The Know Show – theme, doubt and its role in sales

Welcome to the Know Show, this is our last show of the season and we’ll be back 2nd September, so if you’ve been meaning to check it out, now is your chance. Please join Andrea T Edwards and Joe Augustin (Tim Wade is wrapping up his holiday) with Joanne Flinn joining us this week as co-host! Not only that, she’s just published her latest book “Green Sight: The Sustainability Guide for Company Directors.” So we’ll definitely discuss that. 

We are also thrilled to welcome Yasmine Khater, executive coach and storytelling trainer as our special guest this week. The theme is: doubt and its role in sales. Is this something you can relate to? Is doubt impacting your ability to succeed? Yasmine is a powerhouse and she will help you identify and overcome. 

The Know Show is a Livestream held every Friday, where Andrea T Edwards, Tim Wade and Joe Augustin, and at least one special guest, review the news that’s getting everyone’s attention, as well as perhaps what requires our attention. We’ll talk about what it means to us, the world and we hope to inspire great conversations on the news that matters to all of us. 

The Know Show is based on Andrea T Edwards Weekend Reads, which are published every Saturday on andreatedwards.com, and covers the climate crisis, Covid 19, topical moments in the world, global politics, business, social issues and passion/humor/history. Join us. 

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To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Transcript

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in yours, yeah, it was me. I just Oh, hello. Oh, welcome to the no show. My name is Andrew Edwards. And my name is Joe Augustine and sitting in for Tim Wade is someone who is very special to the show, which is quite a good friend as well. It's Joanna Flynn. Hello. I've never known gorgeous to be here with the two of you today. That's awesome. And Anna has just published her latest book, we're gonna get centered green sites, which is the sustainability guide for company directors. And I got to pre read. I think it's a super important book to uncover to have a chat about your book. Oh, well, if it suits you guys, of course, I'd love to. It's like having any anyone who's ever had a book. It's like having a brand new baby. Except that doesn't wake you up at 2am. So it's done as advantages. But I wrote gravesite because I realized that there's tremendous pressure on organizations to understand what sustainability was about. But there was not a lot written for company directors, and the people legally responsible for businesses, there was not a lot that was in their language, there was not very much available that said, Okay, this is what it is, this is how it breaks down for you. This is what your responsibilities as a fiduciary and a company director are. And then what should your organization be doing so it actually provides a roadmap of action and direction for companies so that they can get this picture in their head and get on get into action, save you six months and a quarter of a million dollars with McKinsey's. You should start with you know, here's, here's a book that's gonna save you six months and a quarter of a million dollars. And people go like, wow, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get the recording of it done, and you're gorgeous for us and use that as my prequel. I feel under a lot of pressure right now, because I'm literally between two published authors, I'm gonna have to figure a way to put something out there into the world soon enough, but as if everyone gets on my case, enough. Welcome to you if you just joined us here on the nose Show, the show is the show about knowing a bit of more stuff. I think I've kind of settled it down to two, I've settled it down on the on the idea that, you know, hopefully you become a more interesting person, if not a more irritating one, or perhaps both who knows. The idea is to get a view a wider view of what's happening in the world. And as I've said, on the on my on my socials when I share it, we're trying to save the world audaciously one conversation at a time. As part of the way we do things, we also like to bring in extra points of view. So today, we have a very special guest will be joining us. And she is someone who comes from quite an interesting background. And as someone who's just watched a show, which features the country that She hails from, I'm actually quite interested to see whether there's the there's more to that connection. I speaking of very, very pet cryptically right now because I haven't had much sleep, but she is someone who helps people to communicate better in video and in sales, and she is Yasmine. I'm gonna bring it in now. And if you if you can do a better job than I just did, they just give us a quick update, who, who are you to the rest of the world. So I am just a very curious person who's obsessed with one part of our body, which is the brain. And I realized that the brain is very complicated to understand. And we should make it simpler, but actually use it on their favorite people to sell their ideas and make that they want to create in the world, because oftentimes, the difference between like someone who can make a massive difference is not because they know better things. But they're able to better communicate their ideas more effectively. So that's my mission to help people do that. And by the way, the the country in the show was talking about I'm watching moonlight on on Disney plus, and it features a lot of stories from Egypt. So tell us more about that about you where you come from. So I'm actually a childhood, the world's my parents, I Dad, Egyptian, my mom's Singaporean. And they met in all places, Saudi Arabia, as all great romances start in the middle of a desert. And, yeah, it was really interesting, because like, when they went Saturday at the time, like there was nothing there. It's just desert. And they both had like dreams for a better future and then ended up there. And, and I'm a byproduct of that. And I think part of the beauty of it is, I realized already growing up, how, although we were all communicating, there was so much miscommunication, just because of our cultural lens. And the way that we saw we were brought up and seeing that got me into this whole entire world, when my kids would be arguing. And I'm like, You guys are saying the same thing, but in his culture, he means this and in your culture, you mean this? And I was lucky to be in the middle to get both cultures. And to just realize that there's so much issues around that whole entire topic of beams understood. Yeah, nice. You must have been a very interesting teenager to both of them. I was actually more like a therapist to both of them. Because I think it's like the world today, we have so many more tools we have the internet like, and people like, you know, like Andrea created content on Boeing has given people access to much more information. But like, we have to realize, like back then there wasn't access to the internet. So people just didn't know. And I didn't, because I was just, you know, school just studying a bit more. I was like, This doesn't have to be this way. It can be easier, actually, to help my parents with that regard. Yeah, I think that's such a great example of how the experience can define your career, that just what you've what you've grown up with, like, you know, my family of six, right? They're very complicated, diverse group of people. And it helped me to because because my backgrounds communication as well, right, and it helped me to work out how to communicate to different types of people, because my family base was so different. So I can really resonate with that. And then you've got the whole cultural layer on top, which we turned to. Fascinating. Yeah, nice. And then, you know, back in those days, you know, three channels, four channels on the TV. And look at us today in the amount of access to information we've got. It's just like, it's such a crazy world that we're in right now. So just before this, actually, this, this podcast, I was walking with a friend, she's like, Yeah, like even big brands. It's all about how to be as direct to the customer as we can. And before we said rely on like, very expensive ads, that would be the communication that was one way we know better. And today, it's not today, it's a conversation. It's a dialog. And it's creating things. And I use the example of Johnny Depp. So Johnny Depp apparently, like obviously, his case with his wife happened. And there was only one brand that stuck with him one brand that was like holding his perfume. And because I brand stuck with him, their sales went up 50% As a consumer saying, Hey, we like to use it for something. And we want to support you, right? And I think that's really beautiful that we see the world is changing in that regard. That it's not only one way it's a whole dialogue of impressions and so forth. Yeah. And often often the people that communicate your brand value and even members of the company right? So the whole micro influencer growth, I get all sorts of weird people reaching out hey, would you like to be an influencer for us to sell dog? Dog fashion? No. Like what about my profile? tells you I would be remotely interested in dog fashion see the difference? Andrews you actually have a dog and I never get approached asking whether I'd help with dog fashion. Yeah. The fact that you have a dog. Well, that's true. Have you guys ever been approached? Well, I should have time because I've been approached to to represent one particular aspect or one particular segment and I thought well, I guess maybe I do represent eyebrow embroidery after the before and after shot. Well, I think what they were doing was they were captivated white by the before shot and I went like Okay, I think we can do something with this but it's not as uncommon as as, as I thought previously. Oh, what about what about you guys any weird offers? Not weird, but a lot of offers. I think the ones that I've been noticing a lot recently has been like this crypto spaces like do you want to make millions off of crypto and I was like, I don't know you and I clearly don't trust you. Not offers the offer to be an influencer on behalf of a brand. Oh no, no, I was offered to be an influencer for this space. But the one that I really liked more is I really like like the offers that like they give me essential oils, or they give me like diaries and booklets like that one I can take and I'm happy to use but the other side. I was like, if I haven't linked to what I care about, why are we talking about this? Yeah, I know you had some weird ones. Sadly, I clearly am not ranking on the social media influencer space enough to be on this show. Right? I mean, that's, I get asked to be on this show. And I get asked to speak at corporate events around sustainability and banking and finance and you know, but they're the different that's the conversation. They don't use. It's a generation thing. Maybe they don't approach it as a urine influence. Oh, you're a thought leader. Oh my go okay, fine, whatever. We're gonna read a lot and obviously the other three of us have to work harder on the thought leadership front than you guys get but you get the gist. But I think the point more is that there's different groups and different things that will appeal. appeal for one is not intrinsically infinitely better than the other to Yasmin's point is like who you're wanting to communicate with and what's going to be meaningful in their language? Yeah. Yeah, well, as I as I raise one on unkempt eyebrow, I like to introduce the show to everybody else. Here's what we do during the show. Well, that we're going to talk about the news that has been catching our attention. And of course, we're all welcome to, to give a few comments here and there. And then, of course, at the towards the end of the show, we're going to talk about the theme of the show. And the theme is always based around our guests. So I guess, is Yasmine and we're going to talk about sales. But not just sales, right? You were saying something about doubt, right? How are we going to how are you going to What does doubt? What role does doubt play in sales? I can't wait to get to that. So for now, though, it's the news. And to be to be fair, I mean, this is the last show that we're doing in this particular season, I just want to give the credit that's due to the person that's new, the credit, right. And that's Andrea, because this show is really Andrea's show, she she writes most of the stuff that that this show is based on she goes around, you know, she does the curation, she does all the work, but we the rest of it. I mean, I represent, I think, a certain level of presence or commitment to the show by being here. And I think, Tim not being here represented in a different way. You know, she does all the crazy, the crazy work that goes into this. So Andrea, this is really my hat's off to you. This is Andrea's work, all the news that she's picked up over the week. I think styles, I just think, you know, I just it's just important. This is really important that we're talking about some of this stuff and, and getting different views. And it's not about us having strong opinions on one perspective, it's about looking at the different angles of the news. And we need more of that in the world that would help solve a lot of problems. So let's kick into the news. And I just before I start Yasmin and Joanne, do not criticize this band, because we will then be trolled by the army. And we do know for this particular band, we think this band is actually an amazing influencer and a whole bunch of levels beyond what we're talking about. Um, so drum roll drum roll drum roll. We spoke about him a couple of weeks ago because they got into a bit of a spat with Tucker Carlson now. Lovely. The lovely gentleman over on Fox News, the btn, BTS, this Korean supergroup have announced a break to grow and pursues solo projects. And we were talking that they've got their fan bases called the army all caps. And if you go after them, you get the army on your on your back. And you don't want that. But basically, they're going through a rough patch. And they're all saying that they're trying to find their individual identities, and it's exhausting and a long process. And we can all definitely agree with that. An English translation of sorry, translation said it's a hiatus. And that's been disputed. But basically, I think just the young boys haven't had enough for a while and need a bit of a break. And let's see if they come back. But I'm sure many hearts are breaking around the world right now. These guys do an amazing job as far as, especially in the last few years, just addressing things like Asian hate, you know, they really stand up and speak up about it. They're very gentle if you ever watch them being interviewed. They're very sweet. And, you know, the Korean the whole Kpop sort of thing doesn't make any sense to me, but I have respect for it. So yeah, so that's a big piece of news for the for the army. I'm sure they're all in bed crying into into their blankets right now. Well, big, big army tears. I mean, I I was also very surprised when I when I heard this news like they this past year, they were the number 1x globally. And then I was additionally surprised to find out for the second year running. Yeah, they basically outsold everybody else in the world of pop music. And they did it two years in a row. And if you think about that, in terms of the size of that particular achievement, that kind of knocks off Michael Jackson from his one year, you know, reign with the Thriller album. I mean, if you talk about apples to apples and try to try to find some equivalents. It's just amazing to be number one for that long at least to be the biggest sellers. I mean, they beaten Adele, they've beaten Lady Gaga all the other names that you normally think about if you thought Who is number one in the world pop wise, and it's not any of them. It's BTS. Yeah. Me like personally, I got really inspired because it just shows you how the world is shifting. And for like when I grew up, you only bought like Western CDs and Western cassette tapes. And the fact that today you have So many Asian stars coming in shining, and others coming in shining coming in, like crushing it, like literally crushing it. Like to the fact that when I was back home in Egypt and Christmas, they're also big in Egypt. I was like, so confused that I had an ETF get to Egypt, like, but they are like their arts. Yeah, they've heard that the whole the whole revolution that's going on in music in the film industry. You know, there's there's a huge shift coming over to Asia and yeah, it's a it's a fascinating. It's just fascinating what's going on. And it's about time right? To get more voices in the world is good. Another big story that broke in the music scene this week, as well was Mick Jagger went down with COVID. And I think he's about 77. But I did some research. And apparently, it's, it's he's alright, he's feeling much better. So he'll be around and continue, because they're doing a series of concerts at the moment. And saying, but I don't think I'm gonna have a chance. Well, I mean, he's what he's 17 he's doing a 16 country, we're 16 performance tour with the band. So I look at BTS taking a break right now and going well, if you're seeing your potential career with the launch activity of of icons like Mick Jagger, you're going like, yeah, you probably want every now and again, to have a bit of a breakout period to regenerate your creativity, and sense of self and any great top performer has breaks. And as a band, I think it's more visible when you take a break was as an individual, if we say, you know, we're taking a couple of months, summer holidays, no one looks twice at it. But when you're a collective, there's more attention on it. But I think it's a