Uncommon Courage

Climate Courage: we’re not going to sustainability our way out of this crisis

April 21, 2023 Andrea T Edwards, Praveen Gupta, Peter Kerr, Karen Leong, Episode 96
Uncommon Courage
Climate Courage: we’re not going to sustainability our way out of this crisis
Show Notes Transcript

Green growth, green tech, green products…. is that really the way we’re going to deal with this crisis? Ikea now uses sustainable mushroom packaging – hooray - however, it’s still a #FastFurniture operation, so a focus on the packaging just isn’t going to cut it. We’re at the point where we must transform or even close entire industries. Green growth? Sure, it might make voters happy to hear this term – jobs safe and all that – but growth is the reason we are at this precipice of absolute disaster. 

We are being overwhelmed by businesses, the media, and politicians with these messages, but at this late stage in the game, it’s a very dangerous message. It’s giving us a sense of hope, not to mention, the idea that all we need to do is switch to sustainable options – anything from paper bags to electric vehicles – and we’ll be alright. But we won’t be alright. 

The truth is, we need to contract significantly, and that contraction needs to take our economies and consumption below overshoot, especially as we’ve been in overshoot for decades now, which means we have a debt to pay to catch up. Because we left action so late, what is required today is a massive shift in our lifestyles across the board, so join us, because we think it’s time to talk about that. 

To help me understand this big part of the climate story, I am delighted to welcome Praveen Gupta, who shares regularly on climate action, diversity, governance, risk and tech; Peter Kerr, a consultant in renewable energy strategy, business development, government relations and project implementation advice; as well as Karen Leong, a human capital transformation specialist and climate activist. Come and join us. 


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Unknown:

Yes. Welcome to climate courage. My name is Andrea Edwards. And today our topic is we're not going to sustainability our way out of this crisis. But I'm just going to bring up Praveen has just joined us. And there we go. Hello, Praveen. So we can start by introducing Praveen who I actually met Praveen on LinkedIn, because he was showing some really amazing content through aluminium and some other publications as well. Right prevent. Yep. Thank you. Yeah. And then we have a very old friend of mine. Not that your old does. Take care. Yeah, are you still you're still looking good. And we met a long time ago, you were still working in Reserve Bank of Australia at the time. And now you are working as a consultant in renewable energy. So looking forward to hearing your story. And the adorable currently on who's a human capital transformation specialists, which I think is such a critical skill right now. But also someone who is really passionate about the environment as well. So welcome, Karen. So I figured the best thing we can do is give everyone a sense of who we've got here, where I won't put Praveen on the spot, because you've just joined us. But Karen, do you want to start just sort of let everyone know who you are and what you do and what you care about. I have to say, I'm a reformed mercenary, because I used to focus on helping companies achieve runaway goals, growth through IPOs with one of the big four. And so after decades of just hard work and helping other companies make money, then I took a break. And I think I went into fashion. Fashion, of course, as we know, is also one of the major polluters nowadays, but and set up my own fashion labels sold it. And now for the last 15 years, I've been in human capital. So I think working more from the heart, but it's very exciting helping companies and power high trust cultures. So couldn't wait to share more. And I had no idea about the fashion bit so we'll have to talk about that next time we see. Pete, you want to tell everyone your story. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the invite. Lovely to meet you all. You PK. I've had many careers started out as an economist, and then when I had my midlife crisis early, so did shipping and journalism, but eventually found my way into energy and just fell in love with energy and realised how important that was to everyone's lives. But more importantly, how important that is to the transition and to climate change. So I'm passionate about helping companies and people make the move to renewable energy as quickly as possible. And that's what I'm here to talk about. And you're both in Perth. So Karen's in Yeah, run a small consultancy here in Perth, you know, where occasionally large jackets people kind of, you know, this one was meant for my wife. It's a famous indigenous artist in Australia, Colin Wallace. So um, ya know, proud also of the efforts that have been done on Aboriginal reconciliation in WA. Yeah, that's pretty powerful. It's amazing what's going on. So I'm, I'm obviously calling in from Thailand, where we're going through this incredible Heatwave, and so is Praveen who's in India where they're getting it even worse. So do you want to introduce yourself first prevent? Yep. Thank you really appreciate this. And lovely meeting all of you. So yes, I spent a lot of time in the insurance industry in India, outside India. And that enabled me, I'm a very curious guy, but always dabbling in some form or the other of writing. And more recently, I decided to come out of my full time work. And then thanks to COVID That was a great facilitator. I've been into, you know, lock stock and barrel and to climate issues and stuff like sustainability. Energy has always been a major draw, because I followed India's only energy transition. The time I used to be in Hong Kong and the government was looking at bringing in major power producers from wherever they were Hong Kong could be missed. So I've kind of intermediated in some of them. But coming back to present, you know, I live in Mumbai, I again, thanks to COVID I spend time in other smaller city from time to time, depending on the weather and and convenience. But other than that, I read and write and that's my seven to eight hours of work. And that helps my passion of staying connected and thankfully, you know, the network is right from Brazil to New Zealand. And as I said, I'm curious I somehow Is the two of you, I got ahold of Andrea. Sorry, I call you Andrea I should be calling. I am delighted to meet the two stars here and look forward to staying in touch with me Muriel's here just saying that she's having trouble seeing the event. So I hope I hope you can get in. I'm not sure what to do the stream yard for you anyway, I'm sure it will start. Alright, so we've got a really big topic, it's probably the most ambitious one I've ever attempted. But I think we are in a time where we need to be ambitious. And I think we've got to start with numbers, right. And it's specifically around the middle class. So I guess just let me tell you stories. So plastic was invented in 1907. But the plastic bag was invented in 1959, by a Swedish scientist or engineer, who basically saw the massive deforestation that was happening because the paper bags and said, We've got to stop this. And, of course, the original plastic bags were thicker, and were never meant to be single use. But if we start putting some numbers on it, so in 1959, there were 2.9 billion people. And of course, today, we have 8 billion people. So the middle class, which is basically the the individuals who can go out there and buy big ticket, big ticket items, like cars, or