Uncommon Courage

Climate Courage - we must address excessive fashion consumption

October 21, 2022 Andrea T Edwards, Jenni Thorman, Stephanie Dickson, Raye Padit, Susannah Jaffer, Episode 78
Uncommon Courage
Climate Courage - we must address excessive fashion consumption
Show Notes Transcript

The stats on the fashion industry and OURSELEVES are truly staggering – and not in a good way. The clothing sector produces between two and eight per cent of global carbon emissions, while textile dyeing is a major polluter of water, not to forget, luxury brands are central in massive deforestation rates. Fast fashion is out of control, and the average person is buying 60 per cent more clothing than 15 years ago, with each item kept for only half as long.

Recently we heard the breaking news about Shein, a fast fashion provider on steroids, where workers in its supply chain are paid as little as 3p to work 18-hour shifts. If they make a mistake on the 500 garments per day they are required to produce, workers will probably see their daily salary reduced by two-thirds… which is on top of the fact they have no weekends off, and get only one rest day per month.

Human suffering and environmental degradation on multiple levels, and we still buy it. In fact, “the global fast fashion market is expected to grow from $91.23 billion in 2021 to $99.23 billion in 2022 at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 8.8%. The market is expected to grow to $133.43 billion in 2026 at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 7.7%,” according to Research and Markets. 

We must address this! It’s time, so I am delighted to welcome a team of sustainable fashion super stars onto Climate Courage, and we are going to have an open, honest and frank conversation about an issue that must be addressed by every single one of us. 

My super star panel includes (in no particular order)

Jenni Thorman, founder of My Best Friend Jen, studio manager at Second Stitch, and someone who is equally passionate about social enterprise 

https://www.secondstitch.org.au/

https://www.mybestfriendjen.com/ 

Stephanie Dickson, founder of Green Is The New Black, host of the Live Wide Awake Podcast, speaker, and co-founder of UNTAM3D

https://greenisthenewblack.com/ 

Raye Padit, founder and CEO at The Fashion Pulpit, fashion designer and sustainable fashion advocate

https://www.thefashionpulpit.com/ 

Susannah Jaffer, founder of ZERRIN, former beauty and fashion editor, brand consultant and community builder

https://zerrin.com/

Let’s stop feeling useless in this fight. It’s stopping us from acting #UncommonCourage #ClimateCourage 

To get in touch with me, here I am

Websites www.andreatedwards.com and www.uncommon-courage.com
My book Uncommon Courage, An Invitation
And the Uncommon Courage workbook
My other book, 18 Steps to an All—Star LinkedIn Profile (2022 edition)   
LinkedIn @AndreaTEdwards
Twitter @AndreaTEdwards
Instagram

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Unknown:

