The Know Show – theme: Cybersecurity, why it’s hot and why you should care, with Andrew Milroy

Welcome to The Know Show. This week we are joined by Andrew Milroy, who is the founder of Veqtor8, a Cybersecurity advisory firm, and he’s also a technology thought leader, keynote speaker, board member and adjunct lecturer. 

Cybersecurity has always been important, but in the pandemic years, it became a hot issue – why? And why should we care?  We’ll talk about the cyber threats we are facing, how working from home changed the cyber game, all the way through to geo politics and cybersecurity. It’s going to be a fascinating conversation. 

The Know Show is a Livestream held every Friday, where Andrea T Edwards, Tim Wade and Joe Augustin review the news that’s getting everyone’s attention, as well as perhaps what requires our attention. We’ll talk about what it means to us, the world and we hope to inspire great conversations on the news that matters to all of us. 

The Know Show is based on Andrea T Edwards Weekend Reads, which get published every Saturday on andreatedwards.com, and covers the climate crisis, Covid 19, topical moments in the world, global politics, business, social issues and passion/humor/history. Join us. 

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Reach out to Andy here https://www.veqtor8.com/ 

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Transcript

Unknown: 0:01

All right, welcome to the no show. My name is Andrea Edwards. And my name is Joe Augustine. My name is Tim Wade. He's looking exceptionally handsome. Is this Halloween? Well, I thought we're gonna be talking about cybersecurity today. So I thought I better look the pot. Right? Okay, that's insulting. Nice to be on the show very disheveled Andy Warhol. It does look a little bit Andy Warhol, Andy Warhol and Austin Powers that lover child. Yeah, right. Yeah. Very handsome. All right. Today. Yeah, let's introduce our guest. Oh, he stunned into silence. Oh, hi, guys. Hello. Hi, good day here. I was supposed to be talking about putting on my pants at the time. So here's here's a terrible, terrible secret that I have. Right? I am good with people. I know who they are. But I am terrible, terrible, terrible with actual name. So for me, it got I got I got very far to remember that his name was Andrew and people call him Andy. But right now his surname escapes me. He is someone who's a bit of an expert in the area of cybersecurity, cyber threats and all that kind of stuff. And I know this because I was actually on a stage with him. Not three hours ago, so I should know this a lot better. So Andrew, would you would you would you rescue me and just do a full introduction? You've introduced me twice in the last two days, three times. But yeah, I will sink deeper into my hole now. Let me do the introduction. And I mean, I can. I mean, you've been doing so many introductions, honestly. It's been. You must be You must be getting a bit exhausted. And we drove. I know. Because we've had, we've had an event for the last couple of days. It's been, you know, it's been pretty, pretty intense. Really, Joe, hasn't it? But very good. Yeah. So so yeah. So I'm Andrew Milroy. I, you know, as you you've indicated, I've been in the analyst consulting business for many years recently, recently, I set up my own cybersecurity advisory firm called factor eight. So I provide advice to clients on the risks that they face the cyber risks or digital risks that they face and talk to them about ways in which they can address it in a very commoditized way. And I use Business English as much as possible, I do my best to avoid using technical English. When I, when I do that kind of work with folks, I also work with a bunch of other partners CIO Academy is one of them. And I work a lot with them and their clients on cybersecurity related projects. And I've known Andy for an incredibly long time, he's probably the person I've most connected with professionals that I'm still connected with. We used to work together in London in the 90s. So but the other thing is, and you know, I've had many, many, many, many arguments, on many, many, many topics over the years, but I've always had a lot of respect for your, your knowledge and, and the fact that you always dig in, you know, you never take anything at face value. So we're really happy to have you here. Thanks. It's great to be here. I especially like your work when you play Elliot carver in James Bond Tomorrow Never Dies. You know, at this point, I'm wondering if Andy has any idea what Tim Wade looks like, and what is the real Tim Wade? Look? Yeah, okay. Well, it's not quite Halloween yet, is it? Yeah. I know. If I was me, I'd be more concerned that people think that's how you should dress when you're talking about cybersecurity. Well, I Yeah. I mean, I sort of I feel overdressed. Now. Maybe we should also explain for the ones who are listening on the podcast. Tim's voice is affected by the prosthetic teeth that he's going on. He just makes no sense at all already, at all. All right. So I'm looking forward to getting stuck into the conversation around cybersecurity. But let's go let's go through the news that really struck a chord this week. So for the first week, in a very, very, very long time. There's no big, chunky piece of global news that got everyone's attention. So that actually makes it harder for me to pull the news together that matters. So there's probably more but I'll try and go through it quite rapidly in guys just jumping on anything. That sort of speaks to you. But the big news this morning that we woke up to especially in Asia Pacific is that Facebook is now meta. Now based on the conversation I'm seeing on Facebook, it does not mean that Facebook is changing its name. It means that the parent company has to ranging its name to meta, like alphabet is for Google, right? And then that didn't really catch on. But it's all part of Facebook's attempt to improve its shattered image. So that's one of the reasons for it. The other is, it's in line with its plans to build metaverse. And so this has been explained as a place where people can can game work and communicate in a virtual environment, often using VR headsets. So this sort of reminds me of a movie that I saw where the future didn't look very nice. What is the metaverse? Well, Mark Zuckerberg doesn't even know. But Andy, do you want to give it a crack? I'll give it a crack. And I'll give it a crap why I think they've done what they've done. It's similar to Google with alphabet. They don't want to be associated with simply one product. So Google didn't want to be associated with purely search engines and advertising because they're in lots of other businesses as well. And Facebook doesn't want to just be associated with one social media platform, though. They're moving into other businesses. And one of the areas that they're looking at moving into they are starting to move into is the so called Metaverse, and I don't know if any of you guys familiar with a lot of kids play in, in these kinds of environments. Are any of you guys familiar with Roblox? Yeah, so So Roblox, you kind of have your own avatar, you have a virtual currency, though, almost my say to my kids, see if you can find a way of converting the robots into real currency, when there might be a way sooner or later, but, but they kind of live in this in this virtual world, our friends hang out there, they have these avatars, they buy stuff with this currency that we give them, actually, I mean, I feel terrible doing it, but we buy it in Singapore dollars, and it's converted into robots, which is the currency that's used in this environment, and they have this kind of virtual existence. And that is what Facebook's looking at. But on a much, I think, bigger scale and not specifically focused on kids. Having said that, Roblox is looking at entering other markets and, you know, finding, creating equivalent kind of kinds of matter versus let's say, for adults, but broadly, that's my kind of understanding of it. I mean, this stuff already exists, our kids are in it. Facebook's looking at just taking it much further and getting adults more involved in in these kinds of environments. Yeah, and movie surrogates. surrogates. Yeah, there's, there's another one where they're all living in dumps, but they escaped into these virtual worlds. And I think a lot of people. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that sounds right. I think a lot of people will automatically go into a place of fear. What does this mean, but I don't know, my big issue around this is for face book or meta is, you know, this all in approach, fine. You know, we're moving in our children have grown up in this environment. So moving into this environment in a bigger way, obviously makes sense. But until they really address the underlying issues that have caused the problems and the technology algorithms that have caused the problems and the divisions that they create, and the problems they're creating all around the world through elections and stuff. I don't care how many times they change their name, they've got to, they've got to address the problem that they've created all of the other social media companies do. But I think Facebook in particular needs to be nice to be on the ball with that, man, can I jump in? I mean, Can I Can I jump in here because I don't want to dominate the conversation too much around this. But I mean, that's a real bugbear of mine, because Facebook is the information source for such a large proportion of the world's population today. So if you go to a lot of Southeast Asian countries, I'm not sure exactly in Thailand, but I certainly in Indonesia, in the Philippines, it is the source of information for so many people. And the misinformation has been peddled there to horrendous degree by various vested interests and mix of nation states and No, no others as well. So you know, you talk to guys, and I've spoken to folks in Indonesia, about, you know, the, the pandemic, and, you know, I've had conversations where I've said to somebody, you know, are you are you vaccinated? What's the take up? Like, are you guys able to get vaccines? And I said, yeah, in Jakarta, it's not a problem. Although to read the news, you believe there was a lack of supply Lego in Jakarta is not a problem. It's just that people are scared of the vaccines that are available. They want the Chinese ones, they'll say, a lot of people want the Chinese ones because they believe the Chinese ones are less dangerous than these Western ones. And the Chinese ones were in inverted commas tested on Chinese are tested on Asians. And you know, China knows better because that's where it where it came from in the first place that the disease so there's this and China's handling it better, right. So there's this narrative that, you know, in this case, we can assume it's a nation state that's behind it, but there's this narrative going around a lot of Southeast Asian countries. That's very disruptive. And Facebook isn't doing enough to address that. I mean, it's only partially doing it in the English line. In which let alone Bahasa Indonesian, Thai, Tagalog and so forth. And that that's a huge project for to get on to the those other countries. Yeah, I just found out some friends, one of my friends is in hospital with a pretty, pretty serious case of COVID. He looks like he's gonna be okay. And they basically did a blood test and the sign of back. So we all got signed back, sort of June, July. So what it's now October, and it's basically non existent in the system. So in Thailand, they wrote in a boosters, so we've been able to get an AstraZeneca, but my friend hadn't had a booster. So yeah, the whole sinovac sort of side of things. If you've had that, please look into it. Because yeah, this friend of mine is he's had a pretty rough week. From what from what I've heard, you know, it's better than nothing. I mean, you know, to discredit it until we well, now available. But but you know, from the research that's been done indicates the efficacy of some of the other ones is high. But I think the challenge and in some countries is people were actually and some people even in Singapore are rejecting the some of the available vaccines, you know, whether AstraZeneca or Pfizer or Madonna? Yeah. Well, as far as he's concerned, he got a blood test. And he's got no sign of that left in the system after a few months. So another big story that sort of started to emerge earlier in the week was the military coup in Sudan. Did you guys have we have you guys been having a look at that one? Yeah, I saw that. And it seemed, I was actually quite struck my heart and BBC seemed very partisan on it. They seemed to have a very clear view or which side they were they were on on that. And it seemed like a very interesting thing about how people, you know, like, like, he just lost patience with leadership, and then said, Okay, I'll drive. Yeah, I think it's a little bit more to it than that. And there was one BBC article I shared with you, which I thought was pretty interesting. So the guy who took over was is a guy called General berghahn. And obviously, the impact on Sudan has been pretty swift, their international standing as an emerging democracy, democracies, obviously on the line, debt relief, international aid, as well. And obviously the peace negotiations with the rebels. That's that's the big issue. But it wasn't it wasn't a country at peace. We could see all the protests. But so why is that happening now? Right. That's the big issue. He was one of the most powerful men in the country. Why did he need to do it? Well, so it turns out, he was based on the agreement with the new government, and he was being going to be stepping down in a few months. But if he steps down, he couldn't then be held up for culpability for human rights abuses. So the government, the civilian government, which he's overtaken, have agreed in principle to hand ex President Bashir over to the International Criminal Court. And his former lieutenants in general Bohan was one of them. Basically, I've been trying to get him to be tried in Sudan, not in the Hague, because they believe that bishop Bashir will actually name them, him included for the for the alleged atrocities that basically happened during the Darfur war. So it's a self protection mechanism. But this year has been a time of coups, right. And I couldn't help but link it back to the coup in Myanma earlier this year, which, you know, and that's just just literally over the border, we could drive to the border in a couple of hours. And, you know, it's just created such an amazing amount of suffering for the for the Burmese people with COVID, and the economic fallout. But what's been really interesting about that story, just this week on this last week, is the general who sees power back in February, has been told he cannot attend the Asian Summit that's coming up in the next couple of weeks. And this is seen as an unprecedented move for the 10 member, bloc nations in