Even gratitude advocates struggle sometimes…

Bavani Periasamy is a gratitude advocate (among many other things) and she told me recently she’s been struggling, as others don’t believe she has the right to talk about negative feelings, because, well… she’s a gratitude advocate. 

We HAD to have a talk about that, because we all know the right to feel how you’re feeling (especially negative emotions) is the pathway out the other side. So yes, it’s always important to honor our feelings, we just don’t want to get stuck there. We also know - after the last couple of years - TIMES have been tough for EVERYONE, so suppressing negative emotions will not help any of us at all. 

Of course, we didn’t just talk about that – impossible with Bavani. We discussed where her gratitude journey started, the transformative experience of having a boss from hell to a great boss and how that changed everything! Equally, the importance of gratitude, of giving to others, and why we all need external help sometimes. 

One of the bigger challenges identified, which isn’t just a cultural reality, is finding the right people to speak with and to be heard when you need to be heard, versus people constantly interrupting with solutions, which is not what we need sometimes. 

We also discussed culture and the right to speak up, as well as showing up as your most authentic self. Definitely a far-reaching conversation and for all the people who don’t think they can speak up, please take courage from Bavani’s words. She’s ready to put it all out there into the world and for that, I salute her. 

You can follow Bavani Here

Website https://bavaniperiasamy.com/ 

On LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/bavaniperiasamy/

To get in touch with me, here I am

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Transcript

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Hello, my lovelies. It's Andrea Edwards. Welcome to Uncommon courage Today we are speaking to Bhavani. And I'm going to ask her how to pronounce her surname because I know I'm gonna get it wrong. But Annie is an amazing lady. She's a gratitude advocate, a speaker and a coach. And she works with leaders to build an appreciative work culture to improve productivity. And that sounds like some very fun work to be doing in the world. But today we're going to talk about gratitude because one of Bernie's struggles is, is it even appropriate to talk about gratitude right now when there's so much that's going on in the world? That's not so great for so many. He she is Bhavani berry asked me, Did I get it right? That's one of the hardest names I've had to pronounce for a while because you're just Pavani to me, darling. Oh, yes, Monique is fine. But you were telling me that the family name isn't actually a family name and your culture? Yes. So that's actually my dad's name. So my name is just Bhawani. And parasomnias. My dad actually, so if you were to call me Miss Paris, ami, which occasionally happens, I wouldn't respond, because that's not part of my name. Right. Especially in airports, not in Malaysia, but other airports. I've been addressed as Miss Paris summit, and I just sort of like, look around. Are they looking for my mom was something that's so funny. Yeah, I, you know, I've, I've known a lot about different cultures for you know, I've been building up my knowledge for a long time, but I didn't know that. But yeah, so we decided to have a chat, because your focus is gratitude. And that's what you work with your clients on. And it's such an important subject. But I know that you're, you're struggling with talking about it at the moment, because so many people are suffering, would you be happy to just give people a lowdown of the fabulous lady that you are and what you do and what you care about? Oh, okay. Sure. And yeah, that's all thank you for having me over here and allowing me giving me the space to speak. So why I chose gratitude is because the subject residue itself changed my own life, I had a very toxic working relationship. So if I were to put it bluntly, I've worked in hell. I've also worked in heaven, because my last employment was with this terrific organisation, almost, I was everyday waiting for the shoe to drop, because people were just so nice. bosses were very appreciative. And you're like, Are they for real? So I experienced both spectrum, one where you are totally not appreciated, you are wrong for everything that you do. And you know, you work really long hours, and you're just like, is this all to life. And then I've also had the other spectrum where your bosses are just so amazing, you will find it unbelievable, but that gave me or that changed my life. And my life took a turn or not, I think I would be still doing some admin work somewhere nine to five, literally, maybe not going back at five, but maybe seven or eight or 9pm. But having worked in that very happy environment gives me a new perspective in life. And that's really thanks to my former bosses, who are now amazing friends, you may know them Jonathan Lau and Raymond Poon. So that's when I started speaking more about gratitude, making sure that I did the same what my bosses were doing for me, you know, appreciating people, making sure I never left someone without telling them how much I appreciate them. So that took a turn. And it sort of got into like, a hobby or a passion. And, of course, being in the Speaker's environment when I was struggling to find what should I speak on and a couple of years ago, it's all about STEM, you know, women in science and technology and maths. And then in the digital world, creativity, innovation. And here I was with a topic called gratitude. I had a chat with two people. And one of another good mentor just sat down with me for I think about three to four hours. And he asked me, Do you really think you can speak about something else? Especially as you are speaking about gratitude? And I was like, I don't think I can. Because this this is really very close to my heart because I went through the experiences and I know how life changed when I embraced it. So then I decided yeah, to it's got to be gratitude. And the world has changed so much. We sometimes and I'm generalising and I say this, Andrea, we sometimes forget to take things for granted. We forget to say thank you to people, we take for granted, you know, friends, family, they're always there. We forget to save how much we appreciate them. So yeah, I just said in what I'm just gonna go around reminding people that gratitude is important. appreciation is a foreign, it's full. It plays a big part in happiness. Absolutely. I kind of feel that it's lacking right now. People are just so bogged