whatever. This is the group that has grown exponentially. And let me assure you, we're not letting the point 1% off. You know, those individuals with emissions, the size of countries, that's that's another thing. But there's this explosive growth in the middle class, right across the world, but especially in Asia. And most of this growth has happened, growth has happened outside of the rich Western countries. So I couldn't find any middle class numbers for 1959. But back in 2013, when I was actually at Microsoft, I wrote a paper with one of the guys that was covering the aerospace industry. And at the time I uncovered, we had 500 million middle class people in the world. And the World Economic Forum predicted that that would grow to 1.7 5 billion people by 2020. At the time, it was considered the greatest seismic shift humanity had ever experienced. Right? So the actual numbers in 2020, we hit 3.5 billion upper and lower middle class people. And by 2030, it's expected to grow to 4.8 billion people. So of course, what a middle class people, you know, and we are all in that in that bracket, right, based on what we do. What do we spend our money on? Obviously, food, more meat, you know, when countries get wealthier, their meat consumption goes up, seafood, clothes, cars, fridges, you know, bigger homes, flights, holidays, you know, all of those things, right? So, the problem was pointed out back at the beginning of the last decade, and literally nothing has been done to stop that growth. In fact, if you look at the growth charts, it's just, it's just constantly going up. Much of the wealth is in this new region, too. And you, we, everyone, everywhere we go, we can see people enjoying this wealth, because they can go and do things that they couldn't do, especially, you know, growing up in poor families. So Karen, I know this is a massive question. And I have no idea where this is going to go. But how can we get this message out, especially in the Asia Pacific region? And how do we help the new middle class understand that actually desiring what the original middle class to had is actually the path to catastrophe? And I suppose what we've got to really look at doing is working out how do we tell a story that helps people understand that we need to we need to actually create something a new way of living a new way of being? What do you want to join us start by sharing your thoughts? And then when paetynn prevent jumping afterwards, if you've got something as well, I mean, you are you're so right on Germany, I love how you frame it, because we were sold this story, and it's such a big story, that it's it's it started ever since the Industrial Revolution, and where, you know, the advertising industry needed a story to get us to buy more stuff to spend more money. And so, we bought into this story, but what happened is that you know, even in the companies companies have also bought into the story of relentless growth, there is no such thing as D growth, right? So even in school textbooks we study, you know, like market theory, a good company is a profitable one. So I think we do like what you say, Andrea, we need a different story, but I can share three points how stories can easily be weaved. Because, number one through you know, strong governments can also shift store If you look at China, for example, you know how, just a couple of years ago they started to clamp down on growth? And I think was it seizing pins? I think in 2021, he had already created a new story. They called it the, what do they call it, they call it common prosperity. Right. So that was the story to say they need to address inequality. And they need to clamp down on even political leaders, you know, wearing printing watches, spending a lot of money. This actually shaped the behaviour of all the political leadership. And so I think it is possible, you know, at the government level, and it's also possible in social media. So say, for example, Marie Kondo, right, people started to have houses full of stuff, but now she's a new story, where people talk about simplicity, about living simple lies, about decluttering, about not buying too much, keeping only the things that spark joy. And it's not surprising that a lot of people actually want to live a life of less clutter, and simplicity. So maybe that's why she's so popular on Netflix. So that's one actually creating a new story that shows a new possibility with less stress. And I think the second thing is, we need to create a story, which is it showcases the risk of not taking action. Because I know that there was a lot of positivity that you know, you know, like Hollywood story, where you know, the middle class is also pretty sheltered. Even in the recent Asian Heatwave, they got air conditioning, they were not the labourers toiling in the sun under you know, 50 plus degrees of heat, you know, people are working air conditioned offices. So I think the key thing is to, to be able to link the heat waves, the recent APR agent, heat waves, with the most sinister reality that nothing is done in the next couple of years we live, it's going to be a point of no return, whether through social media influencers, we need to bring that closer to home. And I think the third thing is, you know, you do need to give people some optimism that things can change. Because, you know, Andre, you talk a lot about there's a lot of eco anxiety where people feel that there is no do any anything. I think we need to temper the doomsday with the fact that, hey, we need winning stories, we need now to start really spinning all the successes. So I mean, I love the winning stories, like what are some winning stories that I picked up? The fact that no, I, you know, the fact that the world that the solar wind storage projects are actually taking off. I love the stories that people are trying to take down the dirtiest banks, I think it was at the Royal Bank of Canada, it funded $42 billion in dirty money, financing the, you know, the the oil industry, and I think we need these that, you know, people are taking them down, we need to feel that yes, we could make simple changes, like giving up meat on certain days. Like I decided to give up meat for a month. That was about one and a half years ago. And you know, I just never stopped month after month. And, and so I think we small shifts doesn't make a difference. Like I gave up my car. I decided in Singapore, owning a car is very expensive. I might as well, you know use public transport. My kids walk to school. And it is so liberating, actually, because we cycled everywhere I've been so we're recycling family. So I think small actions can have a big impact. So remember, we just need to change the story. Nice. I like what you said about China, but I wish they did it in a more positive way. Because to me, it wasn't it felt like a war on wealth. You know, so the whole Alibaba Jack Ma story in the way that was handled and how we didn't even see him, right. I think, you know, come on comrades, let's come together and do this. And I think a country like China or even a country like Singapore, from the leaders of the government, they could do that they can they can call the people to action, whereas countries like Australia or America might struggle a little bit to get that consensus, but But what do you guys think? Yeah, I would think sorry, Pete. Okay, that was the director. So, I think Karen made a very strong point, you know, role models are very important. And particularly in the Asian societies, whichever the country be, you know, each one has had a cycle. You know, the Tiger Economies came to action much ahead of the rest, including China and India and some mobs, you