sensible, smart, long term move for as a collective and as individuals to stay regenerated otherwise, after the decade they've put in, we pretty significant for them. And they may have been an amazing influence and all sorts of levels from a social level about so much of their songs being around respect and liking other people that they're not, they're not a violence based message. They're a connection based message. they've shifted elections just by the sheer volume of people that are willing to show up and sign up to that message. And I think that's just absolutely phenomenal. In there, so good room, use your power for good. So I've kind of gone you know, long rock, Mick Jagger and BTS, we have to see you doing your equivalent dance steps further on as well. But like, I think one of the things that I like also about them is the message is always simple. And I think people today we live in a time where we have to overcomplicate things. But the reason why they're so successful is because they've been able to like simplify it, regardless of language, or this country. You understand those things? And I think that's pretty powerful as well to realize within that as well. Yep. We've got to nice joining us here. He's just saying he totally agrees with you. Take a take a break and reinvent mean, apparently this but I mean, ABA has been back right. So you know, everything's possible. All right. Let's move on to Rebel Wilson. And this has been a really interesting story. So the first piece was apart profile picture of her on Instagram with her new girlfriend saying, I thought I was after Disney Princess seems I'm after a Disney princess. But then it's turned into a huge, huge media outrage because it's gossip journalist. And you have honoree, who is also happens to be gay, basically gave her 27 hours to respond before publishing. So he basically technically forced her to come out and say that she was with a with a woman. And the media and in Australia and around the world is basically just outraged and saying it's okay, this is not right. You know, and then, of course, people working in in the, you know, what they call them, the not the industry, but the the community where they're trying to take care of the young LGBT iq plus people. They're saying this is so dangerous. It's certainly setting a bad precedent. And you know, but I think it all ties into the biggest story around the media has gotten so ugly, you know, in the last decade for that, you know, clicks, click so they can get customers and eyeballs. But, you know, where's the respect and of course, we're seeing in in politics, you know, the whole trends conversation in America, and in Australia, was used as an election ploy. You know, the most some of the most vulnerable people in our societies are being used as as fodder in the political fight. We're seeing them and then we're seeing the media not respecting a person's right. You know, coming out. I don't know what that experience is, like, I talked to my friends who've come out and just asking them about it, but I personally could never understand it. But I think there's a bit of a reckoning going on in the media. It's well overdue. And let's hope some something changes because between the media and the governments of the world, there The ability to divide us is destroying the foundations of the societies that we live in. And it's time that we say enough. And I think the Australian election said, Yep, we've had enough. And we're not going to vote for these guys. I said, when during that election coverage, we were talking about it. I think it was a real Murdoch failing the the election, because the bullshit that they've been spewing for all these years, and right now, the Murdoch media is blaming the Australian government in power for three weeks for the global crises, or the National crises they're dealing with right now. So you know, within three weeks of being in power, you're already getting blamed for the problems created by the guys before. So anyway, the ones who were in for a whole nine years, you know, just nine years into three weeks. You know, Alva was a miracle worker didn't you know? Oh, that's amazing, right. But yeah, there's a bit of a reckoning going on to have you guys had a chance. So did you see any of the coverage? I mean, rebel, got on. Like, I hope she's happy. Well, I think what's happened also is that we have the shifting sands of what what is normal, and what's really newsworthy. I mean, like, like, you know, in terms of like, how you hear something. Now, if you talk about ego, like, did you hear about, did you hear about Rebel Wilson and her relationship? It's, I mean, this is the first I'm hearing about it. And in my mind, I was already going like, oh, okay, cool guy, you know, what have I didn't, I didn't really think, who and are and all that. So but I do understand the dynamics of of getting out there, you know, as like, you know, against your, against your wishes, and that sort of thing. But I do think that the line is kind of shifting as to what is what is something that is just too much not to print them out or not, not to say anything about and whether or not actually it is as significant and as big a deal as it used to be. Because I think, I think if we hold some of the oldest standards, and we go like, Okay, you would never talk about these things, it was way too scandalous or salacious, but not now. It's no longer I think about that. And if we can, if we can normalize it and make it so that people are like, okay, so we just found out whether she's straight gay or bi whatever it was. And that was it. You know, I think that would also be an interesting perspective. I do feel sometimes that we hang on a little bit too tightly to the things that we feel almost have to be announced at some point. I mean, I think like, for instance, gender reveal parties, it's the way we probably give the river the revelation of agenda, way too much power. Right. So I think sometimes when it comes to when it comes to outing as well, it is, it is somewhere in that category. I mean, we've always had friends who I don't know, just for me, just friends that you just got like, we've always known, you know, when the band when the album sells, and they kind of wait for the the reaction to go like, well, we kind of knew. I mean, that those are the kinds of things that I think are more commonplace in that that should be kind of the way that will work. That shouldn't become a non story. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's it might be just we're just maybe we're just curious about who this person is. But that's about it, the orientation probably wouldn't be an issue at all. Yeah. But I think the one thing to also note is that you also have a lot of people who are raised in very conservative micro, like little communities, where they only see one perspective. And when you're coming into the monitoring them effective, it just seems so crazy. And so not possible, that I don't think they intentionally are trying to be like, mean, or someone is that they have never seen a world other than the one that they've seen. And I think like maybe I think all four of us are a little bit lucky that we have been exposed to so many different nationalities and different ways of looking. The fact that we've been in Singapore and exposure is super high. But if you like grew up in a small little town, in the middle of nowhere in Australia, for example, and I love the story of manette was a comedian. She grew up in Tasmania, and she was like, you know, she couldn't come out and be herself because the people that love her, and you know, she loves, but hit her. And it's heartbreaking, but they had never seen an option other than the weather they were living in. But she's mindful that sometimes we Yeah, so it's just like she was from the generation that I grew up in and also in a country town in Australia. And we did have people who were gay in our community, even in a Catholic community, there were gay people and it was becoming more of not accepted. You know, it was just okay that you're that you're that I'm this, you know, no big deal in Tasmania at that time. She I think she's probably a little bit older than us, Joanne I'm potentially a little bit more sort of closed minded, but even there, they're probably opened up. But from a media perspective, I mean, such as Tasmania, we'd had Bob Brown as a Senator for a very long time. Just kind of it was like it and so. So when I look at the whole conversation around Reverend Williams to sort of like take it into the here and now as opposed to, you know, where things were of 1020 years ago, and I hear you, yes, men that different micro cultures will have different norms. Today, as well as in the past, is what struck me was the first part, it was like talking about, you know, her new relationship, I'm sort of going, Oh, yes, another celebrity relationship story, Who's Tom Cruise date and kind of thing. And so to me, it was not so much about the piece was not so much about the relationship, because, you know, frankly, women's magazine is that it's been fodder for a really long time. It was the fact that it was the pressure to say we're calling it because it's with a particular gender as opposed to really? Yeah, that to me was where I think the call out on media is being completely and utterly right. It's like, forced. In Australia, the social rules are you don't force that one. And what this guy did was he forced it. And that was that was, that was an abuse of power. Right. Okay. So yeah, it's just, it's just not ethical. That I mean, I'm differentiating is the abuse of power and forcing a revelation that's considered private business was an abuse of power. The, if you're a public, that was the piece, it was not so much about a relationship, it was that the force of because if she was dating a guy who would have witnessed would have been Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. It was it was the abuse of power used in the process that I think is that the piece that I've at least the commentary I've been reading, I kind of thought, Well, I'm glad that bits been called out on. Yeah. And then the wider experience on the community, especially the LGBT community, who are, who have been going through hell for the last couple of years. I mean, you my weekend rates, I'm going to share a Wall Street Journal, I think it's Wall Street Journal Revox discussion around being trans in America, what young people are going through, in many states, you know, like, a parent can be accused of child abuse, if they help their child transition or, or give them a medication to sort of stop puberty or any, I mean, it's, it's really, really crazy what's going on over there. So, you know, but even though this isn't a trend story, but it is impacting the wider community, and, you know, just the ability, the media, do, they have the right to talk about stuff like this. And that's one thing I want to bring up as well is like, back to the unawareness, because like, for example, last year, I was moderating a panel. And then there were these two gentlemen, run a trans education company for corporate leaders. And like, the stuff that they were sharing, I would never have thought of, because I've never had to be sensitive to that idea before. And I cannot have that empathy, because I never, I never actually told actually, it was when they were telling me in terms of like, Oh, my God, do I call you, like, you should just ask, I didn't even know that awareness of education. I also feel like sometimes we, we judge by sometimes the level of like, literally, like unawareness, and people are doing it blindly. They're not doing it with intention, or malice or just doing they don't know a better way. So I feel like there's gonna always be parts where it's a little difficult for us to kind of, like, get awareness. And I'm, and I think I'll consider myself as quite an inclusive person, the mix and everything. But it's just things I just don't know. And then if I don't know them, I might come across as being uneducated, or I might come across as being rude. But it's not the intention I have, when I'm acting that way. Yeah, but a journalist for a major or national newspaper has operated by ethics, right? Ethics, their personal value systems. And there's an there's personal value systems. And there are gossip columnist and I, I wish those people never existed, but beside the point, right, but there's certainly ethics and personal values that need to come into it. But there's also, you know, just a code of conduct, but something like that. I've got the story. I'd like to share the story, which you'd like to be part of the story versus you've got 27 hours, and I'm going to publish, which was basically what he said. And then the editor who only got put in the beginning of the year. First of all, they denied the story, then they they came back with two additional apologies. So I mean, it's been just a it's just a mess, but, but the bigger conversation to me is about, you know the media's role in the world and the damaging role that it's having in the world. And in this case, I'm a rebel. If you don't follow her on social media, she's very active and she's always sharing stuff. From a whole diet journey was done, you know, Instagram, she's very, very active. And she shares a lot. She's not hiding, hiding anything. But I do think that conversation needs to happen about the media and their role in society. And this is just part of the story for me. Well, I mean, for me, what I what I felt about what I feel about this, as I'm, as I'm hearing, and actually is that I think that's what they kind of did in terms of giving them time to respond. But I think it just, it was the it was the bad taste, I think that everyone decided that it was going to leave in their mouth after you know, sometimes when something comes up, you kind of go like, which way to go. And then you know, the the, the audience looks to his left looks to the triangles, like Okay, so this is the appropriate reaction? I don't know, I'm really I'm a bit, I'm a bit that comment and giving, giving her time to respond. It's, it shouldn't be about that. It should be, is this something that you even you even want the world to know? Because if you don't, or if you're not ready for it? Why should you be forced? This is what she did. And so then the Herald is annoyed with her because she actually gives up the story, right? But she's a courageous lady. But what if she never wanted the world to know that? What if she was just going through an experimental phase? And then the next person was was a bloke, right? It it's, you know, to, you know, if I fell in love with the woman, you know, when I decide to tell my community that that's happened is up to me, it's my timeframe, right? Just because she's famous, doesn't mean, she hasn't got the right to control that timeframe, surely, actually, in some places, actually it does, is that if you're considered a public figure, there's an acceptance, that part of as you're a public figure, there's a different amount of information that is considered appropriate for comment. And when you think about it, take it off the particular case of her particular issues around it, if you had somebody who was holding out that they're wonderful, they're doing this, this, this and this, say, as a politician, or a senior businessman, word, often you'll see this one, and yet they're actively doing something that is against the value system they're holding out. And that's where the, that's where that's where these these original laws of slander and libel come from is that you want to be able to call them out. But you also want to be able to protect the reputation of the individual, and then that there's a clear definition on what's public and private property. And as soon as you're particularly like, high influencer influencers, so there's, you know, so there's a part of me that the mere fact that I'm not asked to, you know, will I be an influence influencer means I don't have as much risk of being a public figure, and therefore, losing the defensive saying, I'm a private individual. And no, that's not fair game. So there's a, there is something that happens when when you are when you're in the movies and things like that you kind of automatically, by definition, become public. And you kind of it's not, the media still has a role of calling things out. But there's got to be a nicer way of Yeah. Yeah, it's the it's the bigger impact. It's not because it's not just her story, its impact on the people, the younger people who are in the same position, right. So it's never just about the story. It can't be, because you're just not paying attention. Right. But I suppose the question here is, media has a strong responsibility and accountability for what it publishes. Yeah. I I've never looked at, you know, like, like gossip columnists anyway, along the spectrum of journalists anyway. But I think I do. I do see this way. I think at the moment, you have someone called publicist on your payroll, so you have a publicist working for you, your business includes kind of like getting the public to speak about you. And it does kind of shift you into the crosshairs if you like. So if anything, I mean, I feel sometimes discretion is also something that that is that is something that you have to take hold off, if you are discreet, and no one sees anything, that's fine. But if you happen to be seen, you have to be prepared. So when I when I was, when not not that I'm a celebrity of any, any any magnitude in Singapore, but you know, there was a time when I felt I was being watched. I always thought to myself, I have to do everything that I'm prepared to be seen publicly doing. Right. I mean, that's that's basically it. So, I don't know, I do feel that when when when you make your living publicly, you have to be prepared for for things like this to come up. And honestly, that the person working behind the