Climate Courage: sharks and ocean health

Our oceans hit heat extremes in 2023 that have literally gone off the charts, and with annual peak temperatures not expected until February/March 2024, there is a lot of anxiety about how high the temperatures will reach, as well as the impact of that heat on life in the ocean, which of course, impacts life on land.

In the Northern Hemisphere summer, we saw coral bleaching right across the reefs in this region, which does not bode well for the Southern Hemisphere summer, as well as mass die-offs of fish and crustaceans, extreme hurricanes, and tornadoes due to the intense heat in the oceans, and so much more. It’s definitely been grim tidings in the big blue for 2023, and that impacts us too. 

So, what can we do about it? I wanted to speak with someone who loves the ocean and is very in-tune with the reality under the water, and that person is Elizabeth (Liz) Ward-Sing. Liz and her partner Brendon Sing set up Shark Guardian as a UK Charity. They are both professional divers, shark researchers and educators, and through Shark Guardians they run campaigns and activities worldwide, including in the United Kingdom, and across Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. They really are doing important work. 

With Liz, we are going to understand why sharks are so important for ocean health, what the situation is for sharks today (as well as other apex predators) and what we can do about it, as well as what we must be pushing our leaders to change today before we pass the tipping point and can no longer change the trajectory. 

Do join us. This is an important conversation and there will be many powerful take-aways. 

Climate Courage is a fortnightly Livestream and podcast published on Uncommon Courage, where we go big picture on the climate crisis and focus on the actions you and I can take to be part of the solution. Whether individual action, community action, or national/global action - every single one of us can be part of ensuring a live-able future for our children and grandchildren. We owe them that!

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To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

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Transcript

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Oh, and a minute's right. Oh, nice. Welcome to Climate Courage. My name is Andrea Edwards, and today, I'm so happy to have a friend with me, Elizabeth. Sorry. I might call you Liz straight up. Ward Singh. And, yeah, I you're just one of these people that amazes me. So welcome. Welcome. Really thank appreciate you coming. Thank you for having me. I admire you. I've admired you for so long, so it's a a pleasure to be a guest on your show. Oh, thanks, darling. So, anyway, you're, the cofounder of Shark Guardian with your lovely partner, and you're on the front line. Yeah. There we go. Shark Guardian. You're on the front front line educating, educating, educating. I mean, you're doing so much. So let's just to kick it off for those who don't know you, You know, the back background on the life and times of Liz because you've you've you've had quite an interesting life already. Yeah. But also then let's move on to Guardian, and and why you started it, the work you do, and your goals. But let's go back to the a little bit more of the beginnings. Yeah. I mean, SharkGuardian is now 10 years old and that's pretty incredible. So, we created SharkGuardia in 2013. In 2010, well, I got together with my husband Brendan in around 29 2009. We met on Quailanta in Thailand when I was doing, lots of Stuba diving. My background is health and wellness. I'm a physiotherapist. And I ended up in Thailand doing lots of diving, because I just got fed up with the rat race and wanted to travel the world. So once I met Brandon this is the very short story I have To say. He wooed me with all these stories about sharks. We got together, I supported him to do some educational sessions in Bangkok and around the island when we're living in Kalanta for a short time and just realized, You know, there was information we really needed to share. So think about 2008, 2009, we saw a massive decline in shark numbers And big fish in a very short period of time. So my husband will will, you know, share this story from 1 season seeing 2 to 3 to 5 leopard sharks, so the beautiful zebra sharks that have a big pattern like a leopard. Seeing, you know, up to 5 a dive regularly, suddenly, you were lucky to get 1 or 2 a season. And it was over fishing. You know? And we were seeing more boats out there. And at the same time, the rise of shark fin soup as a as a Fashion, Satan, symbol was happening. So we were sharing this education mainly to divers who you think would kind of be aware of what was happening in the oceans and also The shark and soup and the the consequences. They didn't know about it, and we we were in Indonesia in two thousand and And resort, we started to do little presentations together. This is just something that Brandon created, like playing around, sharing his experience, studying sharks in South Africa. That's his background. And we just realized we had something really unique, especially as a husband and wife team To be able to be relatable, you know, not just a guy standing there talking about sharks or just a woman sharing. It was our joint efforts with joint Experiences. So we started we went into schools, when we finished that job and it just kind of it rolled from there. It was just word-of-mouth. Teachers would suggest to all the teachers get them into your school, and then it became you know, we got dive centers on board. We created My educational material, books, everything. And and it's mainly us supported by a team of trustees in the UK. And, yeah, we're impacting a happen. The 1st year, so 2013, we we decided to become a charity so, you know, a bit a better status when we were approaching schools, we presented to 30,000 people in that 1st year. Since then, it's it's hard to track it all because we have others doing things for us. But, yeah, that was like the kind of the effect. So 10 years on, like now we're getting messages from kids who saw us in that 1st year, and now they're doing marine biology or other things. And, you know, you don't realize you're doing something now, that effect, later on. And I know you just started that. I just got I just got chills. That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Because, yeah, you don't you don't always know the impact you're having, so how beautiful is that? Yeah. Oh, wow. So we I mean, we we talk to it all, the shark finning industry, stuff that's going on in the ocean. You know, there's lots of little cogs in the big picture. We decided to hone in on the education because we knew with the right with with anything. With the right education, you make better choices. You know, and going into schools and hearing these little kids saying that there are weddings and banquets in places in Asia, and they're being served sharp in soup Because it's a, you know, a fashion or a status. So we give them the information and they pass it on. You know? They can't change the eldest generation who are kind of Stop in this fashion and culture, which is obvious, but we can make the next generation change. And, you know, this education in places like Hong Kong has been successful because the next generation are choosing shopping suit alternatives for, you know, a more sustainable way. So, yeah, that's, really part of it. What we we collaborate on research projects, we collaborate on, we run our own expeditions and, yeah. So we have different arms of different things that we do because we can't do it all ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we need, community coming together. Right? Alright. So the wider challenge in the world today, obviously, COP 20 8's happening, and we're gonna hear all sorts of, Hopefully, positive things, but we're also gonna hear a lot of nonsense, and we already have heard a lot of nonsense. You know? The beef the beef industry and the, the meat industry and the dairy industry Or in there, we're clear talking points, and it's all healthy for humanity. And we know, petroleum deals will be happening. So anyway but our oceans this year hit hit extremes that are literally off the chart. And annual peak temperatures I'm not expected to reach their peak until March or maybe February 2024. So when we haven't even seen the worst of it, but, there's definitely a lot of anxiety in the scientific community about how high it's gonna go and what that impact is gonna be, especially, things like, corals. You know, in the northern hemisphere summer, we saw coral bleaching right across the corals in the northern hemisphere that that we've never seen that level of bleaching before, and this