All right. Welcome to climate courage. My name is Andrea Edwards. And just a reminder that climate courage is is all about talking about what you and I, what we can do to act on the planetary crisis. So today, we're going to address a topic that I'm very, very passionate about. And that is, how do we address our excessive fashion consumption. So, you know, this is one of those topics that I really, really struggle with. We know how bad the fashion industry is. And of course, we need clothes, right, of course. But we keep seeing the images of the landfills in Africa, filled with fast fashion, and clothes that we may or may anew everywhere once we've read the reports on the environmental destruction of the fashion industry, right across the board, including the deforestation in the Amazon, because of our leather goods. You know, we've watched buildings collapse and 1000s of women killed, because they're working in very unsafe conditions. And they're part of a supply chain, where the brands are not paying attention to the to the life that's in their system. But regardless of whether or not we know the true cost of the fashion industry, we continue to support it. And that's something that I really struggled with, and, you know, how do we, how do we change that mindset? And how do we start doing the right thing, especially by the people in the supply chain, but today to help me understand this industry because I definitely don't position myself as an expert when it comes to fashion. I'm absolutely delighted to welcome four people, four professionals who I have incredible respect for, for their passion for their commitment, and their knowledge on the fashion industry. So first up, I am going to introduce you to one of my great friends, Jenny Thalmann. She's calling in from Melbourne. And Jen is the founder of my best friend Jen that she'll brand. And she is also a studio manager at second stitch, which is a social enterprise in Melbourne. So I'm looking forward to hearing all about that. Then we have someone who I've known since she was in high school. And because I'm friends with her Mum, I'm also friends with her. And that is Stephanie Dixon. So Steph founded green is the New Black. And that's a brand and event in a content platform that she's taking global and it's really phenomenal. But you're also hosting a podcast, a podcast called Live Wide awake, and you've got another brand called untamed, which I want to hear more about. So thanks, Steph, I'm really happy you came and joined us today. Yes, thanks for having me. All right, we have one chap in the mix. And that is the lovely Ray paddock. So nice to have you here. So Ray is the founder and CEO of the fashion pulpit. And he's going to talk a lot more about that. But he's also a fashion designer and a sustainable fashion advocate. So Ray, awesome to have you here. Glad to be here. And finally, the incredible Suzanna Jaffa and she is the founder of zeren. And I actually met Susanna in her former life where she was a fashion and beauty and it's an expat life expert magazine write expert life expat living. Yeah. God, I knew I was gonna get it wrong. Okay, so just to give everyone a sense of what you guys all do. Suzanna, do you want to kick it off and just give us an insight into Ziran too, but just before we do, Ray, I think you've got some background noise there. Do you want to just mute? See if it's, I think it's you. Better yet, the noise is gone. Alright. Suzanna, tell us about Zirin and what you're what you're doing there? Sure. So hi, everyone. Yep. Thanks for introducing me. My name is Susanna. I'm the founder of sarin. So Darren is a multi concept platform founded in 2018. It's really a destination that really combines commerce content and brand consulting with the mission of championing emerging brands and mindful consumption and responsible production. So on a business model perspective, we're omni channel, retail marketplace, and we also have a media slash creative agency. So we're working with brands in different ways. And we have a b2b and b2c kind of audience. We create a lot of content at the same time to kind of demystify sustainable living sustainable fashion. And, you know, I guess a larger mission and a personal mission is to help create more connection within the industry retail it specifically in between all stakeholders, because I believe it's that kind of lack of empathy that has led us into a lot of the problems that we see today. So trying to kind of better connect consumers brands, supply chain industry producers to kind of move together towards a more, you know, brighter positive future for fashion is kind of our overarching kind of North Star, basically. Nice. Nice. Yeah, I love the work you do. And I've just shared the link. So go and check out sarin Ray the fashion pole. But you just had an anniversary, right? Yes, we did. We just turned four this year. So the fashion pulpit is basically a fashion circular hub, that we are trying to advance all the sustainable fashion practices. But we're focusing more on clothes swapping, and we do a lot of upcycling as well. thrifting and also education because I think education plays a vital role if you are trying to change the mindset on how we can be a more responsible consumer. So that's asked in a nutshell. All right. I'm just gonna see if I can get us bigger. Let's see. Yeah, there you go. And yeah, I'm never I'm not a stream yard expert. Steph. Okay. So green is the New Black you launch that was at a decade ago, feels like, not quite a decade and seven and a half years ago. So we launched in 2015. Yeah. And it's been incredible to watch what you've done. It's gone global. I mean, not many people can achieve that. But you're also doing a lot of other things. And I know you've got a lot of other ambitions in the in the future. So give us a summary of the past, and then also what you're willing to share about where you're looking to go next. Yeah, so I actually used to work in fashion, I used to run fashion festivals around Asia, which was always a dream job. And then I basically had an epiphany and an awakening where I understood the fashion was one of the most polluting and socially corrupt industries in the world. And that led me on a very deep sustainability rabbit hole where I basically then birth to green is new black in 2015. And our mission is really taking complicated issues and breaking them down into little green steps to help people along with their sustainability journeys. And we do that through media and content online, and also large scale conscious festivals, where we've now gathered people, almost 30,000 people over the years, and normally about 5000 for each event. So that's sort of like the big pillar that we do. And about a year ago, I was in Glasgow during cop, and I just got really jaded with the conversation and how governments were watering down, you know, all the commitments and everything. And I ended up stumbling into a web three rabbit hole and realised actually got really excited to be learning again, and to be Yeah, just discovering a whole new type of technology and way of doing things. And for me, I got very excited about how blockchain can actually help to solve some of the world's problems, and some, both environmental and social. And so after about six months of having my head deepened research, I co founded a community for women in web three, to learn about this technology to not be left behind, but also making sure that we're really focusing on it through an impact lens, because while there's a lot of controversy and misunderstanding about this technology, there's also a lot of good that can be achieved with it. And so I'm really trying to get people to focus their attention on the good side and what it can solve. Then the money grabs and everything else that kind of, you know, has like the bad opinion. Oh, so that's the two different worlds that I'm in but I'm fusing them into one. Yeah, nice. Nice. That's, I didn't know that so that you're doing that, so that's awesome. Jen. Yeah, um, I haven't upcycling brand called My best friend Jen. But I also have a brand for women who commute by bicycle, which is very big form of transportation here in Melbourne. And the product is made to last me to be repaired. And we incorporate like zero waste pattern making and try and use end of line products or fabrics. I also work as my day job at second stitch and we're a non for profit training organisation. We work with new migrant and refugee status Australians to educate them in the clothing and textile industry and hopefully gain you know, community. It's a place to practice English. It's a place to learn new skills and hopefully find you know, meaningful work. But we also have two social enterprises that run from there as well. Production team, our production team works with brands who we we use a lot of fabrics that are donated to us but we also work with end of roll from some Melbourne's large brands to turn them into accessories so that there's less waste being disposed of, or just sitting around doing nothing. And then we also have a alterations and repair department as well. So giving clothing the opportunity to, you know, breathe it new life again. But we also work with, again, some other brands in based in Melbourne to be their official alterations and repair department too. So making sure that we keeping clothing out of and textiles and roof out of landfill really? Let's see ambition. Yeah, nice. Nice. And this is such a massive name for that. All right, so let's, let's get stuck. Second, because I know Ray's Ray's a busy man. He's got something scheduled immediately after this. But I want to start with fast fashion. And I say it wrong, but shine. And I know that there's a more Chinese way of of using the word, but I just my mouth doesn't do that. Anyway, it's been in the spotlight the last few weeks. And it's basically about the slave like conditions of the employees in the supply chain. They've talked about how this tiny, tiny income that these ladies typically