Climate Courage: become a sustainability warrior at work

Do you want to drive meaningful change while doing your job, so you can contribute to the global crisis humanity is facing? Are you willing to look at the opportunities you can embrace to drive change and create awareness in your organization? If the answer is yes, this show is for you. 

Meet Andrew Buay, Vice President of Group Sustainability for SingTel and Optus, and he started his journey into sustainability more than a decade ago, when many told him it was not a wise career move. Today he is a sustainability leader and mentor, an executive leadership coach, a mentor to social impact start-ups, and a board advisor in social services and tertiary education.

In this conversation, we’re going to go back to the beginning to understand why he decided to go this way, the path he took to leading in sustainability, including the pushback he faced. We’ll discuss the work happening today and the opportunities looking ahead, as well as finishing up with some hot tips for anyone looking to step into a more active role to help their business become more sustainable.

This is going to be a great conversation, full of actionable insights, so join us live or watch it anytime. There will be fantastic take-aways for all. 

Climate Courage is a fortnightly Livestream and podcast published on Uncommon Courage, where we go big picture on the climate crisis and focus on the actions you and I can take to be part of the solution. Whether individual action, community action, or national/global action - every single one of us can be part of ensuring a live-able future for our children and grandchildren. We owe them that!

#ClimateCourage #UncommonCourage 

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to Climate Courage. My name is Andrea Edwards, and I am absolutely delighted to welcome Andrew Boy, who is the vice president of group sustainability for Singtel and Optus. Welcome, Andrew. Thank you, Andrew. I'm looking forward to the conversation today. Yeah. That's great to meet you, and a shout out to Avi Loren who introduced us. He said we should meet. And, We did meet a few weeks ago, and it was it was a great conversation. So I'm looking forward to sharing it more broadly. But, Before we kick off on your sustainability journey, I thought it might be interesting for people to understand your professional journey up until you decided to make the jump and become a sustainability advocate. So do you wanna give us a little bit of background? Sure. Well, I have been with the Singtel Group for now thirty Tree going on 34 years. 1st job when I graduated. I'm a arts graduate from the National University of Singapore, but, started off in the international networks and engineering group at Singtel, but, have had a very diverse career across the region. Everything from, enterprise sales, marketing, venture capital, investments, m and a strategy. I was also the CIO of Optus, couple of years back, 12 years back. So very diverse career, but, very enjoyable role, and it's an industry that really has a great impact on everything. Yeah. It's, it's unusual to hear such of a a diversity in in a career working in Asia in particular. Like, people tend to sort of stick down down a narrow path, so I was already impressed with that. So then It was about 10 years ago that you decided it was time to step into sustainability. So do you wanna tell us sort of, you know, what was the thinking behind it? What what were you seeing in the in the world that you know, if you think 10 years ago, a lot of people were still not paying attention at all. What's the role and what have you been doing? But also, I'd love to know more about the pushback that you experienced at the time. So there's some 3 sections to this. No worries. Well, I think, actually, my career into sustainability probably started a lot earlier. Right? So I think there were, I would say 3 shaping things in my life that did open some insights and did shape my perspectives. And, the first probably started even when I was in high school. I'm a high school dropout and made good, I would say, and, through the help of people. And, you know, that Situation of early vulnerability and being helped back to get back in to be successful has always, number 1 left me for lens that, you know, our role is not for ourselves, and you could help others to be successful. And that's always given me a lens of helping others, which is also another Side hustle of a hat I wear. I'm also a leadership and talent coach, in the same last 10 years since I've had the sustainability hat. But also when I was in Philippines, as the chief operating officer at Globe Telecom, which is our Philippines operations, mobile operations, you know, I could really see how, in a poor country at a time like Philippines, I think it was like a GDP of 250 US dollars in, per capita, every time you roll out the network into a regional or rural town, you actually see a lot of, you know, Stimulation of economy, of jobs, society, and society uplifts. Right? So you can definitely see at the time it was quite a shaping experience that The nature of our industry actually has a very big social impact. So that was the social lens in the journey. When I went over to, Australia, in 2007, I started to get a lot more exposure to natural disasters. And in fact, a big turning point was in around 2011 or 2012. Australia had a very massive cyclone I hit Queensland. And I remember listening, Tim, to our contact center. You know, it was a recording of our people Supporting staff that were hit by the natural disasters. And, you know, they're desperately looking for family members who are lost in the disaster zone. They're asking our contact center staff, could we see them on our networks? And that was really a realization that The issue of, natural disasters, especially climate related, had such a significant impact on at a human scale level. And, again, the role of the telco and resilience on the network during natural disasters, and in a way, our contribution to the