Asia, because basically, they traditionally don't get involved in each other's politics. So I thought that was a pretty interesting side of the story as well. But yeah, it's been a time of Kusa time of stepping back. And it's fair to say, across the globe, there's just there's a move towards authoritarianism. There's a lot of a move against democracy taking place at the moment that the tide seems to return a little bit hopefully I won't go too far in the world seems to be divided, based on whether it's more on the so called democracy camp or the authoritarian camp. And there's a we're finding, again, manipulation by some of the powers to try to to encourage some of these these these coups and to create countries that are more aligned with their way of governance. Yeah, and the whole populism as well right. Yes, yeah. Yeah. And do the strong government target minorities say look, it's the fault of these these minority groups, you know, not hard, so ready to the mainstream population. We do get sucked in, don't we? The mall democracy is weak. totally unrelated news as to new website has just come up meta Sudan and meta Myanma hmm. Okay, that's a call back and a terrible thing to do in the middle of serious news. But yeah. Another breaking story, which just in the build up to the show I found out has changed and you can jump in, but the Democrats in order to pay for their agenda looks like they want to tax the billionaires. So the, the idea is that billionaires would be taxed on the unrealized gains in the value of their liquid assets. So this is stocks, bonds and cash. And the text would the tax would be levied on anyone with more than $1 billion in assets or or, or more than 100 million in income for three consecutive years. So this is about 700 people in the United States. But Andy, you have saying that this is already changing? Yeah. So I mean, I'm all for taxing them. And my understanding just something I read today was that was that? They I think they did something I read just a bit earlier, it was I think a decision has been made, not to tax the individuals but to tax to raise corporate tax for profits of more than a billion dollars is what I what I read recently. I mean, maybe that's less I maybe I can't I can't guarantee that that's exactly what's happening. But that's what I read, you know, a few hours ago. Yeah, as well as my understanding of what's happening, I think, the issue with individuals is, it's in a way, there aren't that many of them, right. So as you say, about 700 billionaires. So you're targeting a very small number of people and what you know, it's, it's going to be quite tricky the cost of actually getting to them and deciding which elements of their income you're going to tax and how to do it will probably be quite high. So it's probably it's probably simpler for them to put a system in place, targeting a certain level of corporate profits. But again, you know, there are ways around that, too. So I think a lot of this is a lot of this when they target Bill, you know, and they use that terminology, somewhat symbolic. I mean, it's hard to disagree with them and doing it. But it's symbolic. They're not not even if they got those guys, they wouldn't get anything like enough to cover, you know, the spending bills that they're talking about. Even if they did get a you know, 100 million 10 million, 20 million extra of those people are spending. Yeah, they can hide their money and show that they're not earning anything. All the money's in the middle of this. Yeah, it becomes very difficult to, you know, to tax these folks. Right. I mean, yeah, look at Donald Trump. how little he paid. I mean, I understand this set to still be a billionaire. Well, he says he is. And he's the best one there is. Obviously, yeah, it's a typical one that I've seen lots of conversations going on about it, but the the 15% tax rate for corporate corporations across the world, even though that's, you know, a few years in the making, but that's sort of that's gonna sort of even the playing field a little bit and stop people and sort of putting money in different places. But, you know, the whole wealth is the inequality. You know, that that's, that's the big issue that needs to be addressed. And if I was a billionaire, I don't know, I I'd be, you know, like, you look at how much Bill Gates invests of his personal income into into things that he cares about. If I, if I was extremely wealthy, I'd probably want to be putting my money where I thought it needed to go versus relying on inefficient. But there's, there's I think, I think the Singapore's actually got a good model, just to kind of indirect tax, right. So, you know, they tax very high tax on luxury goods, right? Very high tax and on damaging goods, right. So very high tech, well, so called sin items, right? It's a very high tax and cigarettes alcohol, in a very high tax on cars, and particularly luxury cars, right, relatively high stamp duty, if you stop, you know, buying investment properties and so forth. So, so I quite, I think perhaps in Western countries, they could look at that model to a greater extent, given how challenging it is to tax the super rich, given the ways that they can present there well thoroughly to get around, you know, some of the tax infrastructure and the regulations and as you say, you know, it's it's, you know, it's, it's not it's also not very popular, so increasing income tax, whoever It's on. It's politically unpopular. Yeah, what about you, Joe? What do you reckon? Well, I'm thinking about it as soon as I heard about it, and thought, you know, isn't it kind of the obligation of the of companies and wealthy people to try and figure out a way not to give it away, you know, unwittingly, right. I mean, that's kind of how you you get there in the first place. You figure out some good ways to amass wealth, you figure out good ways to get good returns. It's almost like you owe it to yourself to play the game some All right as in you know, if you get mad and you can avoid it some way you can figure something out, like we talked about the earnings. If you just tax it directly and interest on revenue, then that would be a simple thing. But we we inadvertently give them rules that they can try and figure out ways around. Right? So that's a game I can't resist playing. I mean, I even though I'm not a billionaire, I choose to pay as little tax as I can. Yeah. League with a much better mindset, it's for me, tech tax is always such an interesting thing. And it's very emotional argument. I whenever I pay tax, I always say my tax is going towards supporting single mothers, because I think they're, they had the hardest hardest job in the world. And they're also the most criticized, you know, by society, but I, I'm like, Yeah, my taxes paying for them, but it's the obligation to each other. So if I was an American billionaire, looking around my country, the infrastructure is a shambles, the education system to shambles, you know, society is not operating at the standard, it should be if it's the greatest country on Earth, so contributing to society, the police force of you know, fire, fire departments, all that sort of stuff, it's on all of us to contribute. Whereas in Singapore, they kind of, they kind of set up the system to do it for you. But they take care of all of that stuff. But, you know, in countries like America, which are crumbling, you know, you know, Golden State Andriola. Right. So some states infrastructure is better in the higher tax states and some low tax ones infrastructure is quite good as well, it's unfair to just say, the higher some high tax ones, the infrastructure is poor, right? Yeah. It varies so much from place to place. And the same with the indirect tax, like the state taxes are non existent, or very low in some places. I mean, I remember living in, in DC in the days when I smoked, and the cost of a packet of cigarettes in DC was something like $12. But if I just went over to Virginia, it was something like$3.50 cigarettes in Virginia. So they have these, you know, varying, you know, tax regimes, depending depending on where you are, but I'm all for more indirect. So just type things like so every time you buy a packet of cigarettes or a drink, you're paying tax, right? Yeah, a significant amount, a very high proportion of the cost of that beer, or that packet of cigarettes is that but having said that, cigarettes probably won't graded cream much for much longer given that it's a habit that seems to be dying out very rapidly. Yeah. Well, then Jeff Bezos luxury yacht with the other yacht inside your that kind of thing? Yeah. Incredible. Anything to add on that one before we move on to COVID? All right. Couple of couple of stories, I'll just go through them quickly. Brazil sent sentences backing criminal charges against Bolsonaro, over the handling of COVID. And an includes eight charges and why one is a crime against humanity. So they put together a detailed report, which has been prepared for the case. And this has been handed to the chief prosecutor, who is our Bolson our appointees, so the chances of being charged are pretty much zero. And Bolson arrow you have to remember is the man who told Brazilians to stop whining about COVID. And this was a day after the country saw a record rise in deaths over a 24 hour period. So they've got a population of 208 million people at least 606,000 deaths, second only to the US. And, of course, Trump conveyed his support for Bolsonaro after this announcement was made. Did you guys say that one? Yeah. I mean, I've attacked I mean, I don't agree with that. I don't agree. I mean, I don't like Bolsonaro. One, but I don't like what he said. But I don't think you should be prosecuting political leaders for making screw ups over a virus that nobody predicted or planned for it, regardless of the political position of on it, even though, you know, I don't think it should have been politicized in the first place, even though it gets very, very wrong. You know, that he was That was his position on it. He was elected if you don't, at the end of the day, if you disagree with his position on a democracy, vote him out. So hopefully, in Brazil, say democracy, so is that as possible, but I think prosecuting him is going a step too far. And they're not gonna they're not going to succeed. And he's popularity has been impacted by this. So I figure ultimately, that's that's the goal getting another populist leader out. Right. So that should be by the ballot box. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's a good point. Jamie, from the opposition. I don't know if it's actually the opposition. I think it's his own party as well. So, you know, there's, it's a fairly comprehensive you know, it's like report that, you know, a lot of a lot of the government, current government are involved in, there's a lot of outrage rage in Brazil every sandling of COVID. So, yeah. Puerto Rico itself. usually become the most vaccinated place in America. So this is a country or state that's been pummeled by deadly hurricanes, earthquakes, political unrest, and it's got incredible debt. So it's a they know suffering, right. And as a result, I listen to the scientists, it never became a political issue. And they just got out there and got out into the community and got the vaccines into into everybody's. So right now they've got 73% of the population fully vaccinated. The closest state after that is Vermont, which has almost 71%. So other big stories around COVID that broke this week, so Merck, Merck has agreed to that it will sell its COVID pill with poor countries. And that looks like it's going to be moving quickly. So these are the pills that you take when you know you're sick before you go into hospital and you're on death's door. So that's some good news from from COVID perspective. And the other big breaking news was, of course, that Pfizer has been approved unanimously by the FDA. It's not it's not in it's going to be officially approved, possibly just after Halloween, but children aged ages five to 11. I think that's going to get a lot of chatter, especially from parents. But one of the articles that I read this week that I thought was absolutely fantastic, was one that Joe shared. And it talks about how Singapore fell victim to its own success. Yet its worst killer is not COVID-19, although it's such a great article, Jonah, just sort of give a overview of that one. Now, I'm going to confess when you mentioned this, just before the show started, I went into a panic it's almost as bad a panic as forgetting Andrews surnames, but it was it was seamless. I don't remember which article you're talking about. So okay, I'm not sure did i Did I really say this? I've only had about six hours sleep well, the past five days. So$20,000 You promised? Yeah. Okay. Andy Warhol, some money. This. This is the one that shows that people in Singapore who are so it's vaccinated versus unvaccinated. So if you're unvaccinated a lot of times more 11 times deadly. But also the people who have been vaccinated it was only single vaccines, not double fully vaccinated. Who I think what happens here is this I have I'm you're encountering What do you call the Mandela Effect? Right, because you saw a story that seemed to be the kind of story that I would have shared. So I I'm very sure I didn't share that story. But it's the kind of story that I that I would share. And I've been getting on this whole thing about the statistics and the truth about vaccinations and stuff like that. So there was a pretty good infographics of late, I can't claim to have shared that, although I'm very, it's very much the kind of story that I that I would try to push forward. People. I beg your pardon. Let's talk about sleep deprivation and its impacts on memory and performance. Yeah, we, we could do that. But you know, someone like myself, 25 year old. I do. Alright, so I'm just not as very handsome. You mean, those teeth aren't real. And Lavinia? I think I've just noticed their comments. They're all based on how you how handsome you were at the beginning there. So welcome. I'm presuming the Facebook user that we can identify Steve. Here. He's, he's a good husband. He watches every week. Yeah, no, you did share a job anyway, it was it was a fantastic article. But what it did was, it was basically saying, I think there's 370 Something deaths in Singapore. Is that sound right? From COVID? Yep. But if Singapore didn't follow its approach, there'd be anywhere between 12 and 15,000 deaths. And it shows just some really fantastic data compared to vaccinated not vaccinated, the huge number of people in the population of Singapore that haven't been vaccinated, and how what that means for the rest of the community. While it looks like people are interpreting a lot of the data that's being presented as a failure, if you actually look at these read this article, look between the lines, it's shown that Singapore has actually been a huge success. And the only country that's ahead of Singapore is New Zealand, but they're