down. And it's like, how do I even get to happiness? So yeah, that's that's how this whole journey of very started for me. And I'm all out to just remind people to be free. Remember your thank you. So remember your blessing. Oh, I love that I didn't know your story. So it's really nice to hear it. And for anyone that's stuck in a job where they're just miserable the jobs from hell, that awareness that that isn't normal. That's not a place to stay. If you're unhappy leave, you know, I always say if you've got a bad boss, if you're still there a year later, then you're a fool. Cuz I can do but you know, when it's your first job after you grade, of course, when everyone tells you that, pardon? My language, for the lack of better word is the same shit everywhere. So I'm thinking that this is what working life is. So until I experienced something else, I literally thought that's what working life is. Yeah, I think I think a lot of people get stuck in that, that that's it. But I think the important message is it's not it. And those horrible jobs are extreme. They're not common, I hope. Right? Okay, so you're you're based in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia. And obviously, the last couple of years, have been tough in Malaysia, as well as everywhere else. But just just be interesting for people to know what's it been like, from your perspective, these last couple of years? What have you been witnessing? What's been going on in Malaysia? Here's the thing, Andrea, I've been seeing to spectrum of things that's happening. So some people really got lucky this time during COVID is where they really prospered. They flourished, they did amazingly well, and I'm so happy for them. I'm glad that something good was happening for them. But at the same time, I also saw a larger part of let's see, the people around me whether it's friends, people in my LinkedIn connections, community that I'm working with policy says some part of segments of the country was a total opposite way of living than they were before, because a lot of them lost their jobs, those who are in business lost income. So the one of the first things I did Andrea was this to say, if anyone needs to speak, I'm opening up coaching sessions for free, even if it's just to speak, I'm willing to listen. And this is something that one good friend of mine said, because he was working in in an airline, very good salary. After many years, they had a child. So the wife became a homemaker. You know, obviously, a long time you had a child, you want to spend more time baby's been tempered. And it was during COVID when he lost his job. He said, it's one thing to me, because everyone is telling me to ration. You know, plan carefully. How do you do your budget? And he asked me this one question that made me go into tears. How do I ration my baby's milk, powder, ration everything else, but I can't ration my baby's milk powder. And that hit me. That was the reality people were suffering in a way that, you know, even milk powder is like, how do I budget the milk powder so that it last, it can last as much as it can love before I need to go in, make sure I have enough cash to buy the next thing of milk, the whole baby formula thing for me this in this pandemic, and most people don't get it. So here's a person who's had a good career. They've lost their job. And they're struggling. And then you look all around the developing world of the garment factory workers last just dumped. You know, I saw right across Thailand, the mothers were begging us to raise money to get milk powder for them. And we just thought there was so many people in need. And milk powder was so expensive. I was begging them to spread the word in their community that if any woman gives birth, she breastfeed her baby. Because it's an impossible thing, right? I've written a whole blog on just the whole baby formula. Marketing historically is outrageous. But what the women were doing was they were feeding the babies, the water from boiled rice, which means it contains really high levels of arsenic. And this was happening all over the world. And we saw recently in the US, this is big shortage of formula and everyone's paying attention to that. And yet millions and millions of mothers and families right across the developing world were just left stranded, they couldn't afford it. You know, the incomes went from, you know, in Thailand, it was 40,000 baht a month, on average down to 2000 baht a month, which is about $80. And there's huge, huge drops in income. The last thing they can do is a full formula. And then people go, Oh, well, they should breastfeed their babies. And it's like, well, first of all, if you've already had the baby and you're not breastfeeding, for whatever reason, usually it's because you need formula so you can work on an income or you can't breastfeed one or the other. Right. But it's a huge part of the story that's just been ignored by the global me Yeah, and it frustrates the hell out of me. You know? Because yeah, how can you rush in that? First year of life? Right? The most important year of life? Yeah. And how do you tell a parent, you need to ration how you do things, because you know, from having a large income or having a decent income, you are now stranded with no income, because it was pandemic to get another job to substitute that was not an easy thing as well, he was a challenge altogether. So that that was my struggle. Part of my struggles, was how do I console How do I help? Yes, he just wanted to speak. But this is the impossible thing to meet, championing gratitude, trying to remind people, when a father is telling me how do I ration milk? How do I find milk for my son? How do I even come and say, hey, look, you got to be grateful that you're still alive. Babies still alive. This this kick in me, trying to figure this part out. That was my biggest struggle, and it still is maintaining advocate and remind people, but yet I'm struggling, because of what's happening. You know, I put a lot of effort in at the beginning of my book uncommon courage to talk about who the book was for, and who the book was it for. And I, I needed to do that, because it's the same struggle that you're talking about, when I talk about getting strong and finding contentment and peace within that is not a book for a person about to get on a boat to cross the oceans to go to another country, hoping to claim asylum, because that's the last thing that's on their mind. Right. And, but I do think the people who are in a position where they have a good life, they've got a roof over their head, they've got enough to eat, Yes, everything's a bit more expensive. Now, anyone who's middle class