obviously does not bode well for the southern hemisphere, you know, not just the Great Barrier Reef, but all across the Asia Pacific and the global south. So we've seen mass die offs of fish and crustaceans, whales, and also, Even the staff is here at risk of extinction. We've seen extreme hurricanes, tornadoes due to the the heat in the ocean making them worse. The Acapulco one was just startling. So it's definitely been grim tidings for the big blue in 2023, which I'm sure for you, Liz, is a heartbreaking thing. But so let's start let's start with the first question. Why are sharks So important for the ocean's health. Yeah. I'm glad you moved away from that because it it it can get so overwhelming, and we've We've gone through those stages. You know, before we start to shop, I mean, officially, I remember having these conversations when we were in North running a resort. People would be like, How do you keep doing what you're doing when the numbers are so bad and the sharks dying? You know, and these people were sat there eating barracuda or these other you know, And that wasn't in alignment with us anyway. We've seen that. But it was just that, you know, you're missing the the The picture here with this. So, yeah, most people don't understand how important sharks are. So they are the apex predator, so simple food chain, you know, sharks. Yeah. We need other natural predator for a shark or big shark is it a bigger shark or orcas, killer whales? They're up there at the top, you know, and, You know basic science, the top and the bottom are also so important in keeping the balance within those food chains. So people at some point thought, well, if you take sharks away, we're gonna get more of those bigger fish, aren't you? So brilliant. You can feed the populations or whatever, but Doesn't work like that. There's so many intricate webs of balance. They showed this, you know, with the with the wolves in America many many years ago and then And and and the the catastrophic effect on the ecosystem, it's the same with sharks. The places where the sharks have been removed It's it's imbalance down to the coral reef because the bigger fish eat the reef fish, and they then cannot eat the algae off the The corals ultimately then the corals start to die and this is what essentially happens with Thailand. Most places that you go snorkel or dive in, People often say oh that's the coral bleaching, actually it's not, it's because there's been so much overfishing that it just From Bulls, and you see all just this algae. So, yeah, they are massively, massively important for keeping the oceans firstly healthy. So they eat the dead, the dying, the weak, and the injured. So you've got the variety and it's survival of the fittest. You know? That's, basic biology isn't it To keep things healthy. Then you've got the balance. They are the kings of the ocean keeping all those ecosystems, all the different parts working well. They eat you know, if there's, like, a dead whale that's died of natural It will eat that so then it can, you know, sink to the bottom of the remains and and whatever, so you don't have those kind of fluids Glad to know out. And so they have many, many roles, and they get a bad press, which is why people generally don't wanna know about them and don't wanna care about But without them, given that our planet is, you know, more than 70% water, Oceans rely on sharks for keeping them healthy and balanced. This is a very simplistic view. You know, and the the oxygen we get, again, more than 70% of the oxygen, it's not from the trees and the rainforest. It's the oceans. So it's pretty important we look after oceans and our sharks, and it and that's that's what it became. I mean, it became a thing because We saw the declining shark numbers, we saw shark fin soup being consumed, how wasteful it is, how toxic it is, And people were consuming it because of a fashion and because they thought, oh, yeah. Wicked. And it started with that, but then, you know, it's the whole web. And as we were saying Oh, there's so many things going on right now. We need people that are working on those different components, but certainly sharks need more attention than they're getting. Yeah. They they sure do. Alright. So from the work you're doing, the research you guys are, you know, seeing and carrying out yourselves, so What's your assessment of where we are right now, especially with sharks and other apex predators? I mean, things like tuna really kind of freaked me out. What's going on there? Yeah. It's it's difficult because to get these actual figures, it is so super, super difficult. So I mean, my answer with with this is, You know, we have Maya Bay close to both Bezier and Phuket. I'm in Krapi in Thailand. They closed it for a couple of years. The populations of black tips and the coral, how it has regenerated even during the pandemic. You know, basic coral reefs that you didn't even know existed probably on your local beaches. You were seeing beautiful marine life. Like, things can bounce back. So there is Quickly. If things would be put in place, yeah, they closed Mabay for 3 months. And, you know, the shark blacktip populations there right now in some of our local islands, They are there. They are healthy. They can be healthy, but the problem is tourism mass tourism isn't being expanded. I think the other point with sharks, there are more organisations trying to do things. So for example, great white sharks, up until 2 or 3 years ago, there wasn't so much really know known about them with their migratory patterns, And they thought that sharks that we've seen around South Africa and those seen around Australia were different species. You know, with technology, they now contract That migration. So then that becomes, really crucial to have these conventions like, you know, the the National, Convention for migratory species. You know, you've you've gotta get your countries involved to protect them. So there's on one side, there's there's More research happening, which is so positive, but then you've not always got all the countries involved due to different interests, Whether it's oil or fishing, so there's so many challenges still. So I like to still think of it on a positive level, but, you know, there's there's a lot of species that have hit The, particularly endangered level, there are many within the endangered level and unfortunately people only tend to Wake up when something is on that verge of extinction. So we we're very much optimists, so we like to stay in that positive frame, but I but I don't know and again it's over fishing that is The single biggest biggest threat because it's overfishing, it's bad fishing practices, and it it's just not sustainable for all our ocean and that's something that needs to be controlled on a on a higher level and we have somebody who does work a little bit underground and there's there's gonna be a few Publications and a few things that kind of insettle the waters coming out early next year linked with this, And it's research like that, but it's super important. So we haven't I mean, you know, if you think about the impact so far, overfishing, which is Absolutely true. And we so we haven't really even started to face ocean heating as an impact. No. That's without that. So it's not fair and easy even without that on the top. And I remember how many years ago was it when we had the last one, you know, and being in the water, I think I was working in the similar islands, and, you know, I have to wear layers of wet suit even in the hot country. And I remember just It's been that I am warm. I am hot. And I remember we we hardly saw any, like, manta rays or or whale sharks that season. And it's interesting actually that that you're saying this. I've had conversations, recently with people who track the manta rays here in Thailand and also With, with whale sharks, it's been much less over the last couple of years. So whether that's a direct response, you know, Species rely on certain temperatures. It's, it's some a reason they sometimes give, when certain sharks are in different waters because they have moved. You know, Indonesia, they had, like, a great white shark in Komodo a couple of years ago. You know, the great white shark, you get cool waters around Indonesia, you know that, but not as cool as great white sharks, you know, that's a reflection that That things are changing and moving and how that impacts, so not only sharks and other big fish, marine species, how they can actually live, you know, Think about gestation. They rely on a certain temperature to breathe, so to breed and and and, you know, and repopulate. So, I was looking at some studies yesterday to do with that, how it can affect the incubation period. So again, there's these knock on effects of those temperature rises and