know, celebrating material wealth has become the order of the day. And I don't think much is really happening to bring down consumption, consumerism, and to really effect. decarbonisation sorry for all this jargon. But the fact of the matter is that, you know, look at the global trade, much of it is concentrated in Asia pack, look at the young populations, look at the company's growing look at the GDP share of these companies growing, look at what the, you know, the Rolexes are selling, what the perfumes are selling, what the where are the cars selling, what brands are selling, you're no more small cards, it's the big cars, and the biggest of big cars are being bought and sold here. So while you and I may decide not to go for a car, there are still a lot of young people who want to live and practice the American dream. So this is where the problem is, and this is how I will also want to dovetail in the India story. And and probably, you know, seek your wisdom as to what possibly can be done to bring this into, you know, some kind of check and balance. I like the idea of that the story for each country, because it needs to be specific to each country because and that's, that's, you know, somebody was posting about the young lady at the youngest UN ambassador, and she went out and translated all of this research. I thought it was such a brilliant story, because that's exactly what needs to happen, you know, because, you know, I always say I'm a white face in Asia, I can't be a face of of, of the conversation, because because of past colonial history, right. And I and I have to respect that. Because I can't say you can't do this, because that's not going to be received at Karen, you're talking in Singapore matters. Because you're a Singaporean. Right. And that local message, local story, I think it's critical. And I think I'm in a similar situation to you. But I do like Karen's point about. I've been involved as a journalist in the power of story in corporate communications as well as power star, I think it's, it's, it's a big one. I did like the point about leaving people with optimism, though. And it's interesting, all I'll try and put together these are the challenges of these conversations. And these stories are, you know, not wanting to put a guilt trip on people. But I reckon you can actually think laterally and have a great story and actually use consumerism in a positive way. And so he's a little spin off put on it. So, Andrew, I know you shared and you speak a bit a fair bit actually about soul Griffiths. He is an amazing author and thinker about electrification of the system. And I urge you all to, if you haven't, to check him out. But he's advised everyone from Joe Biden all the way through to his local community in Hong Kong. But he makes a very simple point, and it kind of gives us hope. And it's that we do have the technology right now to arrest global warming, or keep warming to one and a half degrees Celsius, above pre industrial levels where it actually exists today. And you think, oh, that's going to cost a lot. But in fact, it it might not this solution is quite simple. If you know, it still has some challenges. But it's, there are a couple of major things, maybe five things that people will buy in their life, or appliances that they'll buy in their life, once a car, once a hot water heater, once it gets a cooktop, generally guess one's maybe how you heat your house. So his point is very simple one, you don't have to replace them all overnight. If you just over time, as they break, replace them with an electric appliance. And that electricity comes from renewable energy. If we did that both at a business level and a household level across the globe over the next 20 or 30 years, that is consistent scientifically, with keeping temperatures at 1.5 degree overload. So that's a very tangible kind of hopeful message that you can you can give people now the challenge, of course, is then supplying all those appliances with renewable power. You may be talking about that later. But I kind of like like, what can we do? What can we do on what might be a micro scale, but if it's replicated everywhere, that could be an enormous force. And so I'm a I'm a big believer of the electrify everything story. And I still think we have time if if we push hard enough with government support to to limit the damaging temperature rises that we've seen. Yeah, I think the other the other side is we have to fundamentally change how we eat like that. And, and you know, what is one that we may touch on? Actually, it's probably even a bigger issue than energy, potentially, there's a lot less ways of getting water. And you know, even in my hometown of Perth, we have to our third desalination plant on the way. So we kind of, we're now manufacturing, we're in manufacturing water stage. So we're kind of, we've run out of water to feed this community because of drying climate. So that's going to be a massive challenge as well, to your point, Andrea, then, you know, how do you crop and use that water to crop or to feed livestock? So yeah, not denying the challenges, but I do think we've got some existing technical solutions that with the right effort, and you know, even just the simple steps that a whole globe might make, can at least get us there. Yeah, yeah, I've got this idea. It's called Join the 1 billion movement and imperfectly change, right? We need a billion people doing it. And then that ripples out sort of consume the world. Yeah. But there's, there's some big and the other thing is, I think wherever we are, we need to go out and regenerate the environment based on what it was 50 years ago, with plants and animals and everything and see, yeah, I think that's an you know, seagrass all of this stuff. But all right, so So I'm introducing these, they're not really questions, it's sort of sort of thoughts. And they're, it's a bit longer than normal. But when I was sort of thinking through how to do this topic, it's actually it's so big, I couldn't do it simply. So. So anyway, all right. So we've got to solve our problems with different thinking, if we want to get it right. And so last year, I think I was either in the UK or not long after they're experiencing massive housing shortages, as I know, is happening in Australia and other Western democracies, right. But in the UK, they basically revealed that they bit built enough houses to house everyone that didn't have one, the emissions from that would blow out the UK entire emissions budget. So I think that, you know, surely we're at a point now where we need to be saying, what's what's wrong in the system that we need to fix, before we do something that's going to create more emissions, like I'm watching things being built here, that predicted sea level rises, they will overcome those, those facilities before anyone will actually even move into them. So like, some crazy stuff, so we're suffering the emissions of their creation, and they will probably never be be lived in. But, you know, in a lot of countries around the world, Airbnbs are a massive issue, you know, the massive issue. And the other one is, people with second homes, you only spent a couple of weeks in the year. So surely, we should be sort of looking at things like that, and saying that can no longer be so we need to get people in houses. But from electric vehicles to solar panels, you know, some of these are unavoidable, like solar panels. And if you look at the data on how much copper and all of the different precious metals that you're going to need, we have to accept some of those costs, but we can't accept them all. And so EVs to me are a classic example. Right? So the average city, or the main cities