still closed off. And basically the message, you can't stay closed off forever. Singapore stays closed or closed off for as long as it could. It's now opening up Delta Xin, once it's in, it's in. But the numbers speak for themselves. And the government's done a good job. They're also saying Singapore is not the sort of government that they get on with doing the work rather than talking about the work. They're not looking for a pat on the back. They're looking to do the job. Right. So I thought it Yeah, it was a really, it was a really good article and sort of links to a few weeks of conversation we've been having is that the right approach is a lot of frustration in Singapore. So I think it's a it was a good pace. Yeah, I mean, the the approach, the approach seems to be and I see this sort of rippling everywhere. It seems to be once you have the population fully vaccinated, over a percent, you know, whether it's 80 or 85, or 90 or Whatever the percentage that they're choosing in that particular country or state, then things can open. And so Singapore strategy obviously has been Get, get as many people vaccinated as we possibly can over 8085 90% of the eligible population. And, and then let it in, which has been, you know, and which is why we've got like, over 5000, you know, cases now and stuff like that. And, and which, which basically means we're all going to get it. It's just going to be mild for most of us, because we've had the jab. So and then it's, you know, sort of move on with your lives kind of thing. That seems to be, that seems to be the case. There are some technical like Australia's opening up as well, but with those sorts of rules, so states can open once once the population is got over 80 something percent or 80%, fully vaccinated in that particular state, then it can open up for international travel starting again in November. And, and so yeah, so it's, it's it this, this seems to be happening everywhere. The challenge, the challenge is that the existing technological infrastructure may not be able to cope. And the human call center style infrastructure may not be able to cope, let alone that the hospital beds and ICUs should be able to to a degree, I read that Singapore's converting the f1 pit lane building into a hospital, sort of temporary sort of hospital as well. And so just to make sure that we've got more more care facilities, and that is an existing building that's not being utilized. So what percentage of ICU beds are taking up now? You guys know? Well, it happens to be that I produce the COVID-19 updates from Singapore. And I call up two charts, which I thought at some point I'd be sharing with you Yeah, I actually have the actual numbers. We were actually pretty good and ICU beds. There's like a national capacity of about 357 beds right now. And we have 72 beds, empty. So that's the kind of headroom that we have. I would share the screen with you. But I'm not sure exactly what will happen to our screen as we as we do that. But the thing that we've been able to do here in Singapore is we've we've managed to keep enough headroom that in terms of number of beds available. But when you when you think about the actual number of beds empty right now 72. And you think about a daily infection rate that has gone past 5000 I think not enough, people are feeling nervous about that. But people are getting too, you know, used to the idea that COVID is just everywhere. I always talk about the the way people go to the malls, you feel the malls are less crowded, but when you go around to the community centers and the areas around where we live, and I'm not sure that it was the same for you as well, Tim, but down to the coffee shop and other places where everyone lives. Apart from the masks, sometimes it's very hard to say that there is a pandemic, the behavior has become pre pandemic, again, we're careless, I think casually as well. And we get together for like, like, I won't exactly say what the circumstances that I have been recently, but I've been to a number of, of informal meetings where as soon as the doors were closed, the behavior became quite callous, you know, no masks, everyone was just interacting. You know, some some people just don't even test. So it's it's, it's that combination of stuff happening together, right? We have, we have a high rate, the chances of meeting COVID actually is pretty high. If something bad happens, we do have some capacity left, but it's only 72 beds, if you think about it in relation to everything. But based on the statistics, and based on the science, though, it is pretty good. Because you know, like 96% of the of the adult population is vaccinated, and they represent only 40% of the people, you know, requiring serious hospital care. And that's a very significant statistic Just to add, those people typically have comorbidities it would be interesting to know how many vaccinated people require that kind of intensive care who've got no comorbidities I think it's it's very low indeed. Yeah, but one of the things about comorbid morbidities is that we tend to discount a lot of things that we might not normally think about as common comorbidities like it just being fat is a common comorbidity you know, you might have, you might have early stage diabetes to and that might be seen as down as well. It's true. If you have asthma, it makes you more more susceptible, but it is still a factor and I think people will have to I think that on board, I mean, I was thinking of more severe ones. So significant Colin Powell example. You know, he had both Parkinson's and, and cancer, right. So I wasn't thinking of, you know, being overweight or defined as obese so much, because, hey, you know, probably 25 30% of the population is unaware, if not more, or as you say, early stage diabetes, I was thinking, you know, I'll be interesting to see those statistics in more detail. But the impression they give is that if you're vaccinated, and you haven't got some, you're not working on another sickness, it's quite severe, you know, Shabbir, you're highly unlikely to require intensive care oxygen. The problem for me is I'm exposed to both sides of it, the COVID side of things, and also the healthy longevity part of it, right. And there's a kind of a curve that happens about just just general sickness in general, as General sickness, right. And as you get older, that all piles up. So that's why we look at the deaths and the numbers in the higher age group. It's not just about the fact that they are older, it also means that that whole that they're much higher up along the curve of illnesses as well. So they're inherently going to have comorbidities built into it just because the old, you know, yeah. The joys of aging. Yeah, to that point. Yeah. Yeah. The older you get the chances are you will have a comorbidity if you, you know, over the age of 75, a severe one, right, rather than just being a bit plump up. There's a there's a big rush, because I think someone mentioned the number and I have to confirm that but something like 70,000 people who are the most at risk, the older people are not vaccinated. And that that is actually the real danger. Because as the invention you know, what's happening now is it's going to be just about everywhere if we if we've kind of prepared ourselves as much as we can, and now we're saying, Okay, we're going to go to the next part of it and welcome the wave. And that that's going to be reasonably, honestly harmless, but it's not going to be as bad for most of us. But for those people who have who are in that higher age group and who are not vaccinated, then you've got that real double whammy coming on. They're already would be susceptible, and now they have the additional sort of blast, they'll get from Delta. And then delta plus might make it in their own. Okay, so we watch them wait, it's always been a long term story. Alright, shall we move into the environment? So the show has begun in the US Congress. So major US oil companies are being quizzed. One of the Demmick democratic representatives ROH Khanna said the idea is for them to admit to the American people what they have done. It's kind of like the, the tobacco industry when they when they were so honest, in admitting that, you know, cancer, the cigarette harms people. But anyway, a statement by the committee said the industry had known about the effects of global warming since 1977. But for decades spread denial and doubt about the harm of its products. So one to watch, I My hope is not high. Another one is 10 of the world's most protected forests have become net emitters of carbon, as as they are degraded by human activity and climate change. So these are forests that are protected by the UNESCO World Heritage Sites, or they are part of that. And it just shows that even the most protected the most funded sites, us still kind of scape. One good piece out of the Biden plan is that they're expecting to contribute at least 500 billion to climate change. So they are dropping other things like parental leave, we've obviously seen individual senators, basically stopping progress on on critical critical things, but it looks like they're absolutely committed to climate change. Action. So let's say that I saw just before we got on the call that Biden's arrived in Europe without an agreement. So Australia has been in the media and has been mocked all week. Have you guys seen that? And this is by basically following its weak commitment to change before cop 26 I felt so proud to be Australian. But the one of the one of the things that Australia is has not addressed and it will never I can imagine it will address well. SkyMiles still in power, is its biggest contribution to climate change isn't what happens in Australia, but due to its fossil fuel exports. So basically, it's time to measure that. And it's time to put that measurement on the countries who are selling it. And if you look at countries like Norway, who's always at the top of the green waiting lists, well, you know, if they factor in their oil exports, they'll they'll be pretty low down on the list too. So not a proud week to be listed. rollin Andy, how's it going? Again, this is where, you know, this whole indirect taxation approach, you just, you know, just tax tax taxes, guys tax them more make people pay way more for using, you know, for using non renewable fuel subsidize people for using the renewable just change the regulator environment just changed the rules of the game a little bit. It shouldn't be rocket science to do that. It really shouldn't. I think the problem is there was a time when they did make those changes. I mean, I remember growing up because essentially, you say we've known about, you know, I'm baloney about global warming when I was about 10 years old, I don't want to give away my age too much. But you know, it was a long time ago, right? Not long after the date you just mentioned. So we've known about it for a long time. And I remember in the 80s, there was a lot of government action to get rid of, for lead free petrol, the ozone layer, getting rid of CFCs, and so on. And it was relatively easy to do then, to try and green issues. We're big on the agenda, even of right wing governments and the British Conservative Party were big on it was a big, big right. And the Green parties were big all over Europe, in in the Democrats. I think even the Republicans, you know, took it on board at one point. And I think the what made it easier for them is that at that time, about 85%, of the world's world's GDP and economic activity was just North America, Western Europe and Japan. I think the problem is just going saying to emerging countries, sorry, you can't do what we've done. And these these markets as these countries emit so much more, because they've got a billion people rather than say what the UK would have happened, it was a bad emit, particularly bad emitter, you know, 30 40 million people in the 1900s, when it was the biggest emitter. So so the scale of what you're dealing with is changing. It's very hard to persuade people in developing countries to do this. And you will have politicians and Western countries who will say, well, we don't want to be at a competitive disadvantage against China or India who don't have to worry about these regulations that we do. So. So my view has been almost no progress since the early 1990s. And we've known it all since the late 70s. Yeah, it's not it's it's been something that we've known the scientists, the oil companies, whoever everybody who reads a book just studies Geographia. Do you understand that? We know we've known it for a long, long time. And I just don't think there's been any progress in about 30 years. And that's, and it's a lot of it has to do with the great benefits of globalization. But it's to do with this very rapid globalization is very rapid economic development and countries with huge populations. Yeah, especially in the last decade, right. So the emerging middle class went from, I think, was 500 million in 2013. And it's estimated to hit 1.7 5 billion by 2020. So that's a Kishore mahbubani statement. And, you know, I don't think there's enough conversation about that. But you were talking about renewables in taxing the fossil fuel versus the renewables. But I think a lot of people don't actually, like solar panels in China. Right. That would, they're made, that they're, that they're still produced with emissions, because it all the energies come from coal, and you know, that sort of stuff. So it's even then it's not a clear cut thing. And, you know, and the fossil fuel industry is so intertwined in so many layers of society and governance and states, and, you know, the it's an insidious thing within our global society. So it's about getting it out. You know, and, you know, if they have said in 77, right, well, you know, we'd better sort this out, because by 2020, we're going to be on a road to catastrophe, where they could, gradually worked it out. And, you know, but we didn't have that we didn't do it. So now it's this sudden shift that we have to make. And, you know, so the choice is economic devastation now, or economic devastation, whenever the worst starts to hit, we're not paying for the damage, it's not factored into the way we behave and pay for things. For example, palm oil, right? So that's in pretty much every all the ridiculously cheap goods, but you should pay a lot more given the amount of damage that you that palm oil plantations, cause you should pay way more for those products. So somehow needs to be factored somehow needs. I mean, that's just an example. Yeah, somehow needs to be factored in. And as you say, if if producing these solar panels, in addition, again, we've got people talking about carbon taxes and so on, pay more for it. If it is costing a lot in terms of carbon emissions, then you should pay for it. Whoever is buying them should pay for that. That should just there should be a price on the damage on those externalities. Yeah, but eventually the price doesn't really matter, right? Like