problem, because You're a huge energy guzzler of sorts. So, again, you know, just 2 to 3 sort of life's experience and insights, Really made me start the thing. Is there a bigger role that we could play as a telco in this broader spectrum of sustainability? But again, In 2011, as I was having all these thoughts and even in 2012 when I was speaking to the leaders, sustainability wasn't much of a topic. And, you know, I I was successful. I was at MD level in the company, and I did have leaders with the right intention saying, you know, we is this really what you wanna do? Is it Could be career suicide. Are you losing losing momentum in in in your leadership? And, there was some doubt at the beginning, but I think they've backed me and, you know, since been able to really expand the role over the last couple of years. And, of course, today, sustainably, it's such a big topic, But it wasn't always that weak at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes courage to just be one of the early leaders in the field, right, when when most people I can't say it was courage. Maybe it was ignorance. Well, yeah. They they got they they go close together, don't they? Gotcha. Yeah. No. I I remember that. My friends were talking for for a good 12 months afterwards. You couldn't get access to bananas in Australia because of that cyclone. It was so big. You know? But it the impact but the the telco comment is really important. The fire in Maui, you know, there was a lot of talk about how the telco lines went down there and and and how the communication channels with were were a big failure in in multiple ways. So there's nothing more important, and and you look around this region and in the global south, and the telco line's still above ground. So that obviously puts more even more pressure on Telco. Alright. So you convinced everybody, and you've you you moved ahead. So I just wanna share I'd I'd just love to hear you share because I know during the pandemic, there was also a lot, that you were doing from a social, perspective. So what what's what's some of the work that you've been doing, and, you know, what sort of a difference are you making? And and as you look ahead, how how what more would you like to be doing? Yeah. Well, during the pandemic, actually, apart from the role of sustainability, I was also asked to be the, acting vice president of Just HR at that time. And so I also had the extreme exposure into a HR function during a COVID crisis, which is all about People and keeping safe and well. But I'll say, you know, one of the big things at that time again, it's realization. Right? When you go into a COVID Situation has never happened before. People go into lockdown. Everyone's gotta go home, work from home, study from home. And in a place like Australia, where you think everyone's got Broadband and mobile connectivity, you discover they don't. You discover there were students, and you hear students who went home and they couldn't connect to online classrooms. People were at home, and they didn't have mobile coverage, perhaps, and, they couldn't connect to work. So, you know, again, it brings to bear Some of these extreme situations that really says how important the nature of a particular industry. It's not just the telco industry, but any industry for that matter In its societal impact, whether it's up or down. And one of the things we did at the time was to, launch a program called, Optus Donate Your Data. And it was more launched not because of COVID, but we piloted, finding a way for our customers to donate unused data on their mobile plans, Where we will then pull it as a company and match it, and provide free mobile access to vulnerable in the community. And we had launched that in December 2019 as a Pilot. And by chance, when COVID hit, that area just became such a huge opportunity. And, you know, since then, we've had, almost half of our Customer based donate data, and we've helped over 50,000, you know, vulnerable with access to these free lines. And that's just an example of how you can integrate the nature of your business with working to customers and creating a positive social impact. Actually, you can bring it all together. Yeah. I I I think that's such a gorgeous story. My sister teaches at a school where a lot of the a lot of the kids are from migrant families, And so they'll be living, say, in 2 bedroom houses with, you know, 8 people. And, they they had one telephone for all of the kids to use to access their education, so it's completely impossible. But the other side was the elderly. There were a lot of A lot of communication even, you know, when I was in Singapore, you had all of the interactions were a mobile interaction when you just to get into a shopping center, you know, and someone in their eighties might not even have a mobile phone. And so, you know and I I I really brought to bear, you know, the imbalance. So do you do that just in Australia, or is that something that you're taking across the region? Well, in fact, you got to contextualize because in A place like Australia at the time, we're looking at more the vulnerable youth. We're looking at women who are suffering from domestic violence and, you know, gotta flee to home without anything, ID, phone, and so forth. Because sometimes the phone access is the medium of, tracking and abuse. Right? But in Singapore, because you mentioned the seniors, in fact, Singapore's challenge was slightly different. We have a lot of live alone elderly and seniors, and they are not digitally savvy, And we're also disconnected. So, you know, with the benefit of the insights from the Optus donate your data, we actually launched The Singtel site, Go More, Donate Your Data, where we got Go More, which is our secondary mobile brand for youth to have, again, similarly customers donate unused data, When we pulled it, where we gave them free access to, vulnerable, let alone seniors, to give them mobile access. But, of course, when you give, seniors who have never used a a smartphone mobile access, it's like putting a match in