The Know Show – theme - is this the answer for our fossil fuel challenge?

Welcome to The Know Show. Join Andrea T Edwards and Joe Augustin this week as we review the news that’s been capturing attention around the world. We’re also excited to welcome two very special guests, Dr David Ko and Richard Busellato, co-authors of The Unsustainable Truth: How investing for the future is destroying the planet and what to do about it. We’re also premiering their Transformational Ownership Proposal – you don’t want to miss this one!

David and Richard have come up with a solution for the fossil fuel industry, and it’s called Transformational Ownership.  Both former investment bankers, they saw that we have $100 trillion invested around the globe – which is more than the size of the global economy – and yet, the planet can no longer produce enough to keep this growing. Essentially, our savings are killing the planet. 

What can we do about it? We join the movement: ‘Believe in the Impossible’, which calls for a billion people to support investors and businesses, who pledge a trillion dollars so we can put fossil fuels into stewardship. This will create a clear global mandate for global fossil fuel production, it will be guided by climate science, and all profits go back to supporting local projects that the people choose themselves. No one makes money from Transformational Ownership and the planet gets a seat at the table. 

That’s an idea worth hearing, yes? Accepting the planet as an equal partner and working with it, rather than trying to outsmart it.

The Know Show is a Livestream held every Friday, where Andrea T Edwards, Tim Wade and Joe Augustin, and at least one special guest, review the news that’s getting everyone’s attention, as well as perhaps what requires our attention. We’ll talk about what it means to us, the world and we hope to inspire great conversations on the news that matters to all of us. 

The Know Show is based on Andrea T Edwards Weekend Reads, which are published every Saturday on andreatedwards.com, and covers the climate crisis, Covid 19, topical moments in the world, global politics, business, social issues and passion/humor/history. Join us. 

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 Reach out to David and Richard https://rethinkingchoices.com/ 

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

Welcome to the no show. My name is Andrew redwoods. And my name is Joe Augustine and our missing third leg on this particular intellectual stool is Tim Wade, Tim, Tim is taking a shining to further education. So he gets busy with assignments and all kinds of school building stuff. And a lot of it has to do with Friday. So it's supposed to make him a better man, we can't wait to get to see the new and improved Tim 2.0. So nice. He's available. But for now, yes. Welcome to the show. This is, this is the no show. Yeah, and today, I'm sorry, you go, I just gave you the space, but you didn't take it. So I'm gonna go ahead and say what the show is about. This is a show, which is the mission is very simple. If you come to watch the nose show, we spent some time with the no show you hopefully will walk away knowing more, and probably have a perspective that you may not have come in with. We try to go to the left and right, we try to look at different different things from different perspectives. So that's not just the one view that everybody has. It either makes you the most fascinating person or the next dinner, or the most irritating, and sometimes both. We can't provide you with social skills to make it through I'll because certainly give you the content. And today, we've got a super exciting show, I decided it was time to invite two authors. So Dr. David cow and Richard Pistoletto, have written this book called The unsustainable truth. And I interviewed them for a podcast recently. So we're going to bring them in. And here is David. And here is oh, well, I mean, what happened? Are you enjoying it, both of us look at the same time. Here we go. There we go. And I put a green background on just for you guys. But welcome so much, I really appreciate you coming and spending the time. So you've written this book, the unsustainable truth, and it's how investing for the future is destroying the planet and what to do about it. And obviously, you both come from investment bank, banker backgrounds. And you're also launching something today, which is called Transforming transformational ownership. So I want to hand it over to you both just to give everyone a lowdown on what your backgrounds are, and where the book came from. And we'll obviously talk about it in the theme section more, but just you're gonna start David. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, thank you, thank you so much for having us here. And thank you for inviting us, I hope that we will be able to kind of like cover for Tim, in his absence, at least provide the entertainment for everybody. I promise you that, you know, we certainly provide you a lot of things to think about. And he might actually do make you the, you know, the most unpopular person at the dinner party, possibly, but hopefully make you the one that makes them think the most out of it. So Richard and I started basically, we spent about 30 years in investing. And, you know, the basic thing is you said about but why investing, destroying the future is that investing is always trying to circumvent the limits of what our planet is telling us. And we realize this as we're going through, we kept having to look for further and further opportunities that can give us getting double digit returns, everybody wants to put digit returns. And you have to keep stretching out and stretching out. And what the book is fundamentally about is recognition that we've reached the stage genuinely with almost a billion people in the world, many of them becoming wealthy, and many of them aspiring to be so that we all have this ambition or being told to have this ambition to retire. So what the retirement process involves, basically, it's very simple. You try to hold as much wealth as you can while you're while you're working, so that you can spend 20 to 30 years of your life living off it. And here's the challenge for for your friends at the dinner table. What animal plant, can you imagine that does that hoard as much as they can for 2030 years so that you can just simply rest for the remaining 20 per 30 years living off it. And the planet is very poor, trying to provide us with that sort of hoarding resources. And the result of it is actually investing actually ends up destroying the planet. That's but that's fundamentally what we do. We worked for 30 odd years working for pensions and investment funds trying to get the double digit return so we individually can do that. And at the time at this current moment with climate change and what's happening, what you hear of all the policies and approach is essentially the same. It is about how we can still earn double digit returns. Whilst so called fixing the climate. We can't What do you have to do is to put the problem of the climate at the forefront? And then ask, how do you find purpose in your life. And that's how you build hope for the future. So that's the description of where we came from and what we, Richard know very much echoing what David is saying we spent 30 plus years managing investment risk, various institutions, hedge funds, mostly for for pensions, insurance companies and other long term savers. And therein lies also part of the dilemma that when you are in that investment roles, the guiding regulation, you need to adhere to his fiduciary responsibility, and at that forefront sets trying to maximize your return and minimize the costs of that management of the capital. So for any investment manager to acknowledge that you can no longer look at the world through that simple lens of saying I need to maximize my return. Because actually, you're compounding the problems down the road is very, very difficult, and sits at the very heart of this issue that you have to contracting forces. I think most people are really, really aware in the investment world of the problems we're facing. But for them to take the step back and say, You know what, I can no longer for my long term savers afford to take make certain investments because I know, down the road, it will actually lower the return because of what we're doing to the planet is incredibly difficult. Yeah. Is there a, is there a sense within the profession? That it's that people know, the challenge that's coming, but they also, they're struggling with what the solution is? Is that Is that where you have have come in with this message? We had, we were at a conference last week on kind of responsible investing pricing responsibilities, there's international conference, a lot of very eminent investors and investment funds. And the question was asked, How many of you here believe that net zero is the way to go is the right thing to do everybody? And then the next question was, how many of you here believe that net zero is actually achievable? Nobody could add. So So I think that's kind of the essence of, you know, the how the professional investment industry genuinely feel, in a kind of behind closed door conversation, about the challenges they face, the policies, and then the policies and publications they write, and quite different. That's because as an industry, its fiduciary duty, as Richards describing, is to promote investing. And to promote the aspect that actually for its members is doing his best to generate the double digit return it's aiming for. And it itself recognizes fully, the contradictions and the difficulties. But it's under a regulatory structure, which forces it to continue in that way, which is why we left the industry. Because it's very hard to speak frankly, about it is not that people in it don't feel the differences. It's just that when you know, when your day jobs there, your call to do your day job. Yeah, yeah, no, it's just sort of like the World Bank last week made a big announcement about the absolute transformation that needs to go on for it to be effective. And, you know, just some of the big announcements that have been happening, like, I haven't even put it in the list, but the profitability of the fossil fuel industry, you know, Shell's results are excellent results. I mean, incredible profits have been made because of the war. And also, it's sort of binding us into a long term, fossil fuel future. And it, we've just got to step back and look at everything that we've done, and the business and the world that we've created with completely fresh eyes. And I don't know, when I look around it, I feel so many industries just aren't even starting to do that. Was it's not it's not it's not that. I mean, I really feel very strongly that actually, it's not, that's not the way to think about it. You let's take the war, and let's take Europe stance in it. And what Europe saying is, we, you know, we cannot use Russian products, and that unless let's say that that is the right stance to take. So we're not going to do that. So what does that what does Europe do? Is Europe goes and buys oil and gas instead, from other countries, other producers. What's the chain of events that happens is that they now bid up the price of oil and gas and coal. So Sri Lanka goes bankrupt, and fishermen in Sri Lanka, whose entire life livelihoods is based upon being able to get a bee with a bit of fuel, to bring on their their catches, to be able to have the ice that preserves it for a few hours going across is now not viable. And that's entirely because of what Europe is doing. And our oil and gas production hasn't actually decreased the availability we it hasn't substantially changed, but the price has jumped by a huge amount, because Europe is holding it. And it's doing so in the name of virtue. And he's taking that on when the real thing if Europe wants to do this is to say, Saturday afternoon, Sunday afternoons, let's have a lazy Sunday afternoon, let's turn the lights off. We're going to have three hours without power as genuine solidarity with people in Ukraine who are living without the power. And we're doing this so the rest of the world doesn't have to suffer for us to be able to claim that somehow we're better than them. And that's the sort of transformation in thinking we are told to think about how our economics can transform, when in reality, we have to ask, what is living within the limits of our energy means and living it within the limits of our energy? means fundamentally webstart as you know, Richard and I end up in our, in our thinking in our book, is that it's about the dignity of the person. The dignity of the person's dignity of the Sri Lankan fishermen. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Now, you're already very controversial at the dinner party, right. I mean, human human dignity is at the center of what, you know, I I'm most passionate about, you know, sitting in Asia watching the suffering that happened because the economic fallout of COVID, and the wealthy countries not doing what they needed to do to get it under control. So it lasted longer, and the suffering is still very immense. And now we've got a famine rolling around the world. And I don't even think people are paying attention to that. And I'm in Sri Lanka. But you know, we were in Sri Lanka a few years ago, it's a magnificently beautiful country that was moving forward. And you know, now now they are bankrupt, right? So, yeah, but human dignity and putting. So when we say putting nature at the center, I think putting human dignity at the center of how we design our world as well, rather than so much of what of what we take, what we consume, what we buy, is built on the backs of somebody suffering. And that's what really is, it's not the questions, you know, it's really, I mean, it's really kind of scary in that way. I think. I think that you know, we, we, we, we had a conversation a little while back about vitamin C. And is the inefficiencies in Oh, wow, yeah, it's very useful, you need to take your vitamins, and so on, China produces most of the vitamins in the world, over 90% of it. And that's a very simple reason. And it's because to produce vitamins, you need a lot of energy, you're bringing molecules together and bringing molecules together bring takes a lot of energy, it's just something that's very hard to do. So you want to do it at places where energy is really cheap. So you go to a place you tell a place which can use cheap coal to go along and say you produce it so that we can take it and it's not on our hands. And the consequences of a country, which is still trying to transform out of it suffering from kind of pollution associated with the code. And then we actually look to that and say, what you're doing is bad. Yeah. And you know, you shouldn't do it, but give us the veto in place. Yeah. And that's the way in which, as you say, you know, so much of what we do so much of that double digit return, comes on the back of the suffering that other places have. And it's only possible because we keep the wages low, because if we actually raise the wages, we wouldn't be able to get the return. And we, we were at a conference and other another conference when a lady talked about investing in church, sort of China. And she was talking about how China is a middle income country, trying to break out to becoming a wealthy country. And one of the participants were I was talking to one participants at the conference who was asking me what was the middle income country as basically saying in middle income countries, essentially one that's providing the services and goods for the rest for the rich world at a cheap price. And the breaking out to being wealthy country is when they try to become independent. Have that slavery, in effect. Yeah. And we want to make sure that doesn't happen. Because if it did, we won't get out of it to return. And we won't get to retirement. By now, everybody's left at the end of the table has been set, we haven't had the herbs yet people have already begun to feel uncomfortable. The table has been set for the rest of the discussion for later on, because there's a lot more show before we get to the theme of the show. And that's where we actually look at the news as well. So let's, let's get to the news. And with with comments from the sidebar, all means as well. So Andrea, if you can lead us a lie, I saw the list, we have a very, very big list of things that happened today. I'm happy to put most of it aside because this is this is sparking conversation. I knew it would be good. All right. Let's start with lots of news today. So the headline in CNN, Lydia, Lydia Ko praise for talking about period after surprising reporter with honest answer. So she's women's number three golfer in the world. And basically, she had to go off and get some treatment done. And the journalist said, You're right, and she goes, yeah, it's just that time of the month, obviously a key way you'd expect from an intimidating but what I found really interesting about this story was I was talking to a lady called Dr. Susannah Twombly, who's diversity and equality and inclusion expert in cultural intelligence. She's an amazing lady. And one of the things that she said, if we want to get to equality, we start we have to start having open common conversations about women's bodily functions, we have to stop having the taboos around with women's bodily functions. And I thought that was a really interesting perspective. So when this story broke, and it got very positive responses from around the world. So it also preceded another story about women's bodily autonomy, which, of course, was the the leaking of the Supreme Court's that they're going to basically overturn Roe versus Wade. We've talked about the abortion argument. I know everyone's got an opinion about abortion, one way or another. This This, to me, the conversation is always it's a human right. If we allow this to happen, I can expect in America that the right for the LGBT IQ community to be married will be overturned, because that won't be in the original Constitution either. So we've got this guy Alito, Justice Samuel Alito, who's the lead author. And basically what he says is he argues that the 1973 abortion rights or the Roe vs. Wade, was an ill conceived and deeply flawed decision that invented a right mentioned nowhere in the Constitution, and unwisely sought to wrench the contentious issue away from the political branches of government. So listen, I've recommended my weekend reads a few articles. I really do recommend reading this, but in the New Yorker is an article called of course the Constitution has nothing to say about abortion. So just give me a minute to sort of capture this because I thought it was really sort of summarized it. There is no mention of the procedure in a 4000 word document crafted by 55 men in 1787. And this seems to be a surprise to Samuel Alito. But as it happens, there is also nothing at all in that document which sets out fundamental fundamental law about pregnancy uteruses, vaginas, fetuses, placentas, menstrual blood breasts, or breast milk. There was nothing in that document about women at all, most consequentially, there is nothing in that document, or in the circumstances under which it was written. That suggests its authors imagine women as part of the clinical community, embraced by the phrase, we the people. And it basically finishes with legally, most women did not exist as persons. So we've all seen the conversation. One thing I want to really encourage is, even though I don't typically want to get involved in the domestic issues of the US, because that's that's their stuff. We are weak, but we do know that these sorts of things ricochet around the world, we've seen it with the war against drugs. And you know, a lot of people are seeing this as a war against women. But get involved men and women speak up, because we do need to protect protect the rights because what happens here is women do continue to get abortions in dangerous circumstances. The poorest women are always the one impacted. The government is nowhere once the child is born, so the idea that they're going to be that they're protecting life is always bullshit to me. But this is a big issue and we need to speak up about it. So anyway, handing it over to you guys. Any thoughts? Wow. Awesome. People have moved from one part of the room now to this part of the room and they went either seriously guys, I had a shower before I came to dinner. I think us legislation and the rest of it, there are, like you said, some serious domestic issues which are best left to themselves to sort out. For me, at the very heart of all this sets, what you are essentially laying out this was a document scripted, you know, 250 years ago, by man only. And it was a very, very different place than it is today. And my deepest concern with regard to the US Constitution is properly a second amendment, you know, in in 1780, of course, you needed to carry a gun, you could run into Gresley in most places, when you when you left, wherever you were going, how you can have the right to bear arms today is completely alien to me, what kind of threat are you exposing yourself to and I think, with abortion, it's clearly it's different, obviously, but it's the same, you need the law to move with the times, and you cannot be so rigid in your interpretation of what was scraped. And in many ways, it's a phenomenal document how they have thought about the whole political situation, just get someone to come up with new amendments that actually have moved with the times. You know, Switzerland, I think women got the right to vote in 1971 or something. It's, it's completely crazy. So how you get round that legally from from the kind of very rigid Supreme Court's view of how things should be interpreted. best left to the Americans, I guess. But really, you have come to the point because you are affecting other countries. And in many, many ways, we I think you just need the law to move with the times and sit down with the best legal brains you have in the country and draft the 15th and the 25th. And the 35th Amendment, that actually encompasses the fact that 2022 is a very different place than 1776. You know, it's just accept that we are facing completely different issues than the founding fathers did. Just from an environment perspective, we need to have less children, right. So it's not, it's not a positive step, just from that perspective. It's not and people don't like talking about it, but it's true. Well, I'd like to throw that, that Risley, that you were talking about running around right into the room, by bringing religion back into this actually such you sort of give a kind of religious rights in America. Yeah. And, and, you know, I am Catholic, and I go to church, I do all those things. And I'm actually, I think my children considers me as kind of quite, quite excessively religious. And there's this thing that's always said about, you know, abortion is to believe in the sanctity of life, and I believe in the sanctity of life starts from inception. I also believe that the sanctity of life continues after birth, and the woman sanctity of life, is also present. And, and here you have a situation and our life is full of these situations, where there is no clear identity to say, you know, you should do this, and that won't contradict with that. So you have the woman who is a person with dignity, that we should respect in. And you have an unborn child, who you think you need to protect, but you cannot do that, at the expense of your attention to the woman to the mother. And it is wrong to think of the sanctity of life as somehow something that one life is more important than another life. And when you go into this, and you are often involved with a lot of sort of activities at church with sort of with with young teenagers, in part of their part of the formation and so on, in that one of the elements about it is that the true sense of kind of how your faith works with you is that you are guided you you We believe in God with with the Holy Spirit guiding us along and our choices are not do not contradict And here you have a situation where you have a woman who may or may not wish to have an abortion, who circumstances as you describe an injury is sort of different than difficult or, or favorable, whatever it is. And you have to start from saying, Well, what is your point of interaction with the person? And how do you then go forward with the person? So if it is a situation where you go, and the woman says, Look, I can't really afford to have this child, it's just too much for me. How much are you willing to think of what your role is to that in that way. And in doing so, and it goes back to the comment I made earlier about roughing gas and Europe in that way, am I willing to actually take the app slow my own path, in order to be able to provide you with a space for you to have yours. And what this law does is it takes that ball away, what this attempt to revert it about is a ticket or away, the basic fundamental element of dignity is the ability for a person to make their own choice, whether it's a good choice, or a bad choice, that they have the dignity to be able to make their choice. Yeah. And if you don't do that, you are not actually respecting the sanctity of life in that way. And, and that's very, very important, very, very fundamental. And as to as to the fact that US does this and what it means for the rest of the world. And this goes down to our fossil fuel situation, everything else, is quite simply this, just because someone else does the wrong thing that should not change you from the person that you can be. And so the rest of the world does not need to revert it, their own perception of it, and actually can stand up and give themselves as the examples to the Americans and say, you know, you've got a wrong here. You know, your domestic affairs, actually, America is a country where it's not, it's really very involved in getting itself into other people's affairs. Yeah, that's always fun. So and it's done so kind of economically. And it did. So you know, in kind of like, in the gunboats in within Asia, in his past history, and its economic development. Currently, everything that it does is about getting itself into other people's affairs. Now the rest of the world can stand there and be there to say, you're assisting where you we've all heard this thing about, if someone's, you know, turn the other cheek, the essence of turning the other cheek, is that another person's bad action should not change you from being a better person that you can be. And this is a situation where the rest of the world has a chance to demonstrate that people are now returning here, you're saying to get their drinks? Down? Can we can we quickly stop the order so that we can get? So I was I was listening to some commentary the other day, and he said, America's probably the only country where it's part of that ethos to believe that they are the world's policemen, that somehow that that became the thing that they believed. And I'm not totally against the idea in the