Such a beautiful conversation with two very dear men in my life, Kevin Cottam and Tim Hamons. I’ve been privileged to know both of these men for nearly a decade, and every time we talk, we go deep.
From Kevin, digging into why The Nomadic Mindset is the way to a better future – because it’s an expansion of our mind, and how we get in alignment with all life on earth. And Tim, a visual facilitation expert, who draws to get to the deeper messages within. Tim recently attended an event on Trauma and I wanted to hear his key take-aways from this, as well as combining insights from both together.
The goal of Uncommon Courage is to have courageous conversations about the issues that we need to be thinking about, and finding a pathway out of the challenges we face. Because, as Kevin regularly shares….
“We are migrating. Where we were is not where we are. We are evolving.” Benson Muntere, Maasai Warrior, Kenya.
The three of us see this time as a wonderful opportunity for humanity to grow, evolve, and build something better and more beautiful for all life on earth. In balance with life and in balance within ourselves. That is the combination we very much need, and we can achieve it, together.
To get in touch with us, here’s some links to help
His Website https://thenomadicmindset.com/
His Book The Nomadic Mindset: Never Settle...for Too Long https://www.amazon.com/Nomadic-Mindset-Never-Settle-Long/dp/9811178224/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=kevin+cottam&qid=1634621912&sr=8-1
The Nomadic Mindset on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/nomadicmindset
His Website https://www.artofawakeningasia.com/
His book The World of Visual Facilitation: Unlock your Power to Connect People & Ideas https://www.amazon.com/World-Visual-Facilitation-Unlock-Connect-ebook/dp/B0867SNG2C/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=tim+Hamons&qid=1634621767&sr=8-2
Art of Awakening on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/Artofawakening
My book Uncommon Courage, An Invitation https://www.amazon.com/Uncommon-Courage-invitation-Andrea-Edwards/dp/1737294400/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1634622315&sr=8-1
And my Facebook Group Uncommon Courage https://www.facebook.com/groups/442905877003333
Hi, it's Andrea Edwards and welcome to uncommon courage. The goal of this podcast is to have the conversations that we need to be having as members of the human collective. Today I'm going to introduce you to two very beautiful men in my life, Kevin cotton, the global Nomad, and Tim Hammonds, whose company is art of awakening. I love the energy of these podcasts is very calm. So sit back in and enjoy. Alright, I am so happy to welcome two very, very special friends, Kevin and Tim, you're both beautiful men. And I know that they're going to share a lot of wisdom today, which is why I wanted us to come together and have this conversation. And we're not sure what it's going to be called yet, but we will get there. So welcome, Kevin. Hello, Andrea, my dear one. I mean, I must say that I'm really grateful to be here with you. And also with Tim. It's always special being in the community of you and your soul. Simply because you have great wisdom, you have great thoughts for the world. And which brings me to the Nomad which lives within you. And so who am I my name is Kevin Cottam, as we have been said, and I'm a global Nomad. I'm a leadership coach, and also a speaker and an author. And the book that I've authored recently is called the nomadic mindset never settle for too long. And my solution for in many ways for the world is to become much more nomadic in our thinking. And that I believe is a way for us to move forward through sustainability. And also for us to live in a much more harmonious life, because the old industrialized and agriculturalists thinking has not worked. Well, it has worked for a certain part of it, but it's not working. Now we need something new. So what is this nomadic mindset is holistic it is a sustainable path to the future. It's disruptive, it's absolutely disruptive to anybody that is out there, simply because it is all bringing what COVID has shared, and what organizations are talking about community collaboration, agility, adaptability, flexibility, all of these things are the paths and behaviors of what is the nomadic mindset. And so yeah, that's what I talked about. And that's what I am about. And I'm really grateful for your experience. Also, Andrea, and your understanding of what that is, as well. So yeah, there we are. You're very card. Wasn't expecting that now Tim, the pressures on you, of course, say nice things about me to Tim, again, another beautiful soul. So welcome. Do you want to just give everyone just a sort of a quick overview of what you do in your special magic? Thanks, Andrea. Thanks for inviting me to this conversation. And thanks, also, Kevin. I'm Tim I, I'm a visual storyteller, visual facilitator. And what that means is we sit with groups, and we help them to draw out their story, their metaphor, and make sense through visuals and through maps and diagrams. And what I love about that is because we get to sit in the space between what is now and what is becoming what is, you know, current or problem and what is solution or future. And drawing and visualizing is a great way to access those two worlds into become a bridge. So and that's what I love and and we get a support groups to take that little bit of leap of faith, so to speak, and use drawing for that. So we're, we're often drawing in strategy meetings, or change conversations or brainstorming, or maybe it's a commercial conversation, a presentation. And what I also enjoy doing is speaking and teaching about this to others, how to use this skill to support, you know, creative thinking, or, you know, innovative mindset, creative skills for solutioning, collaborating, and different ways. So I've been doing a number of talks throughout pandemic as well to sort of access and deconstruct this skill and how to make it more accessible to different groups and different needs. And to help also personally bridge some of those gaps in ourselves between what we know and what we don't know, which is kind of one of the themes of this pandemic is everything is in such a change. And there's such an unknowing, and how do we let go, and so that we can reimagine. So that's a little bit about what I do. But in a practical sense, we're drawing pictures A lot of times, to support groups to, you know, to find meaning through those pictures, because pictures and stories is what our brain most loves, at what activates our imagination, helps us to work through some of the uncertainty and reimagine what's possible. And I love that the opportunity to do work with you as well Andrea in the love and the joy and the bright spark that you bring to everything that you get to be a part of and being a very active and compassionate voice for change on the planet and interpersonally I'm grateful for that. So Tim did the cartoons for my book, and I couldn't ask anyone else So I've worked with him for a long, long time. And I've, you know, I was thinking how long I've known you guys, it's that we're coming up to nearly a decade. And then amazing, I know. gray hairs are coming through that type anyway. So you know, we're all about creating positive change and making and creating positive ripples in the world, the three of us, that's what we do, that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to get a message of hope out into the world, and especially in this