How can we be more courageous?

I loved this conversation with Anupama Singal, Marianna Pascal and Phillipa Edwards, as we dug into a wide ranging conversation on courage – what it is, how to build your courage muscles, as well as considerations around how it can change over time. We talked through a moment where one of us needs to build more courage to face a new stage in life, as well as ideas from the lessons we’ve all learned in the journey of life. 

One overarching conclusion from this podcast is, courage is not a simple thing, and small courageous actions can be as important to some people, as big courageous actions are for another. The important thing is doing the work within, to build your courage muscles, so you can live the life you dream of. Our courage lies within #UncommonCourage 

You can find Anu’s book SYZYGYmoments here https://syzygymoments.com/ 

Anna Rainn here https://annarainn.com/ 

Marianna’s website here https://www.mariannapascal.com/

Phillipa’s company, Skunkwork productions here https://skunkworksproductions.com.au/ 

My book Uncommon Courage here https://www.amazon.com/Uncommon-Courage-invitation-Andrea-Edwards/dp/1737294400/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=uncommon+courage&qid=1635841820&sr=8-1 

And my two Websites https://uncommon-courage.com/ and https://andreatedwards.com/ 

Leave a review or a star rating if you’re enjoying this podcast. It really helps #GivingEconomy 

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Alright, so I am super stoked. I have three amazing women with me today and we are going to talk about courage. But first, let's do a quick introduction. And we're going to start with Mariana. Hi there, Andrea. Thanks for having me. My name is Mariana Pascal. I'm Canadian. And I've been living in Malaysia for 25 Very long years. I'm a corporate communications expert. You know, whatever that word means. I've been doing it for 25 years, I've been in the communication industry, starting out as an actor for 40 years. And I'm a TEDx speaker, and currently crafting a model on communication, to help people that aren't communication inclined to be able to have great conversations. Oh, that's such an important topic. I was I was talking to some kids today. And I said, the number one skill, we all have to develop his communication, etc. Yeah, in every way for every aspect of our lives, not just digital. Alright, and then we have a new Hi, Hi, Andrea. And so happy to be here today. I'm a fashion and technology person. So I'm really passionate about body positivity for women. And it really, you know, pains me to see that as we grow older, because of our lives, we kind of start hiding parts of ourselves. And it's not only that we are hiding, like you know our bodies and lose oversized clothing. But we also start to stop doing some of the things that we used to be passionate about and love to do. So that is something that I pursue with a lot of passion, helping women, you know, kind of fall in love with themselves again, with their bodies again. And on the flip side, I'm by training, and by my profession, I'm also a technologist. So I have two tech companies that I've co founded. And we work in the fashion and lifestyle space. So yeah, the love to do different things. Love speaking writing, inspiring people about you know, loving themselves more and living their best life. So really happy to be here. I'm so happy to have you here. You know, I love you and I adore you and everything that you do so it's awesome. And finally my lovely sister Philip or Edwards is here with us again. And by the way, Philip are one of my regular listeners. So lady called Fiona Hello, Fiona as you're baking your cookies. She's got a small business where she makes amazing cookies. She her favorite podcast is the one we did together. So yeah, that's nice. She liked the way we just naturally ripped off each other. So I'm presuming we're gonna all do today. All right, an introduction to Philip Edwards. Okay, so my name is Philip Edwards, and I'm the lesser known of the Edward sisters. I have a music degree, which on trumpet, which means I'm less useful than a barista. I think I've said it a number of times. I teach it in Melbourne music, and I conduct bands. And I have a production company called skunkworks productions. And we create professional performances and things and that that feeds into our community organization that helps kids go through music and develop themselves and create community. And we're trying to just get people back involved in community because that's where everything is. And that's where the love is and and it's it's been missing for a while. So that's what we do. Philip or will always underplay what she does. But yeah, it's a bit hard to explain. And my, my lovely husband and my, and our other business partner, Colin, yeah, we've all come from the same kind of space. So we're a little group that just sorted out as much as we can. Yeah. But raising generations of people who are passionate about music as well, which is what audiences we're creating audiences and and critical thinkers and people that think outside the square and people that generally the indoctrination and all that sort of stuff, they can think through that sort of thing and think bigger than who they you know, their own, you know, little cosmos. Alright, well, I'm excited to have this conversation today. I don't know who wants to start. But I thought the one of the best things we need to start with is trying to define courage because courage is one of those words that's getting used a lot today, a lot of people are speaking up about it, which is great, because we do absolutely need incredible courage to overcome the problems the world is facing. But when you think of the word courage, how would you define it? Who wants to go first? I think a lot of people think courage is the absence of fear. But it is not the absence of fear it is in spite of the fear you move forward. Because everything's put in boxes these days carried you're seen as being this or being that or being a shrill feminist or something or other but for someone a meek person, that courage might just be making eye contact with somebody. Courage might be writing a letter to somebody courage might be speaking up courage might just be putting your hand up in class, and I think everyone needs to know that courage. It's like love is a chemical reaction. And fear is a chemical reaction. And if you get to see things as chemicals in your body and reactions and end Science of that sort of stuff and see it for what it is, you can start realizing, well, this is part of my body. And if I can own this feeling of love over here, I can own this feeling of fear over here. And then you can move forward into courage, which is taking those small steps. And I think courage is choice as well. And courage is a muscle, you can't just be courageous, you don't suddenly become courageous. And another problem I see, especially so many parents, and so many people that look after kids say, oh, that's dangerous, or you should not going to be