the displacement of species and how that then impacts whether it's a different reef or or, You know, a a different, seafood industry. You know, another example, there were some sharks removed by from a certain location in Hawaii some years ago. Because they took the sharks away, the rains there overpopulated, and then they ended up eating the oysters or I I I never forget. But, you know, there's that, And suddenly that seafood industry collapsed and that was jobs, money, infrastructure for so many Just with the sharks being removed. So it's it's it's these these things you can't mess with. There's always a knock on effect somewhere Down the line or elsewhere, and that's that's the concern for sure. Yeah. I've been tracking, fish migrations for quite a while now, and, every everything's going north or it's going south and, it's like it kinda when when I read about it, I'm like it's like those Movies of the future where the birds are all flying, and if the humans don't get the message that they need to go in the direction of the birds, they're not gonna make it, you know, those sort of things. And I I sort of said to my husband, I think we should be paying attention to where the fish are going, because you know? But but where they go, they they destroy other ecosystems that exist have existed for millennia. Right? So it's not No. It's not a good thing, but the the temperature rise. So in the Amazon, the Dolphins, have you seen the mass die off of the pink dolphins in the Amazon? I have no doubt. I will. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really sad one. I've got 1 I'll be putting another one in the weekend reads on it, but they, they they can get they can cope with up to 38 degrees temperature in the water, and it's been getting it went up to 40 degrees. And so there was this mass die off. But like you say, it impacts lots and lots of things like turtles, for example. There's more females born when when it's in hot sand than in cooler sand. You know? So if you're only getting female turtles born, well, then you you're looking at an extinction event. So I I'd sort of think you know, I know it's not pleasant for people to sort of hear it, but every extinction, every ecosystem collapse Makes it harder for us to be able to pull back, you know, and and that's where we are now, where we really are. You know, when people say we're out of time, This is our last chance. And, you know, like you were saying, so during the pandemic here in Phuket, we could snorkel off the beach and see this amazing variety of fish. I I was even dive I was even snorkeling with this huge turtle one day, because there were no boats in the water. There were no tourists in the water, you know, and we see a lot of, you know, tourists who don't respect the environment, picking up starfish for selfies underwater and that sort of thing. Right? So the respect for the natural world and the amount of people that are coming into these environments, you know, there's just no there's no conversation around Starting to shrink that down. You know? We need to shrink it all down in every way possible. Right? Yeah. There's there's There's so much there's so much part to it. There's so much I can say just about sharks and what I've witnessed underwater as well, You know, I have over the years, you know, you think people would be coming more knowledgeable, but unfortunately, you've hit on the world of social media and how people just get lost in What they want to share whereas they could be using that voice for so much good as we are. You know you use social media for good and more more people do need to We're talking about it. So we've got a hope that these messages get out to the younger generation because, well, We're saying it needs to happen now, but, yeah, what our kids are going to have to deal with is is scary. It is scary indeed. And that's that's why we fight. Right? Look. My boys tell me their tell me their dreams. They look me in the eye and tell me their dreams, and I'm I sit there and I'm like, I don't know if that dream is possible. I'll never tell them that. No. Because I want them to I want I I wanna fight so that they can chase their dreams so that all children can Chase their dreams, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's, alright. So, what are the movements that you're seeing that are are linked to sharks, other than SharkGuardian, that that you think that people could really get behind, you know, and get get involved in or even educate themselves. Where where would where would you recommend people go sort of build their knowledge base. Yeah. I mean, particular organizations, there's lots about that. I mean, I from from a movement, something people can do, I think it's the the Plastic. Single use plastic. Stop using plastic. Just say no. Just I think especially in Asia. I mean, it's worldwide though, isn't it? Like, You know, and there's lots of groups like trash hero we have here. There's so many things that you can get involved with. Yes, saying no to your straws and your bags. Like, That should be basic, just normal instinct now, yet it's not. You know, I see the people in the bars and the restaurants, Johnson, when there's 2 straws in a cup in a in a cocktail, you know, it's like, that needs to stop. And, you know, England just, like, did a ban on all the single use Plastics, you know, that with takeaway meals and straws and whatever. Like, that should be everywhere and only by us refusing and just Keep saying these things, can that that stop or make you different? Like, I know you can feel like you're hitting your head a bit against brick wall, but you know, Took your bamboo or metal straws in your car or your bags, we've always got them in there. We're not perfect, you know, we mess up, but if it's One straw out of 10, that's a a big big difference. I think that's, you know, that's a big big big, thing. We we really like WildAid. Like, we've we've done, you know, there's WildAid Thailand. They've done a lot of campaigns Back in the Beijing Olympics, you know, the famous basketballer was part of a big campaign. So organizations like that, It's, you know, the the it's specific project, but they are very much aware of what's happening, you know, globally. And then you've got your your big ocean Conservation organizations, you know, there's too many there's too many to to to to list them all. But I think From from an action point of view, I think more than anything, yeah, you can get knowledgeable with these, but, like, we've got Christmas coming up. And, you know, I'm already seeing it. I'm glad I'm not in England where I think everything's been in shock the last few weeks and in Phuket you have it more than I have here in Krabi, But, just make those better choices. You know, buy from your little local shops. We use things. Like, I whipped up an advent calendar last night just by using bits and made art and craft, you know, made something cool for the girls Rather than going buying another plastic advent calendar that's just chocolate and commercial, focused, you know, it like, it's It's simple. It doesn't have to be difficult. I think, you know, we're using secondhand toys and presents and gifts. Like, Again, social media, you can access all that. So I think those are big things because, again, this is all focused really around Trash issue because I'm going off on 1. I'm coming back to the shop. No. That's that's alright. It's huge. Because we have the the you know, we have 3 plankton feeder sharks, so that means they are ingesting the plastic that, You know, that that doesn't disappear. You know, microplastics, what is it we consume? A credit card a week of microplastics from our food, from our water, from the environment. Like, That's that's sick. Scary. So the less we can do to put it into the ocean, the more we can do to do beach cleanups and whatever. You know, if you're on holiday and you see trash on the floor, don't think that there's somebody paid to pick that up. They're probably not. Like, pick it up, put it somewhere, leave the example. I think I think they are the biggest things, and then again coming back to Christmas, you know, support organisations like ours, like we have these member member Rather than buying gifts, this is this can be a gift. And, you know, these are the organizations that have, You know, what is it like, sponsor an elephant or sponsor a shark or whatever? Like, use those kind of gifts because organizations like ours rely on funding just to keep our head above the water. No pun intended. Well, you know, like make those different choices because not all organisations have big donors, People supporting them to do what they do and the ones like us, it's the passion and the drive, we get stuff done because of that Rather than because there's lots of money supporting lots