counter at the bank isn't going to get this kind of coverage they wouldn't even make it wouldn't be making a tea room conversation. I think sometimes, but if you happen to be famous, you've got to you've got to take you gotta take both sides of it right because fame, gets you a lot of the stuff that you have as well. It's gonna come with some of the sides, you might not like as much. So there's some people who have withdrawn completely from it. I mean, like, what's his name? I can't remember now but Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, you know that guy? Yeah, yeah, completely removed himself from the business and didn't, you know, just basically didn't do anything else and all that and basically said, You know what I'm going to I'm going to be private. Now I'm going to look after my kids and all that. And there was some talk about that. But because he had left the room and stopped doing that stuff, basically was left to do what he wanted to do. So it's a mixed bag, I really, I really feel that, you know, if you if you are, if you aren't promoting movies at the same time and doing something and trying to get a project off the ground, and all the different things, if it just randomly swooped down and do a story on you. Yeah, but if you happen to be I mean, she, she is, I wouldn't say flavor of the day, but she's very much in vogue for these few months. I mean, she's done a lot of nice things. He's come out on the, you know, doing doing lots of press promoting the movie having a good hit on Netflix, all those things. You know, it does shine a spotlight. Yeah. Yeah, I don't agree with the I don't I don't agree with forcing her hand. I just want to be clear about that. But I do also understand, you know, that there's a lot of, there's a lot of calculus involved. Yeah, but I also think like, I'm sorry, but like tabloids, I would not consider as, like, at any point of time journalism, it's just somebody who's, and they also don't get paid for like the predator the TOG refer. That's like the the proof point if you can actually use. Yeah, I don't know, I just find it like, but as to kind of be with Joe, like, when you are a celebrity, that's part of your reputation. And there's actually a show on Netflix a couple of months ago, where it was filmed in the pandemic, making fun of actors in the pandemic. And at the end of the reason, the bubble, and they had this one girl who had like, I don't know how many million followers on Tiktok. But like, also, the way we market and how we get things out there today is longer houses than before. So part of building that personal brand is actually your cloud in the conversation. When you're moving forward in the business transaction as well. Alright, you broke up a little bit there. But But anyway, let's let's move on to the next story. I think we're inconclusive on that. I think you know, I've never been a gossip magazine person anyway. So. But every now and again, I do have a look at mostly when you have your hair cut side of that or the dentist? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Read something. I gave up on girl magazines when I was a teenager because I realized they were making me feel bad about myself. So the teen stuff, so I just went now I'm not reading this anymore. And I'm stuck by it ever since National Geographic for me. All right. Another really good news story this week was Aaron banks loses libel action against reporter Carol cada Wallah, I hope I'm saying her name correctly. So she did the famous TED talk on misinformation and the social media companies and what they're doing. And then she recently did one on the weaponization of social media, and how Putin is basically used it. And we're being at war with Putin from a social media perspective for a decade, and we've talked about this before. But in the UK, you can take a journalist to court as an individual in a libel case, which is an unusual thing around the world. And she has been through hell and back in this process. And she's, she's a whole bunch of people that come together and helped her crowdfund to pay for the case. If you ever have an opportunity to listen to what she says, if any of you guys have watched her TED talk or some of her recent videos, did you watch the weaponization of social media? I shared it a while ago energy to have a look? Well, I've followed Carol Halliwell for a long time, she was an FTD columnist way back and been, we've been in the finance media as a very incisive commentator for a very long time. I mean, she's someone who lives and breathes the industry in an observation. So she's the proper, proper old school journalist, get your facts and be prepared to have the courage to write the story. So when I saw that announcement this week, it was definitely a moment of goodness. Yeah. So it's a significant decision for Public Interest journalism. So she's one of those people that does that, really, the really deep research that can take years and years and years and a lot of those big sort of reports that get broken, that you know, the Guardian has been doing the work for, like four or five years. She's one of those journalists that's behind that. So anyway, I just thought it was a great story because of course, Aaron Banks has been tied to Russian money and Russian friends and influence and of course in these in these days and age that that matters. So yeah, so good news. Exactly. All right, um, the Maasai are under attack in Tanzania. And our friend, Kevin, Kevin cotton, the global nomads, he sort of he's been jumping, sort of sending me some stuff. And I started looking into it. And I don't know if you saw that they were attacked, and they've been driven off their land so that some very, very wealthy people from the UAE can go and have a luxury Game Reserve and obviously go hunting. This has failed in the past because of protests. There's no question that because of the economic impact of COVID, that it's a way to get a lot of money into the country very, very quickly. But it's so wrong on so many levels. It's just it's just mind boggling. It boggles my mind that we're even here. First of all, like the, you know, the diversity and ecosystem there that needs to be taken care of, well, because you know, you know, extinctions on the rise, but the Maasai people we need, we need to take care of them, we need to honor them, we need to listen to them, we need to learn from them. But the barbarity of it, you know, when there's a lot of propaganda by the government. You know, Kevin's talking to people actually on the ground getting real real time feedback, but people who are being found sharing images or videos in the Maasai community, they're being arrested and nobody knows where they are. So, you know, there's, you can see some terrible photos of people. And for the first time, they're talking about taking up arms against the government, and they're not, they're not a violent community. So I just think we've just got to, it's not getting enough attention. I was pleased to see the Guardian publish a piece, but it's not getting enough attention. And it deserves attention, because these people deserve to be protected, and they deserve our voice out there in the world. So any thoughts? Well, I think it's, I think it's quite good reminds me just in terms of in terms of of coverage, I think we might be the only time anyone, if someone's watching the show right now, they might be the only time they've ever heard of it, because it's one of those stories, which doesn't come up on the main feed, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. Like for me, like years and years ago. Yeah, so the first time I went to Kenya, it was a different story, but pretty much the same as we're having right now. And it was a time where you had a couple of Americans who were killed in the embassy, much of the story. And it was like seven Americans killed. And then afterwards, you had so many Kenyans that were injured, nothing covered about them or their families. So a few months later, when I'm actually in Kenya, there was like fire and there was riots, and there is no coverage about it. So what I kind of see is like, media today is selective in terms of who has that bigger pocket. And that bigger space. And obviously, unfortunately, the animals that are in, in the Maasai Mara, like many different national parks are not important for people because they're a tiny community, that doesn't matter. In many people's eyes. Just very, very sad. That like the game reserve has wanted because of the animals that are there, but the people are an inconvenience, or an inconvenience. So it's, yeah, exactly. It's been said there the history of going in and taking tribal lands, and what I find, so what's happening right now in, in Kenya is horrible. And then we sort of come other parts of the world where people are going, Well, how do we create apologies, and restitution? And what kind of governance goes back to the tribal, traditional, original, depending on the country, you're from the people who've had their historical actions with the land. Because that two layers of people who've been living there and the legal system come in and say, Well, how do you want to parse it up, which is a power power game? And often it's absolutely stuff all to do with those are on the ground until the power system was drawn line says, Okay, well, we really want that now, we'll send the guns in, then you have an a bit of a breakup. So Denyce is just sort of commenting, no excuse, and totally agree with him. And you know, that we, we need to rise in consciousness if we have any chance of sort of overcoming the challenges that we face as a global society, right. All through history, we've got all these stories of coming in decimating, you know, through sickness or just through violence, you know, Australia with the Aborigines in New Zealand with the Maori community, like all over the world, right. And we look at, I've talked about this before, but we, when we, when we come from the country that have been the victors, we, you know, we're the good guys. Right? But the reality is we've we've destroyed, killed and lost so much ancient wisdom. And it's time to recognize that that isn't A sign of our success, because we can see that now more than ever, we actually need the indigenous thinking and their, you know, their heritage in all of these environments around the world to save them. So other No, I think we're just, we need to go through such profound change in our communities if we've got any chance of overcoming. And to me, the fact that this is happening now just shows us, you know, like, if you look at around the world, there's all these negative old way of old way of the world things going on the war in Russia and Ukraine, right? And if we don't get out of that mindset, are we ever going to make it? Well, there's some things about it, we, we have, we have a tendency, I think, the cherry pick as well, right? We we tend to look at things and you're like, oh, this terrible things in the past, we don't do any more. And then these great things you do now, you know. And then we talk about the great things we don't do anymore, when we tend to look, look at both sides, we tend to cherry pick the one that that feels better for the conversation. I do think things move on things get forgotten, there are things that we I mean, we can we can always gather around and celebrate how great the wheel was. But it does get to a point where the wheels like okay, well, it's a wheel, it was there. It was good. It was tight. It was it was big, or it's time and then we moved on, right. And then same with fire. So there is unfortunately some something to it that of course, always two sides of the coin. But I look at Singapore as a counter example. You know, like, like in Singapore, we have hardly any real history in terms of buildings. If you look around and go like what was there before, I can't recall? Because you know, every every few years we is the constant progress that happens, right? And if you think about it, even in nature, what happens is that there is a constant moving forward, actually, what what actually happens in nature is nature overruns the it tends to overrun whatever was there. So sometimes it's going to be weeds. Sometimes it's going to be these flowers. Sometimes it's going to be this, these insects sometimes going to be these frogs, right? I mean, of course, maybe men did introduce some of those frogs. But I mean, the nature of nature is that it does overrun, it does supersede what was there before and some of that naturally happens. So I do realize that yes, we do feel that we can be we should be looking at the wisdom and all that. And I think that's that's that's definitely going to be there. But we also, we also have to realize that there was a price sort of like paid, you know, to do this, right? That the price for for us having all the technology that we have now, I mean, people being able to have access to the internet and Google this and that and whatever is this, the price now is that we don't have specialized. We don't have broader skills anymore. People, people are ultra specialized in terms of the information and the knowledge. They don't have broader wisdom anymore, or they don't have as broadly educated anymore. We ask an engineer and nowadays, how do you make a pencil, you're less likely to have someone who knows how to make a pencil then back in the old days, right? Because back in the old days, you had to know everything. Now we Ultra specialize. But it's also part of the price that we paid. Because now we're here in a world where things happen the way they do, we've got the Googles, we've got the apples, we've got all the high tech, we've got the self driving cars, we're gonna lose, you know, some carpenters along the way. Now just want to disagree with one thing he said was nature always overruns nature, Rachel nature doesn't overrun nature when it's an introduced species, like the cane toads in Australia or the rabbits, that sort of thing, right? But nature typically doesn't overrun nature, because then it can't survive. So, you know, that's why the migration paths of birds are so important because they go here at this time a year for this, and then they go to the next place. So they never overrun nature. Humans are pretty unique. Would you? Would you agree with that? I don't, I don't think we are guilt free in terms of being responsible for some of that. But I mean, if you if you think about the dodo, for instance, right, the bird and the way he evolved, right? It was bound for extinction, it was not going to survive in the long term. All that would have to happen was if someone did introduce cats or other kinds of predators on the ground, this was a bird that was not going to survive, it could not survive, it would be killed by other predators, right. I mean, we we accelerated it as as human beings, but I think sometimes Yeah, things are gonna happen that way. I mean, you know, if you think about what would have happened naturally, as well, I think I'm not even sure if human beings would have really thrived in Australia given the number of venomous creatures you have running around. You know, it may not have been as hospitable. But we kind of leveraged our way into that. But yeah, I do agree that we've been responsible for bad things, I came towards all that. I can remember where else the rabbits, I think rabbits in Australia at some point, that was also a contribution by the Western world. But you know, at the same time, I do think when you look at, when you just look at ecosystems, they never static, they move up and down, and they're going to come to a point where it just it does shift in this in a certain direction. And sometimes when something outside of them happens, like if we assume that, okay, we control as human beings everything, then then we're responsible for it. But when, let's say we're not responsible, the Ice Age, for instance, that changes the balance, it's going to move some things a certain direction, and then something else happened. So it is it is a balance, that is it going to stay static, when something when something changes within that. So I, I, I recognize we need to do something, I recognize that we are responsible, we have been responsible, and I say we as the human race over the centuries. But at the same time, there are certain things as well, that are the way nature works, I mean, nature is going to do that. Because if we, for instance, if we don't, if we don't live in a city, and we just abandon it, it gets overrun. And it doesn't just get overrun uniformly, certain kinds of vegetation, certain kinds of animals are going to be dominant in that particular area, because of the advantages that naturally there for them. So that's what I mean by by how nature overruns, it tends to do that when the when the weather gets a little less, less wet, a different kind of vegetation kicks in. And that sometimes favors another kind of another kind of animal as well, which then feeds you know, it's all it's all connected that way. Yeah. Yeah, great. You guys. Know, the thoughts. I don't know, I feel like it's all evolution. And I think also, it's easier to look back and judge and to understand people are going through at the moment. And if you look at just like what people go through on a day to day basis. And if you look at also like survival, and some basic things that are there. And as a species, we're looking to solve problems. But sometimes we solve a problem on a micro level, not on a macro level. And that's where I feel like the problems that we have today is because we've been really good at solving micro problems, and not realizing the consequences at the macro level. That's why I see like, for example, like what John's doing this amazing work around climate change is like, we didn't know this stuff, the way we know it today, because of the data technology in place that it's undeniable before people were saying it, but