very good at that, or are you sure, don't climb up there don't do this. Everyone's kind of developed this fear of of everything, and fear of failure, fear of hurting themselves, and then they denied the chance to develop and the muscle of courage. And so it's not an absence of fear, it's, despite the fear you will move forward, or that are nice, very nice. I think courage, when I think of courage, it's always that thing, which I'm missing, or with someone is missing, which is exactly what they need to, you know, move forward on something, right. And that is why they say that, okay, I lacked the courage or not feeling that I have the courage to do something, because we just may be like stuck in a box, like if you think of yourself standing somewhere, and there's a little like a square drawn around you. And there are no, there are no balls, you're not inside a cabinet, you're not inside a room, which is locked, it's just that there is a imaginary box that we have drawn around ourselves, and we are feeling that if we step out of it, something bad is going to happen, or somebody is going to say something to me, or I will not be able to prove to myself that I can do it, right. And what I've also found is that it is something that if we think of ourselves in the same situation, versus someone else, in the same situation, we can always find courage to help them, you know, get out of that situation. But when it comes to us, we feel like, oh, we can't do this, or I can't do this. Right. So to me, if I were to define courage is that it is exactly the thing that you need, in the moment that you don't have. I mean, it's like a little bit of an abstract thing. But if you can just tell yourself that Yeah. What worse can happen? Write it down? Follow up a person and tell them what is your fear? And you will find that you have moved a little bit outside that box. And the more and more that you do it, like Philip has said, it's a muscle that you need to develop? And yeah, I think it's really come to stories. I guess, I don't want to hoard their time. But yeah, it's just that, like, you need something and you don't have it. Oh, okay. All right. Mariana. Yeah, I think a combination of what both of you have said, I don't I don't like to say that. It's something we don't have. Because hopefully, you know, that's what we're aiming for it to have that people do have it. But you know, I like what Phillips said about it being a chemical reaction. So I guess it's a very highly personal venturing into that place where your body is reacting, it's like putting your hand on a stove that's too hot, or anything where your physical body is saying don't stop Danger, danger, you know, the the effects that we feel in our body are highly personal, you know, some feel it in their stomach, some feel it in their chest, we all have these different barriers, as Andrew said, it's being able to walk into that, with all the discomfort that comes with it. Just being able to, you know, and even just talking about it right now, it seems like How stupid are we if we don't have? Yeah. You know, How stupid do we have to be? You're right. We see in other people. I was just talking to somebody the other day about something that I want to do. And he was like, Yeah, well, you could do that. You could do that. No problem. And I'm thinking, Okay, how are you? You have never gotten off out of your cushy little office chair for 25 years, you haven't moved, you haven't left your comfort zone. It's so easy to say, you can do that. So what prevents us why we are so prevented by our own fears to be courageous, really is astounding, isn't it? We go into relationships that are no freaking good for us do all kinds of things that our body says stop we do it anyway. Why don't we walk into courage? Andrea, what do you think? What's your definition of courage? Well, I actually thought that was a really interesting perspective, because there's a difference between courage and stupidity, right? So you don't put your hand on the fire because you learn that when you're between zero and three, well, you should learn it if you're allowed to learn it. Well, that's true if you're given the space to actually learn that I can assure you that my children but themselves but yeah, courage. Pidgey that they're actually not that different because they're probably the similar theory feelings underneath. But why do you choose a bad partner? So, obviously, before I did this, I wanted to, obviously I've written a book on courage, yes. But I wanted to go out there and look at the definitions and the meanings. And there's what you guys have said that basically everywhere, and fear and fear is at the center. It exists, but you do it regardless. But I always like Mayor Angelou, his comment that it's the highest of all the virtues, because without courage, you can't do anything. Right. You can't you can't achieve any of the other virtues without being courageous. So for me, courage has always been about decisions. decisions you make. And I've always been fairly courageous in my decision making I don't know why. I honestly I don't know why but I think it's that muscle thing. So if you want to to give yourself a courage muscle status, I would suggest on probably about a missile Olympia standard. Where are you guys sitting? Buddy? Mr. Olympia the body building just in case you missed that? Where do you think your courage muscle standing currently is? Is it high? Is it low? I feel mine is low. Really? Yeah, yeah. I feel I went through a few years have some very, you know, those big life events that just happen to you, you know, the ones you don't have control over? They happen to you. So I went through like a bunch of them one after the other. And it really did something to me, it made me become very, like an animal constantly feeling like what's the next thing that can happen? I got a hold on tight to where you're in fight or flight all the time. Say you're in a stress, it puts you into a stress, fight or flight. And you've stayed there. Yeah, exactly. When your body's in fight or flight. There. It All it's doing is surviving. There is nothing else if survivors, so you got to take the steps out of that. So help comes in there. Yeah, yeah, but I think in Marianas case, I mean, she doesn't look like she's living on courageous life. But I do understand what you mean, sometimes you get your feet kicked out from under you, right? But what about you Filipina? New? Where would you say your courage muscle levels are? Okay, so for me, I think it varies like sometimes even from day to day. And when you asked me, Andrea to be on this call, and this podcast, and I was like I said to her, that's exactly what I have been needing last few weeks and months. And so I'm so glad that you asked me because it is a sign for me that I must move forward. Right? Whatever is it that I have been fearing or you know, feeling bad about or feeling a little bit less courageous to face then I need to do it. And so I'm really glad that this conversation is happening. And I do feel that like Mariana said that when events