of stuff. One day we will and we hope it's not too long for that. And and, yeah, and and the seafood thing. You know? Just don't eat as much seafood. We don't run that damn people's throats. I'm a vegan By choice and through health choices, but, you know, our our oceans are in trouble. And every time you're eating something, like, It's it's a piece of the puzzle. So even if it's just once a week, you have a fish free day or you have a fish free, Was it it's normally dry January, but there's normally a fish free month February. It's probably fish free February. There's a month for everything, isn't there? So, you know, Don't wait for those months. Like, just do your own thing, you know, include it into your your natural, routine. Because I'll give you this little story and I was thinking about this earlier. We had a scientist, so there's a lady we collaborate with for a project called Eocean. So Every time we do dive in or snorkeling we enter data into the sea oceans. It's like just a big global map Of the key species, so whale sharks, turtles, dolphins, seahorses, everything is is mapped, but trash as well. And it and this is anyone who goes near the water can do this. It's brilliant, and she started it as a shark back when we started in 2013, actually. So it's been awesome to see it grow. It's now an app. And she came here to to discuss projects and things with us, and it was before my my youngest was born. So over 5 years ago, she was here. She went and bought a fish from our local market, because some volunteers cut it up and she found microplastics In that fix, that's just a random randomly selected microplastics, and that was 5 years ago. Like, that doesn't put a bad taste in your mouth. Not trying to scare you, but this is the reality. So, you know. I I I'm a 100% with you. I'm not I've never been a massive seafood fan anyway, but if I have it once a month, that's that's amazing for me. But, I know what chemicals and pollutants are going into the fish, you know. I mean, some of the apex predators are so toxic now, like orcas. Yeah. The whales in the Faroe Islands that they're slaughtering, they're so toxic now full of chemicals that, You know, like, for me, why would anyone eat seafood now? Anyway, there's a funny cartoon that's like, oh, can I have a plastic bag for my fish? And and the guy behind the counter says it's already inside. And and yeah. It's like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we really have we've really done a huge number. And, You know, one of the other things about the microplastics, which is why it's such an important conversation as well for the ocean, not just because of the waste, His research is basically saying that by 2060, male humans will be sterile because of all the microplastics and the chemicals that are coming into our bodies. It's through the medication we're taking, which is getting flushed out into the environment and, obviously, all the microplastics, but it's also impacting All species of animals and their sexual, reproduction, you know, their ability to reproduce. So, You know, we could be at the beginning of a a mass die off anyway just because of that. I mean, there's thousands of chemicals used that are going into our environment. And the vast majority of them, they don't even know the impact that they have on on us. And we, you know, we spray chemicals around our home liberally. We don't even think about it. You know? It's like, just white vinegar. That's all you need to clean your house now. Yeah. That's fair. Like, carbonate of soda, know, going back to some of them. 8, 9 years ago when I had my first daughter, like like, that was that was just yeah. I learned about And and you don't you don't need all this fancy stuff. Like, I we go into hotels now that have been cleaned, and we're just like, can't breathe because we're not using something. Because we're so low tops here. We don't have any of those kind of things. And and, yeah, just think if it's out there, it's gonna end into the waters. That means it's gonna get into The food chains for the things you eat, but it's the food chains of sharks and all the other important key species that are keeping the oceans alive. But, you know, If the chemicals themselves don't put don't harm the coral reefs. You know, this is why if you go in the the water, you need to make sure you've got a reef safe Sun cream. Like, that should go without saying. And again, that should go without saying that these big companies are not should not produce Any sunscreen or products that can can harm our wreaths, like gams. No. If we were the we were the president, I wouldn't want those jobs, Andrea, but, you know, if we were, there were so many simple steps, And it just shows what what it's driven by ultimately, but that's a whole new common whole different common sense. It is and and it's funny. I I think we actually first met when I bought some, Reef Safe some block from you. Right? Yeah. Because you were you you had a a store where you were selling that. Alright. So if I mean, you might have already done it, Sort of said it now, but if you could change one thing that we are doing in the ocean, what what what would it be? I would go with the overfishing, and there's so many Manufacturers. It has to be the overfishing because it's it's unsustainable. It is, you know, exploitive on so many roadways, not only what they're Taking from the ocean, but from the from the the the people who are on the fishing boats as well. I know. It's terrible. These Fleets, where they go, you know, and it's this is the thing like the shark fin trade. Like, people think it's all in China because that's where the biggest consume It's consumers of shark fin soup are, but, you know, Hong Kong is the hub for it all, but there are many many other Countries around the world who are, are doing it and you know the European countries make up a third Of all the shark finning that goes on. And so it's these, you know, fishermen, the boats that go out there and are killing the sharks, and then they export it to Hong Kong who then distributes it for use in the shark fin soup, if that makes sense. So this is why we work with airlines, with all the conservation organizations to stop the transport of shark fin soup, of shark fins because Yep. Then that's, you know, in reducing the supply, the demand in the chain. So yeah, it's that you know, having an awareness of that, but Fishing methods, it and it's crazy. You know, it's like Oh, yeah. You know, like the the whole dolphin in a, the tuna The dolphin. You know how how the the the labeling is dolphin safe or whatever. There is no such thing That of that, I believe, and even those those those, companies who we trust With regards to seafood, those choices, they cannot be trusted. You know, there's the famous movie sea spirocy, if you've not seen that go and have a look because that the outcomes of that are still ongoing and this thing about sustainable fishing, all that can be sustainable It's, you know, the guy who goes or the lady who's who goes out on a little boat like you see in Indonesia, they they catch what they need Away from the reef, you know, that's how it used to be done, and there were so many places who were surviving and managing and thriving like that, And then the big companies came in, here's your money, we're gonna have to bring our big boats, and and, you know, they've just Devastated these basic fishing villages. It's so it's sad to see and, you know, so it's fish, Sharps, dolphins, the whole shebang. So again, reducing what we consume from a fish point of view, seafood, You are impacting that. You are. It takes a lot of us to make that choice. Yeah. But yeah. That that's the biggie. It's scary, isn't it? When you see those programs about it, and I think people, again, just act ignorant because they don't wanna not eat the fish. Yep. English there. But you know what I mean? Like, it's if you see it, you cannot unsee the disruption that's happening in our oceans. Yeah. Yeah. It's big. You know, the the the the the mega fishing trawlers, that's something I I I spend a lot of time thinking about, like you know, we the world needs to do big things right now to solve big problems. And I think one of the best things we could do right now is to get all of these megatrawlers with their big, huge nets that take so much. Get them out of the water. Just get and, like, If the billionaire class wanna keep doing what they're doing, okay, how about you buy the fishing trawlers out, you know, and then get their boats out of the water. Use the boats the material from the boats to build refugee villages and cities and towns because we're gonna need them. But let's get the big ones out. The the local, smaller, family run, community run fishing. We've got it we that you know, I watch people here who