ladies make, and, you know, they're, they're working seven days a week, it's a terrible business. And Cheyenne, in particular, has been raking in the profits, they are of equal value to h&m and Uniqlo UNIQLO. Together, right, and it's gross, the numbers, I can share them later. Off The Charts, and they grew dramatically during the pandemic. And even though we know that what they do is bad for the environment, we're still supporting them. And they're obviously not the only fast fashion brand, but they now the biggest. So I just want to really talk about what about what are our views of fast fashion? And can we can we can we stop this space because it's it's the gross predictions are off the charts. And just before I hand it over to Susanna just give you an essence of what fast fashion is how its how its defined. And this is from that article in The Guardian when they were talking about it. fast fashion is designed or engineered to fit in with busy lives. Low prices invite low maintenance cheaper and quicker to chalk than to launder an iron. So basically, we're now treating our clothes, like a coffee cup from Starbucks. And I just to me, that's just shocking, right? Low risk or so it appears because it's cheap, you know, you buy it in haste. It doesn't fit, who cares? You just check it out. And the convenience is unrivalled. Swipe, click an answer the door. It almost sounds like a dating app. You know, and obviously the celebrities, social media influencers they're a big part of its success, you know, they're, you know, showing off their items. I don't know if you guys saw Billy Eilish, while the same item for a second time and it was called recycling. And it's like, That, to me is rewiring. But yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, it's crazy, where we've allowed to if we we really are at the point where clothes have such little respect that we don't even we don't even wear them before we throw them out. So, Suzanna, do you want to sort of just jump in and sort of give you a view of the fast fashion industry? Sure. I mean, there's a lot to unpack there. I think that I mean, I think everyone watching this, we can kind of ascertain already that fast fashion is a problem. And inherently within its business model, just for many of the reasons that you've described, Andrea, they can be applied to, you know, insert brand name here, you know, in terms of the practices, you know, I think in my view, if I can break it down simply, you know, there's three key areas and reasons why I feel like we need to fix and rethink the fast fashion business model because disclaimer, I'm also a realist right now that I don't feel like it's going anywhere anytime soon. So condemning brands isn't actually helping. So I'm trying to I'm in this mode of thinking about solutions at the moment. So number one, yes. three core areas really, for me and why it's such an issue is yes, supply chain. Historically, you know, the fast fashion supply chain is notoriously opaque. From you know, factory level really is where, you know, all of our garments are made by someone a human even if they're operating machines. And I think that what really came to light more so over the last five years and increasingly with the pandemic is, you know, just the poor working conditions and often just very questionable working conditions that brands are allowing their clothes to be made under. I mean, you can hark back to the Rana Plaza factory collapse is a big instigating, and like a woke moment for a lot of brands and consumers to realise, you know, the the impact of, you know, cheap labour and therefore cheap practices. But I think it is this lack of awareness for a lack of respect, and again, empathy for people who are making our clothes, which is a really, really big issue. And it's, you know, it's inextricably tied to, you know, socio economic situations, a lot of our clothes are made in developing countries, with looser or more lapse or deliberately lapse labour laws. You know, it's no. But that being said, there's also labour exploitation when it comes to fashion happening in developed countries, too. So it's, that is one really, really big issue that needs addressing, and there's lots of organisations like remake Fashion Revolution, you know, and many individual brands who are kind of trying to raise awareness of this issue, but it's still something that's not really understood, I feel by a mainstream consumer who is only concerned about how much their clothes are costing in the shop or online. The other thing for me is materials. So a lot of the fabrics that typically fast fashion brands use are synthetic. So that's polyester, that's nylon, that's acrylic. And the reason why these are such an issue beyond the fact that they are produced with such frequency, you know, she NS numbers are one thing, you've got Zara, you've got Inditex group, you've got all of the rest of the fast fashion brands we've all kind of grown up with, right? They those fabrics are not biodegradable. So they are essentially the same. You know, polyester dress, is, you know, polyester itself as a fabric. And all of these synthetic fabrics are derived from fossil fuels. So if you're angry about single use plastic and plastic bottles in the ocean, and you know, all of these kinds of things, you should also be thinking about these fabrics, and like the fabrics that you're actually buying and wearing, because the majority of us are wearing plastic on a day to day basis. And these could be plastic blends as well, because you can blend synthetics with natural fibres. And that is an infrastructure problem, because it's quite difficult to recycle. So, you know, a dress that you thrown out 30 years back could still be festering away in a landfill somewhere. And that's kind of that's kind of frightening. So but on a large scale, when it comes to fast fashion, that's another massive thing that needs change and fixing a lot have responded by opting to recycle. But that's not necessarily fixing the core issue of overproduction of fabrics or using, you know, recycled synthetic textiles still do not biodegrade. So, that's kind of a problem that a lot of brands are looking to solve. The next problem really, I think, you know, comes down to the that mindset shift, and consumer attitudes, because what fast fashion has done, I think historically in the way that we've all grown up with it as a cultural phenomenon is we have come to expect clothes to cost a certain price. And therein kind of lies the crux of the issue when you come to trying to make the industry more sustainable, using better fabrics, paying higher wages, you know, fixing and improving that supply chain means cost increases, it just has to, and it's there. And we work with a number of sort of smaller independent brands who were kind of championing all these things. But they are more of a mid tier price point and cannot compete with the price of fast fashion. It's just not possible. Even Zara cannot compete with the price of Shi n which I'd classify as more of an ultra fast fashion brand. So I feel like we as consumers have come to expect this and therefore that need to change our habits is that that's a big kind of roadblock in terms of Yeah, mindset shift. And I think that's even harder because it's changing attitudes and changing culture. And yeah, that's those are three big areas where I feel fast fashion has had the most detrimental effects. Yeah. Yeah, nice. Stiff re chin. I totally agree with you on the shaming front. Like it doesn't it's, it's, it's not working. So we've got it. We've got to think we've got to address this in a different way. Who wants to jump in? Yeah, I was listening to a podcast today actually, from ABC called threads and it's It's just such a multifaceted issue. I just don't know if if we, as individuals can have like the willpower, like when you when you look at who's buying it, they're not going to stop. I don't know how we can spread that message any further. Because this message has been around for 100 years that the first factory fire was in New York in a shooting factory. And prior to Rana Plaza collapsing, similar conditions that were happening in Bangladesh, was what happened 100 years ago in New York, where they were working their labour to long long hours, locking them in overnight. And so that, you know, they couldn't take breaks or leave. And the fire started, and that was happening through throughout Bangladesh, before Rana Plaza. You. Yeah, Andrew, you talk about a rope monster that is, you know, comes up on your beach. In places like Ghana, they have textile monsters, yeah, they're like tangles, of protective garments wrapped up and entwined on each other, and embedded in the sand. You know, I just don't know if we are capable as a human race, to do anything to stop ourselves from buying it. You know, and there's so many influences, reasons why we buy and they make it easier for us as well. I couldn't help but think while listening to this podcast, like, when is the government going to step in? You know, why, like it just when they're talking about these tonnes of textile garments that are being produced? What about tariffs? What about reducing the amount of textiles that are being imported in any one country? Like? I don't know if that's the answer, either. But I just kind of made me think if we can address it as individuals, why won't our government and of course they won't, because they want us to consume? It's, it's good for the country, for us to be spending money. So yeah, it's it's such a huge issue. And it and I don't think there's going to be one one answer. I think it needs to come from everybody from our governments. I don't think Shane's going to stop themselves. Why would they? They're making so much money. Well, that's an area of China, China that got absolutely hammered in the 70 day drought. Right. So the the infrastructure that supports the business, you know, I mean, so surely China's going to have to look at itself. I mean, I can see the southern part of China