it was not. It was like it was arguable because people didn't always agree on that. But now it's undeniable. And I also think it's because of the fact that like, we can see a problem on multiple levels, because as we've also evolved. So that's my take on it is that, like, we've always been solving problems, but sometimes we don't see the bigger impact of those problems. Yeah, I often wonder why why why can't we? Why can't we do that? Like what you know, like if I if I do this, this could happen. I mean, we learn about consequences as children, right? And on a global scale, why can't we like, we've got plenty of examples in our history. And, and like even today, so many bits and pieces that we'll talk about in a bit, you know, we're just the way people think means thinking. Go? Yeah, I think it's like they cannot do it. I just think it's like, it never had to look at that different level. Because let's say you ask the question, how do I make more food? Simple question. And okay, cool. Well, if I do like a manufacturing line, I do like a production line, or I create a farm, that's better structure, I will make more pool right. Now. No one thought about the fact that when you do that, in fact, we have an environment by doing that our production line because that wasn't the question we were asking. If we ask the question, how can I make more food sustainably? It's a very different question than how to make more food. So what has been happening in the past is we've been solving problems from that very simple one dimensional lens. And today, we're discovering that it cannot be the case anymore. So we can do it differently. But I think it boils down to ask better quality questions. So we can figure out solutions for the bad quality questions. So this is this is one of those things. So I think this is a really fascinating thing, right? So that totally I'm agreeing with what you're saying but it You know, okay, so we've talked about this before, back in the beginning of the last decade, we had 500 million middle class. Now we're at 3.2 billion middle class people, right? I come. And I know that I know that there were were people in the world that were going, Whoa, this is this is big, you know. So if we go from 500 million people to 3.2 billion people having fruit, refrigerators, cars, could go on international travel, eat lobsters, eat beef, that's probably not going to be a good thing for the environment. Right. And the information about the environment was already well established, you know, that at least, you know, Al Gore sort of put it on center stage. So for me, is it the short termism of Democratic politicians, where I'm only going to be in for this sort of period of time? So I'm going to be short term focused? And don't worry about that, because that's later, or is it something else? You know, so for me, it's like, it's almost giving an excuse about the you know, we don't ask the right questions. That's an excuse. We expect the leaders of business in the world to go. You know, Westinghouse or whoever makes fridges they must have at some point. That's well known. Right? Australia. Sorry. Like, often you're speaking and I kind of anyone, I was excited to hear what you said it at some point. We, we grew up with the ozone hole. And that was what the 80s. Right. And they worked out. It was from refrigerators. That was in the 80s. And then so they sort of changed whatever the CFCs claro claro, fluorocarbons. Yeah. And they sorted it out there back in the atmosphere now, because apparently, they're being released from factories in China. But we, we worked it out, close the hole. Amazing, we can do something. But then all these other people started buying refrigerators, which was still bad. And like, I'm sorry, but the CEOs of those companies, the consultants serving those companies, the government's leading those countries, like, how did they ever allow it? Like, literally, you know, they see the pictures of China in the 80s. Everyone's on a bicycle. You look at China now and everyone's in a car? How are we really going to believe that never never sort of sat there when this could be a problem? Pets? Right? Have you ever looked at the growth in the interest industrial growth of pet food, which has fish and meat and chickens? Right? And it's just gone like that? And you know, in Asia, you see people went from not having pets to having pets, and we've witnessed it in our lifetimes, right? That's an industry this has gone like that. They've all just gone like that. And this idea that no one was paying attention. Like, how could we not have said to you, it's like, Do you have a pet? Yep. Impression writer. Yeah, of course. Because that's what I grew up with. Right? Yeah. I understand I understand the numbers. But this is a reality. Just because you have that luxury, and somebody else wants it. Like, that is just also a desire that people have. And if you look at, for example, in a sale, a sale, oftentimes, when we're looking to market and sell, we're looking to market itself, to the 3% of buyers who have an awareness of the problem. And the rest of the people have no awareness and understanding, have no knowing of what's going on. So it's easy to say that from a perspective of like, Yeah, we should be doing better. But people don't know better people are operating on the unawareness level, as a psychologist, like people are super by with so many different thoughts, that they haven't had to think about it. And just because you we grew up with those things. And people want the same things, the luxury of having at their house, to have fresh food, and to have a pet, because it's much more like loving and fun. If you're also having those things, you're also supporting it. So I feel like I understand your argument. But I also, I also understand, like, I understand why somebody else would want it too. Because you know, not having those things is also an inconvenience. So for me, it always will ask like, Can we ask better quality questions where we can be like, how can we make more sustainable refrigerators? How can we make sure that we're not impacting the environment as we're creating more food because people have the demand for that? And instead of like being angry, like I feel like that's the wrong energy to be in when it comes to solving problems instead is like, how can we look at it differently? Because yeah, I suppose you could blame the past but like we are where we are right now. And therefore as leaders, we need to think about how can we change the future where we want to be? And I think if we look at the way we're living today in a world like we had like Bill Gates wanted every hospital, I have a computer. That was a crazy dream. And he did it right now every household has that. That was someone else's vision that we're at this time where we can design our own vision for the future. And that might be having it that's the questions, we have to have an ask because like, if you don't have those visions that are clear, then we cannot push the condition very differently. And we're living in a world that somebody else designed. And I think it's a pretty good world. Obviously, there's problems. But I want to live in an even better world, which is what I want to create. Yeah, you're talking about the pet food. Sorry, Joe. Just quickly, you know, bugs, protein, creating pet food from from from, from that. It's not happening yet. It's a tiny, tiny, tiny little industry, right? So that sort of stuff. Pet pets, we need to be looking at how do we how do we limit it because it's become explosive, right? We don't need more animals that don't contribute. We don't need more humans that don't contribute, you know, but we don't need more, right, we need to reduce so. But that's not something we can talk about it. But it's something that the leaders of governments and the leaders of business need to start doing. And I'm not hearing those conversations in the industry. Just just I was just reading today like the offset that the emissions from the the industries put money into whatever they put it in banks, investments, blah, blah, blah, just the emissions created off of that. Have you guys seen this? Basically, you have doubled their emissions overnight. So companies like Google, or Apple or Microsoft have all been working really hard to get their emissions under control, or where they store their money is actually doubling their emissions because it's being invested in fossil fuel industries, right? So there's some really big complex things going on, around it. And we can speak up, but we need that global kind of consensus of we've got a problem, how do we fix it? Which is part of what you were saying, Yasmin, and it's not about being negative. It's about when are we going to start having the conversations? Because we're not? Well, at the right levels, I was just gonna kind of do the fence about the idea of not knowing right, I mean, I, I know that we always think about it in terms of what we don't have an excuse, you don't have any excuse. I was a pretty thoughtful, you know, 20 something year old. As I got into, I got married, and I had my plans and ideas for how I'm going to raise my kids and this and that, you know, and all these really big ideas. And I kind of thought I knew everything. And and for the most part, I think I did it pretty well. But there were a lot of things that happen along the way, which I really didn't expect, right? And I don't think as many people as I think it will become parents and also Hawaiian business. Take it on as that huge, huge everything. thing that it actually is, right? I mean, if you're if you're in business, few people think of themselves as people who are custodians of the environment. They think of themselves as the CEO of this company that produces this product, right? And what what I'm hearing is that, yeah, we have to have that kind of it would be much better if everyone in the world thought of themselves as custodians of the planet, where we were, we're using what we can to create what we need, but we're still aware of that role that we're custodians. So it's something that that I mean, to me as as a parent, did come quite late as well, I realized that like now I look at the look at the parenting I've done, I went okay, I did some of the things well, but I have missed out on some pretty crucial aspects. And I think I've screwed up my kids in certain ways, with all the best intentions, and there's also what you can undo right? I mean, there's some there's some things I can't undo with some of my kids, I can't make them suddenly feel okay with me because there's something that desperately needs to happen for that to kind of come around as well. So we're kind of stuck in this place where too far gone in some some aspects even as you try to fix the problem, you're gonna be contributing to the problem like I think we talked about this before as well you know, the technology that we are trying to use to solve the problems by themselves they also the creation of these technologies is going to create some some omissions and other stuff as well which which are going to be problematic, right? And then sometimes in the effort to solve the problem, we create problems that we didn't think we did like, for instance, I learned about environmentally, environmentally friendly laundry solutions, right. The idea that if you use the many ways that the industry has been trying to you know, at least The big so green industries are trying to come up with detergents that work with less chemicals and all the different different aspects of things. And what and what they finally found was. And it's not universal for all divergent companies. But scientists who are working on detergents for the large companies, were able to create environmentally less impactful detergents, then the green ones. So the green, the people who are involved in in the green message and then want to do all the good in the world, they're putting out a product that actually is responsible for more output more more emissions than the ones that they say that they're replacing, as well. So there is a lot to be said about unintended consequences and the stuff you don't know you don't know, right? I mean, yeah. Just like a parent, I came up with some ideas, which I thought were gonna be great ideas, which have turned out a little bit differently. Yeah, and we've got to allow that sort of transition through and mistakes, right, there was a, I saw a tweet the other day, really criticizing AOC and the green New Deal, basically saying it's naive and childish. And it's like, well, you know, I don't think that's the right thing to say, because, you know, they fought for something that they really believed in, and they put a conversation, front and center that needed to be put front and center. And now we move forward from there. And it might not be enough. But it was a starting point that brought people with him, right. And inside that whole sort of what's what's the culture where you sort of block people? What's that called? Counseling? Yeah, the canceled culture, right? It's not it's not useful, you know, because nobody knew where we were, and how quickly this was all happening. And we need to give it we just need to move forward together, right. Huge, huge fan of Audacity, which is why we're doing this show, right? Because I know, you know, and why continue to want to do the show, I used to come from a background where I would have a very bad day, if I felt that I was getting less than 300,000 people listening to the show. Now, I'm okay with the idea of a handful of people watching and listening and getting something out of this, because this is what audacity is about, right? It's about putting something out there, which is maybe not as, as well known or as big a deal yet, but it could happen. And I think that's what, what we need more of, you know, we need to be pushing it out there. And the thing that I've always talked about in terms of what I do, which is the you know, presentation and coaching and stuff, right? It's like, if you have a good idea, you can't just rely on the idea being good, right? It's got to be able to get that idea to other people and put it in the hands of other people so that it can move on to the next person. And you know, maybe that the full callback is to BTS. Right? I mean, the simple message put out there in a simple package that maybe looks pretty good as well. Works. looks very good. Yeah. Yeah, super wise. Today, I know you've been a bit quiet for a while you want to jump in. Again, I can do I can do quite the like some of this one is, I feel like this needs to be a mindfulness about me telling other people how to live their lives, when I've benefited from a whole bunch of things. So I far more prefer the approach to it, we've had a massive amount of work in the last 20 years to lift people out of poverty. That is going to have a consequential interest in all the sorts of perks and privileges that my cultural background has been lucky enough to give me. So on FAR, Phil, it's far more valid to ask, how do we create the quality of life possibilities, the infrastructure that gives these sorts of things, the technologies that will allow an equivalent style of service that have a significantly lower physical footprint? Yeah. Because that's the issue. It's like, it's not that there's more people on the planet is that there's, there's more people doing I'm going to use the fat western lifestyle. Yeah, that's either. This is really tragic. You know, another 100 million and poor rice farmers doesn't do that much environmental damage. Is 100 million Western lifestyles, that does a significant amount of damage. Now, I've benefited from a Western lifestyle, so I would fall, you know, so I'd be going, how and this is where I take from business side and the business opportunities, because I have learned over the years if we blame people, they're not that they do not get exactly what Paul was amazing on that and Thailand, absolutely huge. And it was a real privilege when I lived there and saw him in action. You know, as if we blind people they don't they don't go for it. If we're angry at them, they don't go forward. We've worked that one out with kids. But when we give people positive spaces can move forward. And we ask questions where it's like, okay, well, if you can solve that you're doing a massive amount of good, both financially because that's necessary for business to prosper, and for other people, that that code joint world is far more likely to pop us through, then telling people where you can't have refrigerants. What other what other technologies would be available or could become available that would allow a vast number of people to keep their food stored in a reliable way? So it's not going to waste? I mean, that's a powerful question. And then also, like, think about, like the fact that keeping your food storage, how much economic power you have when you can actually not have to worry about your food, going to waste, and focus on other economic activities that can bring in more abundance for your family. So the luxuries that we have, like going back to John's point is not just luxury of the refrigerator. Its electric luxury, a better quality of life, better job opportunities, being part of the economic cycle, which already the gap between the poor and the rich is insane. The fact that we have devices is one thing, but we have an understanding of software technologies and other things as well. So yeah, totally with your drain on that point. Yeah. So basically, the wealthy needs to come down and the poor need to come up, but we need to sort of get some sort of balance. You know, my conversation, when I mentioned the refrigerators isn't that everyone in the world should have a refrigerator, it's the refrigerator companies 20 3040 years ago, needed to go, Okay, we're going to explode. And it's going to be a wonderful opportunity for our company, how do we do it in a