's just woke. You know, I know you're saying the word woke, but what do you actually mean by that? Because when I know what you mean by it, then I can effectively respond because it's a bit like as Andrea said before. Are you just you just, a rabbit feminist? You know, what do you mean by feminist? And as you're you're rightly saying, Joe, well, what do you mean by racist, you know, in the context of discussion or the criticism that's being made? And I think, hopefully, sometimes that at least stops some people in their tracks. And some of them go, well, well, yeah. It may not have been the right word to use. Okay? But it it's done. Anyway, so we could, no. It's I just think I get a little so I I react when I I just get accused of being awoke and as being dismissive of my own thoughts and and and beliefs, and then almost feel like I have to defend them in some way. So but anyway. Yeah. Tim from from, from from a man recently offered a job behind a pulpit. How do you look at woke? Hang on. I gotta do something subversive first. Okay. What happened? Did it go in? Yeah. It did. So, oops. That wasn't it. Then mine hasn't come up yet. Hasn't come up yet. Yeah. For me, look, I I mean, I I look. I agree with Graham. If we're gonna throw terms around that that actually mean different things to different people, I think we need to, we need to identify what what I think it's a great question to say, what do you I mean, I appreciate that you said that, or I don't appreciate that you said that. But I mean, I I I acknowledge that you said that. What do you actually mean when you say, what does work mean to you so that I can understand? And I just think that that's a that's a superb response. I'm annoyed I'm annoyed that this thing is not coming up the way I was hoping it to come. Oh, that's not that one. Sorry. Never mind. Yeah. Because I was I was trying to stop Well, Graham, at least you're not the white boomer on the phone. Stand up. Here it is. Yeah. Sorry about that. There It's a very white comment. Sorry. Sorry. The thing is, I'm I'm stepping into an industry that is not, not, or a community or a vocation that is not, I guess, being ostracized or attacked or or demeaned or whatever is not foreign to people in this vocation, because it's a belief system. And and I and I and you could argue that there's a there's there's a justification that some people are angry if that belief system is being shoved down their throat, and I can I appreciate that? But if that belief system is being presented or at least lived, then to be labeled or attacked by it is I mean, it it it's part of the it's part of the gig, I suppose, but it's also it's reinforcing to those in that vocation that the world is in trouble, and there is, a, I mean, I guess I go back to the individualism versus community aspect of it because I think what most people miss or lose or have lost is a sense of real community, and I think, I think the religious institutions did not not as a broad sweep, but some of them, offer that community, but so does a football club. And so does so does, any sort of collective that goes out to the beaches to pick up rubbish offers community. And I think a lot of the the the mudslinging that we see are people that spend all their time sitting behind their computer Mhmm. And they're not investing in community. They might be investing in an online community, but that's a bit of an echo chamber. It's not really a community that permits dissenting voices. Well, opposing voices, not so much dissenting, but opposing voices that that creates this sort of, impetus to think about values, which is what Graham was talking about before. What are what are our values and can we articulate our values? And, sure, some some organizations like, a church, for example, might might say, well, these are the values and you must follow these values, but, actually, all they're saying is, I mean, they're saying, in a sense, they have a right to say, these are our values, and we welcome you to come to share these values. But to sort of waltz in and say you must change your values is in the face of what I think everybody is sort of campaigning for in a sense. It's like from from a from a a right a rights perspective. Then I go back to the rights issue, and those rights of the individual in a sense are are there because of what the community has given them. I know it seems like convoluted sort of answer. I'm sort of thinking around in circles, but but I'm trying to be as sensitive as I can, while at the same time, I haven't articulated why I'm going into that in the into that direction, but I don't think I need to, other than I think the world needs hope. And I think I I don't think the world needs false hope. I think the world needs hope. But I also think the world needs community, and I think the world needs people who are willing to sit down with them and give them that sort of sense of pastoral care and to listen to them, to be heard whether that's in an old folks home, and they they do exist here where people abandon their kids, and not their kids, their parents. But they but I I think people need connection. And I think sometimes that lack of connection causes people to lash out, and and they will type anything and and online and and get into all these sorts of mudslinging, elements because they're lacking connection, and it's the confrontation that they they get that is giving them the sense of connection, in a sense. And so they're sitting there fighting, but they feel connected. You know, I was counseling a a a young teenager today, and it's very apparent to me that one of the triggers to his behavior is loneliness. Mhmm. And and parents who who are trying to control him rather than trying to journey with him as he goes through puberty and and hormonal, you know, the huge flood of hormones as he's going through this time in his life, and and sort of, you know, I I think that's what we're missing. So I don't know. Did that answer your question? I just went off a little rant. But Yeah. But I guess that's where that's where I kind of I'm at. I think there's a a problem below the language, and I think the language is I think the problem below it is quite is quite clear, actually, and simple, to identify. It's just difficult to solve because we're talking about community ecology, and that's been, shifting and changing partly through technology, but partly through, the the way that the world I guess that technology in the way that the world accesses each other has changed. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's let's let's talk a bit more about the the the the idea of the woke mind virus itself. I mean, we talk about the things at the periphery a bit. Right? So is there a virus? Do you think it behaves like a virus? Should there be a vaccine? Should there be, you know, some other approach that would that would make it sit more comfortably? Should we relabel it like they did the, the coronavirus? Well, I guess, you know, when you ask the question, should there be a vaccine, it almost implies that it is currently a disease that needs to be fixed. You know, whereas to me, it's just someone that has, you know, has an old old an alternative point of view, or, you ask the question, Tim, as you know, why you've take gone on this particular path. Well, my observation would be because that particular path is totally in alignment with your risk values. Yep. Yeah. I mean, so so, I mean, I I was I was thinking about context. Right? So you think about where like, for instance, here here's that. Here's the the kind of thinking that makes me cancelable. Right? I I I think of religion, and I think about the arrival, of a, of a of a of an insurgent by the name of Jesus, enters a society where there's a certain way of doing things, certain way of dealing with justice, certain way of looking at who is supposed to be, you know, who is respected in this society, who is not, who has done things that they should not be forgiven for. And this, this insurgent comes in with his ideas of how it should be. And it kind of reflects some of the thoughts that people have already had. They they, yeah, they think this is a pretty good idea. This is actually good behavior. But at the same time, he's also kind of saying to to to those around that go like, you know, this this is what what what you're doing, isn't quite right. You know? For those of you who haven't, you know, yet let let he who has not done this throw the first stone. Right? I mean, so there there's always f, there's a lot of affronting behavior that comes with this, and yet there is there is value in it. And you can oh, what have you got there? I can't see it. There is all that coming into it. And, like, for me, I do feel that there is great value to what Voke invokes. Right? I mean, there's definitely a lot of that. Right? Mhmm. But we also have to go, like, well, what what what kind of ex ex what kind of extremism comes along with that? Right? I mean, do you do you consider do you consider the damage of property an okay result of this? Do we consider things like, for instance, one of the things that that I was, that I found out about on the way to this today was, you know, the the Black Lives Matter movement, for instance. I agree with the idea of it, but, you know, it's it's it's now been found. The people behind them behind it actually had a pretty good financial incentive to to to to to go on that path. You know? The people who were behind Black Lives Matter, the movement, made money. You know? They they they they they it was a for for them. It turned out to be a for profit situation. Now it's not that I believe that you can't be financially successful or you can't you can't thrive from something you believe in, but there's now additional information to say that some of these, some of these, players, who are the the the the the big levers in this in in in this movement are actually in a business. They they they will show up for a fee for this or for that. You know, that but those kinds of things are are I think, what we need to also kind of be be be aware of as well. There's there's some somebody's doing it because they want to do there's another reason why it's it's useful for them. So we talk about and again, I don't wanna be controversial too controversial about this. But, you know, the idea of the useful idiot. Right? You can you can have someone work completely in their own self interest within their values, and they can be doing something completely wrong, you know, if you design something around them. I was just I was just talking to somebody the other day about what's happening right now with the scam phone calls we get in Singapore, and we're getting a lot of scam phone calls from local sounding voices talking about being from a local bank. Right? And I took a step outside and went, what if these people don't know they're in a scam? What if these people are going to a job they think that is really for DBS? And they run through this process, which is the real job that they have, and they're doing this again thinking they're helping someone. They're actually doing the bidding of somebody else who's designed something around that. Oh, listen, they may become a conspiracist. But, you know, but that's completely possible as well. And and the thing is that's the that's the hybrid world as in, like, you know, we can we can look at politicians and say, well, politicians are always out for themselves, and they do good. That's a possibility as well. It's interesting you say that. I was just thinking before about, the you of of the context, you made a comment earlier, Joe, about how you can be in 2 camps. Like, sometimes people, about being you're accused of being, say, being woke, which I'm very comfortable with. But then they go, but how can you be woke and also believe in a free market? I go, well, why not? You know, so it's almost as though we have as though free market is contrary to being to being woke. So you can't be woke and believe in capitalism at the same time. And so that's when I asked this question. So what yeah. So what do you mean by woke? And then I'm giving you some well, then you can get into the whole thing around conscious