or above who still has irregular income, may have more expenses. But as long as they're sort of type of lifestyle that they used to, doesn't have to change too dramatically. I think that message of gratitude works for them. But for someone who's just, you know, going to the supermarket with, you know, 20, ringgit or $10. And that's it to feed their family for a week, you know, in the back of pasture or the bag of rice is worth 50%, more than it was the week before. That's impossible, right? So I suppose it's maybe it's more about if we can help the people who should be grateful for the life that they have any help to help them get strong, and be kind and be self aware and pay attention to the struggles, the real struggles of people around and and support those people through these challenging times? Yes, yeah. Also, when I'm chatting with them, the struggle is not as bad because you know, the state of affairs with them. And just to let you know, I speak about this circle of gratitude, where I encourage generosity and validation as part of you, you can't just receive all the time, because part of gratitude is you do your part to give, you need to validate others, you need to do things for others, because you can't just be on the receiving end all the time. But the struggle is like you say, when it's the party was really, really suffering. And then that's just sort of about sharing the gratitude message. It's about sharing the love and the care and the support and doing what you can to help, right. Yep. But it needs the people who don't struggle to be paying attention to it rather than focusing on themselves. And being all this glory more that I'm thankful. I'm thankful. I'm thankful. Yeah. But forgetting that, as much as we are thankful, and less, probably nothing wrong with that, this, the world always needs a balance, you can't just be safe all the time. The idea is that you need to do your part to give because when you when when one gifts, another receives and spent the majority of your energy on it. Right. So I think you've talked about your struggles with gratitude now, right? Pretty much this is the struggle to show that I'm strong, when I'm not. Sometimes people have this perception that my life is all glory and a bed of roses. But to tell them that again, pardon my language shit happens to me too. My car breaks down too. I get expensive, unexpected expenses too. So it's not that being a gratitude advocate means that my life is all roses in in glory. It's about choosing the mindset that you have, right? But I'm thankful that I actually have this knowledge, the wisdom, the maturity to know that, yes, no matter what happens, no matter what outcomes come to me, I know I have gratitude to hold on to you recover, to move on to get back up. That's what makes the difference. Being a gratitude advocate. My Library is like Superwoman, or Superman. There's a tool that I have to help myself up and vulnerable as well to do everything that is happening to everyone. And I think that's one of the key things that people don't understand. It's actually harder to be it's a generous state of mind. It's harder to be in there. At then to be in a negative state of mind, or even a victim state of mind. That's easy. It's the other one. And I think people miss that, like you can turn up every time you show up in a room, you light up the room. That's the sort of character that you've got. Right? And there'll be presumptions in that, from people around you that aren't necessarily true. Do you hear that a lot, very much. And the truth is this, Andrea, I break down as well. And there are times that sometimes things are so bad that I need external help as well, I need to call up my friends or my mentor and say, hey, look, I'm, I'm going on the snowball effect, where it's just just down in in in misery. I need help. And thank God, I have great friends who just talk to me, tell me what's bothering you. And they just listen. I'm thankful I've got friends who do that. They just listen. And then once they know or get the sense that okay, I sort of have left or let let go everything, then they remind me remember your gratitude message? Would it be helpful for you to know, look at what's, what could be the blessings that's happening and all that. So that's the thing, just because I'm not I'm emigrated to educate, that doesn't mean that I don't need external help i to credibly meet them. I think, you know, the cheerleaders in our lives are important people, but they also carry the the added burden of like, you know, I've many, many times from a young age, when I've been struggling with something in my life, I've gone out to my friends for help. And they were very, very uncomfortable with me needing it because of who I was to them. And that was a really young, I learned that lesson really, really young. And then I learned how to sort of work out who were the people that I could speak to. But I suppose that's another point that if there is a person in your life out there, who is that person for you, don't forget that you also need to check in on them from time to time because I think in the last couple of years, every single one of us has gone through hell, in a different way. Right. And I think this is where it's totally okay, no matter what we do, who we are, what we are in the society, it's totally okay to be vulnerable, and to show up as we are and not put a mask on and said, Okay, I'm so and so I'm up here and nothing defeats me, I think, one thing that we need to remember, or it's okay to be human, and not to be a hero, at all times, and I had that struggle initially, especially because that was precedent because it's an association. I felt like there was this big pressure on me, I can show that I'm struggling in having difficulties. But then thank God because of chats with people. They gave me permission and said, You know what, you can't do this by yourself. If you're struggling like this, we give you permission, give yourself permission to be vulnerable, open up, speak to people, because else you've got too much bottled in you in that verse, that's going to be worse on you. But from a cultural perspective in Malaysia, is that a quality that isn't normal for people to go out there be vulnerable and talk about what's going on? Or is it more it's a private thing that you keep within your families? Or are you just keep to yourself? What's the cultural aspect of that? Let me speak about maybe the culture that I'm from being being an Indian, I FSC, etc. I don't come from a traditional culture. Neither my from a very open to modern type of a culture. But this just share some observations I've seen, people tend to tell us things like