sense that I think, you know, in every, in every group, in every kind of gathering with a there's kind of a natural, sometimes leadership that comes up as well, you know, someone ends up being the person who will get the get the barbecue going. Someone goes gets the drinks, and someone will will will be the one to calm everyone down. If someone's having a bit of a an argument, or whatever it is. So I'm not I'm not totally against the idea of having, you know, like, like a country, maybe like a proxy for a person who takes that role. But I think that the challenge is the the moral, right, or the moral license to be that person is not, I don't think America has done at least in more recent times, all it has to maintain and retain that moral high ground. If anything that just that just a louder voice. They have very big guns, and they're very loud. Yes. And by the way back to the golfer to Lydia, I mean, you know, I was I was visiting a friend, and, you know, she's a late middle, she's in her late middle age, and we were chatting away and she was saying about how she kind of can't remember numbers the way that she used to, and she would have to write them down and she she once went to see this, this play, theater play and she was sitting through it and then she thought I seen this before. because you've seen this before, she's really concerned. So if you went, you went to a doctor, and the doctor was like, oh, gosh, you know, all sorts of mental health problems, maybe you're suffering from dementia and all the rest of it, and so on, they start getting into these kind of extensive tests. And my wife was there. And she was saying, you know, kind of memory issues are just part of menopause are usually is not just part of that, and have you looked at kind of like the hormone therapy type things. And and it's this aspect, fundamentally that you know, what you were talking about, and what Lydia Ko was talking about, essentially, is that there are physiological, fundamental distinctions between the sexes, which equality does not mean ignoring them. Yeah, if anything, it means recognizing the person as who they are, so that each of us have the spaces to be who they are. And the doctor who was a man, whose first response to a woman in the late middle age memory problem is, you're going mad, or you're losing, you know, you've got dementia or something, is an indication of how the medical profession itself isn't actually thinking in terms of the biology, the fundamental biology, between the different sexes, and what that means all the time. And if that's the case, then the rest of the media and everything else is takes those sort of examples, and it's all washed together somehow, somehow this idea of equality has to mean that we're all the same. It's not what equality means. Yeah. Yeah, um, the whole, the whole medical case and how women are ignored and treated is really quite astonishing. You know, if you go to a doctor, as a female, you've got to fight for yourself, rather than, you know, this idea that you're going mad. It's like if a woman in her 50s, it's like, the first thing, the first thing you should be doing is checking out this other stuff, right? It's like, it's crazy. All right, so another, moving on to another topic. So older workers in higher paid industries are joining the great resignation, that's in Vox. And so we've talked about the great resignation before. And so the initial phase of the great resignation was people younger people leaving their jobs. But now in the second year of the pandemic, it's moved into the older age group. And these tend to be sort of knowledge workers working for some of the big industries like financial tech, technology industries, and just basically knowledge worker fields. And obviously, most people in this age group can tend to be a little bit more financially stable, so they can make these sorts of decisions. But a lot of the research is indicating that they're just this experience of the last couple of years, they, they want more meaning in their life, they want to live and work in different ways. We've seen the push back on being forced to come back to work, a lot of people are quitting. So I think for me, these stories are an interesting story from the perspective of there's a real revolution going on. And I don't know if businesses are winner of the employees will win. But I think that I don't think we're gonna see the end of it. But it will open up the door to a lot more entrepreneur, entrepreneurial, sort of businesses, you know, individuals setting up, you know, there's one story of a person setting up a food stand in Hawaii, because they didn't want to go back to the office, that sort of stuff. So, yeah, you know, when we look at the news, what's going on around the world, what's going on in Russia, and Ukraine? I think people are just like, you know, maybe it's time for just something completely different what I was spending my entire life doing, you know, that aiming for the retirement where I couldn't sit, sit for 2030 years, you know, I think maybe there's a, there's a real change in thought that's going on? Did you guys have a look at that one? I think I think the world is coming to a situation right now, where I think we all carry these thoughts with us. I mean, I don't think I've ever met anyone who's, who's in their 40s Who's Who's not regretful of where they are, and the circumstances that they have to, they have to face from day to day that the deal that they have to take, because there's not much of a choice in the you know, a lot of a lot of time I spend with with these folks, in a corporate environment B, they'll spend time explaining to me, this is how it works. So how life is and it's a bit kinda like a pitch capitulated and compromised. And what they've been able to see now is because we're comparative animals, the COVID has given them the opportunity to see how other people have done things. And I think it's a combination of COVID as well as social media is like, it's like, you know, you, you probably wouldn't have heard about as many people like breaking out on their own back in the old days, because they just, you know, you probably hear about someone quitting their job, maybe after you meet them after a long time and you know, you quit your job. Whereas nowadays, it's like, it's an update on Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever it is. So if you're if you're in touch with them, you see the update and you see it so being social creatures. We look left we look right and we see oh okay, so so and so is doing that so and so is doing this and that and whatever it is. It must be possible. It's like It's like that four minute mile, right? I mean, the until, until the point when it was, it was actually run, the four minute mile was an impossibility. And within a year of the four minute mile the run it was being done by many people, because suddenly it's like, oh, we can do this. So I think it doesn't reflect so much the shift in what people wanted to do, but I think it's more shift and what people believe now it's possible. And I think they go, okay, you know, let's, let's do it. And I think what COVID did, was it, put it put your mortality in the focus, because you weren't, you know, you had time to go, Oh, you just never know what's going to happen, right? Because because you were placed in a situation where you go like this, this cannot happen, the world's never gonna come to a stop. It's just, you know, you just feel that things are going to happen. And suddenly this thing happens, which goes like, now, you can't take anything for granted. Yeah, absolutely. The the mortality issue, I thinks it's very much at the center, because it's, most people find it incredibly hard to talk about, particularly man I find. And it's a subject, you really want just to kick the can down the road, and don't have to face it, but COVID put it very much at the center of our lives. And I knew people who died in the epidemic, luckily, only three of them, but and they weren't close friends or relatives. But I know people who died in the village where I live, there was one guy on the other side of the fence who passed away. And it really raised this this aspect of, we're not going to be here forever. And when you come to that realization, and you've come to terms with it, because I think it's largely a journey where you, you accept that there will come a point in time where I'm gone. All of a sudden, you look at all things in your daily life as different lands, what is it that really matters to me. And if you are not happy at work, you should have made that decision a long time ago, I'm incredibly fortunate, I spent more than 30 years working with something I'm passionate about and love doing it turned out I was pretty good at it. So that's very fulfilling, but lots of people are not in that situation. And one thing that David and I keep kind of pounding about is that if you're going to be working a much longer stretch when we're looking at our children or David's case, his older children, which are all now in in their 20s and they've started their careers are about to start their careers is you're going to be doing this for 40 plus years, you actually need to find a niche space and path a journey, which doesn't necessarily need to make you happy 24/7 But you need to find fulfilment in what you're doing. And I see a lot of people around me about my age, call it largely speaking 45 to 60 I really too early to retire in a traditional sense that are not happy with what they're doing. And COVID really brought this mortality aspect to the forefront and made them question What are you going to do when you are fully aware of you having less left than you have in the tank? So there's less left what my journey here? What do I really want to focus on and what is it that makes me smile and be not necessarily happy? Because it's a very loose word, but fulfilled and contempt yeah with with what my existence consists of and I'm not surprised when you see the stats of people in that age bracket saying you know what, I need to do something else that actually makes me want to get out of bed in the morning. And I'm I readily acknowledge I'm incredibly lucky. I've never ever one morning had a problem getting out of bed at five o'clock. I think that's just like to say I mean you know, Richard and I we basically are in that group. Absolutely. We you know, we left the investment industry and was it 2020 and embark on a path where we have no idea where this is going to take us and we're doing it not not as retirement we're doing it because we feel that there is that there are there are things that were in the sense we call to do in to to achieve what we hope you know, we will be able to manage analyze, although my my 11 year old does look does look at me each morning and tell me you know, when are you going to get a proper job and get a salary? Money It's funny, my, my boys have rarely seen us going off to the office will go away for long periods of time but they rarely see is going to the office because 2006 was on our first setup. And I've had to go back a couple of times. I always say I'm a I'm a millennial and Gen X body, I was looking for the digital nomadic lifestyle before it existed. Just just this need for I can I work hard wherever I am, I just got I just need to do it on my own terms. No, but the rules, the structure, I just couldn't cope with it. So I'm, I'm kind of feeling good about what's going on. It's, you know, other options are possible different types of lifestyles are possible. And, you know, people ask me all the time, how'd you do it? You know, what are the challenges? You know, I might just, he's just gonna sometimes you just got to say, what do I want and go out and take it and it's here. It's waiting for you. You know? I think Joe's comment is, is absolutely right. We when we when we started, when we finished writing our book, we got a read by founder of The Eden Project. So Tim Smith, and you know, the Eden Project is involved has for a long time been involved essentially in rewilding in kind of bringing about to demonstrate that actually, it is possible for financial to recover in that way. And we were talking to him about that. And what we were talking about essentially, that, you know, we need not just the nature to recover, we need our human societies to recover, to move away from the economic thinking that's driving everything, which is fundamentally driven towards this idea that somehow every element has to be about the profitability of a transaction. To more thinking about what is the purpose our own inherent purpose was, what are we living for. And from that back, and he says, what you need a new stories. And that's what Joe's talking about. People hearing the stories that hearing new stories. And as we go forward into into the challenges we faced with the climate, I think it's very important that those stories get encapsulated within within kind of a context of society. And I go, I go singing with my mum, my mum is partially blind, and she's in her late 80s. And she's part of a group of partially blind, you know, kind of visually impaired singers, the coffee IP singers. That's a song they sing, which is the theme song from cheers where it goes, you know, I want to be where everybody knows my name, where we all have the same problems. And we all know each other, basically. And, you know, I don't know the lyrics, bit of art, but actually, that's the sense that's the sort of new stories, in many ways, their own stories, but we've lost them. And maybe this wave is kind of reflecting and