way, that's not going to have a negative impact on the environment, the fashion industry, the airline industry, they just kept building and building and making and making and selling and selling and, you know, quarter quarterly profits, and the short term vision, and they've just done it and done it, and it's gotten bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And here we are, you know, in March, Australia, and America already superseded the planet, you know, within mark, within three months of the first of the year, they they out, they took more from the planet than it could it could give them back to support them, you know. So anyway, moving on. Google engineer has basically, he's been put on leave or leave of absence, after he claimed that the AI program has gone sentient? Did you guys have a chance to have a look at that one? Because I thought it was cool. And it's getting a bit of coverage? Yeah. I just for me, for this is my reaction to the story. And this is a message to all technology companies. We don't believe you anymore. You've lost the trust, you know. So I think Google needs to handle this very, very, very carefully. And from a communications point of view, they need to recognize the deep lack of trust that we have in the message of those companies, because these are the companies that let social media go nuts, right. And they need to be really transparent. I reckon they need to partner with this guy. You know, because if he's got genuine concerns, so we need to know about it, too. Because if AI is sentient, then is that a good thing? Or is it a bad thing? We don't know? Because it can't be behind closed doors anymore. So if they want to get our trust again, it's got to be it's got to be an open, transparent approach. Well, okay, so that's the challenge that they have, because they're technology company, as well. And technology is always about, you know, being getting an edge or having an edge over the competition. So part of the business is secrecy, I'm afraid I mean, it is it is the edge or it is the, it's what protects the or at least incentivizes the progress, right. Because if all you're doing is, as soon as you come up with something, or whatever it is, you release it, and it's not protected, there's going to be an issue. So it's hard for companies to just say, I'm going to put everything out there. And but the question of whether or not we have a sanction, AI, I kind of feel it's a it's a, it's a good thing, when this is served with a lot of, you know, some trepidation as I say it because it has the potential of going wrong. And that's always going to be the problem. Because if you have an AI and this is the biggest challenge, I think it will have is that if we have an AI that ascension, and it's learning from its environment, we need to survive the teenage years. Because we you had to remember what we were when we thought we knew everything. When we were younger, I mean you fewer things, right? So if you have an AI like that, just imagine something with the ability to learn as fast and to give and get that that feedback from itself. It's going to have to go through this growth stage that I'm particularly worried about. If we can figure it out. A for some for some, for an AI to become sentient and learn and be very quick and in isolation for at least the first, you know, a few years and figure out a way that we can get them to the wise part of being an AI. That would be that would be interesting. But would you then end up with a very, you know, inexperienced unworldly sort of AI, which gives you very bad, you know, bad advice and chemistry very, very naive ideas. We'll see. But I for one, actually, I'm looking forward to the world of AI. Because I, I do feel that we were in a world where, I mean, we won't ask anyone to dimension names, but if I asked you about at least, namely five people that you know, that should be replaced by an AI, you probably have answers. Yeah, yeah. I'm not complaining about technology. It's not about that. And, you know, we're not gonna get out of it. You know, it's part of it's part of our life. Right. But, but I do think that some lessons have been learned in the last decade, about technology, and you're talking about the competitive advantage, of course, but something like AI, I think it needs to be, you know, from it's dangerous. It is and in the wrong hands. and the EU is putting all sorts of new rules in place and the most advanced rules in the world, which of course, will then potentially ripple out around the world. But you know, there's always going to be actors in countries that are going to use it for different things like surveillance. You know, before you even commit a crime, you know, that sort of stuff where you can be arrested, even though you haven't committed a crime, which the whole freewill argument comes into the, into the, into the equation, but I just think it's something that we need to be very careful about, I was watching the Terminator movie with, I think it was the third one when the nuclear bomb goes off, and what's what's the, what's the Cloud Platform, its name. And I was anyway, I was just watching it and went, Oh, okay, this is that, you know, where it takes over? And, you know, and at the end of the day, if that's what happens, I don't care, because we're so bloody stupid anyway, you know, we're letting our world go down the toilet. So, you know, it's like, I think, I think in terms of oversight, I choose to believe that there is some oversight that's there. But I think the state of technology is further along than we the average person knows, it's probably closer to something that's been written in sci fi already, because that's always been the way things has been had been right. I mean, sci fi writes the future. And very often, it's just the present. We saw, I think that there's a certain aspect of that going on. And I do feel that there's a I do feel that there's a value in in some secrecy in the sense that it may not be the companies themselves that are just responsible for the secrecy. But I think governments are probably involved in that. Because if I was in government, and I would have to try and figure out how to how to make that how to how to keep it under wraps, because you know, if the private sector was developing, electronic sentient life, I would militarily economically for for the various reasons, I would want to have my finger on that pulse. And I might not want it to be public knowledge. You know, I think, for instance, if Google really has got this technology, that's something that as good as that the fact that you put it out there and say that it is there now makes it the thing that you want to steal the most, right? If you're if you're someone who has in the various intentions. That's the target. And that's the thing that I want to have right now. Even if it's just a matter of curiosity, I'd love to see it myself. And I mean, yeah, and, you know, we haven't talked about quantum computing, which is a whole other layer. Right. So anyway, so we're going into some interesting territory, but I don't think the technology industry is doing and most technology starts with the, with the government and the defense industry before it becomes moves into the commercial space where it gets developed and commercialized. Right, so. But anyway, in Brazil, we saw that the journalist and the environmentalists were officially by the end of the week, we found out that they were killed by so the the journalist name was Don Phillips, and the environmental expert was Bruno Pereira. So I don't know if you've been watching this story. It was a very, very confusing story this week. So first of all, you know, there were headlines, they were found dead. And then you go into the bottom of the article and they weren't found out they hadn't been found at all. Anyway, apparently. Towards the end of this week, it was confirmed they absolutely have been found dead. And one of the people that's been accused actually took them to the body. So we've had more than 200 environment activists killed around Around the world in the last year, and on average were around about 50 journalists a year being killed, which of course, neither is okay. Right. Bolzano is being blamed now, which I think is absolutely fair enough. Because he's allowed, you know, uncontrolled deforestation going on in the Amazon. But also the words that he uses, encourages, encourages hate. And you know, we've seen that with Trump. Boris Johnson, Morrison, you know, I just hope that we wake up and realize that we've got to stop voting for these ugly, horrible, divisive people, because we see the damage they're doing. But I thought that was quite sad that those two who were doing good work in the world passed away. So woman were murdered. Yeah, is it all in my mind went straight away to thinking about how we don't ever feel that badly about gossip columnists to our to our mother in a similar way. I actually wonder how many gossip columns do get murdered. Their characters maybe, but whether their physical lives are at risk in the way that people who stand up safe or environment, which is goes against the interests of certain big businesses and certain government entities and communities to for that matter, because it does sound like in the end with this particular situation, it sounds like it was partly a community response. Or as at one stage, the media was thinking that it could actually be a company based one. So it's, yeah, it's one of the most dangerous areas of the Amazon with, you know, ancient tribes and all sorts of stuff going on and illegal logging. And yeah, I think it'd be a while before we get to the bottom of that. Alright, so I'm feminine drought, we're obviously we're in a bit of a crazy place in the world. There's a bunch of reads, In my weekend reads, but Portugal has now for the very first time hit 97% drought. So I've been talking to my friends in Portugal about that. But a friend of mine recently introduced me to this publication called the byline times. And the title is that the world faces a decade of global hunger that could irreversibly degrade humanity's prospects. So I think no, you were talking about how we've taken a lot of brought a lot of people up out of poverty. But it actually in the last couple of years, a lot more people have gone back into poverty and those numbers are growing. It really makes the point that there's a lot of media that are focused on the Russia, Ukraine war as the reason for the global famine, but that's not actually correct. It's just, it's just a trigger. But what I found really interesting is this is in 2012, there was a study done by one of the authors of the IPCC reports. And basically it was predicting that within 10 years, so now, large parts of Asia responsible for producing much of the world's wheat and maize would experience serious droughts. And they use 12 different climate models to come up with this conclusion. Basically, after the early 2020s, droughts across Asia would last longer. And the country's most impacted would be China, Pakistan, and Turkey, as well as obviously India, which would be impacted the worst. And basically, it started, this has started and what's going on in Ukraine and Russia, it's like a, it's like a little bit of the safety net in the in the mix, that those countries wouldn't be in drought. You know, so we're seeing we're seeing this playing out. But then this other bit talks about a simulation, where in 2016, the US military did a simulation of what a food chain reaction would look like. And that's basically expanding drought conditions, food, food prices would spike by 395%. And it goes through like what exactly what we're seeing now, this was not a prediction. It was a it was exploring the worst possible case scenario. And what we're seeing today is exactly what that scenario was, was playing out. So I thought that was a really interesting piece to do you have a look at the byline times one. It wasn't a very well written piece. It was that was written in un Babel, which is like any professional field, it's a different way of putting your argument and conversation. So it's not one that's easy, the outside world to digest. But no, my take away when I was trying to decipher the it was that it's not that it's irreversible. But we're certainly not. We're going quite long way down the pathway. The consequences are really not very attractive. So you still don't think you think we haven't hit irreversible yet. I think we're past that long time. Is it mostly depends on On which parts of the system when where you want to give up hope. I'm not giving up hope I'm just being realistic. But I think, yeah, just what from? From what I'm saying, you know, it's just like, you know, because once you hit that temperature, then these things happen. And once you hit that temperature, there's a whole series. And it's already starting. So once they start, you know, there's got to be a global reshuffle. I mean, you know, like this report 2012. Yeah, things like maize wheat, it's going to be too hot to grow where it's currently growing. Yes. So where do we need to move it to so that we don't face a famine? We need to move it to land that can sustain the growth, which needs certain temperatures and that sort of thing? Well, there's been a lot of a lot of the agricultural science space organizations, because this has exactly been I mean, these trajectories been out there. So they've been looking at where we're at how do you reduce water needs? What kind of is it varieties or production methodologies that reduce water needs? Because that's, that's a constraint, more heat tolerant as another one, and then it gets into how do you get those particular varieties out to those particular farms and places that actually will be able to sustain and do it? So it's not that people have been ignoring it? It's there's parts of the system are in play that the question is, Will their insights be strong enough to help deal with that, while other action is taken to reduce the the amount of a contribution it's adding to the heating is issues? Yeah. But like, you know, there's one of the stories I think, you know, we've seen one of the bank, one of the farmers, right, five generations of farmers, and they're the first generation to be dealing with heat, which means that they can't grow their crops. So 10 years ago, you know, did their government say, where you are isn't going to be sustainable to build your farm? To secure your farm in the long term? Do we need to, you know, look at relocating your farm up north, so that you can continue? You know, those those sorts of conversations? That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. So those I love those sorts of conversations. But I suppose the challenging question is, we've got human beings still building houses and manufacturing, on floodplains. Yeah, it's just sort of like, because it's convenient and easy. And there isn't necessarily the wealth to go build it elsewhere. So there's a, you know, there's yes, that, like I come from a part of the world where we had big issues in controlling use of forest and read managing reforestation, and foresters who are going, you know, as four generations of us have been doing this, why can't we hack down trees? You know, and, you know, but now we have to that we have to learn a new career. And I had to been coming from an earlier background in technology where we had to retrain every couple of years. If we want to stay in a job, I'm just going to join them on world sunshine. If someone said, I wasn't being terribly empathetic, and I was like I am. But the reality is, lots of people have to make a bit being forced to make fundamental shifts and how they create their income. We see it day in and day out in some industries, like technology. So it's, it's normalized as part of it. And there's some other fields and industries that are having that kind of the way we've done it in the past is not going to be the way that's gonna have a thriving in the future. And it's a big shift in the wine industry in Australia, right. Yeah. You know, they moved to Tasmania, and they've been growing crops in Tasmania for and they think that that will be the was the last wine green region on the planet, like the French morning reasonably gone. It's going to be in Tasmania, slowly. But surely, yeah, exactly. Right. People aren't thinking about that. Look, just couple couple of quick things before we move into Yasmin section. So my sister sent me a tweet today. And it says in 2014, this French weather presenter announced the forecast for August 18 2050, as part of a campaign to alert the reality of climate change. Now, her forecasts that day is the actual forecast for the coming four or five days in May, June 2022. So like one of the things that kind of really sort of spun me around at the beginning, sort of back in February, was scientists saying we will not expect what is we're not expecting what is happening in the environment to happen until 2050. Right. And we've talked about this before, Joe, but that was probably the thing that made me go, oh, you know, because I know what's expected. Right? So I just found this is really, really interesting insight. Another piece that I think is well worth everyone's time and there's many, many more in the environment section, pollen and heat, a looming global challenge for agriculture. So basically, the unusually high springtime temperatures can kill pollen and interfere with the fertilization of crops. So we're doing everything we can, everyone's paying attention to the bees. But you know, the pollen is a pretty important part of that. And they're trying to create heat tolerance, pollens to make sure but basically around at around 90 degrees. The proteins that power pollens, grains, metabolism start to break down. So this to me is a pretty, pretty big story in the mix. 90 degrees Fahrenheit Celsius. Yeah, obviously Fahrenheit. Yeah. I didn't have time to it's