this Oh, and I've had this comments made to me, or you're a speaker, you go motivate others, if you yourself are like this, and how can you motivate others? And that that is a struggle on its own? Because no, I've got expectation put on me that, oh, I've got to be strong. I put this is Bhawani with these people, and I can afford to be upset or feel down. So this comments come to me and I'm not sure in what capacity people say that oh, what intention they say that? Maybe it's their way of thinking that they are trying to boost me up. But that definitely doesn't boost me up. If it makes me even feel worse. And maybe at least I got away with a lot of things because I'm a girl. You know, a female is a lot to maybe cry and be moody and emotional, and will be cold old men. How could you be crying, upset or becoming so emotional, like women via men, at the beginning of the pandemic, the CEO of Marriott broke down in tears on TV as he was giving a speech about the fact that they had to layoff a whole bunch of people and he was very, very emotional about it. So I think that the whole idea of vulnerability and being emotional and speaking from your heart is is definitely coming into into the normal sort of sphere of business. Isn't it needs to, and we're seeing it on LinkedIn, we're seeing it on professional platforms. At some point, a lot of people don't like it, you know, they like shouldn't be here, it should be on Facebook, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, wait a minute, we're we're entering a new phase here. And I think we need to be paying attention to that phase. You know, the Gen Zed, and millennials take make up the biggest audience of LinkedIn now. And they're bringing their personality with it, which is different to, you know, a person in their 40s 50s 60s. But you know, Gen X and Boomers, which I'm a Gen X, not a boomer. But yeah, so the, the whole being brought up, and everything's sort of behind, it's all crafted, right? I would say, you know, protecting yourselves behind PR walls. And to me, those days have been long gone. We haven't necessarily noticed it. But then you've got the cultural layer. And I don't think everyone quite understands the Malaysian culture, because there's, there's three distinct cultures within Malaysia. Right? As much as what you said, Andrea, about you, people coming forward, people are being more open. LinkedIn is bringing about changes. But bear in mind, the the people in the society right now have pretty much like what you say, you know, the baby boomers with the older generation where they're not exposed to these things, and they're holding on strong to those beliefs, those expectations that pretend to pass it on to the next generation. Yeah, that that shift that is struggling to happen. People are trying to come out of it, but yet being held back by the statements and expectations put on them. And especially when it comes to Eagle, Eagle, ego plays another role in this, it's like, oh, you come from a family of so and so. And so how could you be like this, look at everyone else who's ready to come into your uncle or your other male relatives, or even any other relatives? Why are you like this. So in that cultural society, expectation, that's a huge burden to carry, because you've got to be someone else, and you can't be your authentic self, because that's the expectation expected out of you. So then what happens, and this is where I see recite a lot of social issues, a lot of depression, failure in marriages, because there's just too much emotion. So egos versus bottled up, please let it out. There's no platform for open communication, open discussions. And people tend to think that you're helping whenever you try to attempt to speak up what you're feeling, no. And people jump into this bandwagon. Oh, someone is telling me something. So I got to solve their problem, we fail to realise that someone just needs to speak or they need to speak the trust that we need to speak, to just listen, I don't need you to solve my problem. I just need to be able to express what I'm feeling. But then society, you know, we agents, we tend to be very nice, we want to help everyone and trying to solve every other family problem, we jump into a solution. So I think you should do this. So I think you should do that. I believe this is what you should be doing, you shouldn't be doing that. That creates a whole lot of problems. And that's when people shy away from comparing, because when I speak to you are either being touched, or someone else is solving my problems, and that's not what I need. I just need a space that I can trust and speak and share. Culturally, this is just another topic on its own, where all the things are happening. Yeah, it's such an important one, they've really feels like we've got a war of the generations going on at the moment. You know, the, because the boomer generation is so huge, and still so dominant. And you know, Gen X, completely, almost irrelevant, were the ones in the middle, but then they've got the millennials and Gen Z, you know, being in Asia for more than 20 years. Now I see the pressure that you experience within the families with which whichever culture you come from, it's intense, you know, coming from a country like Australia and my family, it's non existent, or you just left it, you know, like young young Australians, so they, they just leave the family move, you can move to another town in Australia and be and be a flight away, right. It's such a big country. But there's, that's a lot of pressure. And like I was, I was saying to my husband, I want to talk to you, but I don't want you to solve it. I just want you to listen, you know, because men want to solve everything. And sometimes you just need to talk. So I suppose the message to everyone is, if you've got this pressure on you, and people just constantly talking and trying to solve your problems, and they're not listening to you or telling you you don't have the right to feel the way you feel, then you need to go and find a place where you can find the people that will give you that space, right? And it may not necessarily be the one closest to you, or the people that you trust, very professional help, right? A coach or someone that somebody like that the right to be feeling the way you're feeling is to me such a message for this time. It's one of the messages I've been talking about for the last couple of years. Like I've watched people suffer so much, you know, physically hunger, kicked out of the homes, all that sort of stuff. And then people who've still got everything. They're still suffering just in a different way and they need to feel that suffering is valid, rather