didn't have jobs for a couple of years. You know? They were growing their own gardens. They were Gardens are growing herbs, and they were on they were fishing, and they were getting the mussels and oysters from the rocks, you know, so they they went back to that really sort of basic survival, to survive during that time. But I but I think, you know, we've definitely gotta get these guys off the ocean. And I'm not seeing any indication that even been thought about, but because we're so close now. You know? It's a sea spiracy. I think it really, you know, really highlighted how close we were. And a lot of people have criticized the movie the movie. I don't think they were very good at, at at the statistics that they just like the vegan one that what's his name did. Do you remember the vegan one that was a few years before? What's the name? Yeah. I think they they they use It's got a similar name. Yeah. But they they could've they could've done it because because I do so much research. They could've done a better job on the research, and and and it became a critical part of this of the movie or documentary that you know? Anyway but that but that's beside the point because what they were actually saying, and they were showing us the fishing yards in, you know, in Japan where the tuna is. And the tuna is at such a critical level now, so we've gotta we've gotta get we've gotta get these boats out. I I'm expecting a similar response to me, but Mining, what are your thoughts? I feel the governments are making the right decisions so far. Yeah. I mean, just going back there, there's there's also, a documentary called The End of the Line. I don't know if you saw that. It was out around the same time. And so there's Sharp water, the cove, the end of the line, they're all around kind of 2007, 8, 2006 even. Know, they've been out a long time. The line had a lot of that information that was in Sea Spirit. So even more like it was showing, like, some of the, I'm doing this because they were showing the fishing lines how long they could wrap around the whole globe, like how long some of them are, and and some of the nets are as big as, like, 12 football fields or something like that, like, you know, just crazy. Yeah. Deepsea Mining, as I said, I don't know lots about it, but looking into what it actually involves, like, How can you like, we know more about outer space, don't we, than we know what's underneath our oceans? And the medicines and the the things that have been achieved and and solved or or or, you know, these, drugs that have been created for Diseases like Alzheimer's and the like, again, don't quote me on all this, but this is this is many years ago I've seen this kind of study. That's from coals or substances, plants underneath in the ocean. Yet we haven't explored all our oceans. There are parts that we've never been to, yet you're talking about just ripping all of that apart. Like, one in itself, the effect of that destructive those destructive methods. And as we've just said, like, a basic knock on effect of, you know, removing shots or removing this or the cold bleaching, the knock on effect that that has onto The different aspects of the ecosystem. You can play with another part of these ecosystems with this deep sea mining. Like, I hate to think. What? And they don't know they don't know that, do they? Like, why throw another massive thing into the picture when it's in a mess anyway? Why don't you use your money and energy to fix what's already going on in there? That's my perspective on it anyway. Yeah. No. Absolute no. It's just it's horrifying. Right? The the the going into something with absolute ignorance, it's just like you know, all business leaders have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and employees. Well, how could you possibly be exercising that? You know, if they could get little robots that can go across the seafloor and pick up these little These little rocks and getting back to the surface without destroying anything, fine. But they're not even talking about that. It's just scraping the bottom. You know? And It's like just a a throw in and guess, isn't it? It's just like throwing your your neck at the I don't know. Yeah. You and what we used to do when we were kids and just see what came out, and it was Yeah. With life, you know, like, once upon a time, like, what are you gonna find now down in there? You know? And and, again, like you say, you send the little robots down, send your your submersibles that can cope with these pressures, like learn what else can The depths of the oceans teach us, like combine it with something that's specific, but yeah. The, the intentions And who's gonna benefit from this kind of mining? Again, it's not in the interest of humanity as a whole. I do not believe. Yeah. And we're we're seeing it on land here in Indonesia. There's a uncontacted tribe living in isolation, and their their forest is being, yeah, that's being destroyed so that they can have EV batteries. You know? It's like, you know, we're yeah. We're a bit of a Okay. I wonder if we're gonna become a smart species. We're supposed to be smart. Anyway, when it comes to the oceans, what do you think our priorities should be when it comes to our leaders, Politicians, business leaders, whoever you think. What Yeah. I think the the first is is the fishes we've talked about. It Has to come from the government who pull out the big mega ships and the the unsustainable fishing methods or they adopt the, change the The the nets. You know, I don't know if you've ever seen you you will have seen them down the beach. I've seen you doing the beach clean up. You know, there's those ones that are so small and you try and And, Paul, and and it keep puts your fingers. They're so fine, you know, when we go diving. Mhmm. Especially at start season, if you've had low season, no diving at the start. All the beautiful reefs are covered in these horrible yeah. They're just destructive. So it's just like sort that part off. So it's a fishing I'd say Fishing as as as a whole in one of them. The next thing is, you know, with regards from sharp sharp point fishing point of view. So last year, when it went through this year, we had the Fire Change UK. So we were able with some other organizations To get the the law changed with regards to import and export of shark fin into and into and out of the UK. Like, people didn't realize You could, have more shark fins. You could go to Hong Kong or wherever and then import it in your bag back into the UK and then go Make chocolate soup. You can add more than you could bring, like smelly cheese back from France or whatever. Like, the the law was, like, quite crazy when we showed it and it was just such such an outdated law. So that was that was brilliant to change. Now A lot of people don't realize that there is still sharp finning that is firstly, that sharp finning is legal still in the last country. And when we say shark finning, for those who don't understand, so any sharks, big or small, scary or little Cute little babies or whatever. Pull them out of the water, slice the fin off. Shark finning is usually them in the body. The carcass is thrown back into the water because Fins stacked up on a boat take up less space. You can get more of the fins, so it's more money, you know, and there are still Fishing boats that get caught with illegal, you know, harvesting of offends because it's illegal in some places, but a lot of places, you can still do that. So one of the first steps, it's not nice, Is this fins attached. So you have to bring the whole body back in. It means then they are killing less sharks. Yep. More sustainable in a way because then the whole of the shark is used. You know, there are a lot of fish, People that do eat sharp steak, you know, people don't realize that sharp steak is actually labeled as different seafood or as different fish. Mahi Mahi is 1. Right? Mahi Mahi, is that shark? Mahi Mahi. Don't think it's Mahi Mahi. My my It's a dolphin. No. That's My mind's just gone blank. We just did a thing about it. But, like, anything, rock rocks rock salmon is 1. Flake flake Is you know, that's a big one in Australia. Because because, when it says dogfish, you know, dogfish are a form of shark. So, Again oh, dogfish. Oh, it's a fish. No. So this this labeling but then you have If the whole shark is being used rather than just the wasteful practice of shark finning, you know, it's the lesser of 2 evils Glad to have him. So this is these are that's you know, the the actual management of shark quotas, Finning, you know, put the the pregnant sharks back into the water. Yeah. We'll think sharks reproduce at the same rate as Normal fish because they are clusters, you know, recording fish. They don't, you know, some species maybe have 2 or 3 babies Every few