probably what? 3032 Celsius, 90 degrees? Probably no, no, no, no, no, no hundreds, hundreds up in the sort of 40s. Excuse me while I go and do a bit of Google Maps. We saw some pretty crazy flooding in Yellowstone National Park this week. There's plenty more stuff in the Oh, yeah. 200,000 homes have been and businesses are at risk of rising sea levels in the UK. Yeah, there's lots going on. But I wanted to hand it over to Yasmin and then we can cover anything else that we've got time for sales and doubt. Are you ready to have a chat? Do you do BSS you? You're in a you're in a hotel room? Right, Yasmin? An Airbnb. Yeah. Right. So you're not in your usual environment? Which is what she's moving around. But yeah, so sale, sales and doubt. So do you want to give us? Do you want to give us your thoughts? And have a conversation about it? Yeah, so I think as a start up, I like kind of defining how I look at a sale. Because oftentimes, people have this meet this conceived notion of what it is. But for me, a sale is an authentic conversation, to help someone achieve what they truly want it to achieve. And it's just about helping them elevate where they are to where they want to go. Now, the reason why we have a sale is because oftentimes, if you have somebody stuck in a way that seeing the world, they cannot get out unless they have some sort of a transformation, and a sale for me, it's just a transaction towards achieving that transformation. So when I when I have that definition of what a sale is, like that, I realized, Okay, why? Why is it that many people don't actually get what they want in this world? Why is it when they when it comes to their final time on Earth, they have some new regrets. And it's because they didn't take those decisions, to make those sales for themselves, whether it's, you know, working with certain people or investing in certain software, or whatever it may be. And that's where I realized a big part of where the opportunity lies and understanding where doubt is, and doubt from two perspectives that from the person who's selling, and that's also the person who's receiving that message for them to be able to transform what they want to get to. So when you're talking about sales, you're talking about it from a completely different context, not not just the traditional idea of what sales is, right? Can you explain that a bit more? Sure. So for me, like, the reason why we buy things is because at some deeper level, we want something that we don't have, maybe for example, when that's your house, you want to refrigerator on the context of this whole conversation today, or you want a puppy, whatever it may be, or we're in a business and you want to be able to have more professional results, or we are afraid of what's happening legally, I'm going to work with Joanne to help have advisory on how to be more sustainable as leaders, right. So there's many different aspects that we're going to be having to buy into. But essentially what we're buying into is always that we have this pain point that has to be results. And a lot of times even though we have to resolve it, or we need to or want to resolve it, one of the many different options that you have on the table. What gets in the way is limitations. As an individual, we will use limitations like Oh, financial, it might be time, it might be that it won't work for me. In a business context, you might say, Oh, it's a board members permission or whether it's, I have to get permission from the procurement department or whatever it is. So we blame it to somebody else to have more power, or we use budget. But if something was on the budget somehow appears. Don't you think it's a matter of reward, effort and reward? I don't get where that question comes from which contexts and he saw me you can reframe it. The more the more effort you put in the more rewards you get, right? Yeah, but I think that's like If you have that argument, meaning it was good enough now to put the effort isn't worth it. But if you're having the effort, and you have that belief that if you work really hard, you'll get what you want to achieve. You can find a lot of people in this world today who work really hard, who don't have results of the should be getting. So I find this belief that you have to work really hard to get something, something that we have been trained on its industrial kind of thought pattern that we've had to learn. That isn't actually something that's makes sense if you want to have certain results. Because the people who work the hardest stuff and the people at the bottom of the the bottom of the economy, not the people at the top of the economy, right. 100 percents. Yeah. Yeah. Especially the physical, grueling labor. So yeah, I get that. Yeah. So the whole idea of thinking like I have to work harder, like, yeah, that's, that's, that's nice. But like, you don't have to work hard to get anything's. Yeah. Yeah. So okay, so, so the downside, how to how to how to pick because, because it's so wide, what you're what you're talking about now, right? So, I mean, maybe maybe give us a couple of examples of like a character example. Okay. So let's say for example, let's have a simple example. Let's say you have somebody wants to lose weight, right. And they maybe had a baby, they've gained 15 kilos, and they want to go back to the pre pregnancy weight, right? That is not my desire. That is their desire. That's called her. Janet. Janet wants those 15 kilos to get to her prepregnancy weight, right. So that is what she wants. Now, what ends up happening is she may meet different people to meet me, Andrea promotes, like, eating intuitively, she might mean Joe was a personal trainer, and Joanne, who is talking about this new gadget, it sounds whatever, right? So what Janet wants to teach us. That is something that is not anyone's opinion, that's what she wants. But in the end of the day, she might go to Andrea and listen to it eating thing. That sounds great, but it works for Andrea, it won't work for me. And the moment she has that it won't work for me, you've lost that sale, because you didn't make her feel at any single point of time. But it would work for her. Doesn't that feel at any point of time, intuitive eating works for everyone to do to learn, and to eating something that can get results fast, then you've lost her because she had an element of doubt. And that's probably looking at messaging and like narrative building, there's multiple levels of the narrative building. If you look at Joel, for example, as a potential personal trainer, she might have so much proof to make her element of doubt, he might have had lost that weight himself. You know, like for his wife, you support his wife is that weight, he may have been overweight his life and he lost himself, he may have had 1000 clients who lost weight, were also overweight like she was. So again, like, it's always about, like helping people like move through that self doubt. For a the seller, someone who's selling and also for be for herself, as a buyer wants to also buy as well. And for me, that's where the sale happened, the sale happens when you let somebody actually like, jump into what's possible for what they want for themselves for the organization, or whatever it is, because they finally understand that they can also have it too. But also that the the word sale you're using isn't even traditional, right? So if you're talking about the intuitive eating example for me, right, that's more of a it's not a it's a you're calling it a sale, but it's not it's a it's a do they believe that eating coaches will exist? I'm sure there are. And they have courses all around intuitive eating. But that's a vehicle to to achieve the results. So like, I just gave a really ridiculous one. But the people who spend a lot of money in that industry, and it's actually it's growing, because they believe it would work for them, which is fine. But the reality is, whatever you're selling is helping someone overcome that doubt in you. A and then secondly, the second layer, it's more important is that in themselves, that's why for me like sales is actually a very spiritual practice because you're literally helping change how people see their world and helping them get there because they believe more themselves when they make those transactions. Alright, so can we take it from a individual trying to lose weight through a b2b sale? A million dollar CRM system. Beautiful. I love that example. So if you look at it men, RCM system. A lot of times what ends up happening is we have companies who are perhaps still using Excel, right? There are many b2b companies till today which is extremely shocking how you choose that option who have people manually Putting an update on a spreadsheet. Now you might have, for example, and I actually had a client who has had this example. So I'm telling you from experience, they had a specific client in Thailand, who was selling farm equipments. So for them, they were thinking, you know, we're old, we're an old fashioned company, we don't have to have a CRM, and also a CRM that you can actually tap into a bit on your phone, as you're on the move, that's too complicated for our people. And a CRM that connects to the marketing has to cover other people. So even though it would make their lives easier, and require them to come back report by piece of paper, you know, a big spreadsheet, there is a massive thing is like, Oh, my company is not technically friendly. Or my company is going to have a hard time with change management, because people don't want to change to having technology in our company. And we see that at a macro level, because you end up having like, not one person, doubt you have huge amount of doubts. So we end up being afraid of change. And we use that as examples of why it won't work for us. And the problem is, is when you are like trying to sell someone an idea, if you underestimate their feeling of that on that collective level, like a CRM for the farmers in Thailand, and say, Oh, I'll work for you, the other person is like, No, it isn't, and then you lose the sale, because you haven't helped them understand that I'm gonna hold your hand as we transform from an old fashioned Excel company, to a pharma company of the future. And that whole notion of helping them transition and holding them and being grateful for them, and patient with them, is what will help you get that sale, versus being under considerate. And pushing someone for something where you may get them as a client, but you won't keep them as a client. Because at any point of time, they still haven't been able to buy and it would be possible for them. And for the organization. What if, sorry, well, I like that the way Yasmin works, when she's when she's doing this, because I've been privileged enough to have worked with her in several different ways. On it, is to be she introduces the concept of, instead of a sale being a push at and and, you know, you know, yes, it will work for you, which is in essence, me putting my viewpoint in dominating the other, the other person is having the empathy of understanding of the doubts and concerns that that person will have, and creating a space for them to step into another possibility, which is where then the the point of the story is ours to give people that space to see see where they could be in the possibilities for themselves. So it's a, it's quite a different dynamic. But the starting point is acknowledging that there's going to be doubts, doubts in them looking at us and doubts and who they are, and their ability to take on the journey. Yeah, now, it's really funny that I use that example that you could speak to, and that wasn't planned at all. So that's that was kind of cool, because I used to work with the CRM team at Microsoft. And there was some really interesting things going on. But the ability to understand where the customer is right now, you know, the Thai farmer, right? Well, you know, that. And, you know, 10 years ago, the Thai farmers didn't necessarily have mobile phones, now everyone's got one. But 10 years ago, I think we forget, especially in Asia, developing markets around Asia, especially in the jobs like farming, that technology wasn't in people's hands. So that's all part of the transition. But understanding where the people are the not that, not the person who's going to sign the check, the people are going to use the technology, because of course, then I saw examples where they didn't do the right job. Now, I'm not talking about the guys I work with. But there was one fantastic example where the guy was working with one backer customer that he lost, because the company that went in, didn't do the right job and make the technology successful with the customer. So then they eventually came back to him and said, You can help us do this. So actually, it wasn't selling. It was his ability to make the technology successful. That was that was what the business actually needed. So consultative selling, right, which is supposedly being you know, it's been positioned for the last sort of four or five years. That's the selling of the future. But we're still it's still not happening, but because the idea of sales is still so traditional, right? And the reason why and this is something I found very strongly for is sometimes a sale is a little bit longer, because you have to attend to it if someone is someone's needs. And I give you an example of this. I did my degree in psychology, we did a class on health psychology. And in that class we talked about when you go to a doctor, how much time you have until you feel comfortable to speak to a doctor Tell after your problem and get the results. And according to studies, they found that there's 22 minutes when you go and see a doctor to feel that level of comfort. Now today, when we go into a doctor's meeting, if you're lucky, you get three minutes. It's because we have so much demand on doctors and not enough positions right in the market. So the issue that wasn't happening in the sales world is because of the same thing we're trying to squeeze people or targets, that may not happen in 90 days, it might happen in like six months. But because it's so pushed for that coordinate target, people can't have that space to, to give their client a space to listen. And as a result of that, you end up having quick sales, and very pushy tactics, because people have targets submit to them to hit, or they'll lose their jobs. And for me, I understand both sides of the spectrum, and I get it, you have to also have those targets. But if you want to become that partner of the future, you need to also have that space to make someone feel comfortable, because it might take you six months to 18 months to get that client. But if you've done that work correctly, you have a client for life, because you've helped them overcome that level of doubt that if it was possible for them, and you've helped them had that when it becomes very hard for them to shift to somebody else who was looking for that quick return. And who transaction. Did you say tenacious question I did. Did. So the thing is what I found in working with organizations large and small, and people from all different shapes of professions and businesses, and life, none of us like being told what to do. So if we it's just one of those things, we didn't like it when our parents told us what to do. And as adults, we still don't like it. Not we're not one of those things that seems to change as we as we get older. But if we take the time, and this is what I like about what yes minutes talking about about that, oh doubt. Like for example, yes, if we give people the space to walk into, it's not about giving them a one sided point of view, sometimes it's about giving them a multi, multi dimensional point of view or the space to explore that, for them to go, you know what I like that other position better. So for example, yesterday, I was speaking with a group of executives on green site on the responsibilities company directors have, and to some of the very, and I'm not going to go into in depth here, because that's not the point of this conversation. But we've been talking very factually about the different sorts of legal responsibilities that directors could be facing the risks and therefore them as leaders in the businesses some of the things they might like to be talking about. And then afterwards, I had a one on one with one of the women in the room. And she asked a particular question, I said, Look, you need to also appreciate the people who are listening to you, in the industry you're in, when you talk about this, they're going to be worried about what whether they still have a job in a few months, or in a year or two. So they're listening to you with fear for their family for a roof over their head for food on the table for this kids, kids school fees. And if you don't aware of that you can't connect to help them move forward. And to me the sense of understanding where people are, you know, yes, meaning talks about the doubt that afterwards, she said that to the entire group, she goes, You know what I realized I need to have more empathy with the other people that I'm talking with. And, you know, that's, that's the piece, it's not about a one sided point of view, or it's often about and it significantly increased level of empathy. But also being aware of if you've got another data set, give them the invitation, or see what else is possible. And sometimes that possibility will be a pain relief. Sometimes it'll be something that's significantly attractive. Yeah. And then, you know, as Andrew is often talking you to have the kindness to honor them as a human being and their ability to make the choice. Yeah. So the other one is, as a seller, how willing is one not to make the sale, even though it might not be beneficial in the long run? And that was, Oh, my God, I can't tell you the amount of times I went into a meeting. And I sort of said, What's the