an electric vehicle. That's great, but it takes you at least I think it's seven years before you counter out the emissions that were put into creation, the creation of the vehicle so it can drive behavior like for example, let's say the price of of petrol in Singapore went up 10 times people would use public transport more. Yep. Well, most, that particular argument to me, always, always bugged me, you know about how pricing works, right? There is pricing. And then there is the, in the face of pricing, there is human behavior in terms of desire. I mean, the price of cars in Singapore should necessarily mean we don't drive, you do have a vehicle, if we were to take that same analogy back into time is that people would be, you have to choose between buying two horses and having a house. But we're perfectly happy to have a horse because it's convenient, right. And if if we have more money, we'll buy two horses, which, which adds more than the price of my of my house, it's a it's a very bad analogy right now. But there is this thing about how much I think in the in the end, we also have to factor in the actual value of something. So cars continue to be expensive here because they have their value, where they they really provide you the the back that convenience, which you're willing enough to pay for whether whether it's convenience, whether it's status, whatever it is that that value is enough for you to exchange something for it. So what we really need to do is work on changing value value is something which is perceived, and we need to knock it down and make it a small thing. That's what cultural when price, I think, is one tool. I'm not saying it's the only tool, I think there's one tool that you can use. But to your point about Singapore and the price of cars. If you think if you look at Singapore, I mean, a friend of mine was telling me how he's talking to a colleague and in Jakarta, and their colleagues saw against and rode behind them in like two or three cars just going down the road. Compared to what you would see out the window in Jakarta. There's not just a population, it's the cost of motoring is just is way lower right and in, in a lot of parts of the world and the congestion is just awful, almost unbearable. I think that that congestion, though, must be. But But Joe's point, was that your point was your point about just the congestion in Jakarta, there isn't congestion in Singapore. My point is that there are that people don't drive as much in places where cars are very expensive, right? So a lot of people just don't I know a lot of people, many people haven't. But I know a lot of people who would have a car if they lived in Australia who don't have a car in Singapore. They just think it's not worth $100,000 or whatever. That's exactly mean. So I think it is yeah, so I think it does take a lot of a lot of cars off the road, that policy that they have in Singapore. And it is rare. I mean, I'm not saying there are no traffic jams. There are some but the traffic jams are nothing compared to what I've experienced. And every other city I've visited I've been in. It's one of the great things about Singapore. Yeah, I mean, I'm a bit selfish. I do have a car. And I love the fact that I don't I don't run into these traffic jams the same degree and I can park very easily for three$4. It cost me like $80 in the center of this. Yeah. Yeah. So this is the amazing thing, right? So we amongst us, we know roughly what the price of a car is, or the vehicle is right. So how many? How many? How many vehicles? Do you think they're in Singapore? Given that we have a population of about, let's say, under 5 million? And cars are very expensive? I don't know. It's I know it's high. I know. I know. I know. Because it's almost a million we have almost a million vehicles 974,000 motor vehicles. There is a bit more to it than just that, that that that it's easy to drive around Singapore. I mean, we have we do we do have good systems in place, it makes it very viable to have. It is just too easy. It's just too good to have a car. That's really it. I mean, it's it's that's why it's still the valuable thing it is right. So if we had more traffic, I don't know, maybe it would be less what I think cars are slightly, I think if we go back to solar panels, or if you go to oil versus wind, for example. I think that that's, that's probably because it's it's the same outcome is that one of them was being subsidized, like crazy that's causing all the problem, and the other one isn't being subsidized enough. And what Andrew Andrew was saying before, is if we actually just took that subsidy from this one, and put it over to that one, that would that would change the pricing. And it would change the behavior, whereas everyone will still have a car. Everyone who wants a car has a car, I don't have a car because exactly what Andrew said, I don't see the value in Australia. There's, there's the car is cheaper, but the distance is far greater. And that's that's the big difference. If you want to get out to the farm or you want to get up to see to go and visit somewhere else or whatever. You're not going to wait two and a half hours for a train to turn up. You're going to just get in the car and go And we need that sort of ability with Singapore absolutely don't need it. You might, you might just that might change a little bit once you get over to children. Once you get past the EU children mark, then the economics. But but you know, there's there's a lot, there's a lot happening here said Singapore is very different on the cost side. But I do think pricing makes a big difference when it comes to the subsidies and human and behavior of what we choose based on those subsidies. Because I mean, Jay, I totally agree with you. But Joe, you know, as a Singapore, I mean, as a as a company, I guess I know, that happened here for 10 years now. But one of the things that I did think was good about the Gup, the government approach was the fact that they invest in this brilliant public transport, a phenomenally low price that anyone can use, right? It's clean, comfortable, efficient, remarkably cheap, right? Unlike any other city in the world I've lived in, where it's kind of a bit shabby, and often overpriced. And the cost of motoring is very high, taking a lot of cars that might otherwise be on the road off the road. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, maybe, maybe diminished demand in elastic, because I guess what you were suggesting that people will pay whatever price is necessary to have a car. But the sense I get is it's a it's actually a quite a green policy. To transport, we basically just put a quarter on the number of cars, and we limited the supply part. And actually, the reason why the cars are expensive is demand. So that, you know, like, like one of the things that was mentioned at the conference we were at is that it always comes down to human failure. Right? So the baby reduced the number of vehicles we could put out there. But it's that human behavior that still desires the car, the vehicle that that builds the price up. It's not it's not everyone who, who buys a car in Singapore, who's wealthy, you know that quite a lot of people who buy cars who should have no business buying cars. It's just not economically another good idea. Hmm. That's an that's an interesting point. Just just couple, one quick one, one long one. Okay. So the first thing or the first one is, a report came out in the ABC that the Australian wine industry is actually moving south. So basically, a lot of the major wineries so I grew up just near Brown Brothers. In Country Victorian, they're now relocating to Tasmania, and they're expecting in the future, that your bubbles will not come from France, but they'll come from Tassie. So I thought that was a really interesting one, you don't really care so much anymore, Tim, because you're not, you know, drinking wine anymore. But I thought that was interesting. But one of the articles I really, really want to encourage everyone to read to read is in phys.org, which is a really good site. And it's basically titled climate scientists fee tipping points, maybe you should, too. And this is really an article that really explores, you know, it's, we're, it's this complex, interlocking climate system where when one thing goes, another thing will be impacted. So obviously, we've talked about permafrost before, but basically in the permafrost, right now is two times the amount of carbon that's currently in the atmosphere locked into the permafrost. So as the permafrost smells, we've got two times more carbon coming out. Right, but then what we've already got in the atmosphere, so it's a big thing. And when you look at that, and yet, yeah, obviously Methane is a big part of it. To understand the tipping point, you've got to go really big pictures, because it's things like the monsoon system, ocean circulation, circulation, sorry, the jet stream. And then of course, the big, big ecosystems, and because they're all interlinked, and if any one of them breaks, and you know, we've talked about the, the AOC, which is the, you know, the current that comes through down America, and that sort of pushes warm water this way, or warm water that way. So these are important. So if any of these sort of fall over, we've got abrupt change, and that this is the crisis. So there are 15 significant tipping points. And those least resistant to global warming, which may end also closest to the point of no return are the tropical coral reefs. So I was just snorkeling on some coral reefs just this week. The West Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets, alpine glaciers, so if you want to go skiing in in the alpine region, you should probably get get your boots on Arctic summer sea ice, and the Amazon forest, which if it passes the tipping point, which a couple of years ago, an expert said it already had, it's going to be a savanna. And so you know, we've talked about that, before that it all sort of links up. And that's global. It sort of manages global weather patterns. So the core, the core point here is we have absolutely no time to lose. And if you read a lot of the stuff that's coming out around cop 26 I'm not feeling I'm not feeling very hopeful. I'm not at the moment I'd like to be, but I'm not from what I'm reading. So pay attention to it. Read this article, read the other articles too. So that's the environment for today. feel miserable. I was gonna say I was trying to think about what can we do about this right now and and I think the only thing that that there is to do really is to keep talking about it to keep putting it out there and and to do in such a way that you don't seem like the crazy person. I think one of the problems that comes along with this is that there is an increasing desperation about the story. And you know, there's a there's a nature about us that doesn't want to listen to desperate people as desperate people are saying what they say we tend to put a bit of space between ourselves and them. We need to be able to teach people to speak about it, you know, so that we don't sound desperate and we don't sound you know, on the fringe. Yeah, so that you got you got me feeling really depressed and I really didn't know what to say with that. Fearful news. So so we've got our end of the world is nice sandwich board on. But underneath that we're all wearing Spanx. Did you hear about the nice gesture from Sara Sara Blakely, the founder and CEO of Spanx. So they just did a VC deal, I think with black mob Black Rock by black stone, or some partnership with Blackstone and agenda of valuing Spanx at $1.2 billion. So she had 500 staff in the room, she did a bit of an Oprah where she thanked them all and did a sort of champers cheese, possibly bubbly, from Tassie chef, probably never, but Shabbos Cheers to all the women in the world that didn't have the opportunities that they had, even in thinking about a mother and grandmothers that didn't quite have the opportunities that she had. And then she made a comment about how women are underrepresented underrepresented in VC funding. And why that's not right, based on the number of women entrepreneurs that are out there and how their ideas can be make a real difference. And then she went over to this little globe and started spinning it around and go you know, when why I'm spinning this globe around, it's because to thank everybody for what they've done. And for what's just happened. I bought each one of you to first class tickets to anywhere in the world, which might have a environmental problem. But she bought two first things everywhere in the world. And while you they might need to go to a nice restaurant and spend some money, so you're getting $10,000 cash each as well. And they all were just like ooh, which is which is really not a nice, nice feel. Good thing. Yeah. flying off the sandwich board. were happening and enjoy salsa in Rio. before it becomes a savannah. Yeah, well, exactly right. Oh, come to Thailand and spend some money because people need it, and many other countries around the world. Alright, shall we move on to our theme this week, which is cybersecurity, why it's hot and why you should care. So it's actually Cybersecurity Awareness Month, which I didn't realize. But we're really, I'm excited to hear Andrews thoughts. I've got a lot of respect for Andrew Andrews opinions. But in case you haven't been paying attention, cybersecurity has definitely been a hot issue in the last couple of years, especially during the pandemic. I mean, it's always an important issue. But it's something that's just just today I just read a Thailand, a Thai Hotel Group has been had a cybersecurity attack, and all the information has been stolen. But it's become harder. So Andy, you know, why is it important? Why now? Why should we care? Yeah, well, you don't have to? I mean, you don't have to? It's a it's a it's a risk appetite issue, really. So it's all it's all a risk game. So, you know, some folks say, Well, I don't really care, I'm willing to take the risk of, of, you know, depending whether you're a company or a private individual, but let's just assume you're a company. Some companies might say, Well, look, we're willing to take bigger risks. We don't want to invest in all these controls, and all these people and change all these policies, whereas other organizations are willing to, you know, are less willing to take risks, and there may be regulatory, or compliance reasons why they have to do it. But why is it such a big deal now? Right, so why are people more concerned about our party because the risk of actually being attacked, and the impact of those attacks is, is much higher than ever before. And this is becoming more severe. Just because we use more technology. It's as simple as that technology is actually the problem. It's, the more the more we do the kind of thing we're doing now, the more we shop online, the more we collaborate using this kind of technology. You know, the more we use Cloud, the more