having to migrate up north, because the South will become unlivable. So, I mean, China's going to have to face the climate emergency because they're facing it, in reality, right. And, you know, I think it's, the fashion sector is responsible for the same amount of emissions as flying and ship and the shipping industry combined. You know, so it's a massive impact on on global emissions and somebody takes Yeah, and it takes three days now to get from an idea from a designer or really, it's stolen, stolen idea. takes three days now to get it out and into the shelves, where it used to take nine months. So not only is it his labour, cheap from from, you know, these countries that and you know, it's if it's not a you know, like cheap labour just moves from country to country, basically. So, yeah, wherever, wherever the labour masses are, there will be cheap labour, but now, it's even cheaper to get it into the store because you don't have that nine months worth of production, planning and design and yeah, it's it's. So it just overwhelms me with how big the issue is. And it makes me almost speechless, because it's just such a huge, multifaceted problem. And it's going to take some multifaceted answers and resolutions to solve the problem. Yeah, stuff Yeah, I think for me, I, I focus a lot on the psychology aspect and just why there's such a huge gap in what people say and what they the action they actually take. And this has always been the part that I always find fascinating and, and there's like report after report that that keeps saying, you know, Gen Z are going to be environmentally sustainable. I've even seen one report that came out recently that called them like the sustainability generation. And there was a 2020 20 ones Allender report that actually looked at like the attitude behavioural gap. And in general, it's like, you know, 60% say that transparency important to them, you know, and then it's like, 20% actually actively seek out information and all the stats are kind of like that. It's, you know, like, 50%, say this, and then none of them actually do it. And I just think this is not just for Gen Z. This is like a multi generational problem. And I think what we've kind of understood is people really still, unfortunately, for the in the masses view sustainability as a sacrifice. They view it as something that they have to give up in the short term, or that they have, maybe there's like social status, like, you know, associated with buying certain products, and they're just not willing to give that up yet, or, yeah, they're just really see that their actions, like it's so small, like, how do my actions really matter? You know, people look at it as like, I'm just like a drop in the ocean. But I think this is part of the big problem is, is we have these psychological barriers, and we have these attitude gaps. And we need to figure out, okay, but how do we make people realise foster that all of those small actions is part of the collective change that is required? And I know that's, that's the solution. But it's also like a big part of the problem, because people think, well, no one else is doing it, or, you know, like, why should I have to do it and other people don't. And there's just still this, this kind of push and pull, which is really difficult to like, deeply understand. And I'm certainly not a psychology major. But I do find it really fascinating to try and deep dive and understand like, what is it that's really driving people, because I look at myself, and obviously everyone on this call, you know, we've all had our awakenings, I had mine, like seven and a half years ago. And it took me a while to like, completely detox fast fashion out of my life, because I was definitely one of those people that was purchasing every month and getting deliveries to the house. But eventually, I just couldn't do it anymore. You know, it didn't align with my values. And I really, you know, there was a shift in my psychology where I realised actually no, it is I feel better. And I know that it's better for my skin, it's better for my family, it's better, you know, in general, and I'm part of the collective that's actually, you know, trying to push for more, and then it's this beautiful process of discovery where you then, you know, I fell into pre loved and, you know, whatever, we can go deep into all that stuff. But I think, what is it, I still can't kind of unlock how to activate more people Foster and I think everyone's on their own journey with it. And it's like, we're so there's so much hard facts thrown in our face every day, there's so much negativity, and even this, like she and stuff that's happening right now. I mean, it's all over my Instagram. And I know I live in an echo chamber, but everyone seems to be talking about it in different, like groups that I'm part of, as well. So people are talking about it, and how many are actually going to take action for that? And what do we really have to do to drive more? At what point are they just so numb, and I think a huge part of it is because they're not directly experiencing it is the same with climate change, like only once a people start to really directly feel the impact, or they see it or it starts affecting their daily lives, are they going to realise how big this is, and the part they're going to have to play moving forward. So I think there's the distance and the disconnect. And then this is attitude and psychology thing. And then there's fashion, I mean, there's all the emotions and all the aspiration and everything that goes around with it, because you know, we've grown up in a consumer society. So all of those messages have been ingrained in us. And they're coming at us a million times a day. So, you know, I also read a really interesting report that said that a lot of people, you know, there may be vegan, or they they see themselves as environmentalist or they won't fly as much. But they, it's hard for them to make the jump of fashion still, because of I think all of those intrinsic and emotional values as well. So it's such a fascinating conversation. And there's just so much depth to it. And we can go so deep, but I guess that's kind of where I get stuck. Yeah, right. I think that makes it easier to pay as well. So it's not just that all that emotional stuff when you've got something in your hand. And all your credit card details are stored in here as well. And you're getting this, like emotions about something that you want to buy. It's just a couple of clicks away. You know, it's easy, it's too easy. Yeah. But one of the industries it's really been taken to task at the moment is the marketing advertising PR industry. I don't know if you guys have been monitoring that that's my field. So I've certainly been paying attention. So really tackling that and aspirational marketing, and that the whole psychology of that. And also, you know, like I think when you wake up And when you sort of step out of the trap of consumption, and you look at it through such different eyes, like you would sort of like you were saying stuff, but you also see the game that's been played for the first time. And it's quite staggering, right? What's going on? Right? Do you want to jump in? What do you think? Yeah, so I think for me, for the work that I have been doing since 2015, there's just a lot of confusion also, and a lot of unclear things that that's why sustainability in fashion is not really moving as fast as we would want it to be. So the very first one that I have seen and observed through also with the community that I am working in is, number one, I think fashion in general is it's hard for us to separate that from all the negative impacts, I mean, to see the negative impacts of what fashion is creating, because that's what everyone mentioned that fashion is, is actually about aspiration, it's about beauty. It's not It's never about functionality. Like if we talked about the plastic straw, it was easy for us to transition to a reusable one, versus the single plastic because the function of this choice for you just to drink. It's never about the aesthetic, but with fashion. Everyone talks about sustainability. But at the end of the day, when you are shopping you are considering on how would that dress looks good. And you and that's basically the consideration what we have seen, even with the swapping movement that we have, sustainability is a good entry point. But for them to stay engaged and for them to stay in the movement, it needs the product or the service needs to speak for itself, which is would it helped me to look good, would it helped me to be presentable when I meet my friends when I go to one event, because that's the function of fashion and and, and something that is hard for us to separate from the fashion industry. And I think the second challenge that we have seen also is that we are very much unsure of what sustainability is in the fashion industry. A lot of us sees that as a very linear way, which is if you want to be sustainable, you just need to buy organic cotton and it's there's no colours, there's no prints which people's assumes that it's going to be like ugly and not presentable, which is not fashion. And that's something that we don't understand. If we talked about fashion, and then the other one, the other understanding of what sustainability is or not sustainable is the fast fashion, the ultra fast fashion. And as not understanding that there's actually a lot of ways for us to be sustainable. But it's hard for us to think that there's, there's different ways for us to do that. Because we are also, you know, programmed to just pick a and b, there's nothing in between. So I think that's the hard part of like, if, if I want to be sustainable, I cannot buy fast fashion item. So people when they have that dilemma, if they want to go and be they just, you know, go to their old habit because it's easier for them and not really digging deeper of like, there's a lot of ways for you to do it and understanding of how you can be sustainable. Yeah. Alright, so