a kid who's gonna light our next fire. Right? And what we did was we also launched, Singtel Digital Silvers program. So it's not only about giving you the phone, Giving you mobile access, but we got volunteers to go out to senior activity centers, or seniors will come into the retail shops before they would open to help educate, the seniors in terms of how they use the phone, how they use the features, how they take advantage of it, but to use it safe to Know how to detect scams, to be able to, you know, use passwords and things like that. So it's not just about access, but you've also got, enable the knowledge so that there's safety and responsibility, in the use of your products. And so even when we talk about the Positive impact of our sector in society. One of the things I was always very mindful about, which is a A bit of another trigger in how we've gone about our programs is every sector, including the telecoms industry, has what I call the unintended consequences of The goodness of your industry, and I involve case unintended consequences of what is a great technology in industry with things like cyber security, data privacy, Cyberbullying, device addiction, social media addiction, and actually, as a company, we also have a responsibility to play on The unintended consequences are not just on the positive side. Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely. So when you when you think about it from a A climate perspective and, you know, we're seeing more extreme weather events all over the world. And, you know, in Australia, they're they're they're bracing themselves for the next fire season, which is supposed to be horrific. We're right across the global south. We're getting ready for the next heat season with the records expected to peak. I've seen that we could be potentially reaching 2.2 or 2.3 degrees global warming by February next year in 2024. That's obviously not, permanent. It's just, we're just gonna reach that peak, but, you know, 2 degrees is the end of the end of the reefs. Right? So it's a very serious path that we're on at the moment. When you when you think of telcos, what what what do you see the role that they can play in in in what's happening and how the how can they help, you know, to to address some of the big issues? Obviously, communication is gonna be at the center of everything. So Well, a couple of things. I think, firstly, even though you talk about average temperatures, we've got to be very mindful that, average sometimes is very deceptive Because in the specific at a specific time, it could be 10 degrees above the long run average. Maybe just for a couple of days. Right? So you actually it's the extremities that are greater in its impact on both from environmental as well as from a People perspective. But again, similarly, one of the big things that that a couple of dimensions I suppose, you know, from a Telco perspective and the role we play. Firstly, is really making sure the nature of our networks are resilient against not just the current, but the future Effects of climate change, again, because of the mission criticality of telecom networks and services. So already back in 2014, we were probably one The 1st companies in Asia where we were doing a long range climate scenario planning and scenario modeling, Where we were looking CSR, the Australian research, climate research organization to take their global scientific models of, You know, floods intensity, increased temperatures, bush fire propensity, and apply that at a granular level to where our networks, well built. And looking at whether, the networks would be exposed to floodings or bushfires, Not just today, but into the future. And as a result of that, we actually started doing quite a lot early what we call adaptation and mitigations. You know, we would be, for example, building cell sites with the equipment room no longer on the ground, but located maybe sometimes 12 to 15 meters on top of the tower. So there's bushfires and floods happen. Actually, the sensitive equipment are located a lot higher. Or when we build new equipment exchanges, we're already building a couple of meters higher Then the road. Right? Because you know, potentially, in future, you get that self flooding. So resilience of the network is one area That we can do. The other 2nd area, obviously, communications again is key to, you know, the lifeline in a sense for communities connect, families to connect, emergency services to Connect, but also the ability to notify people when they are these sort of things. Right? And I think if you combine, tech communications with other types of Technologies like remote sensing. 2 years ago, we, undertook a funding of a research by the Australian National University, And you, where we were supporting them to do advanced, sensing visual image imaging and remote sensing technology to be able to do things like early bushfire detection way before a bushfire breakout. Right? So if you can apply some of this advanced technology with real life Feedback to be able to then notify customers or the public way before risk happens, you actually are protecting community as So these are all the potential. We're only at the early stage, I think, of scratching the surface of the the opportunity, but I think that's that's the bigger role we also have to play in this whole climate equation. Now, of course, the last area, I suppose, is we just got to be able to find ways to grow and support the network without growing our energy and emissions, And that part, the decarbonization of our network, transition to renewal, renewable energy when it's available, those are also initiatives we have to undertake. Yeah. Beyond, Singtel and Optus, just the the broader telco industry, and I'm not asking you to criticize any of your competition or anything like that. How how how prepared so, You know, you stepped into the adaptation, plans early on. But how do you how prepared so because this let let me give you some background. This this is one of the areas that really alarms me for this region