problem you're trying to overcome? And then I said, Well, what I've got to sell isn't right. But I can recommend this right? I find that the every, and sales is not my thing I've done I've done it a few times. I don't really like it, but the best sellers I've ever worked with, all have that approach. You know, and also with social media, you know, by the time you actually get to a meeting with the client. The education has already taken place about the solution you've got to offer and they're just trying to make the final decision. So I think that's sort of shifted the whole sales conversation anyway. But I wouldn't sell, you know, some something that somebody doesn't want right now. But like, if you look at accelerating trust, when you help a client, figure out, if this is the right or the wrong solution for them, you have a different level of like clout, because you are the authority. And I think today's age where people are like not doing that, that takes courage and bravery. And people don't forget that I have still today referrals from people whenever I wrote a number to it, because I said, I don't think this is the right fit for your team. And then they're like, what, I think this might be a better focus area for where you are right now. And that, you know, permission to let them realize, hey, from what you're telling me, this might not be the right course of action, and I'm okay to walk away from money on the table. That is such a respect that somebody has in front of you versus like, hey, I want that right now. Because I don't want to have like a one off client, I want to have clients for a long time. And I'm very grateful to have those clients because I tell them, I tell them, hey, this might be not the right area for you. Or this might not be working out, and can we work together? Can we improve that solution, and so forth. So it does take a lot of bravery. But I think it's also the shift of this very conservative traditional way of how sales was, which was important back in the day because it was designed to knock on people's doors to sell them at their doorstep. And today, we don't that we have a coefficient online today, we have clients that are much more aware and much more educated before you go and meet them. I love the example of the doctor as well, I like I use Doctor analogy in my in how I teach is that when you go and see a doctor for a chronic illness, the patient oftentimes those more than a doctor? Well, it is trends, because they're studying for their damn life. And a doctor is just telling you what, what's the right procedure and so forth, based on his or her limited knowledge. So we need to understand that today. It's a it's a two way conversation. And the more you forget that the more you realize that you're gonna lose out, because somebody else will be selling a different solution maybe even worse than you. Because they understand that they will get that sale. Yeah. So Joe, you're gonna say something? I was I was, you know, I'm struck. By the way this this conversation works for things, I think where people know what they need, and know what they already know what they need to do. And they already sold on the on the idea themselves. And what you're doing is you're matching their internal conversation. Yeah, I would say actually, a big part of that sale is helping them understand what they need. Because oftentimes, when they come to you, they have a rough idea. They don't actually know that. Yeah. 95% of the decisions been made by the time they come to you, Joe, in terms of what what what we're trying to do, I think with with the story of the environment, for instance, right, I think that there's several aspects to it. One is about how this has to come across something that's easy to do. So I'm, I did a talk once for for CPA, Australia. And the name of the talk was what what are those people can learn from conman? Right? Because if you think about a category of salesperson, the very, very best at the con artists are those that basically have sold you something you don't want. And then when they talk to other people about it is they speak of you as a genius, right? The the, the trick that's necessary, I think, is for enough people to misunderstand the problem as an easy problem. To go like, you know, it's, it's, I'll put it this way, like for instance, with with from Andrea's point of view, it's easy to be environmentally friendly. It is easy to be environmentally friendly. But for a lot of people, it's not, you feel like it's an impossible task, you feel that so you feel the guilt, the challenge that you feel there's a lot of contradiction. You think about being in a very, very environmentally friendly, and you think like I really love meat, I drive a car, you know, I've got I've got, you know, all kinds of things that make you a bad person, even from this idea that you think of what you want to do. And there's a I think there has to be a way for it to come across like it's really easy to be environmentally friendly. We can we can figure this out. And I think once and the reason why I'm thinking this process true is is you know, once someone is sold an idea and they turn themselves that they're now not pushing on the way out that they don't facing you and pushing this way they're actually on the inside pushing in it On the inside pushing out, they begin to sell themselves, they begin to do the things that they need to do, because they've now stated that they are on the side of it, and they want to do something about that. Right. So, like for, I think, for Joanna view, you've probably been a situation where the many corporates will go, like, Ah, it's just can't be done. It's too many too many sacrifices and this and that. But if they can flip around and go, like, you know, there's so many advantages, and it's actually quite easy to do, suddenly, they begin to brainstorm on that side of it, rather than figuring out the ways it can be done. So I think there is the, there is room for the environmental con artist, so to speak, the benevolent con artist is going in there to convince everyone that, you know, it's actually a lot easier than then we're doing it that the people who make it look like this huge struggle, maybe acting, and it should be just seen as a more normal thing to do, it's actually easier than we think. I think if we can figure out a way for people to not feel, did not feel paralyzed by the stuff that they do, which is wrong, so that they can do the stuff that is going to help as well, at the same time, you'll get more than I think what happens now there's a lot of stuff which holds us back or that I, you know, like, like, it's going to be an uncomfortable conversation for me to have because I'm still doing this. And if you can get past that and go like, you know what, I am still going to recycle while I have a steak for dinner. You know, that's gonna be okay. We need billions of people but acting imperfectly, you know, because the system is not in place to support a green life like buying shampoo. You can't buy sustainable shampoo, other than, you know, stuff. That's just crap. So, you know, like, you know, what do you do, right? So you just got to, we just need billions reacting and not judging each other. Like, I'm, I'm going to be flying soon. Right? You know, and people are gonna go, you shouldn't be flying? Well, well, I, you know, I've done everything I can not to fly. I've said no to flights. For business meetings, I said that we do it virtually. I'm limiting it as much as I can. But I can't not fly. But the criminal there isn't me. It's the aerospace industry that's been raking in the billions of dollars and selling more and more and more planes and not designing sustainable planes. So they need to get to work so that we can travel sustainably because I live in Thailand. My family live in Australia, Steve's family live in the UK. And we need to see each other because we haven't seen each other for three years. Right? So I that that guilt message is wrong. And you know, I eat red meat? Not very often, but I do. I try and get it from Thailand to make sure I'm not shipping something in from around the world. You know, none of us are perfect. None of us. Joanna, you were saying. I was gonna say any entrepreneurs listening right now there's an opportunity in the shampoo space. This is a thing. It's one of the supermarket's need to change, right? Yeah, but but so the thing is, instead of diving in and going back, but but every time we have a conversation where the buck comes in, we're putting the block, if instead we see it, and we go, okay, that's not that opportunity for someone to solve a problem over there. Okay, how do we get the space in the shelves so we can get there. Now, it may be that entrepreneurially, there's a whole bunch of products that get developed or iterated to be at merchandise level quality, ie, you know, we can wash our hair and it comes back out and it's feeling great and good. And then you go and take it to some of the big companies who have the distribution. And say, here we have it, how do we partner up? One of the things that I see happening as one of the unexpected groundswells in the over the next decade of business is businesses saying we have to partner differently and solve problems differently and create opportunities differently. And those that do are the ones that are going to come out ahead in the same way that those companies that adopted it and digitization back 15 years ago, tended to be in a far better space than those who are slower to the game. Those pick up these practices, they're not going to get it all right, they're going to get things wrong, but they're going to be further ahead than those that don't so it's the here's Andrea here, the bottling go how's it solve rather than the to me it's okay, so the supermarket example right? Every single time I walk into a supermarket I feel this rage, right and it's not about getting a bit of space for some sustainable shampoo. It's about transforming the entire supermarket and the supply chain. So you know when I go in, I take my kind of deodorant. There's a tank which it goes a hole into my can I put it in I feel the can app and I pay for that. So that I can use my God when I get home, you know, it needs to complete an on a transformation of the industry. And it I have not seen it anyway, you get the refill shops in Singapore, which are very high end. But as a mainstream, like every single person walking into a shop to buy stuff, the it's practically has been unchanged. And in fact, if anything, it's gotten worse, you know, you go into the seven elevens. Here, you can buy these single use sort of beauty products, this big ol in plastic, how the hell did that ever happen? All these top brands, they're getting worse. They're not actually getting better. So that so for me, it's you know, when you say the bat is, I know, but I'm not the person that's going to evolve. That's going to solve redesigning supermarkets and the supply chain. And you know, how we buy products? I'm not that person. But I want it done. Gentlemen, yeah. So I've asked the right question, but I'm not the person to solve it. I need the industry to solve it. Because systemic change is the only thing that's going to change, what we need to have changed, right? A few changes. If we went and wiped out what would help and what would be a useful way of living your life, you have basically, Steve Jobs when he was going through the phase when he wasn't having showers and going around bare feet, and smelling bad. There are some things which are, you know, really good for the environment, but we don't generally like it as much, right? I mean, that's something that that we have to kind of grapple with as well. And that's always going to be the challenge. And what needs to happen is we need to we need to market that alternative. That's the thing that has to happen, it just kind of occurred to someone. And so like what's happened with, with with appearing without makeup now in magazines, are having to have notices that say, This is a photo retouched image, those kinds of things. It had to come from a kind of marketing, whether it was an intentional move by someone or it became a movement, that that arose from, from a consciousness rising. It had the it had to be, I think, actively sort of pushed and actively made fashionable. So I think you have all these people in throughout history who have pushed environmental concerns, animal rights concerns, and some people have been successful, because they've done it in a way which is kind of you know, it kind of worked. You have you have different levels of success, you have either the Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell's and or Bob Dylan, right, they all have their different way, or different levels of success with the communication that they were able to use. That's, that's the kind of stuff I always talk about art, it's going to be a very significant part of solving the world's problems. I think it really is up to the artists, I mean, you know, you really have to figure out and for most, most, most people who have large concerns about the world actually think about it from a very intellectual perspective. They're thinking about it from the facts from the data and all that kind of stuff, right? But what causes the action is going to be the feeling, you have to get that feeling going, you have to have people feeling that they have to do something, and then they'll do something I like nice is just asking the question you had how to convince industry and sustain growth and positive change how to achieve that. So a classic example is Coca Cola came out a couple years ago and said, you know, the biggest single use plastic polluter in the world, right? So stop putting coke in plastic bottles. It seems pretty simple. And then they're like, but but our customers like that coke in plastic bottles. I don't care. Because those plastic bottles are ending up in the ocean, and they're ending up on our beach. And we've got 1000s of people out every weekend cleaning up cleaning up this crap that has nowhere to go apart from turning being turned into Christmas decorations for the precious precious plastic machines, right? And it's just it's like this, this is broken cycle. And the fast moving consumer goods, I say, you know, I've got lots of friends who are really senior, and they're sending out all these sustainability messages. But there's still the same products on the shelf. So I don't What are you doing? What are you doing? That's different, you know, and today's question, I mean, the only those businesses and those industries have to come together and say, right, okay, we're not getting this right. So what are we going to do about it? You know, so I think what are the ways that we can fix this, we as individuals can not fix this. We can try and shop sustainably we can try. That's what you were talking about earlier, the whole guilt, but the individual guilt and you know, the carbon footprint as marketing to make us feel guilty. We can't change this. Like we need to be able to walk out into the world We can reduce our impact and reduce our lifestyle and reduce what we buy and eat less meat, red meat and all that sort of stuff. But when when the basic things when we go out into the world remain unchanged, how we have to work so much harder. And it's so much more expensive. And people have got less money now than they've had. You know, it's like, it's like, the system isn't supporting us changing. We're trying to drive the change, but the system needs to change so that we can be part of that, you know, so sorry, yeah. Bring on sustainable planes. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, but Airbus isn't expected to do that until 2030. You know, I used to work with aerospace engineers, the smartest people in the world, what the hell have they been doing for the last 20 years? Honestly, what have they been doing? They could do anything. They are, it's the top grade to get into university is an aerospace engineer. They're brilliant. What have they been doing? While they've been run by companies like Boeing, who are all about making profits, you know, and then moving their headquarters moving away from their engineering roots to, to the, you know, being a financial sort of focus company, right? You know, you can see it, it's all it's all there in front of us. We've just got our eye off the ball completely, but you know, 2030s So what are we supposed to do? We all gonna start flying, that'd be the best thing. But look at where it look at us. We live. I mean, your family's probably close. But our families are a long way away. I mean, any you just had to make a rush to Tassie for your, for your stepdad. Right. You know, like, you know, certainly happens to our parents, we gotta go, we gotta get on a plane. But you know, and all these business, people are jumping back on planes and flying everywhere. And you're like, really, you know, your company's not the least minimizing that bit? Because that's a good way to get your numbers down, you know? So here's the thing, right? I mean, the, if we look across business, we want you want to have a world where businesses instead of money is the most important thing, something else is the most important thing that's not going to happen, right? We have well, you do have that, Joe, you you have the B Corp movement, where the money as well as impact, and what is its growing? I'm not saying I'm not saying that. There's nobody who wants to do something and prioritize something else. But in terms of in terms of business in general, right. It's even even if someone is saying that we put something else above all that as a company, essentially its own survival and all that it's going to be it's going to be whatever, whatever is the most important thing in terms of commerce. And I think that happens to be money. But I think what we're looking at now is what is close to that in terms of the second level, just just next to that. And I there's no doubt in my mind that leaders know something needs to be done. But what leaders are going to do is they're going to do what is the most viable, or the easiest thing that can be done. And that's unfortunately, the way how human beings tend to do it, right? We, we don't always we have a big problem. We don't say, Okay, let's, let's solve this in the most difficult way, we know how, you know, because if you think about if you think about the environment as a large problem, it is difficult to solve, right? If Airbus wants to solve this problem, it can do the difficult thing and say, scrap oil production, we're gonna we're gonna not produce a single planes in the next five years. And the first thing that's gonna come up next is going to be an environmentally friendly plane, they can do that. But it's the hard thing to do. Right? So what's the next easiest thing to do? I'll tell you about the plane, we're going to we're going to produce in 15 or five years, right, that's, that's the next best thing. We are committed to the environment, we want to do something about the future, we're working towards it, you know, and that's the next best thing that they can do at this point right now without hurting this really essential thing that the company has to do from day to day, write it, but in the meantime, the planes are selling in their lifetime will release, like billions worth of emissions, you know, and that's already in, right. So there was an interest. There's an interesting article called, titled, Why bankers close their ears for the climate nut jobs, talking about the end of the world. And obviously, this goes back to that HSBC commentary of the, you know, the head of responsible banking. But basically what this is saying, is, people in the financial industry, so the central bankers as well do not understand the difference between a crisis and a collapse. Or if they do in theory, they're too constrained by established ways of thinking to act on their knowledge. So, you know, inflation, you know, COVID, Russia, militarism, the world will suffer loss and damage, but from an economic point of view, there's another side that will eventually get to, you know, will pop will, you know, we'll get past it right. But from a collapse perspective, which is basically what the climate scientist says Planning has begun. They don't know how to do that. They don't know how to think about that. They don't know. You know, they don't know how to prepare for that. So there's no, you know, there are no climactic equivalence of interest rate rises or furlough payments to return us to a tolerable equilibrium. So I found that a really, there's, there's, there's mindsets in industries around the world, and they don't know how to shift. You know, and so something like your book, Anna, that has the potential to help people just make that shift. They can't, you know, because I'm Anna, and I years ago, I sat down, and both of us were talking about what we were seeing. And, you know, I remember one thing I said about the global economy, Anna, you were like, Whoa, you really see that? Because when you talk about the the economy job, the economy is what is creating the problem? Yep. So, you know, for years, I've said we have to destroy the global economy. Yeah. And I think what the problem sometimes is also, is that, okay, we need to, we do need to go in the other direction, right. But we still have the same, we sometimes we're stuck in the same vehicle for now. Right? So using a car analogy, probably the worst thing to train us for, for an environmental issue, when you want to go from fifth gear and going down 120 kilometers an hour in the wrong direction to reverse, you can't, you can't slam it into reverse, right, we have to go through that gearbox out. We have to go through that process so that we get to the point where we slow down and then we can get into get ourselves into reverse. And even then, should we use a clutch so that it doesn't just stall? So that it's one of these horrible things that yeah, the what we need to do is now, but can you do it right now? I mean, you know, I mean, it would just say, Yeah, you know, what we should not care about jobs and economies or whatever it is, the survival of the human race is much more important. Airbus should not produce another environmentally unfriendly vehicle forever, because it should start right now. Because we know it's bad for the environment. But they've got the kind of down, they have to ship down through the years, they have to slow it down, they have to get to the point where they can get into the into the next phase where, you know, we're going to be able to fly and not have that kind of negative impact. It's it's just the way, you know, you know, I'm totally with you, Joe. But we miss that chance, you know, in the 80s. When I one of the pieces is Jimmy Carter. Okay, I understand, I don't, I don't see the visibility of or I'm not flying, or else, then there'll be no crossbreeding of ideas. So I understand the frustration. But like, I look at you, for example, Andrea, you would have met your husband, like you will have your beautiful kids. Like, it's all these things that like, I can't visualize that. And I understand the frustration. But there's also a limitation and that thinking as well, I need to drop off. It's been a wonderful conversation. I hope that you guys have a rest of the wonderful day. And lots of love. Bye, guys. Thanks for joining us. All right. Are you gonna recognize, Joe, that point that you were just making like, yes, absolutely. We can't do it. Right. But we decide on he decides. And the decision has been made as we speak. And that's where we are. And, you know, the scientists are talking about collapse. You're looking at we're looking at the temperatures, you know, the Europeans are getting hammered, you know, the stories that are coming out of some of those parts of Europe are just horrendous. Famine for the next decade. I mean, we are in that. So we decide, or nature decides. And so what I'm what I'm suggesting, actually is, I mean, is it gonna get worse it is gonna I think you're right about that as it's gonna get worse. But what I what I don't, maybe what I am hoping we're doing is we've begun at least, to change that direction as it were, because the like, like the oil tanker another bad metaphor to use in the show about this. When you when you change that, that cause of an oil tanker, it's gonna keep going in that direction for quite a long time, before it has any chance of coming around, right? That's the job. That's one of the reasons why and when it comes to oil tanking, they say the invention of the trim tab was the key thing. So I personally find that the metaphors that sound like we have to drop the entire system and swap to it and swap like it's a hard stop. I'm talking about the metaphor as opposed to the reality that the economic structures we've had historically are not serving a sustainable future and therefore a forward leaning. New structure is required. Am I fully fully on board on that one. But what I've noticed is that every time people see it as being too big and too hard, they stop and they go, let me go and focus on something else. Yep. And so that's that's kind of the thing, right? I mean, more and more of the cases coming for the the case is being made for me for terrorism, right. I mean, it's like it seems to be, it seems to be, that would be one of the ways so for me what I what I what I like to use as an idea, right, is I find that when I'm when I'm driving, I always find people spend too much time high, putting high beams and hitting the horn. I always talk about let's do more driving as in as in like, let's, let's steer. Let's move. Let's try and make the move. Let's, if things are going as they are right now, how do we move faster out of this? Instead of staying in the in the mire, and trying to figure out this thing as it is right now? No, let's change course, let's try and move as quickly as we can. But realize there's still going to be some movement. And sometimes Yep, some things are gonna you're gonna hit some things on the way out. Not all of us are going to make it through this, this thing, but it's a big, it's a big accident. It's ahead of us. It's you know, we've been traveling at speed, we're all going in that direction. We've all got to do some kind of steering, some of us are going to make it out and some of us aren't. That's that's kind of where we are, you know. So the bigger, bolder, private decisions that we make today. mean, more people will have a chance. Right? And, like, you guys, I know I get it, right. I know. I know what I'm saying and how extreme it is. But from everything I've seen and you know, today said collapse by 2035 Yet, you know, yeah, it's gonna be between now and 2035. It's going to be crappier and crappier. And crappier. And crappier. And? And yeah, that's, that's, that's, I see this, like, the way we look at 911. Right, you think about what happened, then you think about the collapse of the Twin Towers, and yes, collapse, right. But that wasn't the end of the story. That's the, that's the thing that I, that I, that I think we have to think about. Because we're gonna go, we're gonna go through this, we're gonna get to a patch, where it's going to be terrible. We're going to hear some terrible stories in the next few years, we're going to hear about death and famine at a scale that it's going to be very uncomfortable to think of today. But we'll be normal in five years, or 10 years time. And then, hopefully, we're in where our trajectory is moving away from there, where we're going to be in that place where we're moving away from famine, away from unsustainable things. Because, again, we got there and realize, you know, what, it's not where we want to be. Well, we either shrink our lives or our ability to live on this planet will shrink, and you've got to hope you've got why don't we just get one more question. It's really 20 past that. I'm running late. So all right, I need I need to finish up. Thanks. I wish I wish you all it's been absolutely lovely. And thank you for including me in the season finale. Yes. It is absolutely glorious. And next time, I'll know to add an extra half hour on to the meeting time. Where it's gonna go. Absolutely gorgeous. Wonderful next season. Yeah, exactly. All right. Jake, what's keeping you distracted? I'm just I'm just on Netflix trying to remember the name of my my distraction? There it is. Yeah. You found it. You got yours? Yes, I do. Yeah. All right. I turned on Disney plus for a change. And so what happens is, I know that different channels, different platforms. So like building up in the number of shows that may have so on Disney plus, I finally let them I let them build up five shows. And I watch all five of Obi Wan Kenobi. And there is still of course gonna be a six. Right? And I also was very curious about the launch of a new, a new series new Marvel series, which features a brown main character so and I saw interviews with her and Indian girl, Pakistani. So she's not only brown, she's also Muslim. And it's a superhero. And she's and she's a girl. Right? So all of the things that Miss Marvel, and the first two episodes have dropped, and there is a there is a kind of great feeling about the show, I just want to recommend it as as a as a feel good superhero show built around, you know, a teenage star. So it's a little bit like if you want to think about it, a little bit like spider man, but even less serious than that. If you can imagine that. And I think that's something that should be supported. So I can be successful, so that they can do more things like that. Right? Okay, so my, my, my new love affair is called God's favorite idiot. And it's on Netflix, and it stars Melissa McCarthy. And it took me five episodes to go. Okay, this is great. And the reason it didn't is because for me comedy is important, right? So but it's got to be intelligent. And some people love it from the beginning. But it just wasn't quite working for me. And by Episode Five, I'm like, Okay, right. Yeah, beautiful. So, why I love it so much is there's that the bad people. There's the naive people. And then there's all the ordinary people in the middle just going oh my god, why do we have to put up with these besides people? So it was kind of it's kind of like a tongue in cheek but it's representative of of the of our global society and how bloody ridiculous we all are. Magnus Urbanski is God. There's angels and the devil. It's just that the way they speak to each other, you know, being appropriate in the office, the way you speak to each other, all that sort of stuff, right? It just, it takes the piss out of everything. And because it takes the piss out of everything, I think it will be more successful because you know, don't look out. It was bagging one side, or is this just bags everyone? And I think it's worth watching just for that because we are all ridiculous. It sounds it sounds a little bit like a Monty Python series, actually. Multivitamins, always taking these little snippets of everything and all the ridiculous stuff put together. This one This one sounds like they've taken one idea and said, Let's make minor sounds of it. Because what what I'm impressed by actually is how much time you gave it to get to the point where you thought, Oh, yes, this is okay. five episodes. Yeah, Melissa McCarthy. I love her. I think she's brilliant. So yeah, like it's got to be and some of the jokes are really funny. But it just wasn't gelling. So I definitely recommend that God's favorite idiot. So I'm sure we'll talk about at some time. So let's wrap up. Joe, it's been awesome with. That's when we come back in September, where it's gonna be good to have a break from it, because it does take a lot out right, just sort of doing some just talking about this stuff and staying on top of it all the time, which I'll keep doing anyway. But it's been it's been a pleasure with Ms. Tim. It's been awesome. All the guests that we've had, and people have wanted to come and join us and just talk about the stuff that matters. And we appreciate everyone tuning in. And a lot of people do it after so, yeah, thank you. Well, I want to I want to say a big thank you to you. Because you know, for me, I my attention goes to wherever someone calls for my attention. And what you've been doing is you've been regularly calling my attention to this. And it's our show up for this. And as our show lengths have been increasing over the time, and I think it's testimony to this is that we have a lot to say about a lot of things, right? So much for giving me a weekly outlet, I think you've given a bit of a valve a bit of a release, so that my wife doesn't have to deal with this stuff in my head as well. This has been really good. And really, for those people who've been following and listening in on and wondering what's all this about, I mean, the idea really, is to think a little bit further than what you might normally think about, I think that the world today is just stuck in the I heard this, and I'm gonna borrow that and use that, right, they don't go into that next phase, which is like I heard this. And I also heard that, and then now I'm going to have a think about all these things, and I'm going to come up with my own idea. And then before I say something to somebody else, I want to find out if any of these things were really true, you know, that sort of thing. I'm hoping for more of that. And I wrote something on my on my diary, which has been in our portfolio for four months now. And it's about you know, something that I wanted to get going, right? And it was because I because I don't have enough sleep like I keep forgetting but basically I said save. Here you go save intellect, you know, as in save the world save intellect. And I like absolutely myself, I need to do something about that I need to do something about that do some kind of a show or program. And this is actually it. This is this is actually the show that is where I'm doing I think as much of that as I can, on a weekly basis. I'm trying to get people to think a little bit, you know, as I say something, you go like, Oh, right, you know, and sometimes, you know, it's sometimes requires people to push against what is a popular view? Because there is truth in everything. There is truth even on the site. You don't want to see something there. Yeah, yeah. But that's, that's the thing I've been saying for a really long time. We just need to think we need to get people thinking. People aren't thinking we're walking through life. And we're just, we're existing, but we're not thinking and it's so important, but huge thank you to you know, there's a few people that always check in. So obviously, Denise has been having a great, great chat with us here in the comments. We can't put him up. But it's been awesome. You know, Steve watches every single episode, my husband, and he was on it last week. Clinton in Melbourne, he's always checking in, and he, he made a decision that he just wanted to, he wanted to learn more, he wanted to listen more, and he wanted to think more. So, you know, that's great. And, you know, there's other people, but there's just people have been reaching out to me privately, and, you know, we sort of see, you know, 200, sort of people watching it. And, you know, yeah, we need to be thinking more. So we will see you when we come back in September. We're going to try and work out a way of getting it structured so that we can shrink it. But, you know, like this half the half day, news items that I wanted to discuss, we didn't have time to discuss because you never know which area we're going to focus on based on who's joining the conversation. So we say thank you to everyone for being with us. And we'll see you when we're all back from holidays, hopefully feeling a little bit more refreshed and alive. All right. See, you said take care