one of the quotes that I liked is fast fashion is far from cheap. Someone somewhere is paying the real price. And I thought that was very accurate. And it's also somewhere that somewhere message is paying the price. And that's the environment. For you know, a lot of the focus at the moment is obviously on fast fashion. And I think it was about 12 months ago, a report came out that was linking some of the top brands in the world to deforestation in the Amazon. And that's obviously through the leather products. So, you know, I see the fashion industry as equally excessive. And it's obviously responsible for the same things environmental pollution, deforestation, slave labour, unsafe working conditions, and more. You guys will know more about this than me. But, you know, we used to have two fashion seasons a year, and maybe one or two sales a year. And now it's like it's every week, but actually if you bring in the super fast fashion chains, it's it's basically on the hour, you know, we have we have new fashion options. You know, with genuine we're talking about the landfills and Africa that are full of the clothes that we might wear once or maybe not even wear once because it didn't fit. So you know, we can't be bothered sending it back. So we just throw it in the trash. But the other side of things that I found personally really heartbreaking is when the pandemic hit all of the all of the top global fashion houses around the world basically abandon their supply chain workers right across the Asia Pacific in particular. Cambodia was hammered and they left Have these women in absolute destitution and didn't provide any support for them to get them through. And obviously, in those cases, they can risk obviously, domestic abuse, abuse and violence but also be being sold as slaves. Right. So you know, and the other side of the fashion industry that I struggle with these women by a predominantly by fashion, and it's an industry where women suffer for our fashion. And that disconnect, that's the thing that I, you know, when I buy something, you know, I work hard to find out where it comes from, you know, and genuinely, you will pick me up if you see me by something that you don't believe is correct. And I really appreciate that because of because I do try hard to know, but you know, how do we make sense of that just the broader fashion industry and our lack of connection. And it's actually like the drugs, movement as well, right? When you see people partying on cocaine in New York. And then you see the image imagery of murder and more in Latin America, like people aren't connecting the dots there either, you know, so we don't seem very good at making the connection between what we do and the suffering that it creates. Anyone got any thoughts? I know, that's a big, lots of issues in that one. I would say, as you know, somebody who has been a sewing teacher amongst all the things that I do for coming up to about 10 years is one of the things that students will say to me, when they first come into the classroom is I want to learn how to sew because buying clothes is so expensive. And I'm going to make it for cheaper. What happens by the end of the three week, beginners course, is they realise that it's not actually any cheaper to make their own clothes, but they've just gained so much more respect for what people who make our clothing. You know how it's made. So I would say to everybody, for, you know, not just that, but also to learn. So you can mend your clothes and keep them out of landfill, but learn how to sew if you get gain, gain respect for the people who make your clothes and learn how to sew, and ultimately learn how to fix your own garments to keep them in landfill. Yeah. Research the brands that you're buying from? Yeah, I mean, it's such a big, like, the actually, there was a before we came on, I was talking to you about a brand that I wanted to, if it came up, I wanted to be able to make sure I got their web address, right. But their Australian brand, the brand name, or their website, I think is a dot b, c h world. And they have their, their website is completely transparent. They also have like pages dedicated to their answers. Because as I said before, it's multifaceted. The answers that they have come up with, to, you know, to to help the fashion industry and educate people and to stop their product from being part of the problem. But they've also got a disclaimer about how they're continuing that work as well. Because even though it's probably one of the most thorough websites I've ever seen, as far as education, and transparency, and solutions, they know that they haven't yet found all the answers and they constantly working on it. So yeah, you can research but how do you know, like, I was looking at Better Cotton Initiative the other day, because you see it a lot in affordable lifestyle brands like came up. And I just wondered how good it actually was for the planet. And cotton really itself? Well. Atlanta organic cotton, I think, right touched on this before. It's not actually a solution. I mean, sure, it's better in some ways, but in other ways. It's worse. It takes more land to grow the same kinds of yields more water. It's often grown in places where food can be grown. It's in very arid, dry places as well. I mean, look at the Murray River here in Australia. It's very, very dry and dusty. Not at the moment actually. So we're having floods, funny that so has the rest of the world, southern hemisphere at least? Yeah. So, um, I've lost track of what I was saying, because because there is so many different ways to take this conversation. But yeah, it's really hard to actually get to the bottom of where your clothing comes from. And unless the brands tell you where it's coming from, and also, they often don't know where it's all coming from, as well. So it's, it's really challenging to find those kinds of answers, Better Cotton Initiative. You know, those large, affordable lifestyle brands, they fund that. So how do we know how good it really is? transparency and trust, you know, there's issues and we're gonna have a cotton shortage, because the crops in the US were wiped out and the crops in Pakistan were wiped out. So cotton is going to be in short supply for years to come. And that that potentially could create even more demand for fast fashion, because because we can't get cotton. So it's kind of it's kind of a bit of a bit of a concern. But what about what about what about you other guys? What do you think, on the the luxury brands and their lack of, they're just, it's from what I'm seeing, you know, and I'm not like, you guys, I don't spend all my time in these in this topic. But there's just not, they're just not changing. They're just not changing, you know. And then like many other industries, they're not changing. But you know, nature will ultimately decide our future if we don't decide first, right, so, and nature is deciding, I'm sitting in a flood here as well. Steph, did you want to jump in? Yeah. I don't know if you guys have seen the documentary slay yet. Yeah, it's free on, I think it's a water bear. I'm forgetting the name of the streaming platform, but you can just Google it. It's amazing, very, very eye opening documentary by a friend, I think of a few of us here anyway, Rebecca capelli. And it really pulls back the glamorous curtain of the luxury fashion mystery, and it deep dives and shows what happens to get fur and to get leather, and how dirty it really, really is. And so I think having documentaries like that, and resources like that, that truly show showcase how, like what really happens to get the products that we are using on a daily basis. And to prevent some of that disconnect that that happens, I think is really important. And I think it's only a matter of time. And we've seen a lot of brands from consumer pressure banding for and a lot of fashion weeks around the world bending for, but that's just one animal product that's used widely in the fashion industry. So, you know, we've seen that consumer pressure and collective action can actually lead to some, you know, kind of global change in the fashion industry. And so I think it's only a matter of time, that kind of the leather conversation also probably catches up to that. And just, you know, because when you when you see it, it's really hard to unsee it and to not look at leather products in a completely different line. And so I think luxury is going to be having, hopefully, you know, a bit of a, you know, a bit of a reality check, when more people like when we really had that collective tipping point. But I think we're a little bit far away from that at the moment. But it is good to watch those kinds of things and to really educate and then consumer pressure and headlines and stuff it does, it does work on the fashion industry. And we've seen it in the past. So I think, you know, just need to like, have really good collective support and people getting behind certain things, because there are things that have shifted and that we've seen, you know, it's not all doom and gloom, there is some positive things that are happening and some things that we can say, Okay, well, that works. Let's let's recreate that. Let's do it again. And so I think, yeah, the luxury industry has a lot to answer for, but they're also very good at hiding their tracks. And so we need more people like Rebecca who are gonna go out there and risk their lives to do very investigative journalism and, and then, you know, be able to share that with the masses and for free. So I think she was very clever about the way she did a lot of that, and we have a lot of support for what she's done. Well, someone else, I haven't had a chance to watch it, I've had it on my list, and I need to find it. So one of the things that I've sort of witnessed in Asia with is emerging wealth, you know, in any of the luxury brands that you got a line out the door, I actually assaulted in Melbourne as well, which I refuse to get in line to go into a shop. It just just, I