come, and we've had, I think all of us have had a lot of those in our lives. And when they come you do feel like immobilized right, like, oh, I you know exactly what has to be done. And if it was your best friend, or one of somebody that you loved and cared, you would give them an essay on how to get it done and how to move forward and whatever. So what I found is that when I need courage, I need to write, I write, what is it that I'm fearing? What is the worst that can happen? What can what would I tell my best friend to do? And then I try to find a little bit of courage to do that. So right now, yes, I'm a little bit low. But like I said, it varies on day to day. So today, I'm feeling very courageous. And I'm on this podcast, but yesterday I wasn't. Yeah, it is a strange time. And in some ways it's it's harder to be courageous now. Philip are where are your courage muscles. So I because I was thinking while the ladies were speaking, I have very high courage muscles. I think close to miss olympia, but I have very low self esteem muscles. Because most of my courage muscles come from caring for other people. So if I'm conducting a band like a national championships, a grade like adults or a kids band, I know when I walk out those kids and those people looking to me for their courage, so there is no choice I have to show courage and so I've done it enough times now that I can walk out and stand tall and and share the courage but my EDS the self esteem thing, but even when my self esteem is really bad, and my muscle memory for carried on muscle memory, but for carriage still come is pretty good. And it's mostly because it's the service it's from doing service for other people that has helped me develop my courage and also I'm going to sweat i You get to an age and ladies you run out of facts to give I actually do not just don't care what people think of me anymore, that burden of other people's my perception of that what they thought of me and Losing, that was the best thing. I don't care anymore. I care if I let myself down. And if I've done my best, and it hasn't worked, and but I've still tried, as long as I'm haven't let it actually let someone down or done the wrong thing by somebody else. It's okay. So all right, so let's just sort of bring it in. So you're talking about self worth, or self value, right. And I think that's a huge issue for a lot of people. And it's that internal voice that sort of is constantly bringing them down. And I always say to them, if you've got this narrative in your head, that's telling you, you useless, ugly fat, you're not going anywhere. What how do you possibly think something like this is possible for you any of that stuff, just, you just got to shut it down. If your voice in your head is telling you that you can't achieve something, or is negative, then you just have to switch it off? Yeah, but sometimes you've got a chemical imbalance in your brain, and your serotonin levels are down and your cortisol levels are up and the self care hasn't worked in, things have been knocked out flux at Mariana was saying not knocked out from under your feet, and you go into a stress response, it's easier said than done with that self talk, you've got to do what you need to do, you've got to actually actively do something about that. Yeah. And that might mean getting on medication, you know, sleeping properly, eating properly exercising. So address the voice in your head, if it's telling you that you're useless or anything negative, get it addressed, whether you do it yourself, which is the hardest thing in the world, it always comes back. And it comes back fairly slowly. So I always sort of visualize it is it's a little box locked in the back of my mind now. But it constantly tries to escape. And sometimes it takes me a bit of time to go well, wait a minute, that's the voice unlocked. Put it back in its box. But it's taken a lot of years to get there. I gave up on the external validation a long, long, long time ago. So I was probably still in my teens. When I said, Why do I care what people who I don't even know think about me. But the self worth thing as well. I mean, I think that's a that's a really big issue. I don't think just for women, but I think women suffer more and also overcoming pain in your life. So, Mariana, you didn't go into any details. But I've talked to a lot of people who've been dumped abandoned. They basically married a con artists, and they're in shame. And it's the shame of the decisions that they made that are holding them back. And they carry that. So, so deeply this shame, and it's the hardest thing to let go. But, you know, making a bad decision about somebody who then became destructive in your life. I think, you know, the best thing you can ever do is let go of that, because it's not serving you. I don't know what do you guys think? Mariana? I think like Phil, it like Phillips said, there's a reason why we struggle so much like we know. So anybody saying, Well, you've just got to do this or let go of this or break through that? Or do we know we're not stupid? There's nobody that doesn't know what to do. But I think I would agree with Philipa. That, I don't know. I mean, if I look back, and I listened to other people's stories, about those times that people do suddenly make a decision, as you said, and they do something, they do the courageous thing, they drop something, they let go of something, it seems almost to me, like there's all this work going on. But we don't see the effect of that we may not feel were letting go. We may not, you know, but under the surface, it's the work is happening, you know, and then one day, one day, we're just ready, and we decide, or we drop, or we change, we sort of have to, I guess just trust that even when we're not seeing the result of the work that we're doing that it's happening, and it gets revealed in these moments of decision that seem almost eerily spontaneous. And yet they're not. It's probably years and years of work. That got us to the point where that, you know, and what do we hear about when we hear people's stories we hear about, I just made the decision. I just in that moment, I just knew one day I just decided I didn't want that anymore, but I don't think that's really what goes on inside us. There's a whole lot of sometimes years of work that nobody sees. So I guess the key is trust ourselves that we're we're doing it it's not an overnight sensation takes 10 years. Exactly. Yes. And you're then reminds me of something like little story. So when I was in college, I just come out of school and I was going to this college and all my life I had studied in a girls school, right and now suddenly they were These guys around. And one day I used to drive this moped to college and my home was quite far away. And then some guy just came and stood in front of my moped front tire, and he wouldn't move. And he said, Tell me your name. And I was so angry, like, because like, you know, I think all my life I thought, like, you know, you live a little bit in fear, like, as you're growing up as teenage girls, that somebody