we work from home, the more the bigger the so called attack surface. So the more opportunities were offering the threat actors, and at the same time, those threat actors are becoming way way more sophisticated. And again, the technology we're using is giving them more opportunities to do all kinds of cutting things. But you know, just to just to give you to say something a little bit really cut to the chase, you are I just in a very, very short period of time could launch a sophisticated cyber attack that could potentially cause very severe damage in 24 hours, because you can go on to the dark web, and without much technical knowledge, you can buy ransomware as a service kits, or DDoS distributed denial of service kits. And you could get a friend, maybe you could pay someone in an organization, you know, just throw Alicia there. Or you could just send out loads of emails to everybody in this organization get, basically phishing emails, right. And the chances are, someone will fall for it, you know, if you do enough. So it's not that hard. You know, you don't even need to be technical, to launch one of these attacks. And because organizations are using more technology, they're transitioning, they're going through, you know, what we describe as digital transformation, often that's very centered around the cloud, they're so focused on getting everything done, that they're not really thinking about their, their cyber security posture, so to speak. So they often have what we call the industry controls. So they don't have controls that are really fit for purpose for the new way they do business and operate. And again, as everybody's working from home and rushing into using the cloud more and more, you know, chances are whatever organizations encourage you to do that as an all switched, it's, it's it's controls a cybersecurity posture. And this cybersecurity posture is not just technology. I mean, when you look at cybersecurity, it's all about thinking, what is it you're trying to do. So you have to think about policies first. And then you buy technology that enables you to enforce and implement those policies. A lot of people think, Oh, you just buy this technology and plug it in that are that are sorted out, you have to sit and think what it is you want to do. And then you look for the technology that does that. And typically, it'll be there. And then you ask someone to help you, again, I'm talking about it from a company perspective, from an individual private perspective, I guess, you know, people aren't as bothered, because they don't feel they've got as much to lose. And the banks, when we do banking, typically, the banks take responsibility for online fraud, not us. So if somebody manages to get our passwords, whatever it might be, you know, you know, we're not typically too worried about that the threat that we face, and what happens to us is more a case of people getting our data, harvesting our data from our devices, and it might not seem worth much, but you know, your data on the dark web might be worth a couple of dollars. And if you multiply this by million people's, you know, it's worth quite a lot. And that data helps, you know, certain organizations can a better picture of who's doing what, where they are, and so on. So your data, your data that somebody has got is probably floating around somewhere. And then there's the other big one we touched upon, which is these big misinformation campaigns are directed at Ordinary, ordinary individuals. And very often nation, state actors are behind those, or groups with a perhaps a political agenda. So they used to be they used to be, statistically, the chances of being being personally attacked, used to be more towards men than females, because the cyber attackers tend to be more males. So they go after males, because then they could sort of represent themselves as a man if, say, they got a phone call or something and they had a male voice. Is that still the same? Or has that changed? I think, I mean, I haven't seen that particular piece of research. But I think if you're looking at companies, I don't think it discriminates. So very often, to try to get into the company, you might do what they call business, email compromise, have an email that looks like it's from the HR department, the finance department, your boss, and they send it out in the hope that one person, just one person will think, Oh, I better pay that invoice, or I better, or I better respond to my boss, or better click on that link, my boss has sent me to just one person has to do that. And it's hard to say, at the moment, whether males or females are more likely to talk. I guess it would depend on what you're trying to do as well. Right? I mean, obviously, if you're trying to do something, I mean, I can't think off the top of my head, but it's like a credit card, credit crowd for fraud, kind of credit card fraud, that's actually quite hard to say. It's a good product of think about as well. But that was one of the examples where men men were more attacked than females. But, um, one of the things that you're talking about, so he said, banks tend to take on the risk, whereas in Australia, they don't necessarily take on the risk. If you don't do the bare minimum of keeping your account. Secure. Fraud. Detectives will take your computer and do an analysis of it. And then if you're responsible, you actually you take the cut that some of my friends have experienced that I think I mean, is that online if someone gets into your account and moves money around online? So yeah, yeah, that's yeah, I don't I think the bank would take responsibility for that if somebody is pretended stolen your identity and gone in, I don't I mean, that's something I was talking to one of the delegates yesterday at connect gov about, and he was saying, the big issue is, our customers, you know, our customers are a huge vulnerability for us. And the regulator, and the Singapore, consumer protection is certainly weaker here than in Australia, here in Singapore than in Australia. And, you know, he was saying that, you know, the regulator wouldn't allow them to make the customers accountable for fraud. I mean, you'd have to do something very, very blatant, I think they'd have to prove that your pin number polluted or you've done it intentionally, it'd be very difficult. I mean, you can't hold some old lady accountable. All right, for sorry to stereotype the gender. But most people aren't, aren't very technically savvy in the first place, you can't hold them accountable for, for somebody managing to get into their bank account and stealing money, you'd have to prove collusion, or intent of some sort. I mean, I know with credit cards, I've had a few issues just for physical credit cards here where somebody has run my credit card through, and I've had real trouble getting the money back. And the bank certainly has tried to suggest that I'd somehow been irresponsible in that occurring. But I think in the online world is very, very difficult indeed to, to put it onto the onto the customer. So one of the other issues with cybercrime was especially for the big organizations like the banks, is they would get an attack and they wouldn't necessarily communicate honestly, that what had happened because they didn't really want that attention. And of course, they can get huge fines from governments if the data is breached. But the other thing is, they weren't talking to each other so that they come in and attack one, then then attack the next one that attack the next one. But because they didn't talk that they weren't sharing information, it actually was making the situation worse, have they changed? And they started to talk to each other? You're asking a lot of questions we discussed, John, if you remember the conversations we're having and some of the panels, right, but this was one of the things that came up. So I know that Singapore, you know, the Singapore government is actually proactively looking at ways to make sure that this information is being shared, at least by industry. So when there is a an attack that hits one organization, other organizations are made aware of it. So this is actually one of the ways that the the the industry is starting to evolve to do that. Because yeah, you're right. It's, you know, they get a one bag, they do it to that one, then they go to another one, the same thing happens. So yeah, I think collaboration in that way and sharing threat information is, you know, a big a big issue today. And it's something that there's a whole bunch of organizations out there saying that we can work with you to enable that and support it and and the government agencies are working closely with industry on that at the moment. Be organizing, or the the conference, they were actually add on to it. And why why that kind of a meeting is so good, because it's a meeting of CIOs is that it kind of normalizes some of these things that people are embarrassed about. So because they realize that, oh, you're getting this problem, too, or were expecting the same kind of thing as well, we can talk more about these things. And so you can talk about it. It's just like the early days, I mean, used to be with with other kinds of personal attacks, that will be more embarrassing, people wouldn't talk about it. So you always felt that you were the only one that also is a significant part of it. So it's kind of linked to the to what Kathy was talking about. A couple of shows ago, you know, this this this thing about being able to just have those conversations to be authentic to to to discuss what is a common problem so that you can find a better solution? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a fair point. So there's a lot of attacks that will take place, and Steven Are you know, they really should share that information and collaborate for whatever reason, they'll keep quiet because there's also the legal risks. A lot of organizations want to investigate it, check the liability, check what the impact might be, on their reputation, do a detailed investigation of their tap to find out what if any data has leaked, and you won't necessarily want to go, Hey, I've just been attacked, and so on, and share that information with everybody until you've you've really done an in depth investigation. Although regulators are starting to say that if you have a breach, and you discover it, you've got to inform the regulator within 72 hours in a lot of jurisdictions, and is here in Singapore requires that, for example, the regulators are the attack police, are they? Well, they're well the regulator wants to make sure that you know something like this happens, obviously, the people that might be impacted by it are sufficiently well protected. So they want to make sure that you know that for example, if there has been attack and attack on a financial services organization that the financial services organization is doing it everything it can to say protect the data of its customers. Right. So and sort of like Singapore financial services hub, that's super important. A lot of other places, I don't think Australia is a strict by the way on notification. It's not as it's not as you know, the pressure is not as intense. But the financial services sector and in Singapore has a lot of pressure on it to do this. So when you hear about, you know, in America, some of my friends have had their identity stolen, and it takes them years and years and years to recover from that. And I haven't seen that same extent of that out out in other parts of the world. I mean, is it becoming more of an issue that you're if you if your data does, because I mean, you know, that this hotel, that chain that got attacked today that I heard about today, you know, they've got copies of your passport, copies of your credit card name, address everything, right? That's a lot of important information to be out there in the world. I mean, you can't it's and you can't, you have to trust these chains to protect that information. And if they've been attacked, it's a great, great point. I mean, I I was teaching, by the way at a university here. So ASIC, I taught the masters students, a cybersecurity course. And one of the questions I asked him at the beginning was I said, What is identity? Because back in the day, your identity, you know, throughout most of human existence, your identity was your family, your family name, your physical appearance, the town you lived in, and that was really it right. And just over the last 100 years or so, in fact, it's accelerated in the last 20 years, just think how many 20 or 30 years how many elements there are, how many identity attributes we have, right. And when you look at digital identity, a lot of those traditional forms, which might even just be, you know, you might see someone in your town and realize it's not them by the gate, for example, the way they walk, or those kinds of ways, I tend to find somebody have gone or even the tone of voice or the time of day, they're doing something. So So a whole new set of attributes have suddenly appeared a load of kinds of attributes that you can set up with digital identities that you can create different passwords and so on email addresses, you know, how varieties are getting somewhat distracted by the, the teeth up there, but we have different have different kinds of identity attributes. Now, what people what the bad actors want to do is steal as many of these as possible to create fake identities. Some of these fake identities might be what are known as synthetic identities, which is made or Frankenstein identities, which is made up of, say, your email address, Andrea, my mobile phone number, a part a couple of passwords of Joe's name right, possibly, yeah. And then that, that that is used to create some sort of false identity to set up, you know, bank accounts, or whatever it might be for the various purposes. But you're right. I know, in the US when people have issues with with identity theft, it's often a very big deal to to address it. But identity is a really big deal. Protecting that identity and even defining what it is is a big issue in the cybersecurity cybersecurity world. Make sure you guys, okay, got a couple of questions. What? So apart from identity theft, what would be your what would what would you say the big three trends that we kind of need to look out for? Well, I think okay, so the big one at the moment is we're being bombarded with ransomware. Right. So that's one that's that's probably I didn't see your tie example you gave Andrew but I know a lot of tie hospitals and schools have been hit with ransomware fairly recently over the last year or two. But ransomware is just becoming a bigger and bigger problem because it's easier and it's lucrative. So the risk of doing it, the risk reward ratio has benefits the attacker enormously so we're just seeing so many more ransomware attacks and organizations need to put plans in place to identify it as soon as it comes in. And they're, you know, there's technology you can use it can