time, where I feel that so many people have lost hope. And I haven't lost hope. Because I know, you know, people say, well, there's life, there's hope. And someone said that recently, and it's something I've been sort of sitting on for a long time, where there's life, there's hope. And if we catastrophize our future, we can hold on to hope. And we know that things are gonna get worse, but they don't have to be as bad as the worst scenarios. And it's up to all of us to make sure that that doesn't happen. So to me, that's hope. So we just need enough of us to go, alright, let's make sure it doesn't happen. But Kevin, the nomadic mindset, right, I'd love you to just sort of give people an essence of what you know, to me, the ancient wisdom, indigenous communities around the world have been given their land back there, finally, something to listen to them around things like land management. So the movement has begun, it needs to move faster. And I don't know if you saw in Australia, Daintree is being given back to its original owners. There's more in America, there's more of the indigenous people being involved in conversations around maintaining the forests. So we are seeing a very, very slow movement, but give us a sense of you know, what it is because to me, you know, it's also open mind closed mind, fixed mind, you know, flexible mind, it's, it's all those things as well, but you want to give us an overview. I would like to share with the that I think that in actual fact, what's happened is that over the years, we've become very narrow in our thinking, which means that we've constructed our minds so that we don't think in a very sort of expanded way. And so what I have found from when I spent time with nomadic cultures, which were in Mongolia, and the Messiah in Kenya, Berbers in the Sahara, and also in Namibia, is that, when you observe them, the people and the tribes, is that they have this very wide thinking. They don't think in a very sort of narrow because they are not constricted by the education that we've had a lot of construction of, you must do it this way. And also, it's leading towards this industrialized thinking, which takes away the creativity of individuals ultimately. So what it is is his expansive mind, it looks at the expansion, first of all width. So looking at all possibilities within a sphere, or in a space, as you talk about is that what are the possibilities that we can think about for our lives, for example? Or how, what are the possibilities that we look like on a project? For example, what does it look like? Tim talked about reimagining, I would suggest that this is about not necessarily reimagining. But it's new imagining is about finding the newness, and it's not just about seeing what is the old, but what is the new that we can put into this space of thinking and doing and being for no end. So if we take ourselves individually, it is truly about finding that whole ism within us. It is about finding the width and the expansion that we can be. So you know, if you think about taking an elastic band and elastic band, you can pull out and let go. And that is how we are do we're not just stuck in one place. We are these elastic bands that can move back and forth, which is the glory of being a human being. And so therefore, when you talk about the future, and we talk about the catastrophize ation of things and hope is that the nomadic mindset gives hope. Why does it give hope? Because it's a positive mindset. It is a mindset that looks at all possibilities our past and gains from the negative of this catastrophes and go, what is that? Why are we having this problem with the climate? What is it? They have answers? Why do they have answers? The indigenous people, they have answers because they're the most interconnected beings on planet. Why? Because they're all about survival. That is their existence, but they are connected to the land, they're connected to the animals, they're connected to the insects, they're connected to the climate. They believe that everything is interconnected, where we have separated everything and made it very difficult to reconnect. And by reaching out to nomadic cultures, they are able to, in many ways predict, for example, what is happening with the weather, predict what is happening with the animals predict the movement, we need to harness and have chats with them and spend time with how can they find solutions for what is the challenge today because they see this the challenges and they're able to think in a very different mindset than we are because we're trying to put for example, creativity flexibility, adaptability into An old mindset. And you cannot put that into an old mindset because then you put it into a box of that mindset. And it has restrictions already. We need to be able to let go of that box and go, Oh, what is this? What is this creativity? What is this happening with climate change? How can we find this from a very different way of thinking, which is difficult, because we are hardwired, however, it's possible, we just need to think and ask questions in a different way. You know, given every time you share your wisdom of nomadic mindset with me, I hear something different. And I hear more every time it's beautiful. I love it. For the cynics out there who's sitting well, you say that they've got this incredible mindset, and it's very open, but they live smaller lives. And they haven't achieved much achieved much right, which is old thinking. But the concept of being in alignment with everything that matters, you know, all life on Earth, weather events, everything. That's the fundamental necessity for all of us. And we put ourselves on top of it all, and we took ourselves out of the circle of life. I mean, you know, when you ask nomadic cultures, you know, how do you know when to move on? How do you need to know to migrate? They say, well, we'll watch the animals of our watch nature, it will tell us what to do. Whereas we have to force the answer. They don't, they unnaturally watch it, because they say that it will share us with us. And the nomadic mindset is very connected to nature. It is very much about nature. And it not only the nature of us as actually human beings, but our nature, intrinsically and extrinsically. And also the nature of our organizations, what is that nature, if we start to look at things from a holistic natural point of view, you'll start to see the harmony, which is in nature, it doesn't confuse things with each other. If you look at all of the different species, they're all connected and diverse, and they all living together. That is our lives. But we have sadly, deconstructed that those brown people, those Chinese, those, those, those are different than the white. Yes, we're all different, because we have different ways skin, but it the whole of us, as humanity, when I listened to you is I think we look back and hold on too much, right, which is what you were saying as well, didn't Tim jump in as well. But one of the things that I keep sort of thinking about is, we need to move to a whole new form of politics, we need a whole new form of economy. I mean, we basically need to redesign it all. And I'd like to take human suffering out of the mix of what we design as much as possible, because we live in a in a world that is built on the backs of other people's suffering, and will stand up and will rage about injustices, but we'll still buy clothes at a fast fashion shop that's destroying the environment, and is also with women making those garments in unsafe conditions in a developing