capitalism, and it goes off on all these different tangents as though we have to live in this binary world. So you're either Democrat or you're Republican. And here, you're either Liberal or you're Labor. You can't be an amalgam of the 2, you know. And so, whereas to me, I go, well, hang on. These are my values. And so for instance, going back down your path, Tim, where, you know, I was brought up as in the Anglican church. I was an altar boy. And then another point, I was I joined the Mormon church for a while. It was all down this journey. And now where I would say that I'm not particularly religious, but I believe to be very spiritual. So do I believe in a God or higher authority? Absolutely. Do I have an issue with some of the tenants of religion? Yes. I do. But so it comes back to coming to my own conclusions based upon my own experiences, but not so locked into them that I won't ever change based upon new informations being shared in a a different way. And it comes back to what you're saying before, Joe, about this insurgent called Jesus. I mean, if ever ever if any anybody ever, fulfilled the criteria of being called woke, off would it would it not be Jesus? And and he woke again? Yes. He did. Oh, boy. Alright. Have we Cancellation, it's coming. I think we probably have. Yes. Well, maybe we should move to the the sort of our wrap up routine, which is what's been keeping you distracted? Well, from my perspective, I've just been super busy. I've been Kalgoorlie, which is in the middle of all the gold fields in the this this week, and spent way too many hours in the car, like, about 17 driving. It's big distances in Western Australia. Huge drive. Yeah. So it was 8 and a half hours there, which is 800 kilometers, and then I got back a little under 8 hours. I'm I'm going back in 2 weeks, but I'm flying, which is a little bit little bit quicker. But I had some stuff to take with me. But, You forgot a folder. You have to go back and get it. Yeah. No. No. We've got another 2 workshops in 2 weeks. But, then I had to get home and then prepare for a short speaking gig last night here with the local local Chamber of Commerce, which was great and it was enjoyable and stuff. But, it's it's always interesting being a speaker because particularly when they have a q and a, which, of course, is very much on the fly that you can't prepared be prepared for. And, so 2 questions came out of this. 1 guy said, so tell me, what's the worst customer because I work in the in the service excellence space. So in the last week, what's your worst, experience of service, and what's the best? And, of course, you're trying to rack your memory of where you've been and memory of where you've been and everything else and stuff. So but I think it comes I, I guess I haven't had time to be be distracted in the last week because it's been, it's been been nice and busy. But, but just coming back full circle on what we're talking about before, it just highlights about when these when we're confronted with some of these situations and questions. I think it's, you know, the old, know thy truth, it'll you know, the truth will set you free, but it comes back full circle is right now, I guess, part of the whole thing today is, what is truth? You know? What what are we basing our beliefs on? That miss is it misinformation or disinformation? And what's the what are the agendas behind? And when you say about, you know, Joe, where you've got, say, Black Lives Matter and there were people making money out of it, well, supposedly, the industrial complex makes money out of defending freedom, and it's okay made to make money there, or the person that's selling, you know, shit food at the local fast food outlet, they're doing a job, but at the same time, they're causing health sorry, causing health problems within, you know, the people that they're selling the food to. But they don't know any better because right now, they need a job to earn some dollars to feed their kids and stuff. And so we go round and round and round and round. But I think it comes back to the clarity of values. And I use the example if and if I got a job to, to do I was gonna put some power on because I'm about to run out here. If I got a job asked to do some, you know, some sales training at a cigarette company, the short answer is no. I wouldn't because the product of that company is totally contrary to my own personal value. So it's very easy to say no no matter the size of the price tag that they might might dangle in front of you. And so that's why coming back to one's own beliefs, the the the clearer one's values are, the easier it is to believe in one's, how one will act. You can make decisions. Absolutely. And I think the great thing that, that that religion provides, irrespective of which one it is, there's there's a context and there's a set of rules that people almost sign up to. And in the signing up, it gives them clarity as to the decisions that they're making and who they wanna hang out with, that sense of belonging and so forth. And I agree with you entirely, Tim, but, you know, as as I think it was Seth Godin said, you know, we've never been we've in a world, we've never been more connected. But at the same time, the cry for genuine human connection has never been louder. Yep. Mhmm. Yep. And and I guess one one corollary there is you can sign up for the values, but if you're fighting with somebody in the car park after the church service, you you've gotta live them too. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in my workshops, I talk about a value not lived is not a value. It's just an aspiration. Yeah. Right. It's an HR message on the wall that nobody everybody ignores. Absolutely. I I think we all should give ourselves a list just about that, just to give ourselves a little bit of grace to use a term, to to to to to to accept that, you know what? We're many times, we're not the men that we men or women. We're we're we're not the men that we wish the world would know, but we're working on it. Yeah. Yeah? And everybody's in the same boat, you know. Yeah. Well, when it comes to what's distracting me right now, I I've been spending a lot more time well, first of all, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm just on the at the tip of the iceberg. Did you know that the series Frasier was relaunched? Oh. No. I didn't. So they're in the 2nd season. They're in the 2nd season. Frasier, obviously, is a lot older. Some people have died, but some people have grown up. New stories. Original Kelsey Grammer? It's the original Kelsey Grammer, and it's it's him it's it's him further down the road. It's it's it's I think it's about 20 years on in terms of storyline. That's kinda fun. I'm just getting into it. By the time that I'm spending most with now, actually, is with a series that everyone has had too much of. And I think people just lost sight because they were just so good for so long. Modern Family. I've never watched it. Are they still going? No. No. No. They they they came they came to a they came to a graceful end. But, you know, towards the end, people were just saying, like, oh, it's just getting boring and what have you and all that. But it's just such a it it's it's because I think we are in a world where our attention span and a need for something new is is is is is much more than before. You know? So when Frasier first came out, it did 12 seasons before it came to a nice a nice round, a nice ending. And then, of course, now we have a new reboot. I don't think that that the world today has that capacity with the exception possibly of, The Real Housewives of of and The Bachelor, of going for 12 seasons of a story. We just had to go like, nope. This is it. We're done with that, you know, with the exception of things like, like, your soap operas and whatever, where it's an infinite loop of, I was dreaming. I I wasn't, But I I'm do do you think the phrase a reboot is sort of, indicative of a desire I mean, it's probably marketing, obviously, but a desire to go back to a time to connect to a time 10, 20 years ago where things weren't as nuts. I mean, are they speaking to that, do you think? Quite possible. Is there a nostalgia coming in? I I think there's definitely there's definitely a lot of nostalgia coming into the way products have come out now because, you know, suddenly people who okay. The the the way this works for me the way I look at the way the world works is, for a lot of the last 20 years, people who were too young to understand people 20 years older than themselves were in jobs and and expressing themselves. So when you talk about marketing, all of it was about the 35 to 40 35 to 50. That was the big market range and all that. Right? What's happened is these people have actually kinda matured in their in their careers and they moved down moved down the road a bit more. And suddenly now they're beginning to recognize some of these things about themselves. And what's kinda good about the world now, I guess, is that people, that they're less marginalized than before because we've had the, thanks to wokeness, I guess, we're less likely to put aside or cast the sides of the older person. So we listen to all the executives. They're more relevant. And what we're seeing right now, and it's happening even in health care. Right? So there's more relevance to the next phase of life, the slightly older gentleman, the slightly older lady, that more and more is being provided for them as well. And to access that market, sometimes you'll use nostalgia, sometimes you come up with something that's brand new. Right? Yep. Yep. So yeah. I mean, I'd say I'd say I'd say that, for Frasier, that was probably the play. That's why that pitch made it across the line. Yep. And it's interesting as well if you watch it. They've got some new characters which are so there there is there is the heart of Frasier, which is where, you know, it's about Frasier Crane, the same character now leading his older life. But you also see the new characters now where the sons of the characters that were in the original show have now grown up to become young adults with their own problems and their interaction now with an older with an older guy. I see. So is he still the same radio jock psychiatrist? I think be doing this. Move on. He's moved on. He's actually he's actually, circling circling the drain of academia. He's, Oh, okay. The drain. Well, for me, it's just been the time, and it's, I got 3 more to go. I got a test on Monday about Hinduism and Islam and Buddhism and Judaism and Chinese religions as well. So it's a whole whole bunch of stuff, which is quite quite daunting. I just need to read that before Monday. Yeah. Revise it all. But, that's good. What you need to do is find the right YouTube video and play it at 2 times speed while you're napping. I've got an app I've got an app that'll read me the book at 2 times speed while napping. I found the napping part doesn't help. I I probably need to get in the car and drive to Kalgoorlie. Well, I got through 2 audio I got through 2 audible books, one there and one back. So I just paid out these yeah. So so that's why I enjoy my driving because I don't waste the time. It's, Yep. It's so I got through, Will Guteri's new book, Unreasonable Hospitality and, Kim Scott's, Radical Respect on the Way Back. So both have good 8 or 9 hour books. So Hey, Graham. It's been really nice to chat with you again. It's nice to have you back Likewise, gentlemen. Thank you for sharing with us. You're welcome. Joe? And, we wanna thank you as well, the audience, for being with us. And, if you have feedback, comments, whatever it is, brickbats, you know, kudos, whatever whatever whatever the term for these things are, Please let us know through the various, media that you're consuming us by. And if you like what we do, tell a friend. Hopefully, we can make the world, I'm gonna say a little more woke. I'm okay with being woke. Alright. Thanks for joining us, everyone. We'll see you again next time. Thanks, Graham. Thanks, Joe, and thanks, Andrea. I hope she's doing well. I don't know what she's doing, but she's gone off to do it. See you again next time. Till the next one. Cheers. Bye.