of a country emits 70% of the country's total emissions. Right? So the idea that everyone's going to have their own Eevee to drive around to replace their fossil fuel car to me seems a little bit crazy. So why can't we look at coming up with a system where the you know, forever, it's easier in the cities and in the country, right? There's pools of people driving EVs around picking people up and taking them to public transport, trams, trains, buses, whatever makes sense for the country. You can hire an Eevee for short, you know, if you need to drive up somewhere for a period of time, or longer term taxis that are EVs, but the idea that we can all replace what we have with something sustainable, and then you'll look at the numbers of the amount of emissions emissions created from the creation, like the fossil fuels that are involved in the creation of EVs. There's no question. They released less EVs on the emissions on the road, that the creation of them, you still need to counter that out at a point when we need to be dropping it not increasing it. So, Pete, I know you've got lots of different sort of perspectives here. I'll hand it over to you. Yeah, and heavy, obviously, for everyone else's perspective. I think you've Karen preventive also touched on some of the points about EVs and cars, you know, sort of like a scale of you know, the cars but also do you need one? So, yeah, look, I don't, I don't have a car either. We went kind of freight and we're in a fortunate position, because we're in a kind of a dense city. We don't have kids. So you know, it's not for everyone but EVs are actually a really good example of perhaps, the need. There's the technology that exists to you know, help us with our climate goals. But also it's Selling, you know, trying to sow the seeds so that, you know, the consumption of resources is not is not huge, so they kind of have a dual edged sword for me. So I think the technology is almost there for autonomous vehicles that will reduce dramatically your need for to own your own car. So that's the one I use an app called keto in Australia, I don't know what the what it's called over overseas. But Toyota basically have acknowledged that there are going to be less cars owned by people in aggregate. And so they have a car sharing app and your phone becomes a key, it's actually really cool. I just turned up to the dealership, click and then on off, and I drive and it's all measured by the fine. So there's some really good tech that you can do to share resources. And I think, you know, that's it's pretty much here, it's it's close to being here. EVs are also brilliant in a in another way electrically. You You're basically buying a battery, and you're getting a car for free. So forget the car, you're actually buying car, you're buying a battery now, and they've really quite big. And what they can do is they can shift and help shift electricity through the day. So maybe these cars are parked at work, and there's some solar panels on the rooftop, and they can charge the battery and then at night, they can go home. And whenever I'm standing on their air conditioning at night, the cars can just discharge back that energy to the grid, and it helps balance things. So you don't need to build these super grids because you've got this huge fleets of EVs. So thereby, they're the really good side of the beast for me. So yes, we do need to get to sharing more resources, because there's lots of copper and these things, I think it can help us not over build infrastructure. But the problem is, the bigger the car you get, the bigger the battery you get. And the tendency has been in New EVs, and I'd be interested in prevents, you know, views as well in India, maybe the car sizes, I was big, but you know that the new EVs that are coming out are enormous, and they take an enormous battery. And those batteries are very hard to recycle the moment. So you kind of got to somehow get people used to the fact that maybe I don't need the enormous Eevee. Because I can then have a consequential sort of, you know, impact on all those resources that are building this thing, and it'll be less impact on recycling, etc. So that's still a big challenge. I think we leave those but that's a kind of that's where I'll leave it because I've had enough to say, but yes, and everyone else's thoughts. You know, I love what you say, you know, Peter, and I thought you did a better way a different, there's a different way, which is actually just to change work practices. Because you know, the COVID-19 has exposed a new way of working from home, I think companies can have smaller offices, people only need to commute to connect. And so it's really about, you know, I remember I was at JPMorgan, you know, the CEO, audit everybody back and not most of the major banks insist that everybody comes back. But instead of assuming people need to be in the office to prove their productive, I think it needs to rethink and how to lead and manage and inspire performance. So there needs to be a shift, companies should actually downsize so that they, they have much less cost, people need to travel this. And then efforts can be spent in in advocating for better infrastructure. Because, you know, sometimes you can't tell a family that you can't drive, if there is no supporting structure. So I think you touched upon it, Peter, right, that it's, that's the next very, very important step. And yeah, for us, we have to have a card, there's no way this system that I'm sorry. It's okay. It's alright. But the electric infrastructure is not in place, either. So, you know, for us, it's just not even a possibility. But the current thing about working from home, so during COVID, basically, companies emissions increased dramatically, because all of the individual people working from home are actually as businesses using a lot more energy, rather than that one central place where you just have have aircon for everyone, especially in hot places, right. So whenever it wants to actually spread out, it actually started. So it's almost like we need to have sort of like working in bubbles, close walking distance from homes, right. So you can, you know, so it's not the central office, it's that sort of sporadic spread out. But that's, that's the thing, it's different thinking right? That provision, what about in India? Have you got the infrastructure yet? See, the infrastructure is still in a very nascent stage. But the root cause is the source of power and the source of power is coal. Then whether you use an electric car or you use any The other form of, of fossil fuel, you're still using fossil fuel. So, you know, you may move the emission from the tailpipe to the power plant chimney, but it's still there, you know, so So you need a radical shift unless, you know, as I'm going to perhaps bring that point, the course of our discussion, you know, you have a significant renewable energy possibility, which can be 100%. You know, I keep saying God willing, because it is, it needs all the divine blessing, you know, to happen, because otherwise we have a major major existential problem. So, so, once you get the genuine renewable energy as the driver of all the engines, you know, this discussion for India won't really, yeah, it would be just a moot point. I would, yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's a really good observation. So Greta makes an important point. He says, You've got to electrify everything, but it has to be with renewable energy. That's obviously the challenge. But yeah, you know, there's a pathway at least. Yeah, I think that's one of the problems that maybe isn't understood, sort of, especially by Western countries. So people