because, you know, all all all of the wiring's still above the ground. We're expecting these heat extremes. You know, we've heard in India that the electricity in the telco lines have collapsed in the heat when it's gotten too hot. And we know it's gonna be hotter than it's ever been in the next 12 months, 24 months. Right? How how prepared do you think the telco sector is as an industry in in in in doing what You guys have done is is is are people operating at a speed now, or do you think there's still a lot of people not doing what they need to do to prepare? I think the telco industry, it's a whole spectrum. So you do have telcos around the world that we ourselves look up To the best practice, but, of course, you also have telcos who are earlier in the climate journey. Right? So you do have the whole spectrum. And in fact, I think, again, it's important to recognize while we do compete, at a global level, the whole industry has a role to play. And so, you know, the we are fortunate because we have quite a strong global association, the GSMA, sort of the global mobile association, Which brings all the global telco and mobile operators together. And through those of industry bodies, we do try To bring best practice in cost sharing and knowledge. Right? So one example is, Singtel is one of the first companies in Asia outside of Japan to set Long range science based emissions reduction target. It was 2017. It's unheard of in Asia. Mhmm. But in that example where even though we were leading, and there were European, 2 or 3 European telcos who also were leading in some of these climate projection exercises. We decided to get together as a initial, body under GSMA to form a task force to then start to work towards helping other telcos and mobile operators, You know, also similarly look at, understand your footprint, and set targets at the industry level. In fact, we were the 1st industry to Come up with an aligned industry based SBTI emissions reduction target and methodology. Okay? So that that's an example where it allows the leveling up, of, you know, the whole value chain, and doing collaboratively because I think we've just got to recognize that, as big as each company is, Our impact is really quite small, but if we did it Yeah. Collectively, you definitely have quite a significant impact. So after that, we've gone on to look at everything from Circular economy, engaging suppliers collectively on their emissions, looking at things like, climate, adaptation, so forth at the industry level, because, obviously, there's a lot of best practice that can be shared across. So I do I'm very optimistic, because even though we do Compete pretty intensively in in our markets. It's quite been quite collaborative. When I run, in the past, I used to run business round tables For corporates to understand how we went about setting emissions targets, or doing climate adaptation, or climate risk modeling, and so of our invite Singapore corporates and and, in the audience would be our competitors. And people ask me, why is your competitor? I say, why not? Because, you know, we've all got to level up if we're gonna Soft some of these problems of the world. Yeah. That that's, that's inspiring to hear because, you know, industry wide participation and collaboration is in all industries. Right? It's so important. But the communications sector, I think, is one of the most important as as we move forward, so that's that's really good to hear. Alright. So let's to spend the bulk of this on, just having a conversation because one of the questions I get asked all the time is what can I do to act on climate change? And, You know, it's like, where do you even begin? I mean, I always say start at home, reduce your impact, you know. If we can all reduce our impact, so that's our consumption, our energy use, everything, by 75% across the board. And if we can get 3,800,000,000 middle class people across the world, 32%, I think it is, that I'm in Asia. We can all just reduce, massively reduce. And it's gonna obviously impact the economy, but that's where we are now. Right? So, but for people working in professional organizations, especially in Asia where there's still very much a hierarchy at play. People wanna do something. They wanna be part of something bigger. They they can see the challenge, especially the younger people. Let's let's sort of get stuck into What can they do? Where's the opportunity? How do they address it? How do they talk to their bosses? You know, because, I mean, I've had bosses in my life that, You know, they're just completely not even open to the conversation. So you were senior when you started, which helps, but what what's your advice? Yeah. Well, when I started, 10 years ago, there was very little literature. There was very little information and knowledge that was out there. Right? I think it's very different Today, I would say, even if you say, hey, you know, go on the Internet and go on chat GPT, you could pull out a lot of Pretty good information. Pretty insightful information to help educate yourself on everything from climate change, emissions, to To circle economy, e waste, you know, depending on sector and so forth. So I'll say the first thing is, if you're really interested, put your money where your mouth is. There's so much knowledge and information out there that you can actually learn at both a basic and an advanced level. Right? Mhmm. Stage 1, Basic knowledge foundations. I think the 2nd area we felt, and I think that's what has allowed us to be successful. Because even though I started at the senior level, we just built the knowledge that we could, and we just applied the knowledge to, Initially, in areas that we were in control of. Right? So, again, when you think of sustainability, I get a lot of people coming to me. And, Andrew, do you have a role? Are you hiring? And I said, no. I actually Don't want you in sustainability. You're an engineer. You're an IT person, a marketeer, a finance person. If you can yourself with some of the basic fundamental knowledge, And where