can potentially detect it has have backups in place. So as what the ransomware usually does, is it will it will find a way of encrypting your data so as you can't use it without paying the ransom and then be given a key to unlock that data. So other forms of protection you can use against that is to have backup that's immutable, it can't be touched the coming ransomware players often try and go for your backup as well but there are there's a you know, complex set of ways of dealing with it but we're gonna see more and more of this ransomware identity and access management. So, a huge one, such as finding just ways and you will see it when you deal with your with your with your banks more and more. So not just, you know, using biometrics to a greater degree and throwing passwords out the window just finding other ways of, of validating your identity When you have access, minimizing it, not allowing you to have access for too long. So if a bad actor does get in, there's a there's, there's less that they can actually do. So a lot of what people are doing with cybersecurity today to deal with the problems as accepting there will be a breach, right? This is an important concept to get across, accepting, there will be breaches, but just trying to make it as difficult as possible for them to do damage once they get in and making it minimal. So the banks will have calculations saying we accept there will be some breaches we accept, they'll be this amount of fraud, and we'll lose potentially this amount of money. But we're going to put these controls in place just to try to make sure that should someone get in, there's only so far they can get to because we'll have all kinds of AI and ML techniques, looking at the movement and what's going on in our systems and networks and minimizing what can be done and putting up red flags, if there's anything peculiar going on. What AML looks like machine learning, so I should log in too much. Ransomware access management, okay, so if you said one of the three things, all right, so I would say ransomware is a big deal. You know, tightly controlling identity and access management is another big one. And, and phishing is still huge. What is social engineering. So me basically going out and doing a bit of research on you, Tim, and then pretending to be an A your accountant, right, as a way of getting getting to you. So social engineering, turning into vishay, it could be voice or SMS, I try to get you through or WhatsApp I tried to get you through or traditional email approach. So that's still growing, that's social engineering, stroke, phishing is growing as a kind of way of getting in and launching other attacks. So I would say certainly ransomware, we'll see the scale, the number of ransomware attacks, and the size of them increasing, we'll see a lot more focus on identity on managing identities, and it's going to impact us as as regular ordinary mortals. You know, so those, and we'll see a lot more focus on, I guess, training and awareness to make people aware of these kinds of phishing attacks and what to look out for. I mean, I, myself and I, these phishing tests, and I always fall for one or two of them, you know, when they're a phishing touch you can do online. Yeah. So there's so many questions. So one of the projects that I remember doing with Experian was changing, changing regular behavior is an important part, right? for business and for individuals. So every Friday in the UK, when you bought a house every Friday, you transferred the money and pay for it. So basically, there were all these people out there with fake email addresses, getting in and getting that money. So a person's entire life saving would be transferred to buy a house, but it would never go to where it needed to go. So they basically lost everything. And it was a predictable behavior that, you know, the cyber criminals, man in the middle attack, that would be Yeah, right. But, um, besides cyber warfare is another thing, right? So a few weeks ago, the North Korea, one of the most senior North Korean Secret Service people was interviewed on the BBC. And, you know, he was talking about the technology infrastructure that North Korea has in place, and apparently, they're doing all sorts of spying and cyber warfare. And, you know, and who knows, is a true, isn't it? Do we know? Know what's going on on that side? Right? That's true. Yeah. If you're North Korea, we saw with the Sony attack in 2013, if you guys remember that, but they destroyed Sony pretty much, because that was definitely then the interview. Yeah, it was, it was it was, you know, the, unless you don't believe, you know, what, what is what has been but yeah, I mean, I had the motive. They went on about it, right? So there's no reason to think it was anybody else that did it right at the time. There's one big IT guy who pressed the wrong button that day and just said, yeah, it was them. Possibly, there's enough evidence to suggest that, you know, some so the US for example, right? Its military and economic and arguably political power, is, you know, kind of outstrips the power of China or Russia or North Korea. And then we talked a bit about authoritarian regimes and the central democratic world. And one of the ways that they can take on the United States and in a kind of asymmetric conflict is, is through, you know, cyberattacks, right? And they can find a way of really I mean, there was there's been some recent attacks for example, I don't know if you remember a few months ago in an oil pipeline, colonial colonial pipes or some critical infrastructure on a on a food processor as well. So the food supply chain these attackers were getting to and, and the United States I mean, they did say, I mean, I've no reason to disbelieve some of these guys, because they're fairly transparent about it anyway, when you can you can Look into it a lot of detail. But they did trace it to a nation, nation state actor, right, all of those attacks. And what we're seeing is that a place like North Korea, but China, Russia to Iran, and the West can do it as well, right? So Israel in the United States can do it the other way around. So it's a bit unfair to say it's just these guys. But these guys can have a bigger punch right? In the cyber world, and they could potentially have been in a kind of military conflict. That's like, Well, yeah, actually, that's arguable these days as well, but but they can have a, you know, quite a powerful impact just by cyber attacks and critical infrastructure or misinformation. So again, a lot of people believe that you know, what got Trump into power? Or was misinformation coming from a particular state. What caused Brexit to happen was misinformation from a particular country, what is making the COVID epidemic so much worse? There's misinformation from certain authoritarian regimes. They just want chaos. The they thrive in chaos, they thrive and be able to say, we're the only ones who can deal with this. Yeah. Yeah. It's such an important point. That's what it's why I was having an argument in an argument cuz I don't really argue on Twitter, but I said, we're already in world war three. We've been in World War Three for 20 years. And they're like, What the hell are you talking about? I'm like cyber, like, I don't have a look right. You know, and we're so sucked in by the storyline that we're fed, you know, and it's fabricated by people who are doing as you're saying, creating chaos. Right. And they're succeeding? I think it's because we don't, we can't understand why anyone would be motivated to do something like that. Because it's not necessarily like every time Russia's blamed, I don't necessarily think it's Putin in these guys. It but but but I do think it's a group or a group of really smart people that are sitting there having having a bit of fun, and we can't understand what's going on in their mind to do something like that. Like, why would you write but that's a good point. In Russia, a lot of the ransomware attacks that come out of Russia are are known groups, right? Or it's traced to a group. And they're outside of the long arm of the US law, they can't extradite them. And the common view is that, you know, Putin in the Russian authorities won't necessarily be sitting there saying, hey, guys do this ransomware attack, but they're not doing anything to stop it. Yeah. And they're not doing anything to help the American authorities when the American authorities are not just the American ones are wet, the Western world authorities, you know, say to Russia, hey, can you please do something to stop this? It's giving us a headache. So that's the sense of what's going on out of Russia to an extent and yes, there are. And then there's misinformation campaigns around election times, and votes and so on. And that's something that, you know, that I guess, during the cold war went on as well, but it wasn't as easy for them to do, right. They they used other means to try to spread to spread misinformation. Yeah, and China, North Korea, they kind of can take a whole of state approach to the activities that they get involved in, right, they can use all of the organizations in their countries to work with them on on their agenda, which the United States get a disadvantage that because quite often it's at loggerheads with, say, Facebook or Cisco or Microsoft, they're not part of government. The way say, I know you can say it, clearly. Now, it's very clear that Huawei despite denials as part of government in China. Yeah. Given the news recently. It's kind of team do you want to ask something? I was just gonna wrap it up, but you want to ask something? Well, well, okay, then my question would have to be scaled down. But my main My question was going to be okay, you said this ransomware access management, phishing being the three big things, and rather than leave everybody, you know, sort of scared Dark World? What, what are three things that corporates can do? Having heard this somebody sitting there going, Okay, well, yeah, we need to do something else, or medium businesses, what can they do? And what are three things that individuals can do? And doesn't have to be three? We don't have time, but But you know, I was gonna do the it's not it's not that scary. Again, as I said, to start with, it's to do with risk appetite, how much risk you're willing to bet, right? So some people may just say, Well, look, I'm fine with this. I'm willing to, I'm willing to just continue my life as normal. And I'll just wait until something happens. And I'll cross that bridge when it comes. But you know, there there are kind of hygiene practices that you need to think about that, for example, we talk about identity and access management. This principle, there's a principle people talk about in cybersecurity called least privilege. And what that means is you give the least access for the smallest amount of time to anyone who's accessing your resources. And that applies particularly to people with a lot of privileges like CEOs or heads of it, who for example, often can access all the systems and so on and that and the reason that's such a big Risk is when that hacker inevitably inevitably gets in. And they get the passwords and the credentials of the CEO or the or the IT admin people, they can move around freely. So what least privilege says as you just you've just really restrict those the access you gave. And that's quite a straightforward one to do. It doesn't cost a lot of money. And you also do very, very basic access controls that often are built in and are free with a lot of the software we use like MFA, right? multi factor authentication, which reduces the chances of, you know, of somebody getting through, you know, many times, right, so these are some, these are some kind of, you know, top of mind corporate approaches, training and education that can we talk about all the time, we just need to continue on these awareness campaigns, the younger generation are more aware. But we just need to continue with, you know, with these awareness campaigns, from a corporate perspective, as we move to cloud, a lot of people is rushing. And they think about security later. And they don't want to get too technical configure the crap the cloud properly misconfigured in a way that makes it more open for people to get into them when it was on premise, which is not supposed to be the case. Just knowing what your exposure is. Here's a nice little anecdote for you know, I spoke to somebody recently, who was telling me that his organization does these vulnerability assessments just very simple to try to identify what their vulnerabilities are. So this openness is something that's important here. And he says that the vulnerability assessment will come back from one country saying, Hey, we've got these vulnerabilities, and it will come back from another countries, several countries, or we have none. And he doesn't believe it, he says they're doing that just because they don't want the extra work. And they don't want to be blamed. They don't want to be blamed for that vulnerability. So there's big issues around visibility as well. Right. And this is at a corporate level. I mean, I could go on to a whole bunch of other ones. But those are some of the some of the really, really big ones at a corporate level. So that's in the same company, but in different countries. Yeah, but it could be in the same company wouldn't doesn't matter. I mean, the point he's making is that you don't necessarily get the truth, right? Yeah, you ask someone to go and do something? How do you know, right? And often people have other motives, they might think, well, if I admit to this vulnerability, I'm gonna be working, you know, 16 hour days for the next two years, right? So maybe I just cover it up and get another job somewhere? Or maybe I, you know, or somebody might be worried that they'll be blamed for it. But as individuals, what's the what's what's the essentials? I mean, imagine everybody's, I'm imagining everybody's got different passwords for different logins and using those sorts of things. But as individuals try to, I mean, where you can, and you can, increasingly, you probably see your offer to use to FA two factor authentication wherever you can use a VPN from home. I mean, again, VPNs are not perfectly safe, but it's safer than not using money. I mean, these are very kind of straightforward things to do. They don't cost a lot of money. And they have other benefits. Like, you can watch the BBC, from Singapore and BBC iPlayer. And the likes, you know, so those are two two key ones, I'd say. And just, you know, look when you get an email, I mean, I'm super cautious about that. I'm sure a lot of people are but you know, just look at who it's coming from, check the address, look for anything fishy. If there's, if it's demanding something urgently, there's something fishy about it just just don't even respond, just delete it. And then what about would it be what about? What about securing your own data? Right? So one of the one of the things