this what we will say, just reflecting that maybe this actually gets everybody back to the table for the dinner with a glass of wine and actually feel a little bit more comfortable for the main course. Yeah, try try to keep words like mortality and death. Pretty much closer closures of any discussion you hope to have later on with the cheese. It's so funny doesn't bother me to talk about stuff like that, then, but I do. I am very much aware of how it does bother people. And but they're talking about death. So the World Health Organization has released. I think it was just yesterday, there was a breaking news story, the true pandemic death toll is 15 million, which is facing basically 13% more deaths than normally expected over two years. So we've talked about what's occurred again, they're not under counted deaths. excess deaths before. Yeah. And so basically, what 5.4 million have been registered worldwide, but they believe that it's at 14 Point 9 million. And in India, they are saying there were 4.7 million deaths. And obviously the Indian government is objecting to that. But there's lots of different other conclusions. There's a lot of countries where they can't get the data, especially across Africa. But like in Egypt, they believe it's 11.6 times more than the government reported India 9.9 times Pakistan eight times more. So I thought I thought that was an interesting piece of news to break this week. Interesting, heartbreaking. But yeah, excess deaths was to me was always the the thing to focus on when everyone goes but only two people are dying, and then light up the excess deaths is showing that it's not two, it's a lot more than two people. That to me was a fundamental part of the COVID conversation that people were looking the other way. And, I mean, you know, there are lies, damned lies and statistics, but pretty simple measure. I think a good friend of mine who's into stats a lot more than me is more David's kind of background. So add that, you know, it's pretty simple. If you want to explain COVID where we have stats is that you take the excess death numbers, then you put in a few variables like major disasters, major incidents, you know, airlines going down or ships sinking, etc, that you can justify by more than a car accident. But actually mileage driven dropped as well as we should have had fewer people died in car accidents. And he said, if you take all these things in, the only reasonable explanation you have left is either that COVID killed them, or they died because of COVID. If they didn't get help, because they were terrified to go to the hospital, even though they're had chest pains, and clearly we're having a heart attack. So yeah, it's, I'm not surprised that you coming to that conclusion. But I still think that the number shrouded in darkness in in areas where reporting is less than adequate, probably means that number is gonna keep going up, you know, five years from now, when we look back, and it's quite likely, you're going to have access mortality for a long time to come mostly because of people not getting cancer treatments in time, etc. So the number is, is huge. It's terrifying. And I think with hindsight, it's way way excessive of what could have been better guiding and better politics in many countries. I think, you know, the part that people don't actually recognize this that Richard talked about how his people, three people, you know, eventually died with this period, Ivan COVID. My wife works at hospitals. If you work in a hospital, everything you saw has been the worst cases, concentrated together for a year and a half. And you have been in the trenches, and your own colleagues have been following you. And resources have been extremely pushed, and extremely scarce over that time, over all of that. So whatever you may think of as being, you know, the debts and all the rest of it, what the, what it has, I honestly think, you know, in the UK, there was a period where everybody's clapping every week for the NHS and all the rest of it. And then we got into all these issues about, you know, whether they should get 2% extra pay, or whether they like, has taken half by away and all of those things, and so on. I think where it points down to is actually within all of this, and it goes back to the thing about the people who are leaving workforces, and who are doing all of that is that it has been a fundamental moment when we actually should spend the next few years seriously contemplating about how we want to live who it is. Who's Who, whose help, is it that we really want to be thankful for? And how do we want to do that? And it's not always with money is very often with how we interact with them. Yeah. And and I think that is how what I take from those statistics from from from that numbers is how do you actually then take that out? Take that down to thinking, what does it actually mean, you know, for that number of people to have died? Because what it meant is the hospitals were what it meant was a staffing of authors, people were there, what it meant was that they have had to deal with a situation where there were no relatives around. And they were the strangest bedside. They in, day out. And that way. And the grief. Yeah. Yeah. And the other the other side of things, you know, we, which I don't know if you saw it in the UK, but across Asia, you know, we were saying terrifying saints, like I've spoken to a lot of my friends in India, when the big waves hit, you know, you're talking about the people who actually went to the hospital with the most extreme cases, a lot of the deaths that happened were quite young people where they just couldn't get it. They just couldn't get oxygen. I just couldn't get to a hospital, though, you know, that there was these WhatsApp groups that were formed, you know, billions of people talking all over Asia, where can you get this? Where can you get that and everyone was just talking to each other, trying to get spots in hospitals. And there's the stories of the person being moved from from this hospital where they couldn't get into this one. And they died on the way and that just wasn't the capacity to deal with it. And young people were dying. And they you know, if they were in, if they were in the UK, they wouldn't have died. And that part of the story for me was like, you know, so much loss so much grief. I mean, some of my friends in India, they've lost so many members of their family, you know, even in the UK, I mean, I was so i i caught COVID by my wife called COVID from her work at the hospital. She, she got it, she brought it home. And then we sort of then cascaded through the rest of us. We were in lockdown together. And they just went on through. And my son who got it lost his sense of taste for six months. And he's like, you know, this is the worst thing in my life. I love my food, I can't taste anything. But I ended up having a lot of respiratory problems. And my wife actually forced me to go to hospital saying, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'll be okay. She's like, No, you've got she's got this thing that measures your oxygen things. And she says, you know, you're crashing. And I'm like, No, I'll be okay. So she took me the hospital. And, and it was in sorry, you know, kind of beautiful countryside in England, very wealthy area. And they had a closest kind of what they closed all the wards so that they would be able to take people with and there was this private, weak, private kind of hospital thing, that they completely closed down. And I was the first one in. And that was very late at night, by the morning, it was completely full. As how many people have come in over that time, and they were running out of space. And that's just kind of the in the wealthy country in the country with the facilities and the capacities and the planning, to the extent they will completely we is shocking to think that, you know, a lot of that comes from what Richard describes as being that Waterpik story that you have, you know, I think you should you should talk about that. The Waterpik story as it's just, it's a trading desk conversation from many, many moons ago, when we were debating what happens when your possessions start moving against you at a very slow rate. Because when you get hit suddenly, by an event in markets, it's very simple, you need to get out. So you stop out and you clear the book and you go for a walk and you go home early. But when it's creeping up on you, it's much more difficult to draw a line in the sand and say, No, this is my read point of pain where I need to get out. And my colleague was a very, very funny person. He described it as the water pigs going down to get something to drink. And you can see the Anaconda coming up from the water like that a big snake. Yeah, but he's far away. I'm not worried about it. Keep on drinking. Oh, he's coming closer. Do you think you've seen me? Keep on drinking. Oh, my God, he's pretty big, isn't it? I'm sure there are other people or other animals around here that is looking at noise coming from me and it's too late. Then you go. And and that's very much in our DNA, with regard to climate change, as well, because this is not something that happened overnight, we didn't get hit by category six hurricane that left us without the house and you have to pitch a tent somewhere in a center where people are gathering. It's creeping up on us. And we as animals, or our definite DNA composition makes us very, very poor at dealing with slow moving change. If it's a sudden crisis, you adrenaline kicks in and you fight or flight. But when it come creeping up on you, it's incredibly hard to decide when you actually do need to take action because the pain has become too much. And yeah, it's I do like the water pig story a lot because he really encapsulates so much in our lives. Like it's a bit uncomfortable, but you know, probably not me. Yeah. And it's kind of it's a, it's a refreshing change from the frog in the hot water, right. So just moving on, like, We're just a couple of more stories in global politics. So it was announced this week that Turkeys cost of living has soared nearly 70%. And of course, this is an important story, because the Arab Spring was off the back of a much lesser crisis from a financial and famine perspective. So I think these this is the start of these big things to come. But it's also because Turkey has conservative sort of approach to interest rates, but the article that and I think you guys would have really interesting perspective on this. The title is, it's in Reuters, why no peck the US Bill to cash crushed the OPEC cartel matters. So basically, no Peck is the no oil producing and exporting cartels. And obviously, we know OPEC, which basically Saudi Arabia is the king of so they're looking at putting in place anti trust laws, when they orchestrate supply cuts that raise global crude prices. And what they're saying is yes, and there's a chance that this potentially could go through when it hasn't in the past, because there's so much anger in the queue. immunity. But of course, if you put something like this in place, then it opens your country up to similar actions like in the agricultural sector, when they're holding it back. So that was supposed to pass the committee last night. But it's, it's got to get through the Senate and a whole bunch of other stuff. But I thought that was an interesting move. Did you have any thoughts on that? I think not surprisingly, we do. I'm not going to presume you've read everything I've sent, you know, this one, I read in depth, because I was following it quite a bit. And us takes on the face of it, this very anti Stern. I sort of stone anti trust, anti monopoly view of things. And it's pretty clear that OPEC is an organization with 100% self interest is going to do what's best for their members, etc. Like you said, it does raise other issues with the US where they're less interested in antitrust issues. Particularly, you can take a company like Google, which effectively now controls more or less the search universe. They are not surprisingly, they're less interested. Oil is very much at the center of what David and I have been working on with regard to climate change. And I think, first of all, I don't think it will pass. That's my personal judgment, because there's still a lot of thorny issues around it. And the in energy lobbying the US is very strong. And they don't particularly like this, because they're actually worried about the opposite, that if you push OPEC to open the tabs, prices will collapse. And US oil, because it's more expensive to produce will become non competitive. It, it shoots very much at the heart of the right for individual countries to look at energy as a national issue rather than a planetary issue. And I think that's where we should focus our efforts in rethinking how this has to work, because the runway we have for this planet is getting shorter. And in that sense, this is not helpful at all, because it's seen purely through a US centric lens. So this, you know, on that point is Richard say, I mean, I mean, obviously echoes what we said, right, beginning in America as a way to get into everybody else's business. Right? You know, this is just another way of we're trying to get everybody photosynthesis, but fossil fuels is fundamentally everybody's business is not about my business, your business, everybody's business. 