country. But we'll turn a blind eye to that, if we can look forward to the future. And really imagine putting ourselves back putting humanity back in the circle with all life on Earth, and envisioning what that actually looks like, Sure, we might be able to do a lot of the things that we do today. But why are we holding on so tight when so many are so miserable? In a picture we humans don't like change. I think that's a rubbish argument. Nothing humans, we change every single day. And we've been going through massive change for the last couple of years. Not that not that people like it, and they're resisting it. But I don't buy the argument. We don't like change. I think people can't see what next looks like. So they're holding on to the old What do you guys think we're putting into a space of unknown we search for what we know and which that is the past, you know, there's a natural sort of knee jerk reaction to want to hold on to what we know, rather than letting go of what's unknown and, and that can relate to pain as well, you know, the painful situation that I'm familiar with, I hold on to that, because it gives me some some feeling. It gives me a feeling of being alive, you know, the being alive is is dealing with that discomfort. Because it's what I know. And so it, you know, part of that is, is being able to stand in that space of not knowing what's the future. And, you know, like what Kevin said about, you know, that sense of connection and what am I feeling what is the science? What is the intuition, perhaps what is my body telling me, you know, something is discomfortable or disconnected and telling me to like step forward or to do something about it, rather than to hold on or to distract myself or do other, you know, habits, just habits that we've been used to doing. And it comes down to that sense of separation of disconnection, like building on what Kevin said about the two different you know, there's there's two different ways of looking at life one could be said to be more of a Western way, you know, a more manmade way in one could be said to be more of an indigenous way or the dometic way where the nomadic way is it's not so much about what we have And what we can have, you know, like objects, it's more about what's becoming, I mean, these are some of the things that I was also learning recently, in that summit, the collective trauma summit with different healers and different traditional, you know, medicine people and communities and psychotherapists and so on, but about holding the space of what are those two worlds, the one where, where something is unknown, and where it is becoming, versus a Western view, you know, so how that relates to a symptom or illness or a disease is that the western view would look at just taking care of that symptom and medicating that one thing, whereas in another culture, it would be about if something is coming, if diabetes is coming, you know, you welcome that you become friendly and curious to that. So diabetes is coming. What is the gift that you have, there's some imbalance in my body in my, in our system. And so I become curious to what is that imbalance rather than just trying to stop it, you know, and so the set, again, is that limited view, and it's that sense of separation, that becomes that that disconnection and that that struggle, you know, to try to really try to find create back that sense of separation, that's me. So that's where things like, like meditation, or contemplative practice or being in nature, you know, walking with a nomad, or being that kind of nomadic, walking with more intention into the spaces that we that we go to be a connector with people like this is what you do your work is, how can I find what's good in this situation and draw it out and help that situation or that person be better for, for my being here, you know, those are ways to, to be a connector and, and we're healing each other in that way, through our intention. It's funny when you were talking about a women's retreat just recently, and the majority of the focus is on Chinese medicine. And I'm sitting here with my green tea, I'm fasting 12 to 15 hours a day. Now, you know, intermittent fasting. So that's a three week thing. So from dinnertime to lunchtime, the next day, I just drink herbal teas, and you know, lots of herbs and stuff, we always have good unhealthy meals, no takeaways, just sort of sitting there listening to it. So you have to eat 15 potatoes today, to get the same amount of goodness that you'd get from a potato, like 50 years ago, we've destroyed the soil so much that we've lost all the natural goodness that goes into our food that we need to have for healthy bodies, right? So I just found this whole weekend, it was just fantastic. But again, it said, he said from the indigenous all the way through to the west. And one of the my challenges with the West that you know, we all grew up in is it's arrogance towards ancient wisdom. And, you know, there's so much pushback against it, you know, you see it all the time, meditation, it will be marked there. Can anyone argue against meditation being a good thing? It's just it is a good thing. Anything to calm your mind down, right? Chinese medicine, acupuncture, you know, in Singapore you can get it is kind of your medical insurance, but in America Kenny's yet, but the arrogance towards ancient wisdom. It's like the victor is right. But the victor isn't necessarily right. They just had been a weapons. So the one the ones who conquered aren't necessarily the wisest one, because often the wisest have the smallest weapons because they've moved beyond war that move beyond violence, because that's what progress of the mind kind of gets you to right. But you guys think it's an interesting topic, I mean, progressive the mind. Yes, we progressed in so many different ways, right? intellectually, scientifically, all sorts of things. But it's, we've lost the actual simplicity of what is actually live. And that is one of the things that the indigenous people bring to that is their understanding of the simplicity of which is life, not the complexity on an ongoing, they understand that as well as the challenges, but they don't necessarily dwell on that they see a simpler path. And which we think is we put down simple, simply because it doesn't seem intelligent enough, unfortunately, today, you hear about I just want simple answers. You know, don't give me the complexity. And so that is exactly what it is. It's about looking at things from a very simple thing. Now, you talked about change on many fronts. And I think that that's an important factor here with the minds in the West. And I think that we are seeing pockets of a lot of that shift and change what you're talking about seeing or Eastern is collaboration of, but it's in pockets. It's not in the governmental scenario. It's not necessarily the high end of organizations. It's not in the C suites are definitely not on Wall Street. And you know, when you think about the one of the biggest money things for me was that I would ask first real questions when I would go in my research, and I would ask the question, how do you deal with change and they kind of looked at me as if I was maybe a bit stupid in the sense that They'd say, I'm not sure why you're even contemplating change or thinking about change, because it just is. And so why spend the energy to do that, because, yes, you're changing from the moment that you wake up, you're never not changing, everything is changing, it just you may not see it, it's just the bigger pieces which