always say to me, why did we get here so quickly? You know, and the reason we got here so quickly, is because China just exploded, and it built its economy on the, on the back of fossil fuels. Right. And, and that's, that's why we're where we are today, right? India, India is at that point of growth, that if it grows in the same way, we're going to, I mean, it's basically game over, really, like literally game over because it's not because it's such a big population, but just the amount of it's, it's built on the back of coal, right. And, you know, one of the only ways I can see us having a chance, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, Praveen is the rest of the world has to help India become a sustainable energy, country, but no country has ever built themselves as a system. They've all built themselves on the back of fossil fuels every single country on this planet, right. So India is now at the point I talked about in my last weekend rates where it's being required to do something that's never been done before. It's the most populous nation on earth, it soon will be. So to prevent, you know, from your perspective, and what you're seeing in India, what's going on? What's the conversation? Yeah, okay. It's, it's a hope. Yeah, there has to be hope. And there has to be a wish as well. So it's, but it's not just pure wishful thinking. But we are at a point where it has to be done. And you are right. It is not just India's problem, because there are lots of overlapping stories here. And I want to just give you a quick overview of past present future and how it all interplays and why the world must also chip in because it's in everyone's wellbeing to get this right. It's not just India's problem, but it's proof that all of us can proceed on these lines. So very quickly. You know, there's a friend of mine who wrote a book called India's cold story, and I want to bring that metaphor in. So hence, I will just allude to a couple of these writings. So one is this this book is a great story about how coal was first exploited in India. India, by the way, is amongst the top three countries with gold deposits. But it never leveraged that just when every other country started industrialising. So it was a late starter, thanks to the socialism and some of those other ideologies that chose to tread upon. But why was this coal exploited, the trains hadn't happened, you know, India was then a British colony, a big country, a lot of things had to be transported raw material and finished goods. But that was not it. It was opium going from India to China that required coal, and you know, you had to power your steamboats and all that that's a big story. But the metaphor is, that's when we got you know, kind of hooked on to coal, you know, so So, and we can get over our coal obsession. The second thing is 1991 was a turning point when suddenly a push to the wall, the Indian economy had to be opened up, and they had to share socialism they were going broke balance of payment and all that was a huge issue and all this began to transform the Indian economy into a market driven economy not ideal, but it was a definite move towards capitalism, you know, while it was not communist, but India has all forms of politics, you know, some Indian states of communism, some are more socialistic some are really capitalistic. So, we have a whole lot of these diversities in place. And one needs to understand that the Indian GDP which was being called as Hindu growth rate because it was it won't go beyond two to 2.5% per annum suddenly started leaping. And, you know, everyone started talking about the great Indian Tiger economy and stuff like that. So, where did it bring the Indian economy today, it's amongst the top six economies in the world, I hate GDP as a matrix, but let's use it because, you know, even a PPP doesn't help at this point of time. Now, why should the World Health is is partly found in this logic, that look, suddenly the Indian economy was big the aspirationally the middle class started growing by leaps and bounds, it was a young population, the demographic dividend as they call was driving the economy. Kids started looking at you know, dreaming, literally the American dream not just in India, but going and working out information technology provided that platform and all that action started. So, where, you know, it really led us to is also a very different story from from say, China. So, you you are a democracy, you have access to all the news in the world. You are, you have all the stories of successes wherever you are in whichever part of the world and it fuels material aspirations. So, the big cue for India started because suddenly this engine was worrying. But coal and fossil fuel was driving it India was suddenly becoming one of the larger fossil fuel importing countries today. It is the world's second largest fossil fuel importing countries, you know, petrol, the crude, after China is the largest importer. And the big queue suddenly happened. Tim Cook is in India, by the way, you know, he was in Mumbai here yesterday there a lot of hoo ha, and he's in Delhi, and he's trying to sell more and more iPhones. Now, you know, I stopped using iPhones, it's not about my preferences, but there is a reason you know, there's so much of cobalt, nickel, copper, all that going and we have to dig minds and there is no absolute governance, you are exploiting the kids in Democratic Republic of Congo and all kinds of places where it's a lawless world unfortunately, the way you mine these raw materials. So, you have urbanisation going on and as anywhere else, 70% of greenhouse gases are emitted from the towns and cities you have you know, deforestation, biodiversity loss, you have soil degradation, more and more of forests coming under agriculture, because of soil and water depletion, agriculture, suffering, monsoon is not coming on time. So, the whole challenge of, you know, a sadly colonised economy becoming developed economy. You know, you can't always blame the coloniser. So author, a meta coach, and in fact, I would recommend you all this book. It's called the nutmegs curse, I will send you the book details but this author, please watch him. You know, I'm betting for Nobel for him someday. He's still young, you know, when your mid 60s You're young, maybe not in India, but much of the Western world he spends much of his time in the US, but what is Amitabh saying is that, you know, we basically he draws a line on all these, he connects all the dotted lines basically, how colonialism led to climate change, but what is happening is today, everyone is a coloniser, the way we are exploiting mother nature and the way father greed is really at it you know Mother Nature is bound to push us back. So he reminds us that look guys, we were blaming the British, for instance in India for colonising us and loot In gas, but today, Haven't we all become colonisers of nature. So this is a key message. And of course, a lot of other things come in here, and he brings them out. But the key thing is that today, India's energy requirement comes largely from fossil fuel. It's more than 75% coming from their solar is growing rapidly, but it's still not growing in proportion to the dramatic fall in all the Low Carbon Tax tech, energy production. Last year, for instance, India had more solar capacity installation, then call our thermal and, and, you know, there's still a race against finding so called renewable energy, unfortunately, the role models are poor, because there's constant discussion in the West about what should be green energy. And, you know, you're desperately looking at hydro, nuclear, and and many other forms of gas. Yeah, I