than you don't have a right to suffer that. I mean, just recalling the conversations that we've had in terms of cultural differences, right? I'm very blessed. Right? My parents are just so blessed with the parents that I have. They've been always supportive, always encouraging me, the culture of the society, I can't change. But I'm very blessed with my parents. It saddens me because I can't say these things to the rest of my community. Because I'll be, I'll be, first of all, because I'm a female. I'm an Indian female, and I've got no right to go and tell people that it's okay to be not okay. And, and that's another thing that I'm struggling with Andrea, it's like I have this capacity to be able to help. Yeah, but yet, find out because it's like, Who are you to come and tell, you know, people that it's okay to be this way, you are now making them appear making people feel who it's okay for men to cry? And who are you to come and say this thing and endure this this a little bit off topic, the work that I do is, is that I'm like the black sheep of the Academy of Science, because I don't have a proper career would worse because who am I to come and tell all these educated people in high profession, and it's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to be authentic. Because I don't have a proper career. You see, I'm not an engineer or lawyer or doctor or accounting whatsoever, especially. So I'm one of the black sheep family. I choose to think I know more than them. And I have the skills and the knowledge to be able to do more intel. Yeah, my hands are tight. And I know they're struggling. Yeah. You know, that's, that's a massive cultural change you're talking about right now. Right. And, you know, a lot of the people who have been brought up in that generation with success is being a doctor or lawyer, teacher, or, you know, an accountant, as you said, but their children have an aspiration to be a YouTube star. Right? So they're already I mean, just culturally, they'd kids are going to be a class, you're just, you're just a first mover. And I don't think people who didn't grow up in Asian communities quite understand the pressure of careers, you know, and when you go out and do something as crazy speaking and coaching, they How could that possibly make sense? Yeah. And it's like, You mean to say you don't have a proper job? Why don't you get a proper job so that you have an income, who they speak to you it's such a key on their face, like as if I'm living off their money in Texas, unlicensed because the hell out of me, the best thing you can ever do is be successful. So let's make sure the van is successful, because she's awesome. And she deserves to be how, you know, I've just to share with you in this is something that my cousin told me this, because I came out, I've been interviewed on media come out in newspaper, that sort of thing. And my cousin made the statement, he said, you know, among all of us who have this professional careers, you've made it beyond any of us, because it's really hard work to do that on your own. I'm so sad to say that our community will never accept and agree that you are successful, because in their eyes, you are not. You can appear in in media, you could be taking photos with dignitaries or whatsoever, because you don't have a professional career, you're still deemed as a failure. Because once my cousin told me that, then I realised, yes, it's perception. No, my sibling, my cousins know what I've achieved, recognising where we can't, we can try and educate the older generation or the community or the society, but they just don't get it and they will. I don't think they will get it. And I've come to a place where I say, You know what, it's okay. I do. It's okay. They don't recognise or understand. I do mean you do you? I suppose part of it that always concerns me is how many people didn't have the courage to step up and do what they wanted to do with their life because of that pressure? And, you know, all over the world, right? You know, there's people that just doing what we do the crazy stuff that we do, right? You think about it, how the hell did we ever get on this path? But I wouldn't, I wouldn't have it any other way. But I don't have that pressure that you've got, you know, you know, just the lack of acceptance, the lack of acknowledgement, the lack of praise, and you don't do those things to get that. That's not why you do what you do. But it's nice when you know, you've got your family behind you supporting you, right? Yeah, I spend my immediate family which is my parents, my my, my sister, my cousins, who understand but then there's also the extended family, that community that go and afford to have I read my dad tells me you know what you making your own money, you know what you're doing, you're making an impact. Don't bother what other people say because they're not feeding you, they're not crying for you if something goes wrong, if they are not doing those things for you, you should not think too much about what they think what they are, what their opinion is, have you shaking them off? Yeah. So when when they ask me stuff, I will just laugh it away smile or say something? Like, it's okay. If they say like, I always when I go for weddings and stuff or gatherings, they'll say, even got a job? Maybe you know, can I tell my son in law or my daughter to send your data across? Maybe they can help you get a job? If, if the day comes that I need to ask my parents for money, then I will send you my resume. Yeah. That way, because else I, my life will boil and I will just learn to cope that way and just let it go. Yeah, I think we no matter where you are, where you come from, what your family background is, there's something like that going on for all of us, right? So for me, it's just distance creating distance, so I could just get on and build the life I wanted without other people's opinions. I just, I just wanted to try. And you know, like, I was just I think I think I talked about it a few times in the book where people gave me advice when I was young. And it just didn't match what I thought so I did it anyway, I'm gonna say something that I've not said in public before this. But because we spoke about uncommon courage, I'm gonna say this, I've even had people tell me that, again, because I come from a very traditional cultural Indian society. I've even had people tell me this, just one drop off your chair, and you hear these people come up and tell me, you know, maybe if you get a proper job, then maybe someone will want to marry you. So I'm not married, because I didn't have a proper job. Or the community things by choice, or wait, what I tend to do, but