deal with your monetary scenario, your emotions that we see our heart changes. And they are, because we make them look this way. Sure, they have challenges indigenous people in the, you know, changing of emotions, and all sorts of things. But they have a very spiritual, natural way of looking at that, and not the complexities that we have. So I think that the progress is somewhat, they're just not fast enough, and certainly is not about embracing the ancient wisdom, as you talk about the ancient wisdom has been around for so long, much more than ours. And so there must be something in it. Because people have survived for many, many years, nomadic cultures have survived for 1000s and hundreds of 1000s of years. And we're on this fast track to kill ourselves. And because the planet will not survive, but the planet has its own voices. And that's why exactly the way it is because it's in rebellion against our voices. I mean, I'm sure that there is some of that, that you probably heard Tim, during this time, you know, it's the only way it can voice is through a catastrophe. I don't know if the planet is rebelling, I don't think the planet really cares about us that much at all. Because she's going to go through whatever change she's going to go through, and then she's going to get hot, things are going to change, and they'll be more water in places where it shouldn't be based on our idea, you know, that it will cool down or warm up again, other beings will come and go, I don't think Mother Earth actually really gives two damns about us, we're just, we're just a pest on her surface at the moment. But I mean, she's here, you know, her, her life is long, it's very, very long, right? And we're just a part of her story. But a tiny, tiny part, you know, we're going to be in the Stratego fee will be, we'll be the energy, the fuel of the future being you know, that's, I think that's the point that I think a lot of people need to understand Earth can do without us. We can't do without earth. The earth isn't fighting us, it's responding to whatever we do. And she'll just keep doing it. That's her journey. And have you ever thought about it that way? Yeah, no, I have thought about it that way. And I think that when I say rebelling, it is your voice saying to the people who are guests, look, you know, there's a challenge here, you know, you can do whatever you want to me, but I'm also much stronger than you, I will do whatever I want to do. You know, you're the guest here, not me. That's what I mean about rebelling in that sense of just sending you a message, you know, and saying, I'm stronger than you, and I will shift your lives, but you have to deal with it. We're not very good at paying attention to the messages, right? That's right. It's feedback from the planet. And we need to be able to better listen, right? As you say, Kevin, also the nomadic mindset is about listening and paying attention to the signs and to nature. And I think like, I mean, this is just my hobby, he really is exploring new levels of awareness and trying to understand that and using visual tools to help anchor and draw those things out. But like, you know, we go into nature and we chop down trees to build you know, our homes and what's the level of consciousness you know, that's behind that it's it's a sense of separation again, it's going in and saying that tree is is for me to consume it's not it's not a part of me I'm not a part of this earth. And so we see it from that perspective is one dimensional and now you know, that's coming up to hit us in the face, you know, and it has been for some time so it's, it's listening, it's paying attention, not just to nature, but also to ourselves to each other. It's I think it's hosting better, creating better spaces for conversations such as like this one, one on one when someone is you know, struggling with something, how do we best listen? Or how do we best create a space for the richness of that moment or of the other to come out one of the things that I the things that I heard that stuck out for me lately was about how do you create great space in what is to be create hospitable space you know, the virtue of hospitality and the other was of humility. So he in the way that this this person described humility was allowing myself to be surprised by the other you know, even someone who you might not expect something much from a cleaner you know, or some somebody who's who's has a roller rink, so called that is not held in much regard but allow yourself to be surprised by each other and that comes to how we listen how we pay attention, how we hold space. For, and then we're acknowledging the beauty the godlike ness in each other in each moment, making friends with the cleaner. Remember, in my office space, there was just one girl, he treated all of the junior and inferior people in her mind terribly, and especially the office cleaner. And I'm like, she cleans your desk every night. You should be nice to her, because she could leave little surprises. And I wouldn't blame her. But like, if you open your mind, in your heart to every single person on this planet that you encounter, yeah, the surprise, right? So one of the chapters in the book is trust first. And it's it's really about that it's really about just opening your heart to everyone who walks in the door without any preconceived ideas based on some idea of social standing, because could be a refugee, or a former refugee who's a doctor in their home country, but can't afford to get the skills and the certification to practice in the new country. So they're working as a cleaner. But they've got not only have they got the skills of the doctor, but they've got the experience of the refugee. And that's an experience I want to hear about. I want to learn from people close themselves off to perceived social standings, when every single person on this planet, it's got something to offer you one way or another. If you're open to a team you've recently attended. It was called the collective trauma summit. So I've watched the wisdom of trauma. Kevin, have you had a chance to watch that yet? The wisdom of trauma, okay, no, I want everyone in the world to watch that. And I'm going to spend some time with the content from the summit as well, I was so blown away by the wisdom of trauma, because I'm a huge believer that we need to stop locking people up and putting them away. And we lock them up in a lot of different ways, whether we building walls in our own towns, or cities, or we build our towns or cities behind walls, and they're on the other side, because the reality is wolves don't work, or we put them in prison from a really young age, and then they have no chance, we need to address the trauma that exists in our society. And we need to create the social structure in our societies to support those people to give them dignity, so that they can recover. And if we do that, we will completely and fundamentally change our societies. But we don't we turn away from people who have suffered trauma, everyone's gone through trauma, right. But some people go further into their trauma, and they become addicted to drugs or alcoholics, they become violent, however it expresses itself and we don't have any compassion for that, it's we have to get over yourself, move on, or lock you out of our family lock you out of our life sort of attitude. So I've had an incredibly powerful because I know that if we can, if we can help people to heal, and if we can create societies to give them the safety to heal, I think we would create so much