just don't get that how anyone could line up to go into a Gucci store. But the growth in Asia, I mean, I was reading a McKinsey report, I mean, it's it's skyrocketing the Chinese wealth, you know, in purchasing luxury brands, you know, then they're not paying attention to the stuff that we're paying attention to. It's just not even part of the language yet. And obviously, it needs to happen within the culture that that change happens and maybe what the Chinese government is doing at the moment where it's trying to sort of cure A tale The excessiveness of the culture that sort of grown in China, maybe that government will actually be successful. But I'm, you know, I'm very concerned about what I'm seeing, from a growth perspective, just in this region alone. I mean, do you guys feel that too? Is energy going to rain? Yeah, you know, I think that, ultimately, fashion is a business. And profits are predicated on growth and selling more, you know, new collections with this is regardless of whether you're talking about fast fashion brands, luxury brands, mid tier wherever you kind of are on that scale. And I think, you know, now what we're seeing with the sustainability conversation kind of happening concurrently is that a lot of the world's biggest brands, again, wherever they sit on that scale, have these legacy issues of, you know, the what the amount that they produce that the size of which they've grown to. We started by talking about fast fashion, which isn't itself one of the most profitable ways to make fashion, you're making the biggest margins, your cost price is the lowest possible luxury fashion. It's the general assumption that the cost price, ie the price that it cost to make your products is a lot higher. And generally, I would say that a lot of luxury brands do produce better quality than fast fashion, but they're still using similar materials. Like you can walk into a long shop store right now, for example, and a lot of the dresses are polyester. There's different grades of that, you know what I mean? But there's also very, very, very different markups. A bit of a sidebar, but yeah, it's this growth at year on year growth as a measure of success for fashion business year on year growth, in terms of sales, I think, is one of the key tension points, when it comes to how do we move to a more sustainable industry because, you know, sustainable fashion in itself, can the fashion industry but be sustainable of year on year, they are looking to grow and grow and sell more and sell more, wherever you sit on that kind of tear and, you know, price point and product that you're selling, it almost feels to me like we will continue to have this cycle of conversation until that kind of elephant in the room is addressed. And that's not easy, because that means, you know, looking at ways to measure the success of a business in a different way beyond just profit from sales. And we're seeing this, I would say we're seeing businesses shift their business models, you have h&m which has moved into secondhand, you have other businesses and platforms, even brands, which are known for more sustainable practices like Gani and other major brands launching resale, you will see seeing, you know, luxury brands look at it from anything from b2b services to resale, pre loved, kind of building that into their business model. So you're seeing this, I believe we're seeing this shift, and we're gonna continue to see this shift into more circular business models as a way to shift revenue. And perhaps I think in the future, I think it's yet to be seen, and I think it's quite a way off. But I think that this is going to perhaps be a way for brands to produce a bit less, or that's at least what I would hope because ultimately, I think the elephant in the room is that's what the world actually needs. We don't need the amount and frequency of new stuff that is being produced, you know, whether it's a Chanel bag, whether it's a Zara, Jean, whatever it is, whatever it is, because otherwise, we continue to perpetuate the traditional cycle of consumption that is both demanded by consumers. And you know, driven as well by brands. It's like the cycle of you know, desire, everything that links links into what Seth mentioned earlier about psychology. I'm also super fascinated by that and how, how we can really shift mindsets and attitudes that kind of has to come at all levels. And I think not just for consumers, but brands and how how they view their business in order to reassess growth. There are a lot of conversations about this where you can google there's, you know, the term d growth and the concept of D growth, which has been discussed a lot in kind of fashion, sustainable fashion and academic circles over the last five to 10 years. One lady I love who has done a lot of research on this is Kate Fletcher. I thoroughly recommend anyone reading her work. She has a project that she started, I think it was a couple of years ago called Earth logic, which is kind of a charter of setting out ways which the fashion industry could move towards. Move away from its reliance on, you know, the year on year growth predicated by the sale of new things. But that concept in itself is really, really scary to fashion industry people. It means disrupting, and it's not a word that's like well received, to be honest, it's like D growing, what do you mean D growing, like growing less, because our whole culture is, it ties into, you know, the whole idea of what success really is, you know, we should be getting better, we should be selling more, we should be making more profits every year, we should be growing, growing, growing. So I highly recommend people look up that work. And like that concept, because I think it's while a way of actually being implemented or even really addressed by a lot of brands, I think it has some really, you know, Jim, nuggets of information and ideas and concepts to think about to really make a difference when it comes to making the industry more sustainable, genuinely doing so I would say, say, awesome. All right, I know Ryan needs to jump off. So if you've got two minutes before you can jump off, yep. Alright, so I want to talk about solutions, right? Because there's no point talking about it if we're not going to come up with the solutions. And we're gonna start with you, right. So there's this campaign called take the jump, and if you guys have come across it, and basically what they're saying is, if we want to get sustainable, we should not be buying any more than three new items of clothing a year. And I know a lot of people would screech the concept of that. But it's a really good, it's a really good way to sort of think about it right? If you can only buy three things a year. That's good, right? But I think most women would buy more than three brows a year. So I don't know how realistic that is. Right? So but Right, like, give us give us some give us some tips. Right? I agree. I think the diff sustainability comes in different forms and shapes. And we also need to understand that we have to contextualise that, like what you ever mentioned, if a person is, is it ideal for me to just have three items, but sometimes also, we have to have an idea that being sustainable, like we have been sold out to the idea that sustain we need to buy our way into sustainability, where most of the time otherwise being sustainable actually is looking in what we have in our closet and using what we have in our closet or in our wardrobe. So I think that's one step that we can actually take in for us to be easily be sustainable. Not just looking outside of what we can do, but rather looking inside of what we already have and what we can do with them. So I think that's a very easy step for everyone, because everyone has that. And, and and mentioning about having it contextualise so I think the very thing that we all should should do is the lifestyle that we that we live in. So for us to search or provide solution for different things because like, for example, in our community, we have different members who has different kinds of lifestyle, we have a person who works in an advertising industry where they need to wear different clothes and and, and assumed not to repeat clothes. So because of that kind of lifestyle, they would either go for a subscription based or leg swapping where they can wear an item that is good. And one time I don't repeat, but in a way, they are still a sustainable. So I think the very important thing also is not just jumping into what other peoples are doing just because it's called sustainable, but rather, going and understanding what your lifestyle is and finding a solution that will fit into that lifestyle. So it's easier for you to transition to that solution rather than just adopting what others are doing just because you think it's right for you. So I think that's the only two things that I would say if we're looking at solutions in a very personal perspective. So again, as much as I would want to stay, unfortunately, have a next appointment. But thanks for having me, and I hope to see everyone again. Thanks, Alan. We'll see you soon. All right. All right. So when when Brian was talking about the subscription model that actually reminded me of right minting clothes because there's that's becoming I think it was Marks and Spencers that announced that they're gonna trial renting Have you guys seen that they're doing something like that so which was very revolutionary we got Elia here who's just I just put a comment up but it was covering race face but you know, she agrees with radios like really looking at what you own going through your closet and making sure you know what you keep What gives you joy but sorry, who is that uses? Oh, that was that was me I was I was just going to say that there's a couple of smaller models here in Australia of like small store owners who were selling on consignment or selling secondhand but also hiring as well. So it is something that I mean, and people have been hiring out handbags and other