emissions comes from, etcetera. Every role has a role to play. Right? Mhmm. The finance side Could be looking at, finding a way to implement things like in in Singapore. We implemented internal carbon pricing, where the finance role leads The shaping and the pricing of emissions into the business when they make investment decisions. Or you have in IT, if you're in IT and you understand where emissions comes from, so it's From energy or you've got e waste of old laptops and things like that. You can make a decision whether you put your servers in your data center or maybe you move to the cloud, which Could be a lot more emissions efficient. Or if you're an engineer, for example, the same thing. Right? If you understand the effects of climate change, would you design it to build greater resilience against Climate action. Right? Or if you're an engineer, that, is generating a lot of, old equipment, Are you managing the equipment through proper recycling and reuse Mhmm. Or redeployment? Is this so I give the example because once you get the basic knowledge, Which is not rocket science. You actually start to internalize how you can apply in your day job, and it doesn't really need you selling it to the boss. Go and get the small things done. It's a bit like my daughter. You talked about, the the young generation. My daughter once during the, you know, days of Climate protests. You're saying that? I'm going to the city of Sydney. There's a climate protest. You know, I believe so strongly in climate change. I'm gonna make my voice heard collectively. And I said, why is it you just never turn off your light when you leave the room? You know, it's personal action. I think you start with that, And when you can see the outcomes and others can see the little outcomes from your little action, then you're walking the top, and that actually says a lot more than Just trying to advocate for things. Yeah. You know what? This this is probably really worth a a a deeper dive into the into the roles. Right? So, I was just saying, today, I think Google needs their their water use to keep their data centers cool is is is increasing by something like 60%. It was a fizz This .org piece I I I was just glancing at before, and I'll put it in my weekend reads. But, you know, a lot of people don't think about, you know, data center. So when we got my so I don't update my phone. I try and keep my phones for 5 years, and then I try and make sure they go somewhere where they're they're useful. But in Singapore, when I got my phone, the only phone available to me because there was a shortage during the pandemic, the only phone available had 1 terabyte of data on it. Right? And I know how much data, how many emissions data creates, so, I think one of the things we can all do is is is reduce go on our phones and go go into our video files and our photo files and delete, delete, delete, delete, and go on to our PCs. Remember the days when we first started working? And, you every time you moved, you'd get a floppy disk where you could put a couple of documents on it, but otherwise, you lost all your data. Right? But now we Just got cumulative data buildups, you know, in over 20 years of a career. I mean, the terabytes of data that we store so individual stuff we can do. Right? But someone working in a data center. How do they solve that? You know, because I I I was working at Microsoft when, you know, we I think we got a terabyte of data as part of an office subscription, and that was a selling point. But it's not a selling point anymore because it's, It it's taking energy. Right? So someone working in a data center can how do we how do we solve that? But then someone in marketing needs to just work out what's the communication about that. But, also, there's a lot of content around marketing as a profession and how it needs to change, so it's tapping into our worst Fizz, you know, that's what marketing is doing, and it's gotten better and better at it, but it's not a good thing. So but let's let's look through it. Like, obviously, the C level execs have got a role, but let's look at the front job functions. So have you got any thoughts in marketing? You've I know you've been done marketing at some point in your career. How how can marketing people think these days? What can they do? Again, marketing because that's the touch point to the customers And everything a company does. Right? I think there's a whole spectrum all the way from responsible and ethical marketing on the one hand. Yeah. Today, you hear about Greenwashing is simply because marketers want to say more, do more to be in the hype when maybe the company is not quite there yet. So ethical and responsible. I think that's the basic stuff. Marketing doesn't always have to be about selling the next brand new thing. Right. There was many years where in the telco, we always want you to buy a new phone, and we're always promoting the new phone. But today, we're saying Bring your own. Yeah. Bring your own. Because, actually, if you use your previous phone, you're eliminating a lot of Production footprint from emissions perspective. Or maybe do a trade in so that your old phone, rather it goes into your drawer, could be We deployed and maybe we sold to another customer who, you know, wants that same phone, but not at the same price point. Hence, doesn't need it to be new or the latest version. You see, so there's all this sort of stuff that actually, even marketeers could do. I give a very good example. Couple of years ago, you know, we we have prepaid SIMs. And Mhmm. A small SIM goes on a big plastic. Marketers love to wrap it with branding, and then they'll shrink-wrap it with plastic. And when you talk about telco, if you're selling millions of SIMs a year, and each one you're adding individual packaging with individual, a a branding, You multiply that. That's a lot of packaging, cardboard, printing, Space, warehousing, logistics, transport, there's a whole cumulative effect that has a emission footprint. And a couple of years ago, we got our marketers to observe in