foundational change in our societies and heal so much that's wrong, but I just wanted to just get a feel for what your experience was from what you've been listening to and what you think, what were some of your big takeaways? Yeah, there was, there was so much conversation on the topic was collective trauma summit. So it's how do we recognize that, you know, there's trauma in the world, and certainly in in certain groups, and traditional groups, historical groups, you know, Aboriginal Australians or other indigenous groups. And so one of the core parts of that is to recognize that, if there's no separation, then you know, that trauma that is held in one in one group and one society, we can share that or how do we allow ourselves to recognize our shared humanity and how we are connected. So and rather than to push that away, as you said, and to try to label it or, you know, turn a blind eye to it is, we need to embrace it, because it is a part of us. And in doing that, we're healing ourselves, you know, there were also conversations about the victim and also the perpetrator, where sometimes the, the healing from the perpetrators is even greater than that of the victims. And the perpetrators are, because they're a part of this, the system that they don't have, you know, they don't understand or they're brought into socially or, or through other contexts, but it's creating that, that space for acknowledging that, and then some way to facilitate that and to heal that through conversations through listening through the other kinds of intervention. So it's acknowledging those challenges and those differences and recognizing that it's a part of us that healing and by stepping into it, we can heal ourselves as well. I love that Kevin, you Yeah, I mean, I think that that's, you know, what we're what you're talking about is the collective healing in many ways, right? is spreading that around is the same thing. What about climate change and and as individuals, it's a collective, and that it's all energetic. If you create a problem energetically and yourself, then you're not accepting of others and then and situations or climate change or biodiversity or whichever trauma, AB creates trauma, you know, again, within so one of the things that you talked about was the individuals, and all of us is to have some sort of traumatic situations. But it's also about how we deal with nature as well is, because if we are interconnected, which we are, then the healing, incredible healing of nature is phenomenal. I love watching your, you know, videos, Andrea, that you put on, because that's so healing for me, because I love the water. And I just love that feeling because it's coming from you also, the point here that I'm getting at is is that indigenous people understand that if you talk to nature, if you say, Okay, I need this tree, because I need to make a canoe, I will say thank you very much for giving me this slide. Or they will say, you know, for the butterfly, thank you so much for spreading the goodness around to the different plants and flowers so that I can have more food. It's about thanking, and that's that interconnection, and what you were talking about, which dissipates the drama, in many ways, you know. And so you also talked about people not saying hello, being nice to people. I mean, I see this on an ongoing basis. Yesterday, I was at the gym and I said hello, how are you to the guy was letting me in? And he says, Do I know you? And should I know, you? know, you don't know me, but I'm just saying hello. Because I think that's a nice thing to say to you because you're a person. He didn't even say anything from that. You're nice. You know? And then later on, I said, Hi, how are you again? And he was much more smiley. But I mean, the point here is, is that, why are people used to that I talked to the butterflies, I talked to the plants, I've talked to the leaves I when I go on a walk and going I'm so grateful for them. It's just a gratefulness of the oneness. And I think that that can help us to get over the trauma. It's not just an individual. Right? It's a collective, as you say, to spread that. But to understand that we're all going through something which you might call trauma is a trauma. I mean, what is trauma? I guess? Is there a definition, Tim, that they talked about for trauma? Well, in this case, yeah. I mean, different people have different ways of talking about it, but the one that stood out for me was separation. And so that can be if you look at that, there's so many different ways you can understand that and embrace that. I mean, as a child, you know, if you're separated from parents, there's trauma, and then you learn certain adaptive behaviors separation, you know, when someone passes on, or, you know, there's a, there's a collective event, like a, you know, war, or racial events or violence or community events, you know, there's that sense of being cut off separated, that trauma, because as a child, you know, there is no disconnect, there's no separation, but then we have these events, and then we're trying to manage them, we're trying to protect ourselves from them, or respond to them, or put up barriers, you know, to deal with it. And then that becomes our disconnection that builds, you know, intergenerationally, and so on, is passed on to the family. I mean, they talked about certain different people talking about experiences, their childhood experiences, where they, if they grew up with racial violence, or if they grew up ancestors that had settled the western United States, very rough, kind of lifestyle, and nobody talked about, there's no founders stories, nothing was spoken about, because it was just traumatic. And then the word lady became curious, why do we Why do we not talk about these things about, you know, grandparents, and so on. And so, always just the way things are, you know, so everyone's accepted that it's, there's a certain way, and we don't give voice to those things that are, you know, our shadow or our trauma. And so we just go around with that baggage. There's that, that wager that heaviness, and it's also a way of protection, but there's a fear there. So when we can create space for those conversations, we can name things, you know, give it a voice, give it a name, that's healing. Yeah, I call it the internal archeological dig route, we've got a it's an important journey to go on, right? within yourself. You know, that's kind of the whole purpose of uncommon courage is go on the journey within yourself. Because I think the other thing that is at the core of trauma, and is at the core of society's problems is shame. And so when you were talking about the abuses and the abuse before, they're shaming that, so for the violent father, towards their wife or children, the ability to face up to themselves and their role within the harm that they created, they have to be willing to be ashamed of themselves and they have to be willing to face that shame. We all have to face especially those of us in the rich world. We have to face up to our shame of of our contribution towards climate crisis and, and the waste crisis and everything that's going on. So I think facing up to our own shame is a big part of what we all need to do collectively, rather than being a negative thing. I think it needs to be a positive thing, because the minute you do so I'll just give you an example. So we've been living a greener and greener life for a number of years, and there's traditions in our lives that we need to start taking out. And so this is a small thing. But