yeah, it's because I don't have a nine to five job or have a job. I didn't meet my husband until I was 33. So the conversation for a long time before that was always very like what's going on there. Like, if I don't meet a person that can be by my side and travel through life with me and have the same level of courage that I've got, then I can't get married, I can't, I can't be with somebody if they can't be by my side with me on the journey, I just the community that I come from, don't understand that you're supposed to get married, we don't understand this whole concept about you finding the guy who understands you know, you're off as you should marry. And then you make it work tough or whatever, you get it make it. So yeah, this is again, cultural expectation that comes in. And these are all my struggles, while I tried to think about gratitude, and having all this in existence around me, gives me that inner friction and inner struggle, that it makes you stronger, you know, and you're, you're amazing. And there's a lot of women out there looking at you going, let's we're gonna listen to her because I actually think the women of the world need to come together. And we need to change the rules of the game. But it's not just the cultures that all the diverse cultures around the world, I was watching a documentary where women's rights in America were being fought. And one of the reasons it failed is because the black women were coming forward and talking about what they were suffering. And the white women were saying, we'll get to that let's fight this fight first, which were white women's issues. And actually what the black women were going through was so horrendous, that actually, if they had started there, they would have brought the black women with them. And the issues that the white women were talking about what have been easily solvable, but I find you know, Indian women and Chinese women, Filipino women, white women, wherever we come from, I think the women need to come together, united, I barely scrape the surface with what I'm going through. It's not gone to domestic violence, mental abuse, mental anguish, a whole lot of other things that women are suffering from, and women can't get away or get out of these issues because of cultural expectation. You're married, you stand by your husband, you are the divorce rates going up in your culture, for sure. I'm afraid to actually keep track of it. It just demoralising for me and takes me to another zone. But I feel that there is a need to help women to stand up because what happens is many I would say everyone but many are very dependent on men in terms of finance, not improving self in terms of learning and development, social skills, entrepreneurial skills. So they are left very vulnerable and very dependent. And in this fear, your child is going to grow up without a father you should think of your child and they allow themselves to be bullied receive, to endure everything because of again, society face that you're married. You should make it work We'll get you in. But what about the women itself? In the right state of mind in the right state of health? Are you of any use to your child or your kids? Or your baby? My bed? scraped the surface with my story? Yeah, no, no, I totally agree there was a story just recently, when in the 70s, when women I think, I don't know if it was America, or Australia, were given the right to have a credit card in their own name, and in their own right divorces Shut up by 25%. So as soon as women get financial independence, they make the decisions for themselves. And obviously, being able to have a career to keep a job after you get married, or after you have children, all those sorts of things really, really matter, you know, creating societies that empower women to be able to a woman who can stand her own two feet, these are much more, she's going to contribute so much more to society, and you know, all the all the examples of equality, it's better for everyone, it's better for men, you know, GDP goes up, everything goes up, companies make more money, the case is being made again and again and again, and still around the world. And, you know, in America, what we're seeing is a war against women going on in America at the moment, it's actually quite frightening. I'm at a loss, you know, here we are, at a point where we need everyone together, we need the female voice, absolutely in the centre of the climate fight. What's troubling and where I am able to accept it, this happens to women who did not manage to further educate themselves, or people who didn't even have the chance to learn. What's very scary is that the victims are actually among professionals, women, people who are women who are out there, up in the society holding big polls, but yet they are victims at home. That's scary, very scary, because these are the people that we want to come and say, Hey, we've got you. So for the for the younger women looking for role models, they don't actually have any, right. So they're the women who are out there achieving what they want, the younger women want to achieve, are still suffering in the home, the same as the women who have not been given the right to achieve their suffering in the home. So for the younger women, they must look at it and go, there's no path to happiness. It is a struggle. And this is something that I'm observing, at least in my culture, because I do get invited to work with Indian women help and come and give them this this experience like, Hey, open your own bank account, do something, sell something from home, you know, every 1020 ringgit, that you make, put it into your own account. To many women that's that on its own, it's a struggle. It's like, you need to get a whole lot of permission, and all sorts of things to just open a bank account to your name, and how do we even come about and talk about financial independence or financial literacy, we can't even get women to be able to open bank accounts to their name. So simple makes make stuff like that easier. Right. But I think the other the other side of the story is we need to address the crisis with men that's creating the problem in the first place. Because it is and it's, you know, there's a lot of very, very, very unhappy men out there in the world. And it's been so obvious in the last couple of years in the pandemic, domestic violence went through the roof. Why? Because men was scared. They were terrified. They didn't know if they could protect their families. They were vulnerable. They were out of control. I remember talking to my husband a few weeks into it, and he was just grumpy. And, you know, obviously no domestic violence in our relationship