5.7 billion people in the world live in countries which don't have any self sufficiency and self sufficiency. Of the remaining 2 billion half of those people live in four countries, the US, Brazil, Indonesia, and Nigeria. So basically, if you think about what that means is, you know, 1 billion people who live in four countries, basically, by by weight, have their voices, essentially, call on what happens to the other 5.7 billion people in that way. The fifth country along that by population, incidentally, is Russia, along there. And so what you have is a situation that if you, you have to decide what actually is the most important problem that you actually have to manage? Out of all this? Is it the price of gasoline for you? Or is your climate? Yeah, and this is a question we don't want to talk about, because sorry, everybody at the dinner table, it's probably time to go and get another glass of wine. Get yourself for it, you know, maybe drink it or quickly, the rest of it. Because what happens is at the moment, we had about 1.2 degrees above so that pre industrial level, and we're going to watch one and a half degrees. And here is what Richard Knight describes as the uncomfortable so and uncomfortable basically means let's forget about it is going to go away. That's what it means. But actually, when you look down to what's happening, and you you hear all these articles about people writing about how you know, we're all going to, you know, be like climate change, carry on through we all going to suffer and all the rest. They write about things which I think actually are way beyond what's going to happen first. Because what's going to happen first is our cost of living is going to rise. The cost of business is going to increase. We're going to get more sick. Just think about the fact that you know the ice we're talking about in Sri Lanka. You know, you don't have the ice to preserve your food, and you're going to get a lot of a lot more food poisoning. As a result of it, just think about the rolling Park as you get in different parts of the world, India at the moment, which is suffering from the sort of rolling pockets because they're running short of coke, because the hot season has come a month earlier. And what happens is when one part runs out, the load onto the rest of the electricity network is too much for the artist and you just bring them all down. So you get these massive grid collapses as a result, and then your refrigerator goes off your restaurants with a little bit off. And then people get a little bit more food poisoned than they used to, that hits your productivity of your business, your business is unable to provide all the things that it does, that it normally does. India makes most of our drugs or medicines. And we start getting shortages in the states across the world as a result. And the economy basically implodes before we get to all of these things that people talk about a certain, you know, sea level rise, and we lose our Manhattan seafront, those sort of things. And that's actually what's going to happen. And we're going to see that over the next over this coming decade, we're going to find that asset prices are going to be very hard to be maintained. We have a short window here, where we can really do something in terms of getting the fossil fuel under control. So energy has to be looked at as a global issue. And let's come why not look at energy as an individual issue is, is a global issue in terms of what is total supply of fossil fuels. 80% of our energy comes from fossil fuels at the moment in the world and the UK, which boasts having more having more renewables producing our electricity than fossil fuels by huge by a rising proportion, still has 75% of his total energy coming from fossil fuels. That's because it takes energy to produce energy. And part of the energy that produces our renewables is fossil fuels. And people ignore that and just can't be other bits. So the road towards the net zero needs a lot of fossil fuels. And if we don't manage that, what happens is that our emissions are accelerating. And here's example of the acceleration in 1965. President Lyndon Johnson in the US got a report on atmospheric pollutants in there, it said explicitly about global warming, and carbon dioxide. And the decision then was wait and see let's watch it, but the anacondas in the Waterpik story. At that point, there's this thing that we have called the Keeling Curve, which measures the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere over time. And you find in each year, it wobbles up and down, it wobbles up and down because plants grow, they take in the carpet outside, then they die as you get colder and carbon dioxide gets given out. And so you have this oscillation that goes on in the ocean, this is part of those sorts of things along with it. So essentially seasonal to us. In the 1960s, that oscillation, the the size of one oscillation, corresponded to about 10 years worth of increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. So we started the beginning in 1960, and you watched it at the bottom of the oscillation, you went for 10 years, and you find that actually top of oscillation is now where the average level was, in terms of concentration. If you look at it today, it covers only two years. That's how much more carbon dioxide a year, we're basically giving are five times more than we were in the 1960s. And every year, the EIA projects, which is the Energy Information association in the US, projects that under the best climate policy scenario that we have, by 2050, we are going to more than double our renewables. But we will use 20% more fossil fuels. Which is absolutely crazy. Now there are two things you can think about from that. One is if you want to think about carbon capture, the amplitude of the oscillations for all the plants in the oceans and things are doing to capture carbon at the moment, is capable of capturing in two years of emissions we're done. Basically, in that way. If you want to think about carbon capture, you need to make as many things for carbon capture as what all the plants and things are doing at the moment. And then you're just keeping par with it, basically. And remember this thing. What that will do is to make us feel that we don't have to look after our plants. But the thing about carbon capture technology that the planet provides it is make soil and these other technologies that make carbon capture, don't make soil and without soil you've got Another problem. And so it just cascades on by us trying to outsmart the planet in a planet doesn't like being smart, or smarter than is going to come back and says, You know what, you guys are not really that smart. It's a profound point. Because, you know, in my world, which is always a little bit more simple than David's world. You pick fights, you can win, you know, doesn't really matter what profession you are, when you're dealing with the next issue. You you go into battle to win a contract or you go into battle to find a cheaper source of supplier, you pick fights that you can win. picking a fight with a planet is a really surefire way of losing. And we shouldn't waste our time going into fights that you cannot win. I've been teaching my kids that since they started please paying some notice to what you're saying to them. It's like individuals, right with ideas, you know, pick your battles, telling them every time they sort of say I don't want to do what you say, you say, thank you when you can't do well, I try and encourage my children to talk rather than fight. But anyway. Another one is takes blocking states blocking oil embargo in complicit in crimes. So basically, the Ukraine is saying that EU countries were blocking an embargo on imports of Russian oil would be complicit in crimes committed by Russian troops on Ukrainian territory by funding Moscow's military. Another story that I really want to encourage everyone to read a crisis upon a crisis, human trafficking, human trafficking of Ukrainian refugees. It's a pretty, pretty sad part of what's going on. But there's this article, and then we're gonna go on to the theme section, it's called Russian troops held me captive at gunpoint for two weeks in Ukraine. Here's what I learned. And so basically, this guy called Ruben Johnson is a contributor or journalist for a publication called breaking defense. And I hadn't come across him before, but basically him and his wife and the driver got attacked machine machine gunfire on their cars, they were trying to escape. And they managed to get out survive. And basically, they were reporting how the Russians basically weren't interested in them. They just went in, rip their bags apart, stole their phones, their money, their computers, and basically a gold ring off his fingers that he was going to give to his son for his graduation that was coming up this month. They were then taken for a night to one place, and then they were taken to a place for two weeks. And where they was stationed, they could actually hear the conversation in the control room that was going on. And so though, I think it's called gusta Mel airport, and he was telling the story of this airport was completely destroyed by the Russians, which meant that the reason for capturing it was for them to get supplies in. And because they destroyed it. They couldn't get supplies in and they completely underestimated the Ukrainians. The Fall, I think it was four key points that were raised. The Russians went in there with unrealistic, unrealistic, unrealistic expectations. Basically, they were going to be home within a few days, and then Ukrainians would surrender, and that they had no ability to fight back. The second one was no rational or defined objectives. Basically, the Russian side, had no real objectives for the he's an unprovoked war. And the soldiers were basically really confused. And they didn't know what was going on. logistical and command failures, so shortage of full fuel, food, and all everything that they needed ammunition, and then lack of discipline. So I thought this was interesting. The Russian veterans of the Afghan war, who were interviewed recently pointed out that the looting, rape and murder of the civilian population by Moscow soldiers in Ukraine are indications of an army that has lost all semblance of a discipline structure, and has no robust Noncommissioned Officer Corps to maintain it. It's a it's also a sign that that already some suspects that it's lost the war. And I, I found that a really interesting article. Did you guys pull anything out of that one? Because I thought it was a fascinating insight. Absolutely. I think the part with the African veterans who certainly are far bit older than me and David goes to the heart of all military operations and leaving the humanitarian catastrophe that Ukraine is suffering at the moment side for a moment, at least. When you decide to engage militarily You need to have a clearly defined target of what what is it you want to achieve? And we've seen it in modern times in Afghanistan that essentially we, the Western coalition went in without fully understanding what the target was for engaging the Taliban. And you go further back in time, I'd probably say the same thing about Vietnam, what did you was want to achieve by engaging and taking over from the French. If you go in without clearly set objectives, you made it a lot harder for yourself. To not have discipline an army is a surefire way of making it even harder for yourself. And it's always gonna kind of come back to bite you. Because even if you worse, to manage somehow, a military success, you can probably not keep the peace in in a meaningful, structured and effective way if you lack that kind of discipline and an army. So it totally tallies with most of the things we hear. But to hear it from kind of insiders with a certain perspective, on the situation, of course, makes it more poignant, and terrifying in a way because an army lacking discipline can also decide to mutiny. Yeah, and that I'm sure it's something we would want to avoid at all costs, because the Russian military still very large. And at some point, if, if if the casualty rates we are hearing about and even acknowledging officially our true, morale is not gonna be great on the restaurant side. Yeah, I think we were Richard and I were at dinner two weeks ago, where Hillary Clinton was the Speaker was the tennis speaker. And she was asked question about, you know, the Ukraine, Ukraine war. And she basically said, it's going to last for years. I think it's very, I, I honestly believe it's gonna last for decades. You know, I think that, fundamentally, what needs to be done is you need to have troops on the ground, and as long as you don't have troops on the ground is going to carry on for as long as it's going to carry on. You know, catching conflict lasted decades. Yeah, this is, that's just kind of how it is in that way. And this is a problem because we have bigger problems in the world. And we need to get together come together, we can't have these sort of ideology driven things. And at the core of what Europe responses, and I actually am thinking this is terrible. And I actually think this was terrible when Biden withdrew from Afghanistan, and Britain had the chance to stand up and says we keeping our troops it didn't, it could have just said, we're going to keep our troops. You know, we will Sorry, I'll figure out what happens. But it didn't. And this is one of the things we were talking about, you know, turn the other cheek sort of thing. Yeah. That doesn't mean you're not actually taking an active and a positive action. What Ukraine needs is people to go and help them face, the invading forces that they're dealing with. And, and to put this into real context, I mean, my daughter who's 11, has