is gonna rape you or somebody is gonna, like, you know, come and say something to you or do this or do that. And I was just so angry. And I didn't know what came over me. And like Mariana said, it's was a split thing, but it's probably not a split thing that happens, right? I just slapped him. I was like, How dare he stand in front of my moped and asked me my name. And like, Who the hell does he think and this place, it was a little bit of a notorious place, like, you know, it didn't do that kind of a thing at that. I think the guy was so stunned, I just drove off. And then I saw that he's trying to follow me on his bicycle. But thankfully, I was on this motorized moped ride, and for eight kilometres, he followed me, like, you know, at full speed, and then somehow I lost him. And when I reached home, I just was like, you know, shivering a little bit, like out of the hole, you know, whatever, fear, courage, cyber, whatever you call it, like, there was a bunch of emotions. And then I locked myself in the room, and I said, What have I done? Now the whole, the whole gang of boys will be after me, like how come and the next day, I was like, I didn't want to go to college. And it just like, the feeling that I couldn't tell anybody. Clearly, I didn't want to tell my parents that this is what I did. And I just took the mopitt and went to college. And the good thing was that I had just been fearing the whole night for not because other people saw it. And then they scolded this guy. And they kind of told him that if you go near her or whatever, like you will be dead. And so it was like the community was helping me but in my own head, I was thinking that the community is going to come back charging at me for doing something like you know, unheard of, that makes me so furious. It's like one man on in the House decides he wants to find out your name. And the ramifications of that are that you might never go to college again and not realize your potential because he decided it was important for him to know your name and your safety and your comfort. You know, your feeling of safety was of no consequence to him. He was blocking my way. It was not just like, hey, hi, what? Yeah, he was like, blocking my path. Can you get in front of my tire? He's nailing my moped not allowing me to move forward. And that's what kind of it's actually an act of violence. Yeah. Yes. I mean, I also did the same, like kind of like, I don't know what, the only language that people that do that do that because they're enabled. They don't understand any other language. You can't reason with people that think that that's okay. There's no reasoning with them. Yeah, it's just it's infuriating. But yeah, it reminded it I got reminded of this because of what Mariana said that it's not that it was that split till now, I used to think, Oh, it was just that split moment or whatever. But when she said that, it is generally not a split thing. It's something in you, which has been, you know, you've been going through it, you've been thinking through it, and it's bubbling up, and then something happens. And then you know, you take a decision, or you find the courage, or you find that thing that you've taken that step. That's why I say a stress response, again, fight flight or freeze. And so it's back in the day. And I think that's the other problem with us, because we're so sedentary and my kids watch all these movie videos, and it's all it's very frightening when they come jumpscares so they get these bursts of adrenaline and cortisol and all the rest of it. So they're just primed all the time and then it that's why there's so much trouble going on. So the fight flight or freeze. So back in the day, you know, Saber toothed Tiger would come at you you'd get a burst of adrenaline you'd run away to get away from it and you'd wear off the adrenaline and it all be good but now we're not running off the adrenaline and the freeze thing is a big worry for girls and that's what I say you need to practice in a safe space be in a situation where someone comes up to you and can you know slap him or do a shout or practice reacting and then you think to yourself, were practicing what do you boys practicing? How about you boys practice not standing in front of mopeds you know it's not such a big thing I think we should sit nobody's a big it is a big thing is it's a very big thing. Yeah, but till now I just didn't think of it like that like Mariana put it and then it came to my mind but I think what is as we grow older, we need courage for like smaller things like you know, maybe think that okay, there's something We have to do in the world. Right? We know we can do it. Right. But there is like Andrea said the self doubt it you think that can you actually do this? Can you actually achieve it? Can you actually go out and not have people laugh at you that why you are doing this? So I think the the theme that we need to carry through all of our stories is easy addressing the self talk, and there's the self value and all that sort of stuff. Because it's to me, it's the core, when I meet people who are terrified of taking the step that, you know, I say, what can you say yes to? And if you said yes, everything could change. Everyone's got those things in them. But not everyone is willing to take the step. Right. So I just had a recent example of courage. I started live streaming and a podcast. And I've been thinking about it for a couple of years. Now. The main reason I didn't start was because I couldn't come up with the name. So the whole uncommon courage name sort of came together as the book was coming together, but it needed the right name, and it needed to be brought up. But that was the reason. But I came up with that this time last year, right. So why didn't Why did it only happen a couple of months ago, and, and it was just the beginning, just that starting and Afghanistan situation was what really spurred me out. And that's when I said, right, I'm ready to go. Like, I paid for the apps, I, you know, for months before, but it was just that very, very, very first one. So, anyway, the moment came, and I stepped forward. And you know, just you guys could understand, you know, this is a long journey. The other thing I also know is that when I start something like this, I have to keep going. So it's never just giving it a go. It's a long term commitment. Otherwise, I wouldn't be doing it right. So there's, there's the time commitment, the impact it has on family, but there was a big part of it was you putting yourself out there again, in a bigger way, you know, and every time you put yourself out there in a bigger way, you open the door to criticism, really cool, jealousy, bullshit, right? And the reality is, like, velopro don't really care. You know, I know, I know what I'm here to do. I'm here as a voice for humanity and all life on Earth. That's my mission now. And I will do whatever I can to be moving towards that. But I just wanted to share it as a story of courage because it did still take courage to do that first one. Injury about that. You said that you