or anything like that, right? He was, but he was just grumpy. And I'm like, Alright, sit down what's going on? And he told me, he didn't know if we had enough cash in the house. He didn't feel the car with petrol before the lockdown began. He didn't know if we should have gotten a plane left the country and gone somewhere else. He didn't know what the situation was here. You know, he was he was out of control. And there was nothing he could do about it. Pretty much everyone lost control. Because when COVID lockdown, we lost control over a lot of things. The whole lives. Yeah, exactly. Right. And women were at the receiving end of a lot of that, obviously, some women were violent towards their husbands, but the vast majority is men towards women. You know, and I think we've got to start addressing that, you know, mental health in men. And it's an issue. It's a huge issue. We need to start opening doors and telling men look, it's totally okay, if you don't want to talk to us women talk to another man at least. And it's okay to cry. Yeah. And I think we need to start there with the younger generation. We don't tell boys. Oh, boys don't cry. I think that's that's one. That's something at least I'm trying to tell all my nephews, I try not to say that to them. Just Yes, I will tell them don't cry. But I don't say boys don't cry, because I think that's very unfair. pressure on them up at you. You won't be surprised I am. I'm raising my boys to be very empathetic and sensitive. They are naturally that way. And I'm encouraging those skills in them because I think it's, you know, when I go to the how they're doing at school type thing, the only thing like I'll get the results. How are they in class? Are they good citizens? Do they care about their fellow classmates? Are they a pleasure to teach? Are they nice to have around? That's my that's all I care about. out. Yeah, I think that those values, take a certificate to patient in them in a young age. So I know a lot of my friends are raising their boys that way. Because we need to, you know, and you know, when I talk about equality, I say it's good for everyone, men, men need to have more choices. You know, my husband, from the day he was born, was raised with the mindset that he would be a provider for family, whereas my boys aren't being raised with that mindset. And they see their parents both doing all sorts of stuff and working remotely and stuff. But we need to raise men with different ideas about, you know, what can be on the table, because life can be more joyful, we all should have the choice for kids. Absolutely. And the space, you know, and, and the permission, you know, within our cultures, that you can do whatever you want to do. It's almost unheard of, in an Indian community. If the man stays at home and the wife goes to work, almost unheard of. There will be there will be but I think it's a very small percentage of more of that happens. Yeah, for sure. So I was one of those very unusual people in the 1970s. My dad quit his job. And he was an artist. So he stayed at home. So he was considered a stay at home dad in those days, even though he was painting. And he used to be at the school all the time. So I was I was raised by the male not by the female in the 1970s. Can you imagine that? Yeah, in 2022 is not happening here. But I can't imagine that happening in 1970s. Yeah, that was it was radical, you know, and the impact on my sister and my brothers, you can see it, you know, having that male figure. Alright, so let's, let's wrap it up. I want you so now that we've discussed the right to talk about gratitude to the community that is in a fortunate position, because I think if we can get our minds, right, we can in our hearts, right? Obviously, we can help the people who need help, and a lot of people need help in every country on the planet right now. But we've got to be in our right mind, if we're, we're angry and selfish and me focused and screw the rest of them. We're not going to get anywhere. Yeah. So we need we need we need a revolution in people's mindsets. If we're going to get ready for the next chapter of human history. So give us your best three tips on being grateful. How do you recommend we do it? Okay, definitely start by saying that, you know, no matter how everything is not going, right, it's not going the way you want. But there are a lot of things that's actually happening the right way. We're not in hospital attached to a breathing machine. We're not in ICU, because I'm referring to this because of COVID. But there are a lot of things that's working, right. We've got our family, we've got our loved ones, we've got support. So when times are bad or down, just take a moment to just look at those things as going right. And pretend to for them. Yes, you're not going to immediately have a million drop on your on your lap. That will be marvellous, if that happens if the moment you start being grateful. That's not the reality. But to spend a few moments to just look at what's right, the family, whatever it is, that's right. And we can be so selfish, that it's all about us receiving at all times, yes, be grateful for your bank, appreciate people. But we've got a role we've, we've got to balance the equation. So we've got to play our part, which is to give. And there's two way of giving one is I hold on very strongly to this, leave a person in a better state than you met them. Even if it's saying I'm so glad I spoke to you today. Something you said change my mind or made an impact on me. Or thank you so much. You look tired, but I'm glad you made the time to speak to me means a lot. Anything. Appreciate human Nm. I have the saying Don't say thank you because it's SOP, don't say thank you because the SOP, standard operating procedure, rush, rush rush. I see this happening. You know, when you give a child something the parents then nudge them What do you see? What do you see? And then the child says Thank you, Auntie Thank you, uncle. But we're not teaching them to say it because they're appreciating because they gained something from us. It becomes an expectation Oh, someone gave you something. So what must you say thank you, but we are not teaching them or telling them why the thank you is important. So that's two things when when we show appreciation, take a moment to just expand and see why because it means a lot to the receiver. And you will never know how the day changes. When the receiver gets that message. Never in a million years figured out a simple things. Just change the person's day move anything and the second thing is beyond the words these are beyond the saying it you can do something by a person a cup of coffee before