a boy who joined a week ago into a class who came from Ukraine. And I spoke with her mom. And she came from the Ukraine, because she said her sister was here. I say, oh, has your sister been line for a long time, she says no, her sister was living in Moscow. At a point when the conflict started, she was married to an English person, which is why she managed to come over to London. And she then came over from Ukraine. And this is the part where actually Russia and Ukraine in terms of the people and where they are, is very, very close. Literally, our two countries, that's kinda like, you know, people crossing states in the US and so on. So in terms of the people and the suffering that the people are being inflicted, it hates them on both sides along in that way. And it's the action of a of some people say Putin is mad. I don't know if he is he may be very smart. I have no idea of a person in that way into a conflict where everybody is making up excuses to back off from actually engaging him and actually doing what the only thing that will help to shorten this is not economic sanctions, because you will look at Iran that has been under economic sanctions. Look at North Korea, that has been under economic sanctions for a very long time. And if you allow this to carry on, you're going to end up with this whole issue. You're about energy and what to do with that energy. And you're going to need, you're going to end up losing the ability to have a consensus to be able to have any kind of a global mandate to deal with the fact that we need to distribute our energy much better, we're going to face the challenge of climate. And the only way to do that actually is the only the only right thing to do with regards to the description of the story you said is you to need boots on the ground. And, and everyone has shying away from it and making up stories about how Russia's nuclear power, but Iran is potentially a nuclear power that boots on the ground. You know, there was all the things about how Iraq had 45 minutes it was had capability to detect us in 45 minutes. That didn't stop people from getting boots on the ground in that way. And if you were to go along, and I should imagine, what's the landscape? If you were to ask him, by the way, that's a really, really excellent comedy series, servant of the people, but people haven't seen it. Really, very fine. Very, very funny. And if you were to ask him, I'm sure, you know, help us actually do something active, positive, to recover our to recover our land, you know, so we can go and actually live and continue. Yeah, all the embargoes and all the rest of it. Sure. They indicate our efforts that as we were talking before, the way you're doing it, it's not genuine, because you're just passing on the problem to everyone else in the world to all the poor people in the world to try and deal with. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I mean, this is I mean, he also read that this is, as a war. It's one of the most colossal miscalculations in the history of modern warfare, and that the Russian army is now 75% of the Russian military. So I'm wondering how they're going to do their, their May May parade when there's so much FF sort of focus over there. But yeah, 7000 or something? Yeah. I mean, the only remaining threat, really, from the Russian army is nuclear. And we've just got to work out a way to get this stopped, right? Well, you gotta face it. You can't you can't let the threat be the thing that holds you back in that way. And, and, you know, here's, here's one thing that we noticed, and we talked about Richard and I, you know, the reason why we really got involved with our with thinking about our transformation ownership idea that you mentioned the beginning, was, because when we looked at the IPCC report on climate change that came out in August, last year, they had this projection of what happens to soil moisture around the world. And as we get towards four degrees, what happens, what you find is that all the pretty much all every major agricultural area in the world loses moisture, except for the region around Russia, Eastern Ukraine and Belarus. Yeah. So I'm not sure whether Putin is mad or not, or whether he has a very long foresight about what's actually going to happen. But the implications of all of this, this is all tied to the problems we're seeing around that, you know, what, what the climate does, the problem with getting warmer, and in the UK report yesterday came out to say that, you know, the birds are laying their eggs three weeks earlier. In that way, India is getting heatwave early and we are seeing all those things is that it's just a slow drift that erodes our ability to recover from things. So when we get a problem along the same as what you mentioned, with COVID, and things, we actually have to tackle it head on, and fast. Because we allow it to go on our ability to recover from it is going to be taken away. And we're going to lose that by being like Waterpik someone else is gonna get eaten first, not me. You know, I'm an agreement. Okay. So first of all, I just want to acknowledge geneticists commenting furiously away, there is obviously enjoying the conversation and both of your insights. So it's good to have you back today as he's been on before. He's one of those engaged people. So we are going to do our first Are you ready, Joe? Our first ever video premiere. And then I'm gonna hand it over to you guys. And just to talk about what you what you're doing, what your plans are, and how we can support you because that's, that's the thing. We need a billion people acting right. So yes, to me, that's one of the core messages. So over to you, Joe. All right. So you are on YouTube and you just watched a Johnny Depp deposition and shake your head, then YouTube suggest that you watch another video and it's this one. So when no real context let's imagine this interrupts your flow of video. Let's go if you believe in six impossible things before Breakfast, we would like you to believe in one more, we can fix climate change. Join us to get a billion people to support investors and businesses to pledge a trillion dollars. So we can put fossil fuels into stewardship. We call this transformational ownership. investors and businesses putting up the money will be able to say they're doing it purely for the planet. The money will go to buying up all the fossil fuel producers into a single global stewardship fund to commit production to climate science. The companies will continue to make profits to make the energy transformation possible. But nobody makes money from transformational ownership. The profit will all go back to supporting people Africa, through local projects they choose for themselves. Together, transformational ownership, fixes climate change, and gives everybody the dignity of choosing for themselves. Join us to make it happen. Email us at I want to help at transformational ownership.org. Join our seminars to find out why without it, emissions will keep increasing until they bankrupt us. Help us to reach people all over the world by inviting us to speak at your conferences. Transformational ownership is the only way to keep our net zero efforts alive. believe in the impossible, because waiting is no longer an option. Let us build the biggest crowdfunding event ever. And in time for cop 27 to give customers something to talk about transformational ownership brings everybody together to give the planet a seat at the table. Nice. Let's get an idea in terms of how, you know for me, it just it just struck me the this idea that if there is this this table, and again, this metaphor seems to work for the rest of the day as well. Right? I mean, this this table around which the world's affairs are discussed that the planet itself doesn't have a seat at it. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's excessive. That's where we ended up on which you and I were trying to work out sustainability policy, when we were working in the investment industry, was that he we were all telling everybody about how we were going to help the planet. But what was the voice of the planet itself in all this. And the voice of the planet is really clear, you know, is the carbon dioxide concentrations are increasing, the temperatures are getting hotter, we see it every day of summers are getting hotter. And all the consequences of is going on, we're seeing the heavy rains, we're seeing the floods that goes on as a result of fires that happen. And the tornadoes, you know, the amazing pictures, we also have tornadoes in the US earlier in the year. And all of those things. And the point is actually that this goes back to this other aspect of dignity in the if we are to treat the planet with dignity, we treat it as an equal partner, we needed to have a genuine seat at the table as an equal partner. And then we would like it is it is like, you know, when you are in a relationship, you know that the relationship is not going to work. If your partner keeps telling me kept telling you stop trying to change me all the time. You know, we think of the audit time or let's change the environment. Let's do this for let's do that. Your when your partner is actually saying, you know, just let me be you know, if you want this relation to work, take me as what I am, and then find out how you're going to behave in that. And last but getting seated, say trying to meet. And we need a billion people and a trillion dollars, because what's happening at the moment. So you have a lot of climate protests, you have a lot of people going on. And this is to say there is a direct positive action we can do take hold of all the fossil reproduces, buy them all up. But we need a mandate for it. So let's not start small, with a small experiment of funds and so on something like that. Let's get a billion people on board to tell investors in businesses to pledge a trillion dollars. And we've talked to governments we've talked to so many investors, we've talked to climate negotiators. We've talked to community groups and everyone else, and everyone likes the idea but they say but no one else will go for it. So let's do that. Let's get everybody together and say, pledge it but only give it if everybody goes for it. But for your side, you need to go along and say you're gonna go for it if everybody else comes on board in that way. And now let's think about what we asking the billion people to do. So Andre is in Phuket. And we looked up population of Phuket, which is about 440,000. And you were talking before to us about the one Phuket group that you have, which is trying to bring them all together to face the challenges before of the climate, then of COVID. Now the cost of living is going on. What we asking is tick, own all the fossil fuel companies so we can take the profit from them that they give out to the shareholders, because we now the shareholders will now the business last year, they gave $110 billion, we want to give that on an equal basis per person. You know, it doesn't matter if you're five or 85, as a person, you're eligible to an equal share of that. And it goes to project you nominate yourself choose it. So for 440,000 people in Phuket that's about $6 million every year. This is not accounting for the price of rice that we've seen at the moment in that way, in these things. So let's not have this argument about how the UK should tax BP. Because all that does, is it takes the money that poor people around the world have had to pay in proportion of their only income in terms of the end high energy cost into the rich coffers of a rich country. That's what that tax means is extremely unfair on a global scale. The only right way to do that is that the profits of the fossil fuel industry, which are necessary in order for us to be able to hit the demand of energy and to reconsider what happens. And I'll talk a little bit about that a bit more, to go right back down to the everybody to the people of the world, for them to choose how they want to spend. You know, if a group in Phuket wants to go and have a lazy Sunday afternoon drinks, and wants to spend in that way, because you know, maybe that's the only way to keep up our sense of humor. Because if we lose our sense of humor, we are going to be so traumatized by this. And when when activists think about how we need more renewables, and everything else we forget is the dignity of the person that counts the most. And what this does is we're calling on a billion people to say they want that $14 for them to go into project they want. That's what we asked him to do. You know, you're just simply asking for money. Rather than asking billing bullet contribute money, you're asking for billing for people to say they want money. Surely we can achieve that. And as for where you're actually getting the money from, we've already paid it. Every product we buy, is made with fossil fuels. When 80% of our energy comes from fossil fuels, think of this as literally, four out of every five things you see around is only possible because of fossil fuels. So we've already paid into that. We're just asking the businesses and investors to actually give that up to buy the planet, the seat at the table. And what's a trillion dollars? Well, it's less than half a percent of what McKinsey's estimates is what we will need to spend on that zero. If we don't spend this, we are not going to achieve net zero. What it also means is, last year, the businesses of the in the world returned back to their investors who are pensions and so on. Over a billion dollars over a trillion dollars. If the investors did not receive that