guess. The worst is gas. So, you know, the, the Europeans have debated on that, and they've kind of adapted to that, and they're going back and forth. So these creates, who are role models, you know, for an economy like India, which needs a clear, decisive move? If if, you know, this is okay with the developed countries, why it is, why is it not good for us. So, you know, going for a net zero target to 2017 will be a bit too late. That's my personal feeling. Then you're seeing the Indians, you know, we as as a community or as an audience, you're seeing what is going wrong between US and China constant, haggling and sabre rattling and all that it's pathetic, you know, it's time for them to zoom, serious leadership, they're the two superpowers of the world and say guys, we are not only about to kill each other, we will, we will appear all in a suicidal mode, we need to fix this. This is Theatre of the absurd, enacting itself. Paris Agreement has just become Toothless. greenwashing is, you know, a wash, and but let's not forget that India, you know, there's a lot of voluntary work going on, and does amazing work, whether whether these are self help groups of women, villagers, you know, educated youth, you know, in terms of looking after soil, looking after enhancing water resources, cleaning up plastic, getting rid of hazardous waste. At the same time, you have the West, exporting hazardous waste, plastic, chemicals, dangerous goods to India. Now, you know, this doesn't give you confidence, that is the world serious about fixing this problem, or let the bloody hell whatever needs to happen happened, we will do it at our pace, you know, so we need when when you asked me, should the world be helping India, I think the world has to be very clear in its mind that we have serious problems, we have to get our acts right. We can practice whatever quality we do, but we have to all survive and survive, not just you know, for the sake of survival, but in a just equitable way. So for instance, you know, not just the exports. Now look at how the how nature works. Now, I was tracking how deforestation in Brazil impacts the melting of Tibetan or what do you call the third poles. icecaps, here are after the north and south pole, the most amount of icebergs or or glaciers are in the Indo Tibetan belt, you know, whether it's China, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Central Asia, all the rivers, major rivers, whether it's in Laos, in Cambodia, and Thailand, in Burma, in India and Pakistan, Afghanistan, right till Central Asia, China, whether it's Yangtze, whether it's Macomb, all these rivers draw their water from the same source. And if these icecaps are these, the snow melts, and there is nothing left, you know, what's going to happen to this 2.5 3 billion population. So, we have a serious serious problem. At the same time, India is working in into thermal power plants. As I said, we have existing 200 l Seven gigawatts operational power plans 55 gigawatts thermal power plants are in the pipeline. And we are looking at about 100 Giga watt of solar energy by 2030. But that needs about 500 billion US dollars of immediate investment, you know in a staggered way. So, how do you deal with it, in the meantime, the heat and humidity is growing by 20 32.5% to 4.5% of the GDP is at risk, they are light hours during which outdoor work will be unsafe is going to knock off 15% of GDP by 2030. Urban Heat Island Effect is growing because of the growing urbanisation by 2050. Heat waves will cross 35% wet bulb once a decade. And here's another book which I would recommend if none of you have seen it, the ministry of the future and this is not looking at to Dystopic a future. You know, the author Kim Stanley Robinson talks about 2030 and thereafter. So he's he's not just talking about scenarios, he's talking about solutions. And it starts with India, you know, so I'm not trying to panic or create any undue stress. But the fact of the matter is, this is staring at us, in our staring at us in our face. And the last thing that I want to mention, Andrea, Karen, and Peter is that, you know, about three weeks ago, I was talking to a forum in Delhi. And this, this was run by a very eminent economic daily, perhaps one of the largest circulation in the world. But the basic thing is, you know, they wanted to get my perspective of how we can popularise solar energy, how do we overcome? And how can financial institutions foot the bill? And I said, look, let's not look at it, from a top down approach, you have to also look at bottoms up approach, because positive social change happens when people come together, and work with a hope for future. So we need masses to come in. So my formula was ABCD. So I said, if you want to get the alpha for solar energy, you need, you know, three things. And the I mean, the last thing, of course, is diversity. Because unless you get in women, and mind you, South Asia, so the problems of India are the problems of South Asia. And it's a big, big population, you have 800 million women exposed to heat waves, huge issues, putting food on the table, huge issues, looking after children, huge issues fighting with climate change on a daily basis, they don't have fuel, so they have to go and collect firewood, and the forests have disappeared, there is no wood. So you know, it's a problem of such humongous scale, that it does trigger serious human humanitarian issues. So you can't ignore that. And this heat is kind of something that me I mean, this this issue and this discussion that we are having, cannot ignore that. The be there is the blended capital. And that's where financial institutions, multilateral agencies, you know, commercial banks, development banks, everyone has to get together with philanthropies with other development institutions, which are non banking, and get their act right to ensure that money is raised by drawing in people who are assured of a return the best people with virtually no or no default are women who are virtually hand to mouth. I mean, that's been shown in Bangladesh that's been shown in India, and why can't we tap into that kind of efficiency. The last one that I want to mention is, of course, the Indian states, given the diversity have local geniuses, one of them is the cooperative movement, one most successful cooperative movement, which made India as a world leader, and I call it the genius of India. And perhaps the genius of Gujarat is the dairy movement. There is a dairy movement called a mole. I don't want to, you know, take time and explaining what it is but a mole is an acronym. And, you know, thanks To the data Engine today, India's become world's largest dairy producer. Yes, currently, it's having some challenges because of the drought and because of some of the diseases and heat and all that. But it has become the world's largest dairy producer, whether it's cheese, butter, milk, curd, you name it, ice creams, and a lot of local other sweets, stuff like that. Yep. When that could successfully come up in the last four decades, can you transplant that model into solar energy? And can we have an a model of solar energy that was my proposition, and, and many in the audience really love the thought. And I'm just highlighting that because you have successful models, which have worked in rural India, that's where action is required. That's where poverty, you know, is more disturbing, that's where, you know, we can't wait forever, that's where fossil fuel is not going to go. Then other parts of the country, including Rajasthan, which is a neighbouring state, women have taken into selling solar energy gadgets. And, you know, that frees them, you know, that gives