one of our retail shops what our retail staff do with all your branded packaging. Right. Customer walks in. Our customer service reps are so efficient. They unwrap the SIM. They break out the SIM, throw everything in the bin at the back, Put the phone in put the SIM in the phone. The phone walks out working with the box of the device, because that's what the customer wants to keep. And everything they spend on from a marketing angle was in the waste paper basket in the back office. Mhmm. What happened? They eliminated everything overnight. They saved 2,500,000 a year. They eliminated 50 tons of packaging. That's an example of marketing that sits on the ground and sees Israeli people, do they really need all that? So today, we've got, packaging boxes. You know, we still have to ship equipment, but we've got packaging that's fit for size of the device, that's brown and ugly recycled paper with no colorful print. They've now reached that stage that actually do I really need to do that? Because maybe that brown recycled box that's as small as possible with no brand speaks louder for everything we do in sustainability than all we try and do true branding and marketing. Along with each of you as an example. No. No. No. It's really cool because it it's funny because I don't buy phones very often, so I had I did notice that. And then in my last interaction, And I I remember there wasn't that much waste, so that's promising. And then you kinda look at you know, you get these, what do you call them? The medicine not medicine, gone blank, herbs, vitamins. Right? You You got a vitamin bottle and it's that big and and and and the and the medicine and the actual tablets of that take up that much space, and it is not changing. And I just Don't understand how this industry can continue as they're doing with these big, big plastic containers that are basically empty, and there's so many industries They're not even think every time I go in the supermarket, nothing is changing. Like like, come on. We've been talking about this for a long time. I'm cleaning up the beach every day. You know? I was listening to, Grant Rollison who did who basically rode Human powered across in a boat across from the Bay of Bengal, and he said there was just rubbish every step of the way. And, he he was asked to to do an assessment of how often there was rubbish. And it actually was the point where there was rubbish everywhere. There was no there was no not rubbish. So, the from a scientist or the whatever the whoever we were supporting it was, they basically just stopped taking photographs because they'd be tagging a 100% of the Bay of Bengal is full of rubbish. Right? So what are we gonna do about it? So it's really it's really promising to hear that. So product design, packaging design, so marketing, and also the the the circular economy, you know, making sure that everything goes back because it's not obviously, the other Thinking beyond waste is mining, and we know that children, even as young as 5, are involved in the mining sector. We also know, that in the e waste dumps that, you know, the people in those communities are being impacted by all of the heavy metals in the environment from the e waste. So, you know, the so The telco industry, you feel like it's really stepping up and taking on that challenge of of addressing the e waste industry as a whole. Do you feel like that's starting to happen now at scale? Again, it varies by country because, you know, a lot of something like e waste, is not just what the telco wants to do. It comes down to sometimes national infrastructure, Comes down to whether the country has e waste processing facilities. But, you know, in for example, in Australia, it's a very good example where over the time, we we were the founder together with a couple of other telcos called the mobile master program. So initially, a few telcos and device manufacturers came together and say, look, let's not, try and duplicate all our e waste recycling with our own branded Campaigns and programs, why not? Let's come together, build a consistent infrastructure, a consistent model for managing a waste, And, you know, that stretch back all the way, I think it must have been about 14 years ago. And today is a fantastic example where the whole industry and the value chain. So it's not just Telco, But the equipment providers and device manufacturers have all come together, and we collectively fund a very well efficiently at scale program, for the whole nation for e waste. Mhmm. You see, so it's those sort of collaborative effort even while we compete, that actually moves the needle. Whereas if, Again, Telcos are saying I wanna do it alone. It's only my brand and so forth. Then, yeah, you get a bit of it, but you can never have scale that is sustainable because many of things Have scale economies. But again, it varies because in some countries, even if the telcos were prepared to come together to do that, you don't have the whole national infrastructure. You may not have, recycling type facilities. Maybe it still has to go offshore and there's additional cost to that. So I think governments also do play some role either in legislation, in policy, maybe in incentives that can Can help support not only for the telco industry, but I suppose, for other dimensions of, emissions as well as the circular economy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And waste management. Right? So I look at Singapore's, incinerator infrastructure, which also captures its emissions, and I'm gonna see if I can get a tour there because I wanna understand it. But I think we need that level of infrastructure in every single country on the planet. And I think one of the great initiatives that Coca Cola, PepsiCo, Nestle, all the big plastic polluters could do is come together and invest in that infrastructure everywhere because, you know, I'm in Thailand where waste is still being shipped, and we know it's a very, corrupt industry. It's it's it's always been run by the mafia. They're not doing a good job. They're not. I