trillion dollars, they would have made 17% return, they would not even have known they didn't get triggered, which is kind of an indication of how insignificant it is. But with a trillion dollars, you can pretty much buy up the majority ownership of all of the public fossil fuel companies so that you can actually commit their production, to glow to climate science so that we actually cooperate over how to maintain our energy and minimize our emission. And you can then go along because you're now the owners to be able to say all of the profit go to people. And who are the owners? I think this is really important question. So imagine, for example, that a pension fund, a pension fund, the way pension funds work is that under its own mandate, it cannot really just give out money. He can kind of invest into the transformation ownership fund, as we say, but some of the under his mandate will not be able to do so because there's no profit to be gained from it. But what it can do is it can ask the businesses, so long as Unilever to go and say on my behalf, I want you to contribute. Unilever returned about $5,000,000,000.04 to five A billion dollars last year in dividends, whose investors, this is money that does not affect his operations, because he's already accounted for that this money gives back to US investors is to go and say, actually contribute part of that or contribute all of that into this. So that's you can get a trillion dollars from them very easily in that way. But by asking them, so the money is there. And the 100 billion, you know, the, the notice came up in$15. Along that you spend your day, well, actually, you know, when you put all of that money together into your community, you build your community, you go back to the question could come and we talked before, we need stories, we need stories to help us survive, we need a way so that we can feel we are in control again. And this is a plan that gives people back control that gives dignity over what they can choose, and how they can choose to face it. It takes gives investors and businesses the most the strongest case against accusations of greenwashing, we are giving money to buy the planet a seat at the table. We don't get make any money from it. But we make sure in this way that no more fossil fuel is produced than what climate science tells us. And when that's the case, it doesn't matter how you use it, you can't emit more than that. You've actually limited your emission. So we can then let economics and capital economics work in his proper way. And regulations can then actually have really strong powers. Because at the moment when regulations is making carbon pricing it $100 in Europe and $30 in California, you know, all that's doing is putting all the incentives into the wrong place. And to the question with a cell, this is very simple, you are owner of a fossil fuel company. And you know, Shell Oil, for example, is 80% owned by individuals, I just buy from the market, I can buy that chair from the market, and you want to have this pledge. So it becomes very well known. And this is this is the aspect of it, you don't actually go out and do anything until you have this huge thing around the world where you've gathered a billion people and a trillion dollars pledged. And then you go out and you say, Look, now we go and do this. And everybody knows, and you'd be having the conversation around the dinner table, you know, with your Extron chair? Are you going to sell it? Are you going to hold out? You know, are you genuinely going to hold out? Or are you just going to sell it for the price? It is not it is because if we don't sell it now, it's going to become worthless. Because if we leave it later, regulations will come in confiscate all these assets. And because that's the only way in which governments can take the next step to deal with climate change. And this is a way by which actually, you know what, it's still got a price you can pay for you can get for it. And if you look around and we have these considerations about you know, what about the private and companies, they are the same, the same, the same question goes across to them. And you can then go along and and highlight the people who own the companies and put them on the spot and says, Why don't you and for the state? And what's really interesting, because actually, if you look back to that no pac question. If you look at the amount of carbon dioxide in need to emit, in other words, how hard it is to extract a barrel of oil out, what you find is that Saudi oil is the cleanest. So you're interested in keeping energy and reducing fossil reducing carbon dioxide emission, what you find is that you've got to turn off other places first. And so for for the places which earn something like OPEC, Venezuela, unfortunately is like the worst. That's basically muck that you have to do a lot of work to try and get a bit of water out. Think about tar sands up there as well, which are, I mean, absolutely insane. To produce oil from tar sands from an environmental perspective, I think the economics work out that you need to consume about one barrel of oil to get three out there, which is in the north, the north of Russia in the Arctic, so that's going to become unbelievably expensive, right so that's going to increase the prices too. So there's that you need a global stewardship and what sorts of tasks is actually allows the technology to go to you know, the the coal towns, where the local economies are entirely dependent on it, in order to help them transform by by this because you bring all the all the energy companies of the world today. as to how to collaborate rather than compete on this, and you force governments to address the question of energy security on a global basis, because that's the only way to address it, which is the problem that we are seeing at the moment. We talked before about Sri Lanka and Europe claiming, you know, the moral high ground but condemning other people to the energy, not not even just energy, poverty, energy death in that way, and because the Gen, because seriously, there is no other way to do this, then the fact that we have to face we cannot keep using so much energy 80% of energy comes from fossil fuels. And we're going to reduce that one cake that we emitted, then if I mentioned this earlier, we emitted 39 Giga tons of carbon dioxide last year, almost all of that came from fossil fuels. And with 80% of energy coming from fossil fuels, to remove one giga ton, is equivalent to taking out the entire energy consumption of Germany for a whole year. That's a lot it needs to be shared out, is also equivalent to one and a half times all the renewables Europe used in 2020. So if you want to replace it, you need to pretty much double the renewable of Europe in a year without using any fossil fuel. So you can't mine because all that use fossil fuel, so it's not going to happen. And if you can do that, for 39 years, year after year, what you're going to find is that you'd have almost emitted twice the limit. For one and a half degrees, you'd have overshot completely, one half degrees, that's if you can actually bring that in place. Now we need to do that. And the only way we're going to do that is we actually control all the fossil fuel produced all the fossil fuel, so that we can maximize the energy for the controlling the emission and taking the emissions down and sharing it out, which is what the cop conferences need to be about. So the cop conferences is not about finance, the cop conferences needs to be about how do we guarantee that every country will have the proper amount of energy, proper share of energy. And that's the biggest problem that we face. Because if we don't come together to do this, what we're going to see is that the climate run ahead of us is like that, and the conduct which is talking about it's going to swallow us up, we can get bankrupt before. And to get the mandate for that if you get a billion people saying they want money from the fossil fuels. And you get investors in businesses pledged trillion dollars to say they're doing this purely to give plant seat at the table. You've got a global mandate. Yeah. And you've got a global mandate that crosses governments that forces governments to come together and changes the entire dialogue. Yeah, so let me see. I'm sure. Joe, I want to get your impression of this right. But who runs it? So the the people who contribute are the transformation owners? Yep. So who are those people? If you're a pension fund, and you get your business to, that you own to contribute along so Unilever, Unilever, you as Unilever payout, such your members become transformational owners. So you become transformation owners. And Joe becomes transformation owners because you know, you have an investment and pension and saving funding it goes on in that way. And if you go and you go to a shopping mall, and you tap your car, you donate $10 towards the transformation fund, then you become a transformation as transformational owners, which are basically people around the world. And businesses can go along and says you know, I'm going to buy $100 For every employee, and give it to the employee. And I'm going to give it to, you know, I work in Sudan, my businesses in Sudan, and I'm going to buy all the shops that I sell to the $100, so that they the people that can be the owners to and we can do that. And so as the owners, you commit to governance of a fund, which says the total production is governed by climate science. So we bring the IPCC and the World Economic Forum and scientists who already talked to all the governments and we bring in all the experts of energy, which we have within our energy companies, we're going to ask them to conduct your best people. So that we can say how we can produce the most energy and cut emissions. at the pace that we need, we have to cut emissions. So how do we produce where is it that's the best place to produce so that we can cut emissions and cutting emissions ultimately means cutting down fossil fuel use that we do. And then we can then get. So that's who runs it in that way. And then with regards to giving the money out, everybody is eligible. So essentially that, you know, we can have organizations like their organization, many companies have their foundations with a, with activities, and many groups already have their activities have formed one to cat, for example, and so on. So they become eligible, essentially, that people can nominate, and people can group together to form their own in that sense, and go up and go forward and come nominated, and take and get the money a lot. And, and so, and the money is there's no judging over projects, is on a per person basis. That's the whole point is that as we go forward, and we think about our grandchildren, or grandson, grandchildren's grandchildren, what are the innovations that will really help, we have no idea it's gonna come, it's less likely to come from some smart Puffin in Harvard and Stanford SATs to come from some village in India or in Sudan, we have absolutely no clue as to what it is, that will genuinely help us in future. This is this aspect of the veil. Regnerus. So the money apart aside from the pure justice, climate justice, of taking money, which largely wealthier countries spend into our businesses, to give back out across the world, is also the most sensible, innovative thing to do. Because you can now tap into talent everywhere by this and see what happens. So I'm just, I'm just going to notice he's asking who's gonna get paid? So like, just just just know by example? Yeah, exactly. I've spent I've spent a lot of time thinking about what needs to happen just in picket, right. And, and it's obviously all around the world. But one of the big issues is once we hit 1.5, and obviously, the big heatwave has just come through India and Pakistan, it's been a lot hotter here this year than it's ever been. So for me, one of the first things would be, we need to look at the accommodation of people who are living in dwellings where they would die if it hits 1.5, because it's too hot to live, right. So there's a Swiss company that's got these massive bamboo structures that are out outside air conditioners, you know, investing in them, painting the roofs, white, obviously, cleaning, buying the you know, so all the surrounding islands is beautiful island as the tourists go off and have a great time, but there's no way for the rubbish to leave those islands to get back. So we set up a way of managing that getting sand or getting those big crushes to crush bottles, so that, you know, we can use it in construction. So, you know, every community around the world has got these big things that they need to start doing and getting prepared for, especially in the tropical regions, we need to get ready for 1.5 water management. You know, if you want to keep people where they are, we need effective water management place. And there's a huge issue with the rice farmers and you know, they've they lost 10% of the yield this year that they're expecting a bumper year, it's not. So yeah, so it's, there's a, but getting those written and I know that a lot of people will be cynical about this, because there's a lot of corruption in Asia. There's a lot of people with their handout, but it's, you know, so that that part of it, I think, is that is that where you probably seeing the most pushback with what you're talking about? No, actually, the pushback isn't, isn't so much that I mean, the fundamental aspects of what this what this does is to say exactly to to those projects along is that, you know, the