you had been thinking about it for a long time. So did you wake up one day? And you just said, That's it? I'm going to do it? I mean, did did it feel like the decision was sudden? Or was it a slow, dip your foot in gradual? It's because the mission is so big. So the name had to encompass the bigger mission, because, you know, people know me as the digital conversationalist. But that's only a part of me. And so I was trying to come up with a way of sort of capturing it all rather than sending like I'm just unfocused, because I'm not unfocused. I'm very, very focused. But the Afghanistan situation for me, as soon as it happened, I reached out to Tim Wade, and I said, it's time to start the live stream. That's it, because of what was going on, because I was actively involved in paying attention to the Afghanistan situation before America went to war over there. And, and I felt really, really strongly about it, especially from a female perspective, but also the impact it had all around the world on the mental health of the world, because the whole world is being suffering for so long. And it was, it was like a last straw, you know, because so many bad things have been happening, you know, and they continue to be happening, and people are losing hope. And I just, we can't afford to lose hope. Because if we lose hope we give into it. The backward steps, we can't let the backward steps win. So does that answer it? Um, can I ask another question back to courage is it do you think sometimes it's the courage to not be perfect, to not the perfect name to not be perfectly ready and just in spite of that, the lack of perfection taking the step forward? For me? Absolutely, because I just don't have the time to develop all the skills that I need to be perfect at everything that I'm trying to do, and I don't fit the packaging anyway. Have you know, a woman who should be on video I don't fit any of it. No, I don't. That's That's pathetic. That's a space for you to redefine what exactly right is to be that's you using your courage to step into that and to be at the forefront of changing that because the women that have been pushed forward don't have all the things that the world needs at the moment. I mean, having beautiful breasts and perfect lips is not going to solve all the issues in the world. You need critical thinkers and you need people that can spark conversation and and respectful conversations. You don't need perfect looking people. You need people it's headed in the right space, but also as a female that speaks up and speaks out. I will do everything I can to encourage women to not be silenced by the trolls and the online bullying and all the bullshit that's going on. So that's another mission for me. You know, we cannot afford to have women being silenced. We can't you believe in it so strongly that the mission itself gives you courage. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't have to come from within it can come from without. Yeah. And truth resonates to Andrea like, you see a lot of the trolls like you can just brush most of the way but when when you say something that resonates truth, generally speaking, even the most rusted on whichever way you go will go. That actually that's ringing a bell. So if you're speaking truth, often you can kind of dodging way through the bullets. Yeah, that's true. But you've got to be open to it. You know, I've had some terrible trolling experiences and they do have an impact they do like, Yeah, and you carry them with them with you for a while. And they come from men and women, not just men, by the way. Oh, yeah. Women are some of the nastiest people online. Yeah. But eventually if you can get through that, but if enough of us speak up, if enough women speak up, then there's just not enough trolls out there to to get us all so we've got to support each other and and also the men who who are a little bit more shy or a little bit more introverted, a gentle the men Bassett is, we've got to support them too, because, you know, we need them speaking up as well. So yeah, the courage to speak up I think is a big one. What about you guys, give me give me a story of courage. Before I give you a story of courage, I'll I'll take one very simple example of something like you know, how we break through courage at NRA in at my brand, you know, we had two stores. And we did one thing, which is generally not done, which is that we never put any mirrors inside the trial room. Because what happens is, once a woman goes into a trial room, even if she's looking fantastic, there's always this inner voice that Oh, my hips, show my tummy showing us something, something they will just come out, and, you know, not buy or just tell themselves that they're looking ridiculous. So we didn't put trial rooms inside, and we make them come out. So that we can give them real feedback on what to do what to wear. And it is just a simple thing. And, you know, five years, we had these two stores. So think about 10 years of women walking into those trial rooms every day, and coming out and feeling good about themselves, rather than looking at the mirror and saying I'm fat, right or my doesn't fit. And this kind of reiterated my thing in what you were saying, Andrea, that it's the voice in us that we must kind of you know, shut down or beat or listen to or fight against to just have that courage, right? Because nobody is telling us like, we will wear something come out hardly. And maybe your husband will tell you, but most of the other people will not even notice that little bulge or whatever right on your body. It's you yourself telling yourself that I am in perfect. I have this problem. I don't look good, or I'm not good enough for video. Right? It's nobody else. It's just us. So I think we if we can collectively raise this consciousness that it is that inner voice. And I think you wrote the same thing in my book, Andrea, about this voice, right? And you told me how many papers you wrote and threw in the dustbin. And it was perfect. What you wrote was perfect. Right? You didn't need to throw all those papers. So sometimes it's just that and I'm also guilty of it. But this is what I try to remember all the time that it is just me. It's not people outside. And I need to have that courage for myself to push myself out. Yeah, no, that's, that's true. We can't be looking for external validation all the time. Got to find it within ourselves. Absolutely. And you know, the funny thing with your book, so did you moments. Yeah. So tell everyone about the book, whatever. Yeah, I wanted to like, you know, create something with 100 people, just people in my life and get them philosophies about life into a beautiful coffee table book. And a lot of people I spoke about initially, they said like, Oh, that's a great idea. But who you're going to ask, I said, the people who inspire me or around me. So I asked Maria and I asked Andrea, right. And it is come out. So well. Like I think people really enjoyed the journey as well. And I it's been great for me, to put it together to just like very inspiring. In