last year, I said to Steve, my husband, we can't have Christmas crackers. Yes, she does. We just can't, you know, you break those little Christmas crackers, you get your paper crown, but there's all these tiny pieces of plastic that literally go straight to the rubbish bin. And it was really hard to lay a Christmas table and not put crackers out. And I could tell other people who walked in, were disappointed that there were crackers too. And it's a really small example. But it's to me, it was a really profound example, because there was a moment of mourning. But there was also a moment of shame for the 50 years of my life that I put Christmas crackers out on the table and contributed to the waste problem. So I think shame is at the center of a lot of things. And people are scared to face their shame. Whereas I think we just need to get over ourselves and face it. Because once we do, then we can start saying, right, what am I going to do differently moving forward. So it's the Nelson Mandela, you know, love your captor because the guys who put him in jail, kept him in jail, treated him badly, they had to face the shame of their their own upbringing, their own existence, their own belief systems they had to face at all. And he gave them the space to do that in a beautiful way. Which is why that story is always so incredible. I think we need more of that. But people people struggle to forgive people, he did them harm, and I get that, but we have to let them go because they live only in us if we don't let them go. And that's the crux of forgiveness. You know. So this went around in circles and lots of different topics there. But yeah, that was beautiful. I, I think that the interesting what you were talking about is making shame, a positive thing in the sense of, you know, many people say, Well, how can you make that a positive thing, but the point is, what you're talking about, for me is the learning. Right? And most people don't search for the learning. They just see the big picture of shame of what this situation might be. You talked about also the ancestors and talked about the grandparents and things like that, is that what the, the indigenous people see this as wisdom that is passed down? You know, whether there's positive or negative things, they see it as wisdom of learning. And the consequence here is, is that why can't we see those things as actually wisdom, you know, the possibility of saying, shame, you know, call it what it is, but it's a wisdom is teaching us something, if we want to go into ask the questions, as you were talking about Tim, and get curious, so that you it's not separate. You know, this shame because I killed somebody, but it's a wisdom. What did you learn from that? If you can, and sometimes it takes a lifetime to learn from it as Mandela, he took him all those years to learn the things that put him into jail in many ways, right? But the point here is, is that maybe if we were just shifted, I was just thinking about that, Andrea with when you were talking about that? I don't know. I'm just throwing it out there. No, no, no. Yeah. Shifting, shifting. That's, that's exactly right. We can't look into ourselves into our past and understand, you know, if you're educated in a system that made you believe in a way, it will behave in a way that was not not kind towards others, but you're ready to break out of that system, you should be able to be free to break out of that system, without feeling the shame of connection to a system that you had no choice to participate in. I think that would help so yeah, if I if I was going to think of my what's my tip for today to walk away with is don't be scared of your shame. Face it, face it, learn from it, understand why you were part of it, you know, whether it's the education system, the religious upbringing, the family culture, the your culture, that we all go through propaganda in our lives, right? somebody's giving us propaganda, it's hard to break away from it. I think we've all broken away from it mainly because the three of us are nomads. But when you can step outside of a society or an upbringing or something when you can step outside of it, look back at it, you can see it with fresh eyes. If you've never had the chance to step out, it's hard to see other ways of thinking or believing or doing or acknowledging them or honoring them. You know, we were talking about religion earlier. So one of my favorites is the Hindu faith and to me it's it speaks of how our ancestors had faith right? They go through the world and one of the trees on the river one of the foods that they're eating and they eat go to India there's a there's a god or a goddess for everything and you know and if you need to get pregnant you're going to this garden if you need you know so I've got Ganesha is my favorite Hindu god, he's, I've got a few of them up around, but you got to step out to see more. How do We do that, you know, people are stuck in deep poverty neighborhoods, how do we get them out of those neighborhoods so that they can see that there's other options that they can also get back into their communities and bring more ideas and different ways of being so they can help overcome the trauma? You know, what do you think, Tim, I think we're at the beginning of a conversation, by the way, there's a couple of things like in this summit, one of the metaphors that we're given is, you know, to shame or to trauma is, we put it away, we try to put it away, put it in a box, you know, maybe call that box your freezer, right. And in your house, you have a freezer, you have frigerator freezer for practical reasons. And that freezer requires you requires energy, you've got to put energy into it, you got to take care of it, you got to maintain it. And if we're putting our something inside of us into the freezer, it requires a certain amount of energy to take care of that right to give attention to that, to maintain it to protect it, yeah, to keep it a distance. And so that energy takes us out of being you know, fully present, to give our creative best, and so on. So, so to have, you know, better conversations create more inclusive conversations and inclusive spaces for healing, another dimension was presented in the Four Noble Truths in Buddhism is that suffering is inherent. And number one, and then number two is that there is a cause to your suffering. And number three, there is a solution to that, right, you can heal the suffering. And number four is that that path is noble. So to lead into those discomfort, you know, lean into those sharp edges. And you know, that the path of doing that is understanding, it's, you know, compassion, it's seeking to, to know, before judging, and so on. And there's, you know, these are kind of life skills, and some of the things that you even talked about in the book, you know, around forgiveness, and withholding judgment, and so on. These are kind of life truths, but, but those are the path of looking at challenges in our life, pain, or suffering, or shame or trauma. And working through it is noble. And given what's going on in the world. Everyone is having a traumatic event, this pandemic, right, livelihoods, and lifestyles, and lives for so many. And, you know, so there's a spotlight on mental wellness, and every event I mean is, you know, talking about HR and teams, it's about just taking care of each other self care, how are we doing? Right? wellness and self care? Yeah, so mental health is not a stigma, you know, we need to be able to address that stigma in that shame that's around it, and change