years, like so it's this keeping the the food chain, the, reproduction cycles going So that the populations can keep recovering. So there's little things that can be done with regards to management. Again, It can never be sustainable, we don't think, but there are ways that could be be managed and better control when fish markets of the endangered species Because I'm that's the big thing in itself and when those fins or sharks are transported to the countries, you know, the Training. We worked with some important, some organizations in, the Emirates in Dubai a few years ago, because The endangered sharks were being mislabeled when they were being sent to Hong Kong. So there's all these strings that could Titan, doc, with regards how the fishing is happening, the quotas, the species, the types. Again, you know, pregnant species or juveniles, you know, pop them back in the water. So there's things but that takes governmental Levels and policies, and then it needs the people at the fish market or in those bits in between, Whether it's customs, you know, they need to be, managed properly as well. And it's huge, Andrea, isn't it? You know? No. That's definitely not simplistic. So they're, I mean, they're the big they're the big things. And then I think it's the the track if we have to say Great. It's the because, yeah, I mean, we could be working on closing down shop in restaurants and all this kind of thing. You know? That that's really gonna make a big difference. Our education, we're hoping with that, but governmental is is your plastic management. Because if you stop making the plastic, then you've not got problems in as many problems in the environment and the ocean that's linking onto the sharks and the other species as well. Yeah. And again, you know, when we talk about the the, the actual climate change and and the effect And the importance of of the oceans in trapping that carbon, you know? It it's When you look into it, the the ocean is just huge in relation to the the climate Problems that we have. So the ocean should be being preserved. The animals within the ocean that trap the carbon and then You know, and this is something that gets thrown up about the all the whaling that's happened over the years. You know, whales, big mammals were trapping Within that carbon, and then it's it's staying in the ocean. So, again, we're talking, what, years back. Obviously, we still got the stuff Happens in the fair amount of places, but 20, 30 years ago, you know, all that's gone on then. And then you look at the rapid Global warming. I know some people would deny that, but, yeah, like, balance. It's this balance. Night nature. Like you said before, get back To your nature, the natural, living from the land, natural stuff. We use the toxins. Yeah. Yeah. With all these things. The the the whales, you know, so their their ability to sort of take onboard carbon, and when they die, they drop to the bottom of the ocean and it settles there, which is another reason you don't wanna unsettle the bottom of the ocean because a lot of the carbon is of of our you know, for millennia has been stored there. But a a recent, one I was reading about was krill, These tiny, tiny little it's wild food. Right? And, we're we're taking out so much from the ocean, and the actual market value of krill for fish oil and how how it's being used. It's tiny by comparison to if we left it in the ocean because the the poo of a krill drops to the bottom of the ocean, and then it and then that's that's how we get rid of, you know, some of the carbon. So this is, I mean, there's so many simple things that we just need to be doing. I mean, it's not nothing simple, but, Yeah. But we can make it simple. There there are simple steps is what you mean, isn't it? Like, just take those simple steps And make it a habit that it just becomes a normal part of your life and it adds up. Because all these things that have been going on have added up now And now it's at that critical point. So if you can just keep doing those little bits with your family, the kids, then we have to stay positive that That is hope. That there's some something good coming from it within the Yeah. That we know that that's that's lurking. It's hard to word it, isn't it, Andrea? It's so hard to word it. You do a better job than I do. No. I'm becoming I'm becoming experienced. Right? But, yeah, no. It's it it I have this sort of you know? So recently, Oxfam released its new report saying that 1% of the world's population are responsible for 60% of emissions. And while the report is correct in that the billionaires and the millionaires are excessive in their in their emissions creation, the thing that everyone keeps missing It's that nearly 50% of the of the world's population is now in the middle class. And middle class people, we eat more meat, we eat more seafood, we We eat more you know, we buy more packaging, food in packages, and stuff like that. So the idea that what I do doesn't make a difference, it does make a difference. And, You know, what I really wanna get the message out is we need to recruit a 1000000000 people to come together and to commit to massively reducing our impact and working out how we can be back getting back in balance with the Earth and the oceans. And, we need to clean it up, and we need to bring everybody we know on board so that we can get to half the population of the planet and and let all of us, you know, just start to live. You know, like Like, we actually want a future because some of the stuff that I'm seeing so you've said a lot of these things, but just to sort of nail it down. So one of the things I always wanna do with Climate Courage because a lot of the conversation that happens on the on the environment across the board is very complicated, technical. They're using words and measurements that most people don't And so what I've always tried to do is try to make sense of the complicated stuff so I can simplify it so people can understand. And the most important thing is, You know, what can we do about it? That's what everybody always ask me. What can we? So first of all, join the 1,000,000,000 moment. Let's recruit a 1000000000 people, and let's get going. But 2, like, So, I mean, the first thing that you you said there right up front was single use plastics are massive. So what are those 3 things? You know? Let's wrap wrap that up again nice and tight. So with regards, single use plastics or, Any 3 any 3, you know Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, we're using single use plastics, reducing your seafood consumption, supporting local businesses, you know, and being more sustainable with it. I think they were the 3 key key things that I said. And then with that with along with that, you know, supporting organizations that are doing good because we need, From our point of view, not only, you know, funds are needed to keep us being able to go into schools and produce materials, you know, all this Understood. But the ripple effect of the education, as I said, people don't realize how important sharks are at the end of the day. Like the apex predator. You get rid of them. There's there's still the fear from the jaws movie Yeah. And all these other rubbish ones that have kind of come from before that I do not watch. You know? Mhmm. There needs to be an understanding and appreciation for sharks, which rolls then into the appreciation of the ocean, which becomes, you know, mother earth as a whole. So the education, you know, we give out books for free anywhere, in the world, and that inspires Buyers children to learn more. The the the parents message and say why? I I didn't have a clue about this and why it's so important To to, you know, to teach our kids this, and I need to know this. So to get people to care and all the things that you've you've touched on, it's about caring. Yeah. Part of it. Yeah. Don't bury your head with them. Can't take those steps to do something. You know, and we bring in the trash and the Stick into these books as well, but just say, you know, stop using singly spastic. Go and do a beach clean up, like get involved, small steps. Invite us to your school. You know, we do online sessions as well because we need the next generation to do what we're doing. You know? Well, saying that we can't keep doing all that we're doing. We could do so much more if we had other people working with us, and we would love to have some Mini shark guardians that we can train to do this for the ripple effect that that their power, Well, this is why we would do stuff with schools. The older kids, we teach them, a shark guardian ambassador program. So they learn the education, then they go into other schools or pass our education down throughout their school. Like, I always say this, do not underestimate the power of 1. Just that 