fact, courage is the first chapter in the book. Yeah. All I can say to you is it's very difficult for me to say something meaningful in few words, because I'm used to writing 1000s of words. So for me, it was actually more about how do I compress a really, really big idea down into a small package, which was a good exercise. You actually made me go through that exercise, which was great. All right. Mariana, have you got a story of courage? Yeah, I'm just thinking of it as I was talking. And I'm remembering how, when I was third in my mid 30s, I was an actor in Canada and I wasn't, I didn't want to keep doing it and had been many years that I had not enjoyed it. And I was engaged and I didn't want to marry him. And I sold everything. I gave back his ring. I sold every single thing I owned in a massive garage sale outside. My house, every little thing down to the spoons and the forks and the knives and I packed a bag about the size of, you know, a mid sized backpack like a student's big backpack. That's all I didn't have one of those backpacker and I bought a ticket to Australia a one way ticket. Wow. Emily just said stop in Malaysia and I said, Where's Malaysia? I packed up everything I owned. I left the fiancee, I had a bag, I think I had two shirts, a pair of pants, a toothbrush, you know, that was it. And I sold everything. And I got on a plane to go to Australia with not a single connection, not a single clue where I was going to go what I was going to do, and here I am 25 years later. I mean, I've built a life here. And I've got a you know, don't be lovely daughter and a business. But I'm just thinking right now I'm on the cusp of making, I need to make another decision. I'm divorced, and I don't want to stay in Johor Barra Malaysia, and I want to leave and it's now at this stage of life. It's absolutely daunting. And I'm looking back and thinking from where did that courage come from? Where can I summon it now. And the interesting thing is, it's been quite a few years. I mean, the idea I'm going to be 60 next year of just going to another place and starting again, fresh. It's not, you know, it's different at this age. And I'm really scared. I'm really scared. I've my foots been dipping in the water for years. And I don't know how to make that leap. I almost wish someone would come and just push me right into the water. Because I know I'd start swimming, but it's that getting into the water. It's just, I can't seem to get through that barrier we've all talked about. So as I was talking, I'm thinking, you know, I guess you can't go back to where you got the courage before because you're not the same. But you need a different kind of courage and maybe something to look forward to. I think once you find something to look forward to the courage will just come Yeah. Because it's something like you know, what, what can happen. So sometimes you need courage when you're fearing. Right. And sometimes you need courage when you're just stuck with something and you don't know where to go next. So if you can find that, where to go next, and what to do maybe like, you know, pick up a teaching job in a fancy University for teaching a course or something. And that will give you the Philip to just up and go like that. And you'll have lots of young people around you. One of the things I know from living away 27 years now, and I've gone back a couple of times is in need to be around expatriates. You can't go back to like if you go back to Canada, and you go back into a society that's doesn't have any expatriates in it, you'll be completely lost. Because it's a different lifestyle. It's a different mindset. It's you know, I remember we lived in this place that was full of retirees in Australia for a year and we left Australia because of it of those other reasons. But that was a big one, their focus was so different to our focus, and people were really closed off as well. They weren't interested in meeting new people and making new friends whereas when you're around a big expatriate community and people have spent a lot of time overseas don't make friends in five seconds. Because that's what we do we meet people we make friends when you're away from your home. So whatever you do the next place it just needs to have lots of people who aren't from there, because my sister just had her eyebrows raised when you said you nearly 60 Because I don't think she can quite believe it. Which is true. Mariana you're quite the horn bag Yeah, I don't know what a horn bag like a scumbag Oh, no saucy winch gorgeous and well just find yourself a toy boy and get on again the toy boy. He's embarrassing to say but I haven't had a date in six years with an actual single man. But that's only because because you are not wanting it. Yeah, it's not because the guys are not wanting it that I can tell you no, I think I mean Johor baru and I don't think there are any men actually that you know what it's like in this part of the world if it's a man our age, he wants a young Asian girl there's very few you know, it's not it's you know, there's not a whole lot anyway, all that stuff kind of makes you scared you get very closed in and yeah, but thank you for calling me a horn bag. I'll have to Google. I think the emphasis is horn bag. You can't say the are too hard horn bag. Australian accent on bag. It's like it's kind of a sexy way of saying it. If you overdo to our it's just I think anything ending in bag doesn't sound Nine out bags. Good. But going back back, going back to your one one way ticket to Australia story, you actually never got to Australia. You missed that bit of your story. Right? Yeah. Which is a core part of the story. You know, I do think your courage does change, you know, because your daughter, will she stay in Malaysia if you go somewhere else? No, she's now applying to university everywhere else, you know, so but I can't sort of wait to see where she goes and follows her. She keeps saying, Mom, you know, you have to lead your own life. And she's right. I have to make a decision myself. I mean, I thought about Portugal, England. I don't I can't see. I think you're right, Andrew, going back to Canada, I just can't, I can't I don't want to go back to where I came from. I want to go forward. But you know, like you're thinking starting again, and another non native speaking country do all the schlitt the thing and the, you know, and doing it alone, it's just really hard alone. Because you're you're kind of you know, it's hard enough you have to go through all this the taxes and the this and that, but then you don't have anyone at the end of the day really to share it with you know, yeah, I mean, I have great friends, but they all have lives, you know, and they have husbands and wives and lives. So anyway, but you know, these are, you know, what am I you know, I've got freedom that I'm not complaining, it's just we're talking about courage, really. And I'm just pointing out like, how it can be so scary how you can stand at the edge of the swimming pool, literally with your foot dipped in and you just are saying you just want somebody