that I'm constantly just blown away by, you know, when Cambridge analytic of that whole scandal broke, the number one thing was, we're all giving away our own data. So freely, right? And so every time one of these surveys come up, what what color moody you're in today, oh, you're red, which means that you're passionate or whatever. And I'm like, and every time people share them, I'm like, stop giving your data away. So this is this is, this is your value? Why are you giving it away to everyone without thought, and then you expose everyone in your network to the to this thing? I don't think that's a huge priority for individuals. But I think that, you know, if it's in the Google Cloud, it's encrypted at rest, right. So there's this idea of data at rest. They were you know, Joe, probably, this has been talked about in the last couple of days data at rest data and motion data in use. The easiest thing to do is have your data at rest encrypted, if you keep stuff in Google Cloud that's automatically encrypted. Right? So it's hard for somebody to decrypt your data at rest sitting there on your hard drive. That's a different issue. I know that Microsoft, there's some functionality Microsoft offers. I think Apple as well enables you to encrypt local files as well, but I have a feeling you have to pay for some of those services. Yeah. So I just I just I just all the valuable stuff I just keep in in the cloud, I don't have in my local device. Because I know it's encrypted. I know that I mean, I'm a small business. So I, you know, I know that, that those guys have got better security practices and policies than than I have in my on the device that I'm working with. And it's in their interest to protect your data, right, because if they don't, they're gonna lose their customer base. So by and large, best of breed approach to cybersecurity, those big cloud guys. So this, this, to me sounds like I mean, it's when when Apple did their iOS 14, we're on 15. Already, when I as they did their iOS 14, shift, it was the whole thing was about privacy. And it was about a lot of advertisers lost their links to people because of it. All the cookie, the play with cookies changed, and privacy became a competitive issue in Apple's eyes anyway, that that it just smelled to me like this is if Apple is doing this so overtly from a privacy perspective in selling their products. And I hadn't heard the same sort of rhetoric from all the other organizations, as big as when Apple did that. The iOS 14 It just said to me that that, that privacy is going to be a brand war on privacy at some point. Well, to the point, there's value in your data. And, and the likes of Apple and Google, obviously, that some of these companies were maybe not Apple so much, but certainly Facebook and Google have been harvesting and monetizing your data for years, but there's value in your data, and if it's just them, and you know, typically people understand but I mean, not everybody, but we kind of know what Google and Facebook do with our data. But what they also want these organizations also realize is that bad actors are looking to steal your data and use it for a variety of reasons, some of which I've described earlier, together fake identities that they can then use or just to sell it on right on the in the dark web has been the the main meaning basically has been the creation of the market, and the market is there, in terms of what you can do with this information. And also the ability to pay for it now, because of all the you know, because of because of the way crypto works and defy and how it's less and less and less traceable, you can cause the damage, you can cause the harm that requires economic value to solve it. And then you've got the means to solve it, as well. So because of that, it's really become a point where, I mean, I've seen I've seen attacks where they automate the process as well as re of churning back the data to get new to get new data. You know, I on Facebook, what a lot of these cyber threats on on Facebook are people taking your information, sending you messages so they can get information about your friends. And then from that they get a lead generation kind of thing, where out of that process, they actually create new leads, and then they take a break from there. So it's quite a, it's become it's very interesting. It's it's people tend to look at the cyber thing, and over complicating, but what they're really looking for in the end is human weakness, right? They just coming back to it coming back to trying to find a way for you to say hello to me, because I Oh, by the way, Tim said something, and he Oh, Tim, I loved him, you know, and then you and then you're off to the races. But but but don't you think that Tim Cook has sort of you know, it's been a couple of years now he's been, he's been publicly going up against Zuckerberg and Facebook. And I think, you know, this recent announcement was that they were pushing Facebook to change their ways change. It didn't change enough. And so, you know, they've taken a hard line, which is going to have a big impact on the this last quarter. It didn't impact Facebook advertising revenue, but it's expected to in the next quarter. So it's a big deal. But I think it just comes down to a fundamental disagreement with how Facebook has been running its business, and the impact it's having on society. And this is Apple's way of saying it's a middle finger basically said you haven't we've told you to sort it out, you haven't sorted it out. So we're, we're gonna do this to you. So it's a culture war. You know, I think what Apple's doing is really just coming up with an innovative commercial way to talk about something, that's all it is, I don't think they really, really really, you know, trying to stop that because, I mean, that exchange of privacy to get all the services that you have elsewhere on the net. I mean, you know, I don't know I I think it's just a great marketing ploy. It's to it's to, it's to strengthen up the walls around cult of Apple and you know, and that's basically because I think you still need that accent that they got to become creative. ways to do that. I mean, Apple, Apple is intrusive, but they do it in the in the technically correct way. Right. They they figure ways to scan your information. But they do it in a way where it's, it's a machine that's doing it for them. It doesn't come on to the cloud, but it's still based on a data set, which which, you know, I guess they would have some sort of influence on, they could accidentally be flagged you as a pedophile, right. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's on purpose, somebody could have purpose, right, which is, yeah, which is one of the scary things about about data, and how it can be used, as, you know, identity attributes, as well as attributes associated with your identity. To any job, any final words, and we'll jump into the next bit. I think yeah, I mean, I mean, I guess, back to the kind of point, I mean, I think the reality, people need to understand a bit like COVID. It's a bit like a COVID analogy, and the, the position that the Singapore government and many governments around the world are now taking, which is to say, look, we cannot eliminate it, it's going to come and hit us. But we need a bunch of, you know, controls, just to try to make sure that the damage that it causes is containable. And I think similarly in the cybersecurity world, you know, don't don't lie awake all night worrying about, you know, a breach getting to you, it's just a case of should that happen. As an organization, certainly as a company, minimizing the damage that that can potentially cause and I guess, as an individual as well, if you've encrypted your data, and you get to FA and so on, there's probably a limit to the damage that that an intruder, malicious hacker can cause. So I think it's just that acknowledgement that it's gonna happen, just make it hard for them as and when it does. And look out for the misinformation campaigns that are out there to consciously, you know, and question yourself as well. I mean, to what extent have you as an individual, but subject to misinformation? I mean, I know with a couple of times, I've fallen for some of it in the past. Yeah. Yeah. A big tree being chopped down. That was one of my Well, I didn't double check that. I try. I try and make sure that if it's a breaking news item, it's got to appear in at least three credible sources before it's breaking news. That's kind of my kind of, alright, well, what other news has captured your attention? Just one or two? Funny, quirky? Actually, can I just ask one last little tiny question for Andrew. And for everybody listening. Hey, Google, are you listening right now? Yeah. Okay, Google stop. I just turned mine off before I said it. Otherwise, I'd be quiet. What are your thoughts on these in home listening devices? Well, again, I mean, that's expanding the attack surface again. So the more of these devices you have like that, I mean, they there will be passwords that most people aren't using for them, they will be hackable. So yeah, they're just they're just extending that that threat environment. So I've got 100. Having said that the functionality of I mean, I'm not paranoid, I haven't done not too paranoid about them yet. Maybe I should be given that I'm in cybersecurity. But it's the same with your washing machine, your microwave and lots of devices that are programmable, you know, they're all hackable. So you're never going to be 100%. I wouldn't worry too much about it right now. Businesses that are businesses really have to worry a lot more about these things at the moment. Have you got one of these devices? Andy? I have Yeah, I have you, okay. I just, I just refuse. I just refuse to have them. I just like the idea that there's a machine that can listen to every single conversation, whether it's for music, the Google ones for music, it's it's connected to Spotify, and the kids use it. They just say whatever they want to listen to. It plays or they ask at the time of asking general knowledge question. Yep. What? questions that ask it right. So ask it questions. They can again, they're kind of used to it. Yeah. Existence and all their friends have got such devices. So yeah, they use it more than I use it. I'll use it very occasionally for museums about it. So as IoT sort of progresses, which is presumably where Metaverse will also have a big play, I would have thought where everything is connected to IoT, Internet of Things, internet of things. So the one I like the example I like is you're driving along in your car, your car realizes it's time for service, it checks your calendar, it makes a booking with the service station to booking your service at a time and notifies this amount it makes the appointment notifications are in the calendar and you didn't have to do anything you just have to tell up on that date, where the appointment made because everything's done for you, it's a potential disaster. From a cybersecurity perspective, this whole operational technology piece, you know, all these machines becoming, converging with information technology is a potential nightmare. So it so that means, again, I'm sorry, I shouldn't be, I shouldn't be so dramatic, but it just again creates a huge opportunities for hackers who are looking to do more damage, you just need to build again, it's risk management, you just need to build in more checks and balances, like you're an airline pilot, you know, for you to make a mistake that might cause that plane to crash, you have to make about 15 mistakes on the truck. Right, one after the other. Yeah, there's all kinds of checks and balances to stop that from happening. Yeah, I think something similar will have to happen to cars as well, right? Or else, you know, potentially we're in trouble. Yeah. Or, or there's Oh, then that becomes the opportunity for the trusted brand, to have a sort of end to end, seamless. So is that goal, which I would happily, and it might be something that that Facebook have decided that they need to play in? And therefore, because nobody trusts Facebook, they need to change their brand? I mean, yeah, it just sounds to me like it, it basically we're, we're heading into a more a future fraught with more opportunities for technological misuse, and therefore trust becomes a huge commodity and a huge market differentiator between branches. Yeah, yep. And then as a result, Apple's already making an early play into that in mature markets. So you go to Indonesia or the Philippines, they don't have any qualms about using Facebook as the information source. Yeah, yeah. I guess it comes down to that what I'm generalizing are the majority, the vast majority of the population, I'm sure there's easy the Philippines that do. But it's also that there's also this huge unbanked segment who aren't on Apple phones, because you need a credit card to set up an Apple phone account. You know, and so, you know, there's, there's this huge community still of unbanked people, not as many as they used to be. They've sort of worked out how to get data points for them mobile phones, typically. But um, yeah. Yeah. So we got these tipping points coming up, so maybe we won't have to worry about any of it. doom and gloom. But these emerging markets are Android territory anyway, they know Apple. Yeah, exactly. So so. So we need to be wary when we when we fork out $20 for the for the latest piece of technological gadgetry versus the $100 version? Not that it's about the dollars necessarily, but it's about who you trust that made it. I think you're right. I think the the whoever, yeah, whoever makes it well, over time, start building in more security features as people clearly get more concerned about it. Yeah, interesting. But it also create more divisions. If if you know, these sort of closed loops that are going to be becoming stronger closed loops as we move forward. Obviously, Facebook's meta versus all encompassing. But then if you think about Apple, if they keep keep the group smaller, but the disease other huge part of the global population that will be sitting on another platform, which can do similar things, but it's not the same Is that Is that something that we should be? Yes, counting a lot. Is that something that we should be concerned about? Yeah, I think I think in the Anglosphere we ignore the rest of the world too much and what's going on in the rest of it? It's, you know, everyone's aware of what's happening in the English speaking world. So you know, so everyone in England knows a bit about Australia and America and America and so on in Singapore. You know, I guess in Singapore actually, though, they've got more of a handle on actually China to be fair, right? China and Taiwan people have a bit of an understanding of in Singapore as well as the West, right? Yeah. But you know, but I think you've got this you've got this world with, you know, very different different behaviors, different technology usage patterns. And you know, as I