1 person Yeah. Who takes that bit of information that doesn't each up into or doesn't go By the sustain we're not even touched on sustainable fashion, but that just popped into my mind. That's not that's not all of it. It's all part of it. Yeah. But it is all part of it. Right? Yeah. Again, it's choice and, you know, when you said about this middle class that that's the numbers, you know, they're also that that's also the the population that has Choice. You can decide whether you have your cocktail with 2 straws in on the weekend or you can decide to put your metal straw in your bag So you don't get caught short. It's it's just it's that's where it becomes simple. Sometimes you're in the supermarket, you say, oh, you don't have choice. I take my reusable bags to Makro. They put the the prices on on the thing. The bags are knackered, but, you know, they've been used, like, probably hundreds of times now. You don't need to get it in plastic. Everybody did that. That would that would, you know, make a massive difference. So, yeah, focus on your your environmental impact. Single use plastic straws, the whole shebang. Reduce your seafood consumption. You wanna do that for your body Anyway, but also just, like, you know, let's keep it where it should be. Fish your friends, not food at the end of the day. Yeah. You know you know you know, one of the one of the things that really spun me out. So after the pandemic and we went through a terrible time, you know, tourist destination, Big suffering during the pandemic. People lost their jobs, their livelihoods. People really struggled. It was it was very hard. Yeah. As a as a as an empath, it was very difficult for me to to go through it, just knowing that people were struggling so much. But Some something that's happened so and part of what I learned in that time is all of these luxury islands out out from where we are, with these big 5, 6 star resorts on them. There's no waste disposal to those islands. None. So, basically, whatever goes there and he's shoes there gets dumped there. And if you go out into the forest, go on a walk hike or a bike ride or something, You'll see the burning pits. So, obviously, glass bottles can't burn. You know, the plastic bottles obviously release all sorts of toxins. So, you know, what you're saying about the waste, you know, like so one of the things that's really come to to the fore is these plastic cups with a plastic lid, a plastic straw, and often, they come in a single cup plastic bag. So 4 pieces of plastic in 1 drink. Right? I won't sit in a restaurant if they don't serve me a drink in a in a glass or in a in a cup. Yeah. They've got a sink they can wash it. But on these islands, on these small islands, they're using these plastic cups. Even better, they're using the plastic. To go out and have a look. Seriously, it's everywhere now, and it's like it's like this surge of it. And I'm like, they've gotta sink. You can and it's actually ultimately, it's cheaper for you in the long run. And it's laziness. I say it's laziness. I took my parents. We've just been visiting. We went to this, you know, beautiful Spot where you have your photos and everyone's there, you know, the influences and whatever. And, I ordered a shirt and again can I have can we have it in glass a glass please? Yeah. Of course you can. Everybody else is there with the plastic. It's like they can do this, and again this is that choice that you can ask and it's And you don't always remember and it comes and you're like, oh my gosh. But, you know, again, even if it's 1 out of 10, that's massive. But it's disgraceful, and this is where it's got to come from the government level as well, that they've got to do that, that no more plastic And that that would make a big difference to Asia. Huge. Massive. Yeah. But these places where there's no rubbish so if you use plastic in these places And you don't take it back to the main line with you, it's going to be dumped in the environment and burnt, and it's gonna end up in the ocean, and they break down. There's no possibility of recycling. I mean, you know, the whole single use plastic bans that we're seeing in Europe, you know, straws, bags, that sort of stuff. When they start banning plastic soft drink bottles and water bottles, then I believe that they're actually committed to getting rid of single use plastic because they're not they're not doing that. They're not they're they're not going up against the big the big plastic Polluters on the planet, Coca Cola, PepsiCo, you know, yeah. It isn't it. Yeah. Yeah. Who let And and the fact that we leave, we need to have those plastic we don't I mean, that's the the mindset shift as well. But I think, you know, for a lot of people who are really focused on this stuff, the fact that we're not even there. We haven't even we haven't even we've gotten worse. We haven't even touched, the waste. And and for I think for a lot of people around the world, they don't they're they're not seeing it like we see it. You know, the title turns of the season that bring in more rubbish. I remember the 1st time I saw waste on the beach in Phuket was back in 2009. Wasn't that bad. By 2017, it was in the off season for 6 months. The beach was getting trashed, and every year it got more and more and more. Now it's all year round. Yeah. Have you noticed that in Krabi as well? Yeah. Yeah. It's still worse with the monsoons, But now always. You know, when we when we choose a location for a trash hero cleanup, it's just like, well, anywhere we go. Just walk out the front door. Yeah. Yeah. You know what makes it less in some places is that the resorts go out and sweep in front of their resort, don't they? Yep. That's That's the only difference. It's still there, and that's still just sometimes buried under some leaves or whatever. I mean, that's you know, these Higher end hotels, then this is where the choice comes as well. Choose the sustainable ones. There there are certain, Travel sustainability things you can choose. I don't know how, you know, I'm I'm quite skeptical of those. I've never explored them. I have a friend actually who works within the Travel industry, and she's trying to recommend sustainable, and she speaks to them directly. What what are you doing? How are you reducing your impact? Toxicity, plastic, the whole shebang. So that is something else that people could could do, you know, sustainable travel, sustainable tourism. Unfortunately, when people go on holiday, they don't want to have to think about it. But I think you have to. You have to. No. Absolutely. I I I to. I know I know quite a lot of the hotel GMs here, and, they they all I'm committed to doing what they can, and they do beach cleanups and and, you know, this amazing amount of work that goes on. But one of the struggles is, the infrastructure isn't here for the waste. You know? Yeah. So what we what we need to do is a global investment in waste infrastructure that's environmentally friendly, and we need to get a handle on it. And and, you know, it's the mafia owns the waste industry, and it always has. So we we need we need to change that because, countries in this part of the world get blamed for the waste, but countries are shipping to this part of the world. You know, Australia has just, started shipping its waste again, did you know that, after a big failure? I do. Yeah. So they got they got these warehouses full of this stretchy to plastic, and, it it was a complete recycling failure so that it's, now now it's shipping overseas again. But but there is no away. Right? No. It's not gonna go anywhere, is it? It just piles up in a different country's backyard. Oh, wow. And and and then the water brings it to you. So, you know, you might not be able to see it because it's a microplastic. You make You do your thing. You do the little bits. Every little bit helps that. Well, I always say this thing. We say in our presentations, if you think one thing or 1 person cannot make a difference, just try spending a room a night in a room with a mosquito. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have about that. We're forming 1 1 mosquito. Like, you really can make a difference, and that's what we you know, that's our big thing at Shark Guard is just take those small steps. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone that we need a 1,000,000,000 people doing it. Alright. So final question. So I think we've we've got a sense that you're a positive person, but, you know, you're seeing a lot of impacts on the frontline. You would have seen a lot of change in 10 years. So how do you stay positive most of the time. Yeah. My little girls. Yeah. Because if I if I don't, then what chance have they got and what and and got But there are kids after that, like that, that's my why and my drive and I keep coming back to that even when it's hard, even when you think you, You know, and you head against the wall, and I see the fire and the spark in them, and then and then then I see it in in schools when you see you know, Again, sometimes it goes over some heads and it's the same if you're speaking to somebody whether you're online, whether you're out and about, whatever, friends, non friends, whatever. There's, you know, there's a response sometimes from someone and you're like it's hit, it's sat, they're gonna do something and That's that's it because you never know in a crowd. You know, if we've got a room of 300 kids, there might be another Liz and Brandon in there, you know. There might be another Andrea Edwards in there. So that's the drive for my personal kids, but the kids, we have to do better. Oh, we absolutely do. And I I you know, I hear a lot of the men sort of sit in the doom basket, and, and and they make a lot of sense me, what they're saying, the information they're sharing, all that sort of stuff. And anyone who talks differently, they sort of go, you're kidding yourself? You know? And I'm like, Can't do this. I'm I'm I'm listening to what you've got to say. I'm I'm not disagreeing with what you're gonna say, but I'm never gonna ever stop fighting. And I don't think I don't think we actually understand what we're capable of doing if we can come together and and give it up a shot, and it's on Massive scale. You know? Like, all these, you know, all these countries like America, Australia, Norway, we're in the we we go into overshoot in the first quarter of the year. So to me, the most obvious thing everyone in those sort of countries that lives that lifestyle does is reduce their impact by 75% because That's what we need to do is get out of overshoot. Right? We're taking too much from the Earth. So let's work out how to do it and believe that we can do it. And, You know, the data's not pretty, but, we gotta try. You know, Kevin Anderson, the scientist, he sort of finished one of his big sort of honest Speech as he goes, we just gotta try. And I agree. We just gotta try. We gotta do it for our kids and as parents. I think there's more of an obligation on us to be trying harder than anyone else Yeah. To make sure we're gonna give our kids a chance because isn't that what being a parent is? Yeah. What's the what's the point of spending a lot of money on their no. Exactly. We're spending all this money on their education. Earth be. Maybe there is out there. I mean, you know, these, alien visits or whatever that that that they are proving that are out there, you know, it makes She wonder if there's something being lined up. Is there a, you know, oasis out there on another planet that we're gonna be given a second chance? I don't think so. Yeah. What do you mean? Out there. I don't think we're gonna get because we've messed up. So Yeah. But that that I mean, we've already we've we've already trashed space. So, well, we're gonna go to another another planet that same as Earth and just trash that. You know? And I think it's Yeah. It's more about learning the lessons that we've, you know, We said that nature can bounce back. Absolutely. It can. And, you say very quickly. So take the steps. Try. Like you said, try. Make this step. Small steps. That's what keeps me hopeful that that the message is gonna land with people, and they just do those little Thanks. And don't and don't feel scared or embarrassed. You know, if you're out with your friends and you say no to the plastic cup of the straw and nobody else does, like, Yeah. This is for you and your future. Like, they do the same, and the next time they will pop in or they will follow. Like, if I can get my my dad and his, you know, Sixty, 78 year old swimming people who used to have their cup of coffee after swimming. Was it 3 or 4 years ago, and we were just like, why you having these views? You know, why aren't you using these usable cuts? Oh, because they give it in these. Oh, well, now they've all got their own and they give it and they have it filled it. Like, you know, it seemed hard, but they made a difference, and they're still using those. You know, 3 or 4 years later, they are making a difference, and that's what everybody can do. Take your reusable bottles when you go and get your drink. Say no to the little Yeah. It has bags. Back bags. You know? It's yeah. Right. Ring. Oh, yeah. So much. So much. Yeah. It's it's hard it's hard to be around it. When you when you when you see it, you can't unsee it. No. And, and it's hard and because you don't wanna make Anyone feel ashamed, but I don't know I don't know what you know? Because my thing is, how can you not see? Yeah. How can you not see? So we are the only species on the planet that has waste. Everything else in nature is is recycled. Right? We're the only species, and now we've got So much waste. It's gonna double by the end of this decade. It's gonna triple by 2050. Some people are even saying it's gonna be more. I can't even imagine what double the waste on the beach is gonna look like compared to what we've already seen. Can you imagine triple? You know, just you just like, if you just, you know, just go to one of those beaches that gets trashed and look at what we're doing. You know? It's it's shocking, but thank you. This has been such an awesome conversation, and it's gone so much more than just sharks and ocean health, but it is, I mean, I think the point is it's all interlinked, you know, and Yeah. We all we all just need to reconnect. I call it nature consciousness. You know? People are talking about human consciousness. We need to rise up, but I actually think we need to redevelop nature consciousness, which is that deep connection with earth and nature, and and and appreciating that we're part of the cycle of life, not separate and superior to it. And, We we can all do that, you know, and stop feeling useless. So many people feel useless, and it's just we just need a 1,000,000,000 people changing. And Talk about what you're doing. Talk about what you're changing. Share it with humor, with passion. You know? When I do those beach cleanups, my husband's grumpy as hell. We do those rope monsters. Right? It's so much hard work. He and it is so hot, and he's so grumpy. And, I'm like, ah, doing my little videos. And, I just wanna punch him in the face because I was like, come on. You need to make this look pleasurable so other people will wanna do it. But but, really, we do. And he's, he's not really getting the message on that one. But, but, yeah, I mean, we're we're you know, just share it, you know, inspire other people. Every time we do a beach cleanup, people come and join us. And, it's usually local local Thai people, or they come and put stuff that they pick up off the beach in our in our bags. So it does inspire. And then the next stage, of course, we need a global agreement on on managing this waste. Yeah. So, you know you know, the sort of infrastructure Singapore's got, we could get the budgets to establish these sort of incinerators that don't release emissions. I I know and I need to double check on that, but Yeah. And we need to get them established here and in the Philippines and in Vietnam and in in Nigeria and across, you know, across the global south. So all this waste has got somewhere to go. You know? And then be inventive about the solutions where waste becomes an asset, not Not not waste. Right? So yeah. So it's having the people in government that are gonna make those decisions, isn't it? Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. So that that's the extra choice but the only the only way they're gonna make that decision is if we force them to make that decision, if we vote for people who are capable of making that decision. And right now, I don't think politicians in the world believe that we're we're we're enough of us are behind that sort of way of thinking. And until we change, they're not gonna change, and they're not gonna change until businesses change. So we're all in this sort of loop together. Right? But I actually think it starts with us when we start to buy less, Travel less, pollute less. You know, when we just massively shrink our impact, it's gonna have a ripple effect on everything, business, economy, politics, everything, and that's when we're gonna start seeing change. So I think the power's in the middle. Yeah. And we need to claim it. That's the hope. Keep doing what you're doing because that's that's what we need. Yeah. We We're all gonna do our bit. Right? Whatever wherever you place yourself in the in this fight. Alright, Liz. Thank you. Thank you for your work, and thank you for being here and being such a bright and bubbly guest. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Have a great weekend, everyone. Bye. Bye bye. There you go. Bye.