please come along and shove me in the water, please. Because I can't do it myself. You know, I just cannot do it myself. It's like Philip said early on. Like, it's like you get seized by I don't know if it's flight, fright or freeze, you can also spin you know, you go in, in a kind of circuit. And that is the thing. That's what's so difficult to, you know, to get that jolt of courage that you need once you get pushed forward. Once you start. I know it's easy once the ball is rolling. But why is it so hard? And what is the trick to making that that leap for me the I remember in was it 2003 I got offered a job in Singapore and arrived in Singapore by myself. And Singapore at the time was quite different. There wasn't it wasn't a younger single community. It was more married with family expat community. And so basically everyone said to me, Well, don't expect to meet a man. That was the thing. And so I, I was 33 at the time, and I sort of said, Okay, well by accepting this because I always had this sort of thinking, follow the path that you can control. Don't worry about the things that you can't control so I can control a job. Right? So I followed the job. And then four months later, of course, I met Steve and here we are today still. So for me, it's just about I think I love the unknown I Bracey unknown. I know how hard it is to move countries in particular, it's extremely difficult. There's the paperwork, the administration, not one of my strengths. But yeah, I don't know, I'd rather step into the unknown. Because to me, the plates spinning when you stain stuck, and not able to make a decision. But on the other side, I think the epiphany will come the moment will happen where you're gonna say, that's what I've got to do next. And then you'll just do it. But just wait for the epiphany to live but the question is, and this is good, this tank takes us right back to the beginning. What is that? You know, with courage? You have all this build up? What is it that just makes it the right time that gets you? Yeah, Philipa. See this, I'm rubbing my hands together video. And their shell, I'm not sure what their pearls pearls come from friction. So you're already in the space of friction, because you don't want to be there anymore. You keep adding the friction, the person will pop out. But you have to have the courage and the patience to wait for the poll to pop out. Because when the poll pops out, you're in the right space. So you're already you're already here. I love that. I do that all the time. Because like because I am appallingly my impulsive. Compulsive. I just can't I've just shocking at it. So my courage is learning to be still listen to the inner voice and have the patience to wait for the right because I've pushed things to happen and it backfires every time. And when things happen when they're ready. It goes well, and if you push something before it's ready, it doesn't go well. That's with kids that with husbands that with jobs that with everything. So if you just keep the frictions, apply for jobs, something is going to come along because you're doing this I love that. I think that's you know, that is such a nice kind of way to Mariana by saying but also thinking that way. It takes the pressure off you to come up with it, because it's it's coming and it doesn't make you feel like such a failure or snow. Oh, yeah, you can't because it will happen when it's supposed to. Yeah, and it really will. The other side of this is what you resist persists, where the attention goes, the energy flows. So if you are resisting your current reality, you will continue with your current reality. So moving into a place of acceptance about where you are in your reality, will actually open the door to what's next. And that makes sense. Yeah. And then on the flip side of that, you know, you have to have a bit of tension, or else you will keep up the friction, you can't get too comfortable where you are, you have to have Yeah, it's not about being airy fairy to marry, either you actually have to create the friction yourself. You can't just like, oh, you know, whenever Yeah, I'll just sit and wait or whatever, there's no waiting, you've got it, you've got to be rubbing your hands together. You see around my neck, I've got these two little plastic counters, you know, these little digital counters I wear around my neck every day. Now, the blue one every time I feel myself making a decision that's in the name of moving forward, I click on the blue thing. Every time I see myself making a decision that's out of fear. I click on the yellow one, and I add them up. I total them and I've got them all on my wall. Well, there's a great, there's a great, so I know, you know, you gotta go. So let's do some quick tips. So just Yeah, I just want to I just want to say something we just coming to me. Mariana, if you had a twin sister, and you, you've been in a great actor, and you still are, right. And if you had a twin sister, and you could write a movie, like what's going to happen to her from here? And now? Try doing that? Oh, very interesting idea. And oh, can you say that one more time you say like your audience journey thing, like you have this audience journey, I've been through it twice. And then just start at the end, like what you want. And then say that, okay, you have a twin sister, who's going to you're writing a movie script for and then try to write some of the things that you know, she would go through or what she would do and see what comes out. I'm not saying that it's a solution, but at least it will, it will be something that you will feel engaged and excited about. And then you might get some idea that this is what you should be doing. You might you might write a best seller. Yeah, backfill like draw just one day in a good space and describe the house you're in, describe the sunshine, what the sun shines, like, describe the people around you and find the destination that that we and then just backfill it and get into that place. So you might Oh, I'm on a beach, you know, and just work out what's the destination and then backfill it and then get there. I love it. I love it. No, that's a great idea. Philippa you've gave given me like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be rubbing my pearls, writing my script. If to you, what's the thing you got hanging around your neck call? It's a counter that if people were looking for what's it called? They're just, it's just a little, you know, they're the little digital counters, you get, you know, when you get on a bus, they use it to click 1234. It just simply adds numbers. I ordered them online for like 30 cents each and I ordered about 10 of them because they keep breaking. So but the message there is if you're a person that makes a lot of decisions in fear, get two counters, one is not in fear. One is in fear and add up how many times in your day, you sit in a place of trying to make decisions in fear, because we all know you can't do that. Yeah, yeah, it lets me just fasting aware, hyper aware, it lets me yes creates awareness every day. So if I do make a