them some surplus income, that looks after their health, they can spend more time for children, they can ensure children, they can afford to send children to school, and and generally eat well get better, if not, like the middle class or the more rich ones. So the point is, the transformative elements are there, can we tap them and embed them into where it is causing the most pain? At four degrees centigrade? You know, I come from the insurance industry. And I tell people Look, guys, at three degrees centigrade, much of what you insure will become uninsurable. And it's not India, it's the all people haven't worked. And fortunate is in a slump. The regulatory global mechanism is actually I have no qualms in saying that. So at four degree, the planet's carrying capacity will be only 1 billion people. So imagine it's not the ministry of the future, saying that this is science. Four degrees centigrade, 7 billion people have no place. This is not sensationalism, this is fact of life. How do we ensure the well being Are we aware of all these issues, so most people would use the stereotype of flight or fight, but I'm saying fright or flight, you know, there's still no major sense of fright. But the millionaires, some of the billionaires are taking a flight and they want to go and settle on the mass. So either of it is not helpful. So whether it was Gandhi, who said, and I can't not quote him, that, you know, you have to be the change that you want to see in this world. And I'm sorry, I'm not saying exactly the same words. But basically, that's the essence. And, of course, Albert Einstein saying that you can't solve the problem from the same mindset that created that problem. So you need something radical to happen. The world has enough of that. Peter raise that, yes, the technologies that is there. We don't need anything of rocket science. Karen has said so many things which can be applied and largest countries. India has many experiments. I travelled to China at least once a year, unfortunately, last three, four years now. I've not been able to travel, looking forward to and it amazes me about the energy and whatever. But what worries me, you know, the three biggest countries that are the three biggest polluters, India, China, US, the three most vulnerable countries in the world to climate change. Are India, China, America, Europe, we have to we cannot ignore these three. We have to get them together. We have to see this as a common problem, and not any country specific problem. Thank you. I think I've been no, no, no, no, you could listen for hours. It's I think it's just so important to understand that perspective from India and the scale of the problem you were talking about, like they 800,000 women or 800,000 across Southeast Asia. One of the comments. Yeah, yeah. You said wet bulb temperatures will be hitting once every 10 years by 2050. So I don't think we're I actually think we're gonna see that this year. I know India last year, and I think Iran last year had some wet bulb temperature moments. You know, so in time All right here we had 46.5 As hard as 45.4, the hottest temperature ever recorded in Thailand. And, you know, the air conditioning couldn't keep up. And I was speaking to another friend in India who was saying, once he started to get over 50, the electrical wires started to sag. And then they'd rather than then you'd have blackouts, and they break and we throw in China with their longest drought, where they basically just have no energy to cool their homes. And for it, so correct me if I'm wrong here, for every point, one of the degree in warming equates to two to three degrees in actual temperature increase, right? So if we've had four, point 45.4, and we're about to hit this massive El Nino where this enormous bulk of heat is going to be released from the Pacific Ocean, and the warming is expected between point two and point eight. So from 45.4, so it's three, three degrees, that's going to be over 50. And Thailand's if it's point A, you're going to be up in the high 60s. And that's completely unlivable. Right? So this is something we've been going through no electricity, you have no water. So, you know, today I just said to my husband, we need to stockpile some water, because if we get into this situation, we need to be able to drink, right. And, and in India, I mean, you had it last year during lunch, Kenya. Now we're going into El Nino, which is expected to start as early as may not enter the year like they expected. So I'm actually I'm actually extremely, extremely concerned for this entire region that we're about to see temperatures we've never seen before. And all the all the science is pointing that way. I mean, you look at the ocean, how warm the ocean is, at the moment, it's hit records. So it's about to release a blob of heat. That's going to warm the entire world's temperature, atmosphere. I think this is the year that we're going to see something and I'm I'm extremely concerned about what's going to happen in the short term, not not long term. Are you saying that true? You're asking me? Yes, of course. Andrea, it's right here. You know, I I've been in and out of mobiles since February. This was the first time in my life been a longtime stare here in February. I won't switch on an aircon. If you don't have a centralised air conditioning in the apartments I live but we have our own ACS and in late Feb, I can't ever think of Cubans switching on a fan. I had to use the aircon for two hours to cool down the house. So the point is in and I said I hope this is not what is the signal in terms of what is coming. But the last two plus months have you know each day gets warmer than the other and you know once in a while you have cold air and you say okay, that must be an odd one. But it's summer I think I believe in the saying that this is your coolest summer ever. You know so it's summer will get hotter. So yeah, this is not sensationalism, this. This is the reality unfolding. And this is killing our soil. This is killing the agriculture This is messing up our rivers and, and you know, we put in more and more fertilisers, the phosphates in the petitions and whatever that goes in. It is killing the fishes. It's more and more plastic in there. And, and with this heating and precipitation, you're going to have more acid rain and more destruction. So I think something got to be done. Now. Yeah, yeah. And you know, there's a big push back on Dumas and yeah, I spend a lot of I spend a lot of time with Doom is because to me, they're the only ones who are communicating the crisis and the emergency. Without emotion, they've accepted it. Right. That's the state. And intellectually they are correct. But in my heart, I can never become a full time Duma. Although I know that correct, right. But now, it's now an agency's so huge now. And I think you know, when you're sitting in Western Australia or New sitting in Singapore, you might not have have you been touched by the extremes yet. Do you feel that you've had, you've had the moments like we're experiencing right now with this heatwave? Right, I I definitely think we I think it's still pretty. I mean, it's hot, but I don't think it's unbearable. I think people need to be able to feel more of it and Um, but of course, we are seeing news reports. So, you know, like even Singapore, I think we've had like the hottest temperatures the last couple of years. So this is a reality, I think we need, we our bodies are hot, but I think we need cooler hits. And, you know, there is a saying, you know, because I work a lot in high trust cultures, you know, like, you know, small minds talk about people, average monies talk about events, and big minds talk