see, landfill sites randomly everywhere at the side of the road And, you know, and then these new construction sites are being built on top of them, which guarantees that all that waste is gonna break down and go down into the aquifers, so it's just gonna be him doing more damage in the long run, so it's really frustrating. So we need that global approach. And I think governments and the big f f FMCG companies And the big fossil fuel companies and everyone that's involved in this, first of all, we need to solve the problem, but we also need to stop the problem, You know? And I know there's a big plastic waste treaty going on at the moment, but it's to me, it's all single use. You know? The plastic bag was invented in 1965. I think there were about 200,000,000 middle class people at the time. I'm not sure of the exact number because it's actually really hard Find the number. But now there's 3,800,000,000 middle class people around the world, and they're expecting it to hit 4,800,000,000 by 2030. I don't know how that's possible with what's coming from an environment perspective, but more than half the world's population is moving into the middle class. So there's gonna be more and more waste. Right? So we need to really address that and, you know, make sure you're donating your phones back back to the, back to the suppliers who can get them out there to people who need them too and, you know, contribute that way as well. So let's just let's talk to your daughters. They're in their Twenty is almost. The youngest is almost 20. They're going into a career, and and they don't have a boss as nice as you. They have someone who's a little bit more against the idea of doing anything differently. What would you advise them, young people today. How do they how do they get these people to hear? Yeah. Mhmm. I think if they walk the top For what they were they they, sort of advocating, I think that's the biggest thing they do. And, you know, I'm I'm proud of my Daughters, despite the fact, sometimes you remind them to turn off the lights. You know, my Mhmm. Elder daughter, when she was in school, started a a online business. And her online business, she called it 2nd 2nd time new. Right. So she was not an advocate for fast fashion, but she would Find a way to get secondhand fashion, and then be able to resell them online. Nice. And, actually, that was a early entrepreneurial business. Right. My 2 other daughters, while they're studying and even now, you know, when they're studying and they're doing part time work, part of their part time work, involves, working and supporting the vulnerable disabilities, the disadvantaged, the elderly. Right? So I think The that generation is interesting, has a natural propensity to get it. And if you can move them from the get it to the how, And the how in their own ways, on their own terms, and everything that they're doing, they are a force for change, you know? So Yeah. I'm actually very optimistic, because of the generational attitude, and I suppose maybe when I think of it, growing up in better circumstances, they're they're not living from And tomorrow, if you can say that, and it gives them the mental capacity to think at a very different level and shape actions at a very different level. And, again, that gives me optimism. So they still have to turn off their light. They still got to not buy so many shoes when they don't have to, but I think, you know, they're doing things that do set the tone for what that generation can do. Yeah. And what about your experience as a senior leader in the tech space, because you must attend conferences all over the world, not just in your industry, but more broadly. What's your experience with, people at at your level, what what's the level of awareness? Are they are they switching on? Are they still fighting it? What what what are you hearing? I think it shifted, you know, when, say, couple of years ago. And, firstly, again, you know, it must qualify. Sometimes when we attend some of these conferences, We have people who are converted, and we're all talking to the same it's almost like a echo chamber. Yeah. And in fact, nowadays, I attend less sustainably conferences than I do Speaking to finance people and other sectors because it's not so intuitive to them. Right? But I think it it changed from has changed from Skepticism to, you know, all this stuff is theoretical. To then, inquisitive to want to know and, to understand the fundamentals. But today, when you attend, it's a lot more about the action and the solutioning. Right? So again, if you follow that Journey just over the last couple of years, it does land for a lot more, optimism. And again Yep. Yeah. Then sing, Conferences that are pushing the envelope of even innovation. And I think the moment human society starts to think of a different way, innovation and breakthrough, Then you know you are getting closer to a tipping point of positivity because all the rest was just, you know, incremental changes to What we're trying to do or fix the problems that we're creating as opposed to approach things in a very different innovative way that's either solves and eliminates the problem. And that's why I think the innovation, the solutioning, I'm seeing a lot of stuff. And I'm also seeing capital flow into that area, and I know from a venture capital days when Capital flows into an area. Money talks in shipping outcomes, so there's a lot of capital moving into sustainability type solutions and innovations today. Yeah. And I I I hope everyone can take some heart from what you've just said then, the the the change in awareness at the senior leadership level. I think that's It's an important thing because it's very easy to sit on the sidelines and attack and criticize and, you know, the the the change that's required of all of us right across to board, you know, whether whether it's for businesses or individuals is is so huge, and I think people really struggle with it. So, the the the education piece that you were talking about so I've been publishing, a blog which I call the