some of the labels and the words and the way that we hold that it's a way to, well, here's another analogy that that someone shared is that the the way that you measure the maturity of a society is their ability to deal with the unknown, and to deal with, you know, those aspects that are not integrated, the pain or the parts of disconnect. So how do we best navigate that and give space that and take care of of that in ourselves and within society with each other. So I always say there's a gift, if you choose to see it. And, you know, suffering for me, as we were talking about earlier, one of the chapters like, I really explored the concept of suffering from my perspective. So one of my reasons for rejecting the Catholic Church is I hated the message of suffering at the center of all of it. But as I went through the process of really thinking about why did it bother me so much. And by the end of the chapter, I actually said, suffering is actually a gift. But you have to choose to see it that way. Because that's where you strike go. So suffering can destroy you, or suffering can help you flourish and become the best version of yourself, but only if you see it as a gift. And I think that's a really big opportunity for all of us. We're all going through suffering, but it's a gift if we choose to see it that way. And sometimes people say to me, I Airdrie. You're talking about utopia, it's not possible, you know, tell us she's dreaming sort of attitudes, we both might not get that reference in Australian movie. But the reality is, from all I'm reading from all I'm listening to, from all the different perspectives on the climate crisis, the only way that we can actually have a future that is not full of despair for our children. The only way is if we can raising consciousness on such a level and collectively raising consciousness and get as many people on this planet, we're not going to get everyone you never will. And we shouldn't even aim for that. And we should stop being distracted by that the haters, the dividers, those people, we should stop giving them all of our attention. And we should look in the other direction and say, This is what we need to do. We need to raise consciousness, and it's healing the trauma in our societies. It's healing the trauma in our supply chains. You know, it's healing the trauma everywhere, putting dignity, dignity for all life on Earth, at the center of the world that we build. And you know, it's When we talk about what does the future look like, I think if we can put that at the center of what we use to redesign the world, we have a chance. And people say, I'll offer the theories, but it is the only chance. And that's why I'll fight for it. I really believe that that is our chance. And if I can convince enough people to come with me, maybe we'll have a chance, right? But there's other people who believe it too. So we all do it together. And let's get bigger. And let's create a bigger movement, you know, and bring all these beautiful ideas together and to help people believe, is this possible? I think I'm with you on that. Absolutely. And for me, what is, yes, I'm a follower Andrew. And I have to say that COVID has actually stimulated that to a very high degree in me, and it's part of my work now. And so that is grateful. I'm very grateful for that. I wanted to bring, you know, some sort of thought here. And maybe it's to the end, I don't know from what you've just been talking about Tim, and Andrea is, is that when I talk about the nomadic mindset, is that some people say to me most about travel, well, it's not necessarily physical travel. And what I believe it to be, it's the movement of the mind, and the movement of the mind is fluid, it is curious, it is a pathway, it's pathways to wherever, and it is this travel that we go through in our minds, and we tend to get blocked every so often, and that is true, and then we need to find a way out of it. And that is the wisdom and the the challenges, which we may need external help for that, and whichever, but this becomes part of the, you know, the collective energy within, that we're trying to do. And that noble truth is about the journey. And that all of this is put in front of us, we can fight it and fight it, fight it and resist and resist resist it. But what's the point with resisting is not not accepting. And so therefore, we need to accept what is and then to move to what we can do to shift ourselves and then externally, and I think that that's the thing to do for all of us in let's see, this is the planet crisis, is to understand that it's, it's bigger than us. Also, you know, we're just a cog in the wheel. However, I'm an important cog in the wheel. And that is our movement. That's that movement of the mind. But it's not just mental health, it's holistic, right? holistic health and that inclusive. So I'm going to finish off on one thing that I was asked when I was sitting in a in the Sahara Desert. And when I was sitting in that Sahara Desert, we're having Moroccan tea, the host is the man that makes the tea, and it's quite marvelous. But my, my guide was speaking Arabic and French to the host, and I don't speak Arabic. And they were going through all sorts of conversation and conversation, conversation, conversation. And then all of a sudden, my guide said, Now you cannot ask your questions. I was quite curious why now I could ask them. And so anyway, I asked my questions. And the last thing that happened was the host asked me, he said, because he had found out through the conversations that I had been in a variety of other places, visiting nomadic cultures. And he said, what makes us similar? He didn't ask what makes us different. He said, what makes us similar, because he knew what was different, the different food, different land, different religion, different languages, different all these things, which are pieces. And I had to think I was like, Oh, my God. What I said to him was your humanity is what is similar? Was the underlying piece at the very bottom of the chunk, you know, because we're living at a high level, we'd never get back to the chunking. down to what is the real essence. And that's where we are with a lot of this politicizing of all sorts of aspects of the economy of COVID. of politics of climate change, right? A high level, we need to get lower. Yeah, we need to get to the low level of what does this really mean? and put it into one or two words? And that's it, take care of each other, right? Yeah, I know, it's everyone everywhere in the world, got to take care of each other, and not just each other. But that also includes from what I understand from you is the trees the and the animals and everything is taking care of us. They they are there as well. If we if we have the mindset of taking care of our neighbors or whoever they are, wherever they are around the world, we will already be moved towards the mindset of taking care of nature, because we actually understand the fundamental which is the humanity right? You just said the American tea ceremony by the way is magnificent. I had a I did it in Marrakech, did you get the song as well. I had a lady said man, did you get the song with the tongue? Yeah, no, I I've had it in a variety of ways. I really love it. we ever have a chance? What do you think, Tim, you've given people a chance to walk away with something today, I think one thing that resonates with me is, is maybe the idea of humility. We're at the top of the food chain, perhaps, and we have a bit more developed brain, you know, than other creatures and