lunch, recommend them, buy from them anything small act of kindness because we are thankful when someone buys us coffee right? There's someone buying us coffees purse, we tend to so we got to do our part to ensure we continue through the cycle of paying someone a coffee, if someone is struggling with 50 cents in front of you just pass on a 50 cents to them, we got to keep continuing the cycle. We can't stop and just see we are receiving. I'm thankful for everything. But you got to keep a lease on what you are doing for others as well. We got to keep the cycle going. We have to I'm being very strong and daringly upfront here saying we got to do things for other people, the smallest thing, the biggest thing, because every little thing matters, we never know. So that's, that's the second part, which is saying and doing things. And I think the third thing is, it may not be so much about gratitude. But I think being able to validate and listen to someone with no bias, no judgement, this being present, and just honouring someone's feelings, I think will do wonders for people right now. Because people don't want problems solved. They just want to be able to express bent in this, stop telling people be positive. It's such a cliche, yes. That's what we want people, that's an ideal environment. When people are just struggling, anything written down, and you go and tell them, you know, you've got to be positive on how things are going at. It just gets people even worked up and more upset, because now they're going to beat themselves up. Why can I be positive? Give people the space to be overly judgmental, because we can never feel what the type of pain they're going through. If we can be present for people and just ask them. Do you feel better? Do you need any other help for me? I think it's okay to ask people. Yes, I'm here for you. Please share what you want. And you can always clarify, do you feel better? Is there anything else I can do for you? Because then you know, whether they need you to solve a problem or not? Yeah, that's, I think, three things I would like to see, to mankind to humans to know. I mean, all three were brilliant. But that last one, I think the positive psychology Movement has done so much damage, because what they're saying to people is, it's not okay, to honour your emotions just be positive. Well, no, I can't be right now. Because I'm completely concerned about the escalating climate crisis and how it's going to impact the world. You know, so how can I be happy, you know, like, I need to feel these feelings. And the most important thing for me is don't get stuck in the negative feelings. Find your path out, you know, and that's the most important thing, but yeah, absolutely brilliant. It's okay to immerse and do whatever you need to do. Because if you deny the fact, or you deny yourself to experience enables, immerse yourself with those emotions, then you're doing more damage to your body. But if you allow it, and then say, Okay, I need to move on, then you take the next steps that you need to do to move on, and you grow in the process, too. Right? Right. Yeah. So it's like, we're scared of feeling these feelings. And the reality is, we need to face our feelings, work out what they mean, what our interpretation is, so that we can come out at the other end, right? It's to me, it's if you don't do it, you're not you can't grow. Yes. So what I'm saying is, don't quote me by saying, Be grateful to people who are in pain. That's not what I mean, when I say, I'm advocating get it. But be human. Just listen, you can remind other people, you can remind people, but not when they are gone down and beaten down and you go and say Be positive, be grateful. Or Trust me, I feel like working because when people tell me to advocate, you should be grateful. Like what so I'm not entitled to my feelings? Yeah, we've got to get a little bit more sensitive and self aware, I think. Yeah. And also, you know, a lot of people aren't really very conscious of the impact that they have on other people. There's a lot of unthinking statements being made, you know, and, and people are very vulnerable right now. Like, everywhere, there's, you know, people are really struggling with mental health crisis globally. And I one person at a time. Yeah, you can do so maybe. Yeah, yeah. So let's just all be kind to each other and be open and listening and these expectation that you don't have the right to feel this way, because of whatever the other person thinks of your life, then we've got to get rid of those sorts of ideas to the most successful people are still going through unique experiences that they may or may need to share and talk about. They've got a right to feeling that too, regardless of what you think of their life. They're the ones actually living their life, right? Yes, my darling. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I just feel so glad I could speak this thing. So because this has really been a tiring journey, because I've been told that I should be grateful all the time because I'm a gratitude advocate. They tell you the pain of hearing that if this so Oh, yeah. I'm not a superhero. I'm not wearing a keep flying around saving the world. I am entitled to my own machines. So thanks for giving me the space to speak about that. Yeah, and I hope your community listens and takes it on board because I'm part of your professional community. And yes, to your family and friends and community. She's an amazing woman who inspires everyone, everyone that she reaches, and we all love her and adore her and respect her. And even even though you don't necessarily understand what she does, and why she does and why it's important, we all see it. And we all admire it and and value her so I that's that's this particular message to them. And you know, I don't think anyone's coming at it at this from about they're not trying to do you harm. They just don't necessarily it's about expanding mindsets, right. And you know, that's difficult for some people and the older people get the more they're sort of mind sort of sort of becomes a little bit more fixed and fixed mindset so we all know they're not good things right? Yeah. The big love to your mom and dad and your sister it sounds like they were awesome. Oh yes, they are the best I wouldn't be where I am without them. Yeah, that cool family supports everything Oh yes. All right. So many reason that when friends that I have well my darling I am very grateful to have you in my life so thank you for doing this much. Thank you thank you let's let's talk again soon all right, yes be everywhere to say all of this stuff that we should be everywhere. Common courage common sense.