kinds of high end accessories for for a while. But this was more. This was more like vintage level. I agree with Ray to like, buy less, I like the ethos of buy nice, not twice. And I recommend like an emotional durable design ethos as well. So when you when you buy something, have some kind of kinetic connection to it. Like I bought this top from the markets from a graphic designer, it was the last one she had there. She was really nice girl, she hand draws all these Australian animals and make my own clothes. If you're repairing your own clothes, you bought something on holidays, somebody handed it down to you like it's your grandmother's or something like that. They're all emotional kinetic connections that you can have to clothing. If it's designed well so that emotional designed, well, then you're going to even when you don't want to wear it anymore, it can end up in an up up shop somewhere. Somebody else is going to recognise it for its beautiful design, and they're going to keep wearing it. What we're seeing now is an influx of those cheaper brands being pushed into the charity stores to be resold, but the quality at that level is still pretty low. And we're seeing less and less good quality secondhand clothing because people just aren't buying at that higher end anymore. And when when it does need repairing they just throwing it out rather than having it repaired and op shops don't have the facility to repair it either. So that ends up in landfill too. And then durable. Make sure it's gonna last and when it is starting to break down, do repair it and embrace repairing to like if you go onto Instagram, you can see lots of people under the hashtag doing visible mending or she goes down mending, which is about embracing that the fact that the clothes are mended, not trying to hide it using embellishments contrasting threads with with woven patterns, geometric patterns to repair your clothing but also add a little bit interest in personalising those items too. I think it's really important to remember to going back to not buying so much just because it's in your wardrobe. If you're not wearing it, it's still textile waste. So you know, it doesn't have to be in landfill to the textile waste. So do yeah, as I said, I think that's when you say name. Look at what's in your wardrobe. And if you're not wearing it, pass it on to somebody who is if it's broken, and you're not going to wear it, mend it or have somebody mend it and and then pass it on don't make it somebody else's problem. We like many charities, we get a lot of dumping on us as well and we can't afford to dispose of it. So for us, it's not clothing, it's it's textile waste. See people come over like fabric waste. And so people come in and just sneaky drop a little bag of something off to us. Now, if that was a valuable donation way creeping around, so don't if you're embarrassed by your donation, it's not worth donating. Find another way to dispose of it. That's ethical. And what's really big here in Melbourne at the moment is a brand called apparel that similar brands have been around for a while, like textile waste, Melbourne. I think that's a textile recyclers Melbourne. They look at often down cycling fabrics to make them into something else but the difference between textile recyclers in Melbourne and apparel Is apparel have really put a lot of emphasis into the marketing and getting people to upcycle or sorry, break, recycle or down cycle, their unwanted textiles that are no good for selling. So yeah, what's it what what's up recycling the textile recycling companies now? There's a couple around the two that I know of is Melbourne textile recyclers and apparel. In Asia, I haven't heard of that in Asia. I mean, there's obviously different opportunities. But I haven't seen anything about textile recycling in this room. Sorry, there is a textile recycling. Oh, go ahead, Jenny. Go ahead. No, there you go. There is a textile recycling plant in Malaysia that one company here called Clute. Works with Kluber is a platform that facilitates you know, circular fashion. They do a lot of clothes swaps they do. They collect donations, they recently started started an initiative whereby you can adopt a recycling bin, which has been kind of initiatives that they're working with different agencies and stakeholders on but the concept is you can drop your products into these bins, and it's actually recycled, redistributed. So it goes through the kind of layer of Rs items that can be repaired or sent one place it and they are then recirculated at the swap events, items, certain items can be upcycled. And anything that cannot be reused in any way, shape, or form is then sent to this recycler, which is based in Malaysia. But Singapore does not have a textile recycling plant. To my best knowledge, and I could be wrong. So but that is investment that's come into this area, and there is some sort of plan for that. I'd need to look up the exact details. But I have heard of that on the horizon, actually creating a recycling plant here on the outskirts. But yeah, if I can find that name of the textile recycle? I'll let you know. All right. And then what else was? What was what is some of your tips of what people can do to just to massively reduce our fashion consumption? What would you what would you suggest? I think, really, you know, Jenny made some amazing points. And I agree with all of them. I think that's my way of, I mean, having gone through that journey, myself as a consumer, as well, my way of approaching things is really just, you know, thinking more deeply about if I really want something, I think this is something that anyone can really do. And reducing consumption doesn't just mean reducing your consumption of new products in a store, whether that, you know, whether that be a fast fashion brand, whether that be a sustainable brand, whatever it is that you're acquiring firsthand. You can acquire too much secondhand stuff, too. You know what I mean? You can get addicted I know people who've become addicted to acquiring secondhand stuff, because it feels like you have an excuse to because it's secondhand. Like you can you can over thrift you can you know you can over swap. It's something Ray and I discuss sometimes about phenomenon he sees. I think it really just comes down to trying to get to know you and your tastes and your preferences just that bit more. I think one big reason why we often create a lot of textile waste ourselves and, you know, we look into our wardrobes and we think that's not me, that's not me, like, Why did I ever wear that is because we are also on our personal journey of growth in life. You know, I think, you know, we change our tastes change our style changes, you know, that's I think that that's natural. And but I think one thing that has helped me massively, it's just really trying to be more in tune with what my personal style really is. And that's helped me avoid a lot of purchases that I would have regretted or you know, items that would have sat festering in my wardrobe and really, that's just the the best way I can say to start doing that is maybe looking at what you already have. Seeing if there's a trend do I have lots of jeans on my big Am I a big jeans and T shirt wearer you know, for example, or do I have a lot of like one pieces so why not own a lot of separate? It's like, what do you feel most comfortable in? A personal stylist I work with Sarah and on her, Instagram is the RE outfitter. She's actually a personal stylist who, you know, operates with sustainable values, she taught me this really awesome chip. And I think anyone could do this who's listening over the course of the next week or two weeks, I think two weeks is a good idea. All of the clothes that you actually wear day to day, at the end of the day, you might have to delay your washing, leave them out in that pile. And like you can see then by the end of the week, or etcetera, what clothes that you've actually been gravitating to more in your wardrobe. And then look at the rest of that stuff that you don't wear and then analyse. Okay, what I try and pair this with some of these items I obviously wear all the time. If not, then I don't know, it's kind of spotting those trends and patterns with yourself. And that can in turn inform how and why you buy in the future. And I think that that's a tip that I've taken on over the last year, and it's kind of helped me reduce my consumption overall, because it eliminates a lot of things that I thought that I might want. But then I realised actually, no, this isn't me, this isn't fashion, that suiting my lifestyle, it's not suiting, you know, my day to day, it's not actually suiting my personality. And I think learning, you know more about your personal style, it's a bit of a journey of self discovery, I think. But that just can help to reduce unnecessary consumption and hopefully lead to you owning a wardrobe full of things that you genuinely love. And a very, you know, again, As Jenny mentioned, mentioned, had that kind of kinetic connection to, and yeah, that's, I think something anyone, regardless of, you know, socio economic background, can you know, or accessibility size, you know, can look at doing today. Yeah, I love I love both of you mentioning that sort of connection and, and thinking, you know, you know, we need to think more, but if, you know, that disconnect from what we were, I think, you know, I think it's a really important point to raise, you know, we I mean, I, I was at the tail end of you had your Sunday best, because I'm a bit older than you guys. Right. One good outfit. Yeah. And you're the tail end of that, too. Right. But, um, you know, we're so far from that time. And but it's not progress. We think it is, but it's not actually progress, because it's doing so much damage, Steph, what would? What are your tips? Um, I think there's a few different things. So there are some things I think that we're always going to buy new, like, I personally wouldn't want someone else's activewear because, you