species and so on. But, but look at what's happening in the world, though, right? Nature has dealt the higher hand, so to speak. And so what's possible now, I mean, it's letting go of old structures, and we're seeing that starting and, you know, but as Kevin mentioned, it's, there's a hell of a lot of resistance, you know, to different reasons. Often, it's that story of separation, you know, I need to take what is mine, and you have what yours and different stories around that, but humility and from that space of humility, then we we naturally become curious, you know, we become interested in in each other more, we become interested in, you know, what's not right in myself a bit more what's not right, in my immediate community family, and, you know, the pain that everyone is, you know, we're all experiencing people's outbursts, or pain or anger to have, as best we can have compassion to that, because it's a way of responding to the environment. And we can have, have space for that, be light about it, hold it with lightness, be curious about it, rather than to shun it, or to, you know, fight back at it, you know, in your homes, and so on. That's where healing can start inside. And so ask better questions, I think, of ourselves and of each other. And these are some of the sort of things I'm thinking, if there's pain, if there's pain in my immediate environment, or that I can see, you know, who do I want to be? How do I want to be with that, that opportunity to reach out to someone or to be patient rather than to lash back, you know, out of my own pain or something? And those are those choices where I think we can all grow in those moments. I love that. Absolutely love that. I've come up with the title, humanity, humility, embrace your shame. What do you think? That is? Totally 100%. agree with you, Tim. Totally, absolutely. Fantastic. All right. So we'll wrap up, I would recommend Kevin cotton spoke, the nomadic mindset never settle for too long. It's a beautiful book, it really goes into the ideas that we're talking about here. And Kevin has so much to teach us if we're willing to listen and learn from him. So go and buy the book on Amazon, or wherever you buy books. And Tim, you've got a couple of free workshops coming out, including clearer picture of your purpose, I can see it over your shoulder, but I shared it on uncommon courage. And I know that it's happening, probably when we launch this podcast on Wednesdays, you've got you've got a couple of other things coming up. Right? Yeah, I mean, we do different different things, we have our visual facilitation work, which is this one, which is teaching people the skills of listening and drawing and, and in a way, you know, holding space for more creative conversations, more generative conversations, more imaginative conversations, which is, you know, all the things we've been talking about as expansion and love versus, you know, holding back and fear and so on. But these are things that are more in a corporate space, but the talk that we're doing clear picture of your purposes, is kind of my passion project through the pandemic is, is this intersection of mental wellness and creative tools and and how do we, you know, give a language to that, how do we articulate that through creative symbolism and image and, and so on, to embrace it, to let it go and then find the new the new story, you know, through pictures and drawings, and to help us to better navigate that sense of uncertainty, rather than to hold on what was in the past you feel lost and what's not yet there. When we make a drawing, we can integrate that and let go and feel a little more grounded and more peaceful. And so I've been out rediscovering creative tools, contemplated tools, meditation drawing, I'll just share on this document camera. You know, one of the things that has been coming up for me is how do I be stronger for my family? and been meditating on you know, this roots, these root systems, just holding that in my imagination and seeing it? May I read the poem? Yeah. So this is this just came last week, you know, in this meditation, about roots and about groundedness. So it said, these roots that I grow, not to grasp or to know but receive and to flow to connect to the core. Far below is a door to my source, it is subtle and find yet complex in his vine with the earth, and twines embrace twisted ends yours in mind, let's begin groundedness Welcome friends. The image is amazing. We got to put this one out in the world, I find peace in these, you know these things, these are subtle tools, but there's peace And that, I think that's what we're looking at is how to, you know, starting inside finding that core, that reconnection versus the separation, and then we can bring a more full ourselves, I think between the three of us, we're all seeking to achieve the same goal in our own way. We're doing the same things, but in our own way, I think we created. We all agreed, exactly, we're trying to help people get to the same space, but you need multiple ways to help people to get to a space, because not everyone's going to respond to each of us are going to say, right, so but they might respond to Tim, or they might respond to Kevin, they might find me to, you know, they don't like the way I do things. And that's cool, too, because we can't be we can't be everything for everyone, right. And I think, you know, anyone who's sitting in this sort of work that we do, which is about speaking and teaching and writing, and I think acknowledging that we can't we're not for everyone, and that's okay. But we're all trying our hardest to get a message of, of hope and healing out into the world. So what a gift. So Tim, I will put your like the link to art of awakening, enter your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. And Kevin, I'll put a link to your book and your LinkedIn profile in the show notes as well. If there's any other way that you want people to get in touch just yeah, it's fine. I also just wanted to share that I'm developing a course a coaching course for it's called the nomadic mindset for master for coaching. And it will be starting next year. And so I will be doing a webinar next month and just looking at the dates right now to share. What does this really mean and what is it what is it of course include, so it is about taking people on a journey. In fact, maybe it's a safari. Now I might sign up for that. It sounds awesome. Alright, so thank you guys. I knew we'd have a beautiful conversation and I hope you guys enjoyed it, too. Yes, it was wonderful. Thank you so much, Andrea, always be careful to deal with both of you. That were a good little combination. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Gary. Have a great day. God bless love. Well, there you go. I knew that that would be a wonderful, lovely, beautiful conversation. And of course with Tim hemans and Kevin Cottam. It always is so thank you so much to both of you for joining me I also want to say a big thanks to Priscilla Joseph who is turning into the editing podcast master don't steal from me, Gary Kraus at legend music Paquette who's doing all of my original soundtracks and a final thing if you are enjoying my podcasts, I mean that would really help is to give it a rating on your podcast platform. I think you could do stars but even better if you can just write a little review and talk about why you enjoy it that would really help. Anyway I hope you enjoyed that I really enjoyed doing it and I'll see you soon. stock to say all of this stuff. Common common common common