decision, I don't like I have to recognize that and actually, like call it out and just acknowledge it instead of you know, sometimes we make silly little decisions. I mean, micro decisions, like googling YouTube, when I could be Googling, you know, Spain, but Mariana, that's a lot of courage there itself, you know, and just like many others, just fine. That's one of the many places I've been thinking about, you can come visit, you put yourself out there and you are tracking your thoughts or your actions or, you know, your decisions. And I think that's, in itself a big courageous step like, you know, I would, I think I would have to find a lot of courage to just acknowledge to myself that I'm making thing decisions out of fear and not out of hope. So I think I think you're courageous just like, tap into that. So one of my tips is, self awareness is a really, really big challenge for the majority of people they don't they're not paying enough attention to what's going on inside of them. So if you really want to get your courage muscles up, you've got to start paying attention not just to the voices, but to how you feel about yourself where those thoughts come from, because they're often not you we get programmed no matter who we are. We get programmed by life by our parents by religious institutions, education, we get the country raised in you name it, we get it, and we've got it, you know, so trying to get back to the source of you and it does take a long time and a lot of people will get really, they get bored or they It's too hard. It's too confronting. They don't like going there. But every time you get to the point where you just can't keep going, just have a break, and then come back to it when you're ready. But spend the time within working out who you are, why you like your why, why you think what you think, you know why you're doing what you're doing. And if you find yourself sitting in fear a lot, you know, you can't make decisions from fear. So really, really go into that, understand it, why are you feeling that way? You know, like Philip was saying, you know, what was your parent, one of the ones that wouldn't let you take a risk that it begins then Right? But spend some time within work at work it all out. And it does take a long time. And it can be very confronting. But when you can sort out yourself from the inside, I think that's where the basis of courage can come from, because you know who you are. Now, Phil, but you want to give us because I know Marianne has got to go join and give us a tip on I think I was saying before just the courage to listen to your inner voice. Like back in the day, when I first met Jamie, there was a voice like he was going overseas and went out and just met him. And it was pretty cute. And a voice. It wasn't my voice. It was his net, and never heard the voice ever. And in my head said you better hurry up, don't know whose voice it was. And it was the courage to listen to that voice. And then, because I was saying before I'm impulsive and compulsive and try to force things. With all the company Stan quirks and the productions we've put on. It's someone walking up to me saying I want you to do this. And instead of going on going, okay, and then once you say okay, then the next domino falls and someone comes on, oh, I can do that. And then you go, okay, and then the next domino falls. And before you know it, you've got something because you had the courage to just sit and wait and let it fall into place. And that's my big learning is to just let things work. Sometimes you have to give it a bit of a nudge. But most of the time, you just let it kind of, and it 10 years for an overnight success. You work hard, and things suddenly work. But it's an what we've been saying. And he was saying before, it's you know, use of stuff that's been going on. And it looks like it's some but it's not just to have the courage to listen, and to keep taking steps forward towards what you want, right? Even small steps. Sometimes getting out of bed in the morning, making coffee and going for a walk is enough courage for that day. Or a new one more. You got one more? Yes, just a quick one. So I find for small things. It's okay, we can manage ourselves. But the strategy that I use for bigger things where I need more courage is always to tell at least five people that I'm going to do this, or I need to do this, but I'm not able to do this and just set a timeline. Like you don't say that, okay, I'm going to do this. And it should be something which is very measurable, something like okay, I'm going to lose one kilo, in 10 days, and tell five people, right, and then you just, it's like, I think it's our human nature at like we want to, you know, achieve what we say. And we have told other people that we will do something about it. That's what I found works for me. I don't know, sometimes it's difficult to even tell those five people but when I hear myself saying like, I can't. And then I just changed the T to totally and I tell myself, I can totally love it. I love it. Alright guys, I reckon we could keep going. And I don't think this is going to be the last conversation on courage. But at some point, I think we need to get Mariana back just to talk about her next steps, maybe brainstorm it with her. But he thinks thanks for doing these guys really appreciate it. There's no one answer. And I think that's the really cool thing that's come through here and starts within each of us and like a newest saying, you know, accountability buddies, if that's what you need, get them, you know, getting up out of bed and having a coffee, if that's a step of courage for you. That's brilliant. honor yourself for being courageous in whatever forms, stop resisting what is and work on yourself. You know, face yourself, understand yourself. To me, that's always been the big one that I think most people that don't spend enough time within they're too busy out. Andrew and really importantly, live a life of service. Yep. Because the more you do for other people, like authentically, things fall easier into place. Yeah, great. Yeah. You know, have courage to solve your own problems, but you can always solve things for ways right anything you feel good. Yeah, exactly. And then you know, I did it for myself. Yeah. Yeah. But but that's it still opens the door to more courage when you go putting yourself into those situations. Alright, so we'll wrap it up. And I'm sure we'll be back very soon to talk about courage or something else that's hot at the moment. Thank you ladies love talking to you. Last note, I just wanted to say something as a as a final thought. Just wanted to let you know your book is really amazing. And my daughter and I spent one evening sitting and just going through the workbook and looking at questions and discussing them. So thank you gave us lots of food for thought. And it's a terrific book that anybody can use practically real time. And it can just elicit ideas, thoughts and great conversation. So thank you, everybody. And thank you so much. Thanks so much, Andrea. Thanks, guys. Thank you