know, especially being in Asia, like in Singapore and the humidity. So I think there's always going to be some things that you probably like underwear and bras that you're just gonna get new. So for those new purchases, I think I always message the brands, if it's not clear on their website, and just try to have a dialogue. Like if there's something I found that I really like, I just want to know, like, where to factory, how's it made? What the fabrics and, you know, there was one brand that I messaged a couple of years ago, and they were super unsustainable and they said, Actually, we're working on it. So like, come back in like two years and check us out again, I was like, okay, and I did, and they were now producing ethically. So then I was like, happy to purchase from them, you know, so I just think there's like a patience and like the the instant gratification, but it can be like long gratification with your fashion journey. And you can have a lot of fun with it. And then I think the other big thing for me is like we don't need new for sorry, there's like thunder and lightning. I don't know if you can hear that crazy weather in Asia right now. But you really don't need new for special occasions. So for my wedding, I just recently got married, I wore a pre loved wedding dress that I found secondhand and I got it for half price. And it had only been one for a few hours. And it was absolutely amazing. And for my hands event, I had a top that I've had for about six years. And I paired it with a secondhand skirt that I got like a Dolce Gabbana skirt, I got like $70 I've always wanted a teacher and I finally found one and I was so heavy. And it was 70 bucks, you know, and I got to wear like, you know, have a great fashion story, which I get excited about. And I didn't need to find new stuff. But I still had a new outfit that I was excited about, like new for me. But it wasn't new new. And I just think like kind of normalising those conversations and realising that like it's it's an adventure and it can be really fun. And you can really treasure the stuff that's in your wardrobe as opposed to just looking at everything and be like, Oh my god, I have nothing to wear and like all the you know, the typical things that run through our heads. And I think if you know finding the part that what you care about because it is very overwhelming. There's so many facets to this and it's so integrated. So what is the part that maybe upsets you the most or the part that excites you the most to improve and just kind of focus there I mean, it doesn't need to be doom and gloom, it can be joyful it can be Fun and an experience and a learning journey. And I think we need to kind of approach things with a different mindset to, you know, get away from this fear mongering and all the negative and heavy stuff. Of course, we need to know what's happening. But then where can you focus your attention and your part of your fashion evolution, that's going to actually bring joy into your life. And I think fashion and clothes does bring a lot of joy to a lot of people, and you can continue that it doesn't, it's not a sacrifice, to make different choices. So I love that. And all three of you are really awesome on social media at sharing this stuff, I love the way you, you tell your stories about your clothes, and I saw your wedding ones. And the one thing I would add is really talk about it, talk about it on social media, what you're doing, what you're changing in any, any thoughts that you're having, like, you know, one of the best things that we can be doing is sharing our journeys of change and evolution, because that will inspire other people, but also directly person to person in your communities, you know, talk to the people around you, like, you know, there's a lot of swap shops here. And, you know, I want to set up a new Swap Shop called boobs and butts. Because, you know, because it's a different there's, there's another type of woman that's not usually included in the swap shops, you know, from a science perspective, and, you know, get your community together and have lots of different layers to it. And you'd like you said, have fun with it. You know, it's not dark, it's a, it can be a beautiful thing. All right, quick one, resources. The one thing people always say I talked to everyone everywhere about the climate, every chance I get if they want to. I try not to depress people, which has been a bit harder this year. But you know, websites, associations, podcasts, books, where, you know, there's one, there's one place where you can go and find businesses that have no slavery in the supply chain. And I can't remember what it is, if you guys know which one it is. Anyone? I'll find it if not, but what would you guys recommend? There's a new podcast by ABC called threads. It's very similar to a lot of the other podcasts are put out like the pineapple project in a way that it's palatable, entertaining information. You don't have to put time aside to listen to it, you can listen to a podcast anywhere. And it's informative, and well researched, and lots of resolutions there any inflammation? Yep. Awesome, isn't it? I would recommend that anyone follow Fashion Revolution. There are big nonprofit headquartered in the UK, that talk a lot about, you know, sustainable fashion, or the fashion industry's impact on both people planet, and increasingly animals. I think that that's a great resource for anyone who's, you know, a beginner, just learning about this space or wants to follow along with the latest updates. Also, organisations like remake, I think are excellent. To follow. We at zero and post a lot of content, trying to do a lot more recently been posting a lot of content about this and articles on our website. As Steph green is New Black, they have an amazing site and lots of great content. And we also have a podcast, which we've recently started called made better, which you can find on anywhere you listen to your podcasts and, and that's largely talking to, you know, lots of different people in the industry slash, you know, authors, brand owners, producers, just about ways that we can create and consume more consciously. So whether you're a consumer, whether you're a brand owner, whoever you are, there's something to take away from those conversations and learnings and insights, which might inspire you to think a bit more deeply. And make it natural to think more deeply. I think that's what we all want to move towards is like making this thinking part, not an effort, not a sacrifice, it's just becomes part and parcel of the way you operate in the world. And yeah, those are good conversations to dip into as well. Yep. All right. And I agree with you green as new black. It's a big education resource for me, Steph, what else? I think depending how you like to consume stuff is there's something for everyone. If you're an Apps person, then you should definitely download Good on you. Or there's another one in the browser that I've just blanked on the name that actually looks at all the websites and suggests better brands if they're not like a sustainable brand, and I'll find it and send it to Andrea but for me, like those are just fantastic. Like for apps and browsers. And it literally means as you're you're on the internet, you know, looking at Brands, it gives you the information that you need and suggest better brands. So I think those kinds of things make it way easier. I think if you like documentaries, definitely watch slay that I mentioned and the true cost, which I think is still available on Netflix, that's eye opening. It's old, but it's all about the Rana factory collapse and the the birth of Fashion Revolution as well. So that's a really great resource. And then one of my favourite Instagram accounts is the sustainable fashion forum. They do an amazing job, really funny memes, but like, you know, beautiful content, and they're getting way more in depth into sort of, like all the issues with the fashion industry. And I just think they do a really great job on that. So there's lots of amazing influences and Instagram accounts as publications that you can follow. There's apps, there's browser apps, you know, there's a lot of ways that you can make it easier on yourself, depending on how you like to consume or engage in this topic. And it's Ellen MacArthur is the the Ellen MacArthur Foundation is where you can go and really learn about the circular economy to write. Ellen MacArthur got it, right. Yeah, I've always found that a really good one from an education perspective, just understanding it. Alright, I'll put these all in a blog and share it with everyone and try and get the links to it if you've got anything else that you want to send to me. And like, Alia, thank you. So the book is locked, closed last how the joy of rewiring, repairing your clothes can be a revolutionary act. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. All right, ladies, thank you so so much. I really appreciate you being here and sharing your wonderful brains with us and passion. We're going to be back on the fourth for the next climate courage and I'm going to have Dr. David Koh and Richard BUSA lotto who wrote the book The unsustainable truth, which I find a really, really fascinating book, the investment bankers and they've been in the industry for more than 30 years, and I'm going to ask them about money. And you know, how do we prepare? What should we be spending on where should we be investing more money will currencies that we were used to today even be a thing in the future? Because I hear a lot of people talking about finances, but they talk about it within the context of the world that we had. How do we get prepared for the world that is coming in the world that will be what is what does that look like? So, Steph, Susannah, Jen, and the lovely Ray, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. And please follow these guys. They're all awesome on social media and they're all doing amazing work. So take care, you guys. Thank you, guys. Bye