Weekend Reads, and it's everything I've been reading, watching, and listening to for a whole week. And it covers The I mean, the majority of it is climate. It's also social issues, politics, and some other stuff. And I do it because I'm trying to help people Pay attention to the information that matters versus the the shiny stuff. Kim Kardashian's bum, for example. Right? So, because I'm just I'm I yeah. I I suppose I'm a bit more of a serious person, but I'm trying to get people to pay attention because you can't We cannot get blindsided by this, so adaptation measures are so critical right now, and I don't see any country getting ready for what what is coming anywhere. Wealthy countries and poor. And poorer poorer countries are obviously gonna be much more impacted, but It does it does it does give me, hope what you've just said, but do spend the time to understand if you can. If you can't because your mental health isn't capable of taking on board this information, trust the people who are doing it. That's what I would suggest because I I speak to a lot of people, and they just say to me, I can't I can't read this stuff, Andrea. It's just too it's too sad. It's too desperate. It's And I and I totally understand, but I'm kind of it's frustrating. Right? Because it's like but we need to know, what's happening so we can prepare for it. But if you can't, face it. Trust the conclusions of the people that you trust who are doing it. Would you would you agree? Well, I think there's definitely an element in the in a situation where there Traitian where there are no 100% sure solutions. I think, you know, doing something is better than nothing. Right? I mean, there are a lot of, even for for what individuals and corporates are trying to do out there. You also get the other side of criticism for, you know, everything from Client green, you know, green washing and so forth. So I think, again, we got to recognize we're pushing the boundaries. There's no right answer. Sometimes we gotta set targets. You know, today today, for example, when people talk about setting targets, they're so afraid of who we be accused of wind washing because we don't have Every answer and every part of the roadmap. And if I were to think that way in 2017 when we were one of the earliest to set SBTI global emissions targets, Oh, they said, maybe it's better not to set targets while we're putting the monkey on our back. Right? So you have to solve situations that you still need some Level 2, believe and trust, even if we don't have the answers. Because if you don't do that, then everyone is not gonna progress anything. No no one's gonna take A shot at it. And, you know, they're gonna be failures, but they're also gonna be a lot of successes. So I do believe there's gotta be a level of trust, level of optimism for the kind of outcomes and find kind of solutions that we will find that don't yet exist and just believe in that. Right? I think that's really important, this journey where we're going through a lot of Unknown, territory. Yeah. And also the resilience of leadership to deal with all the, the the criticism that's gonna come. Because often it comes through, a level of ignorance that they're not that that when you're not in the room, you don't know what's happening. Right? And I I recently read that, the companies who buy at the carbon credits, which are being criticized all over the world at the moment. But the companies who actually buy the credits, even when the credits have been, seem to be ineffective, the companies have significantly reduced their emissions at the same time. So while one area hasn't succeeded. There's an other the other area is massively succeeding. So I think that's a that's a a good sign. So looking wide, looking at the nuance, Obviously, it's always important not that we're very good at that in society and we're seeing that with the, with what's going on in Israel and Palestine as well. We're missing all the nuance. Alright. So some some final words to everyone. Well, I think final words again, you know, just say Sustainability is not for the role of Andrew Boy and CSOs. I think it's really something for everyone, And it's for every level of the organization. And so it's incumbent on us in a sense to do the basic Minimum to try and understand the topic, understand the basics, and my take is once you get some of the foundational level, it starts to get a lot more intuitive, And you start to find, actually, you can take actions in everyday, in every personal part of your life, in the job that you're in, regardless of what job it is, And all this cumulatively, I think do make a very big difference. You know? So I think let's be optimistic. Let's keep going, and let's rally those who Believe in it and, take some risks there. Yeah. No. I like it. I like it a lot. Angie, thank you so much. It's been really, really, really great to meet you and also to hear what you've got to saying, I think keeping the hope alive is important. When you're stuck in the depths of the story of our time, it's, it's hard to remember to stay optimistic. But, You've given me a bit of a boost for the weekend, so thank you for that and I hope you gave everyone else a bit of a boost too. But, get involved, whatever you do, whatever role you play. And the other thing is talk about it on social media. Talk about it. Talk about it in conversations. Normalise the conversation. We've got to talk about it. We've gotta vote for leaders who are capable of of of leading us through these times. We're not necessarily doing that everywhere. But keep hope alive because, You know, let's let's we can go down trying, but it's it's better than going down and not trying. Right? Go down trying. Go down trying. That's great. Yeah. I'd rather, yeah, I'd rather do that. You know, it obviously it'd be better if we could succeed. But, you know, let's let's let's go for it. You know? Time is ticking. Right? So, Andrew, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Thanks, everyone. My pleasure. See you in a couple of weeks. Appreciate it.