mentioned, different different ways they use social media. I mean, Twitter in Indonesia was very widely used not for business, but for people to communicate, share information, share personal information, you know, Facebook's you know, the platform for information down there, and so on. It's just different news. And we don't think about it as much we're just very much focused on the English language side of things on social media, English language misinformation on social media. Yeah. And it's a it's it's it's not something I think we pay enough attention to at all I mean, I, I come across this stuff, incidentally, just having chats with people in those countries and they'll say something. Where'd you get that information from? And like delete my MySpace account? I don't think I'll ever get rid of mine. It's Microsoft had pretty good a folder? I don't know. I think I you know, it's pretty trusted. From a security perspective. It's not they're not invincible nobody is but it's pretty trusted Microsoft, Microsoft or MySpace, Microsoft, so anything under the Microsoft brand as far as the security and infrastructure guys, right? I don't think so. So I know that a corporate perspective, there's a lot of issues around active directory for it. Yeah, there's a lot of issues, a lot of a lot of issues around Microsoft software is that fault because they've got to do, there's a trade off you see where Microsoft between things but easy to use and security. So teams, for example, anyone can set up private groups without it, seeing it, for example, you can get out you can bring outside people in, there's all kinds of potential for security breaches with their collaboration tools. And again, from their perspective, they're thinking they want, they're making it usable, right. So it's a bit unfair to, to point fingers at them over that. Because there might be easier to use, right. And this is the trade off between security and usability that you've always got to play. If you have too many security controls, and then whatever you're offering can become unusable. But Active Directory, which is where, you know, credential set is a target for all for, for hackers, when they get into systems. And when I say as well, passwords nikal set and it's and it's and it's it gets hacked very frequently. Right. And again, you can't say it's Microsoft's fault. You know, the perhaps the cyber hygiene and the organization is not what it should be. But a lot of you talk to a lot of cybersecurity professionals and they'll say that, you know, a lot of the tools they've got with a zero now, for example, a great you know, top notch but, but a lot of cybersecurity professionals will say certainly out of directory and teams, some others are gonna name too many products, like, you know, they have some concerns with the management of Yeah, right. Okay. Put a mildly and politely Yeah. So I don't certainly among cybersecurity professionals, they do not have a reputation of being aligned to secure practices. Right. Just online, the second deepest conversation I've had on cybersecurity, second deepest, what was the what was the deepest, the deepest one was in a, it was in a business lounge. I think it was in either Hong Kong or Finland. And I was chatting to this really nice guy and his and his friend or his colleague, and we're chatting for ages and at the end, were having a laugh and talking about nonsense or whatever it was. And at the end, he gave me his card and it was Eugene Kaspersky. Oh, wow. Oh, it was like cool. And he got it and he just said, you know, just in case I was like, great. So your reaction to Eugene Kaspersky expose whatever it is is obviously obviously means something that I'm oblivious to his brand his brand is massive in the size of and he's impressed he's obviously impressive. Alright, come on. We're coming. We're coming up to overtime. One pay sense news news that caught your attention beyond what we've already talked about. Well, I was listening to something called shortwave which is a short form science program on NPR and apparently spiders a scared of spiders it was an accidental research that they found and they realized that spite was we can think of spiders as as prey we think of them as predators right? But even amongst themselves I mean if you if you if you if you if you catch two spiders and you put them together you come back later and you find one spider it's because well one probably have better than the other. And yeah, so that's a spiders actually scared of spiders and certain features make spiders scarier to spiders and it has mostly to do with large eyes. Wow. Nice. Interesting tip shows your pupils. Oh, pass now and if you what else told me news, revise it. Yeah, it is news for a lot of people. It's very specific. But you know, I was just interested in Manchester United losing five nil at home to Liverpool if anyone was aware of that. Just you know what else going on there? No, I'm a Sheffield United supporter in a minute dismal team, but I'm just interested in the just the EPL generally and I'm just I was playing. Yeah, I'm a Manchester United supporter and I watch that game. I went to bed at halftime. Yeah, but it's big news right? It's big news from an EPL perspective. So that is a home and I don't think they've lost to that to that degree for some time certainly not against Liverpool for many years if at all, and so you just start questioning it you know, what is it is it the is it the manager I'm pretty sure soon that they're going to assault Shah who was kind of here for Man United fans. It's Is it the manager is having Rinaldo Baca problem is all about Ronaldo. I think it's a bit of a perfect storm. This may not interest everybody, but I'm happy to have a big chat with you about it. But I think it's a perfect storm. I think Ronaldo is upset the balance because you need to build the team around him. And it hasn't been built around him. And he only is an inexperienced manager with a huge team. But he knows the Manchester United Way. And so as a result, he's got the culture operating in Manchester United Way which the other elite managers couldn't do because they were they were operating in their own way. And so it changed a few things, but he can't get them to that next level that elite manager could. So finding that person's interesting, but then there's been commentary about other teams also losing five nil in and I think it was livable talking about No, it was Gary Neville talking about how he played in a five mill losing team. It was a way one year where they had a one door or the one of the following years, I think so. They're saying it's a blip. But these days because of social media. The blip is very noisy. Is that Gary Neville on Instagram? Yeah, I think so. Yes. No, I watch his commentary occasionally on Instagram. Yeah. Jamie Carragher, right, well, Gary Neville, who's the one that's coaching? Anyway, we're possibly going the women's team. Well, I'm on the verge of going into screensaver mode. I feel like we might be losing people this one but yeah, it's getting people people very excited. Interested in this conversation. Somebody gets somebody hacked somebody quickly. Oh, people find talking about the pill a lot more interesting than cybersecurity. Well, it is an escape, isn't it? Yeah, and yeah. All right. Tim, do you have a news one? Oh, spanks was my news. Oh, yeah. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, you did. Alright. So my name is Nicholas Kristof, who's a columnist for the New York Times. He wrote a book with his wife show called Half the Sky. Anyway, he's brilliant. He's, yeah, he's been. He's been on the frontlines covering genocide. You name it. For few decades. Anyway, he has resigned from the New York Times. Yeah. Brilliant. It's a really great book. He's resigned from the New York Times. And he's running for governor of Oregon, which I think is absolutely awesome. And it's it's a real, he's sick of saying so much. Sorrow and horror. I'd say he's, and then he started coming back and saying, saying it himself. He's been running some columns, which has been talking about things like people who went to school with have died of overdoses, and they're homeless. And he just yeah, he just said enough. And he said, right, that's it. Um, I'm going going to see if I can actually do something about it. So although there wasn't really, yeah. Alright, and then the final bit, what's keeping you distracted at the moment? This is always a good one. You mean, what do you mean literally at the moment, just in your in your mind thoughts? What do you want? Well, clean, clean version? None of that. It's like what are you watching on TV? What movies you gotta go see on Netflix binge watching. Political because I I'm, I'm obsessed with what's going on in the US with the Republican Party, and that the way they appear to be rejecting democracy. And it's quite scary, because I think if the US goes, then we're all in trouble. Yeah. Again, that's just my kind of view. And I've been tracking. You know, what one of the techniques, there's a whole bunch of techniques. We could spend a long time talking about this, but so I'm watching the Virginia governor. Election Race, and what they're identifying as a lot of Democrats think the beast has been slayed as in Trump's out and they just think they're just not that motivated by politics and the Biden administration isn't particularly dynamic or interesting. So a lot of them are just kind of tuning out altogether some mobilizing them to vote is very difficult, but what Trump is doing and the Trump's about the Trump supporters just keeping that base angry all the time. And, you know, just keeping I mean, he did actually say they shouldn't vote at all, which is perhaps a good thing, but yeah, they're angry. Right, you're either engaged and angry in a way that the who is still believed the election was so on and so on and, and the support that he's getting among Republicans and in the Republican Party is increasing, not decreasing. And his way of thinking and I'm just watching that be quite honest and horror, because of the narratives that are coming out being more widely believed, you know, like, you know, it was anti fire and the FBI that did January the sixth, that kind of narrative just being believed those crazy conspiracy theories just being believed by a very large proportion of people and some of those people, you know, presumably reasonably intelligent. So you escaped by going into American politics. Well, should I shouldn't I watch? I shouldn't do it. I really shouldn't. I should. I mean, I tried to Switch games, but I found that just too dark and distressing. I, ballistics, I walked past my wife, watching squid games, I went, what then she goes, could give you a bah, bah, bah, bah, blah. And I looked at it for about two minutes and went, I think I know the entire show. And I, yep, which is effectively Arnold Schwarzenegger, Arnold Schwarzenegger movies from the 80s. But just sit in Korea Running Man was exactly that. Right. Hunger, Hunger Games a little bit. But Hunger Games? It's a bit like, right. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, basically, that the end of democracy as we know it is slightly less disturbing than squid game. But you can say why. And you know, I've been friends for so long. Our pleasure, ease that stuff, reading that stuff. That's why That's why we've been able to have so many great chats, but I'm paying attention to probably not as deeply as you, Andy. But there's just some recent stuff coming out around it as well. And you can't take your eye off the ball. The other one that I'm I'm fixated on is what's going on in the South China Sea and with Taiwan as well, because I don't get a lot of coverage. So you're getting these big flotilla as you're getting these massive aircraft carrier fleets actually stopping in Singapore, and just hanging around off the Philippine Sea. Just saying to China, come on over go everything, you're hard enough. And more or less, right or wrong, and you're in trouble kind of thing. And we're taking this seriously, right, rather than, you know, as an argument that they went too easy on their claims in the South China Sea for a period of time. And similarly, you know, around Taiwan, so a lot of them have been posturing around Taiwan, but there's a lot of hot military activity going on as well. I'm gonna get it's not the most light and easy readings, but it's something that I've been I've been tracking. Yeah, I mean, they're not that big. Yeah, they've had they had that big British aircraft carrier come through here recently. The Queen Elizabeth. Yeah. The one. So it's always it's always Singapore's position on it's interesting. You know, I mean, Joe's probably got more of a view on this than me. But you know, where does Singapore sit and all this because they're doing all these exercises with these Americans and the British and, you know, the Western powers as they come through. But at the same time, they're keen to stay on the right side of China. So it's a difficult balancing act. Yeah, the dance in Asia is interesting to watch. Anyway, look, we're we're coming up to two hours. So you guys are right, if we just wrap up now, unless you've got something incredible to offer, from a distraction point of view. And Andy, come and join us again. Because I know that you're really good. Like, I know that you're really passionate about the news as well. And we can sort of talk about other things when we have a good conversation about what's going on in China and bring some awareness. We've been talking about some of the stuff I think it was just last week. You know, it feels like John is closing off to me. And I think we should be, we should be paying attention to what's going on. We should all of us. But thank you so much for coming. It's just really fantastic to hear your point of view. And I always enjoy a good chat. We'll all download this and upload this on to uncommon courage, the podcast if you want to listen to it as an audio. But otherwise, we'll see you next week. And in the next couple of weeks, we're probably probably going to be focused on cop 26. So I'll be sharing a lot about that. But that's what's coming up. And let's hope that the leaders of our world are smart enough to understand that the time to act is now. So thanks for being here, guys. Thanks for having me. I've loved it today. It's been great talking with you all. Hey, nice to have you here. Andrew. It's been a nice chat until you brought up the five nil bit but everything else has been great. What's gonna lighten things up a bit then when I did that cloud game. Remember, if things get too serious, I'll always remember we can think about the end of the month. See as we know it out over the next couple of weeks I'll be I've got other other things that I must be at but I look forward to joining everybody again after that. Alright guys, maybe you can come back next weekend when we need an extra like alright just just let me know anytime. Go alright say guys cheers guys bye bye