about ideas. And I think what happens is, is there was so much us versus them, whether it's between countries, or let's say, US versus big oil. Because of this, you know, we're not actually really looking for new situations, new ideas, to kind of Forge bridges and make things work, I think we need a lot more about changing a trust culture kind of working together. And I remember it, I'm not sure which there was a meatless company as well, but it's beyond meat or impossible meat, I think Beyond The Beyond Meat, yes. And they actually spot the most massive growth, when they decided we're not going to take down the meat industry. It's not meatless versus meat. It's literally about collaborating, and helping people to see the value of actually having a more profitable business growth. So I think we need to see how we can even, you know, join forces, because a lot of people in in Big Oil, they also have kids, they also want a better planet. So let's see how we could start reaching above. And I think what needs to happen is young, in education, we do need more subjects talking about politics in a way where people feel they can make a difference. We want people to actually start, you know, communicating, realising that they can create the change, because the new generations, they are the ones who will be the most creative, the most passionate. So they shouldn't just be chasing grades, they should be feeling that they can control their destiny. And in its design, I think very well said and they are the ones who are going to be most affected, because they are going to inherit the planet from us. And, you know, and in fact, I want to just add there that you made a fantastic point that, you know, we need to collaborate and join hands rather than be confronting. And the point is, yeah, we need two things. Say that I'm just trying to recall the name of this native Indian chief from one of the First Nations in America and from North America. And he explained how his tribe would look at the next seven generations. And we need a similar thought process here, we seem to have forgotten, and, yes, the oil energy guys and the coal guys, everyone would have children and subsequent generations to think about. And, you know, none of them can escape what is otherwise coming on us. It was funny, I was gonna jump on LinkedIn the other day, because people were sharing an article about the dirty money from the banks, right? That you mentioned earlier, Karen? And I'm just gonna jump on. I'm like, Come on, guys. We've got to stop doing this. Right. So yes, the banks are giving money to the fossil fuel industry. But actually, the fossil fuel industry isn't investing in its infrastructure to make it safer. So there's more methane being released, because there's no investment that they can put into it, because they're not allowed to invest in it, right. And then on the other side, like the entire global infrastructure, the roads that we drive on the traffic lights, everything that we've got are funded by fossil fuels. So if you take them out of the economy, we're pretty much screwed. But the pensions industry, which is such an interesting industry to look into their money is in fossil fuels right now, because that's where they making money, right? So it you know, the shift that we've got, is everything's interlinked. And by creating enemies, well, first of all, we're not taking responsibility for our own part in that story. But by creating them as enemies, I don't actually think we're, we're going anywhere. It's like you were talking about the colonialism and the history in India. Praveen, like I've spoken to so many of my Indian friends, and they're still so angry with the British, you know, and it's like, at some point, we have to, you know, we have to stop being angry. Because we all got ourselves here, every single one of us and I just think we need to, we need to say, call the climate emergency, get the best brains in the world together, and sort out these big issues. You know, we need universal, universal basic income because your pension doesn't exist, you know, people think their pensions exists. Well, it's either going to be destroyed because the climate is destroyed, or it's going to be destroyed because fossil fuel industry is gonna go so. We just got to think in a whole new way. And I think it's just time to step up and do that. Pete, do you want to add? Yeah, look, you've said it all more eloquently than I can. Yeah, I think it's time is a is all was a very powerful message. Yeah. 100% agree with you. Oh, yeah, it's time. All right. So we've gone over a little bit, but I just want to, I knew I was going to enjoy this. And I know that we could go on for hours and hours. But I'm sure you've all got things to do. But I really wanted to say thank you to all three of you for coming and joining me, I know it's a, it's a big topic, but we, we've been in overshoot since the 70s. And that means we're taking more from the environment than then then it can provide right, so we've got a massive debt. And we need to get back. And countries like Jamaica and Indonesia, are the only countries who are close to not being an overshoot. Did you know that? I'd like to go, I want to go. I want to go to both of them and say how we can share it right. But you know, like, what, you know, we need human Exclusion Zones, we need to bring nature back and flourishing everywhere we can absolutely. You know, and we just we need to be in harmony. And we're not and people still don't want to talk about it. But I can assure you like this waiting to be physically impacted by climate. The longer we wait, the harder it is. Yeah. Right. And so we're sitting in the worst heatwave ever to hit Southeast Asia, and it's gonna get worse. And I'm literally terrible. So I'm, I'm trying to work out a way to protect the people who are living down the road, potentially tin roofs, because they work in a workers camp. They can't survive. I know, in India, there must have been massive deaths already. So absolutely. Yeah. So it doesn't really get captured. Because you know, people may die of kidney failure or heart ailment, because heat causes a lot of these issues, circulatory problems, neuro problems, kidneys. And I just want to just reinforce what you just said in my way that, you know, there's a quote from now with me now me clients, and she says, the biggest killer is inequality. You know, so that's even worse. So hate climate change? Yes. But inequality is the killer. Yeah. Prevent I might get you back when I do the diversity, inequality, climate courage, because I think it's a huge part of the conversation. Women and children. Absolutely. At the highest highest risk. I'd love that. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, quite the, you know, the refugee camps. They're full of children 50% of children and women. And it's a Yeah, and bringing women and indigenous people and all communities into into the conversation. Absolutely critical. Anyway, thank you, guys. Thank you so much. I'll end the broadcast now. And I hope everyone took something away from it in a couple of weeks. I'm gonna be Steve, my husband, and we're just going to talk about it's pretty hard being married to me at the moment, because, because, you know, there's a lot going on, and I'm trying to understand it, and he's the bouncing board. Right. But um, I thought it would be interesting, just to sort of, I want to talk about how I've spent a year in the Doom world, and how I'm sort of trying to pull myself out back into hope. If we have no hope. We've got no chance. Yeah. And there's that it's everyone needs to start getting involved. Yeah. All right. Thank you. So long Bye, guys.