people you talk to, they know what they want. They know their own priorities. So this essentially just says, you know, name the project, you know, show them show the project, and it is just provided in terms of funding in that way. It's not trying to judge whether it's better to deal with the plastics, or the roof or the air conditioning, or whatever it is, it's up to the people to decide for themselves. And they know that they have the dignity to be able to choose for themselves. That's what this does. And in that way, it empowers them to feel they can do something about the situation that they have. The pushback comes from people believing that the other person won't actually support it. Which is why this campaign is about wanting to serve. So what we want to do is to have a series of what we call Lazy Sunday afternoons, starting from the 12th of June, where we can pick up people in different parts of the world in all parts of the world to talk about what they can do to bring on the businesses and the investors to talk about why they want to buy the planet a seat at the table so that we can build all of that up all around the world to a big crowdfunding event. Where ahead of cop 27 where we try to see we can get a billion people together to say they want this and investors and businesses to say they will pledge a trillion to do this When we get to that trillion, and if we don't get a billion if we only got 20 people and Euro $2, then you know what? We can't get a mandate? Yeah. But if we end up with 4 billion people and $5 trillion, then we have a real mandate. Yeah, and this is the point, this is about getting a mandate together, bringing in all the concerns people have, so that they know, they can contribute to saying, I want to support having a mandate so that we tackle fossil fuels. We look at it globally, not individually, we apply the best science and knowledge that we can. And we respect the dignity of people on the planet. In doing so. And if we succeed, great. If it doesn't, we will just, you know, have to figure out what next? We'll make sure it succeeds Joe, what what's your impression here? Well, I mean, two things came to mind. One, one is, this is the benevolent hostile takeover of the fossil fuel industry. And to this, this really sounds like a job for crypto. I mean, you know it and I'm not sure if they're more environmental solutions to the crypto as well, you don't have to you don't have to have proof of work mining there. There are other ways to do that. But I just hearing what you're saying the smart contract, the trustless, transactions, all those kinds of things would, would really make for something like this to happen. And if I was to say, which community could raise this money really quick and double time, it wouldn't be the crypto space, I think they could very well back something like this. Especially if you've got the right, the right kind of code to run the whole thing, right? I mean, if it's, if it's rock solid, if it's trustless, then they could rely on what you need to do like this. It's I think it's more viable than then than it sounds. I mean, in terms of like, right now, it sounds like a really big thing. But I can almost imagine it happening. I will say overnight, but in a very short time on crypto in crypto space. It's it's fundamentally at the end of the day, it's about risk management. And I think that's where people kind of get a little a little bit taken aback by the fact that you mentioned trillion dollars, and it sounds an awful lot. And a lot of ways it is but in other ways it is not. So global investments are well in excess of $100 trillion. Global stock markets listed stock markets are well in excess of $60 trillion. For businesses to come up with $1 trillion to contribute here. Like David said, it's a fraction of a percent, or what McKinsey thinks it will cost us the 2050 to go net zero. And it in risk management times it takes the cost upfront. Because if you don't take the cost now, and it doesn't matter in which business you're operating, we might be a retailer or shipper, an IT company, all of your business is going to get so stressed tested over the next couple of years that the likelihood you'll be in business needs to be seriously questioned because of what's going to happen. So get your insurance in place by paying this fee upfront. And we can work out what the right formula is for companies that don't pay dividends in the private sector. And is it turnover? Is it number of employees, I'm sure you know, smarter minds than myself, David will help out of course, we'll come up with a good idea what it should roughly look like. But the important thing here to bear in mind when we talk about the trillion dollars is you are buying yourself the time to deal with this issue before it's all over. And when it's all over your business, you're either going to be seriously impaired and your business model will get stressed tested in ways you haven't even figured out yet. Or you will simply go under. So in a capitalist way you want this fee to be paid out for the planet upfront. So you can at least approach your business on the front foot and not having to be reactive to everything that hits you. Because that's what's gonna happen. is, you know, he's question we're representing the top three countries, companies in you, you take apple, which is about $3 trillion. Basically, in terms of market cap, it's a little bit less of the last night last night, and so so if you actually go along and you think about what this means is is it's very, I think what we describe it Third year in terms of unit, if we did this last year, if investors and businesses did this last year, and investors gave away their more than 1 trillion of dividends, they would have received, they would have made 17% Return on the year, they just would not have noticed it. And, and so in terms of the scale of things, it's actually very, very much affordable and very much affordable, because we're all involved in an economics and the basic part of this goes back to our book, the unsustainable truth, which actually is really good read if anyone's interested in reading. So please, please do because, you know, that's that we really want that to go through as well. It's got lots of thought provoking things for your dinner parties. It's about dessert time, and it's probably good for that. And, and what happens is fundamentally, it we ended up back talking to about philosophical aspects about what is good and evil. And we ended up with going back to 300 ad to this guy called St. Augustine of Hippo. And he said, basically good and bad, good and evil, people want to live without fear. So what's the difference between them, because we all want to live without fear, and fear drives so much of what we do. And he says, the good people are the one who accepts the boundaries and the limits, so that they can live without fear. By accepting that there are boundaries and limits. The bad people, the evil people are the ones who tries to circumvent and outsmart those boundaries and limits. And those ultimately lead them into a life which is fundamentally unsatisfactory, because each time you try to outsmart it, there's something else that you will need to outsmart. And what this proposal does is it says, We have to put the limit to the forefront, which is what taking over all of the fossil fuels is doing. And fossil fuels is unique, you can actually do that, you know, there are lots of things where it's very hard to do that with you can actually do that with the fossil fuels. And within that, then we will find the freedom to be able to choose how we want to manage with the situations that we're going to have. The difficulties are going to come no matter what the question is, Which path actually gives you a choice, which part actually gives you the dignity of being able to make your own choice. And that's what this does. Yeah. And now, to add on to that it's the most not pushback, but the most comments you get from from people who perhaps haven't seen the lie, is that there's still a very small contingent, admittedly, that believe in some sort of wind when we can come up with a smart solutions that doesn't have to force us to change the way we behave and live on this planet. And when you look at the numbers, I just can't see how you can still believe that the pain will come. And it's already if you live in one of the areas in Northern Australia, you you've been hit pretty hard by the floodings, and you know, you have wildfires all over the place. It's already here, it's just gonna get worse. So there will be pain. And somehow, for people like myself, and David comes from the investment side, actually, you know, that if you have a problem with your portfolio, you take the pain upfront, because if you wait, the pain is just gonna keep on compounding and come back and destroy you just take the heat upfront and move on. Because we are not going to come out of this without some form of sacrifice. It's going to be pretty hard to put push back on our energy consumption and there will be some sort of pain. And it's not helpful with politicians promoting the idea that somehow we're going to come out on the other side in a win win, because it's not going to happen. And I hope and I think actually that electorates around the world is getting a little bit more savvy about what I would, on a bad day describe that snake oil salesman, it's this gonna be pain. And it what we see with the cost of living crisis is the planet telling us you've reached the limit of what I can provide at the to cheaper aid, energy prices should be much higher. It's not helpful. We politicians trying to tell people that we're going to hand out more money so you don't have to turn down your heating, or you don't have to drive as much. It's like pain is here. It's very real. It's very tangible. And then we can debate how we're going to distribute the pain, but you need to take the heat up from if you want to approach climate change on the front foot and approaching it on the back foot is a really bad way of having to deal with it. I think it comes right back down to the start of our conversation very, very much in that way, you know, I have probably my lips down down one side of my leg, I got nerve pain that extends down. And this is a physio guy who I've been going with. And he's actually, he's amazing, you know, he's really, really remarkable. So if anyone needs a good physio, and is in London, I can recommend it. But we were having a chat, and he he had, you know, he, we had gone through COVID. And the other day, we were just walking, taking a walk through the park, and they were saying, you know, I've slowed down, you know, I now work three days a week, and I do the time in between essence 20s, right. So as a young person doing that, and you're saying, you know, it's really been life changing, just slowing down getting that perspective. And he's the first person who came along and said, You know what, with all this energy thing, you know, we do need to just turn the power off. But turning the power off means actually, I can just go outside and read my book, and get some natural vitamin D, rather than having to spend the money on popping expensive glutamine D pips in that way. And it's that aspect that actually, all of this, if you want, really want to go back down to the winwin, the central elements of that winwin is addressing what we've been talking about effectively or through, which is what makes us want to get out of bed in the morning, when life is difficult. And still feel actually, you know, we can have a laugh. And, and if we, if we think in those terms, we have a greater chance of coming up with a sensible solutions to the problems we face, individually in our community, and also in the bigger scale things in around the world. You know, the secret the sacrifice comment that you just made? Richard, you know, I often talk about there is sacrifice, and we and we all have to be and people aren't even thinking about that. Right. And often, when you first start to think about it, it is sacrifice, it's, it's a loss of something, it's a tradition that you've held up your entire life that you've recognized needs to go. But actually, once you actually say, I'm ready to do it, you know, and we need, you know, like, communities should be getting rid of all of their cars and getting two or three electric vehicles that the whole community shares, right, that sort of stuff, not everyone replacing with an Eevee, we don't need that that's not a good move we need we need less, less, less shrink, shrink, shrink, right? But there is a sacrifice. But actually, what I found is, once you step into it, is actually a lot more joy, like sitting outside sitting in the sun, not taking a vitamin, because you're getting, you know, I know that people living in colder climates need their energy is in or the I mean, it's really hot here, right? We can't live without air conditioning. But, you know, turning everything off wherever you can building homes that are much more that are cooler in the environment, rather than requiring so much energy to cool them down. And it's big transformation that is sacrifice. And we Yeah, we're not really even starting, and we need a billion people to actually also do that, not just for 10 bucks to be a transformational owner, also look at consciously shrinking their life down in every possible way. Because, you know, the fossil fuels not going to go away, but it does need to gradually fade away, you know, so we can get this other side going. So I love I love your message. It's a it's a solution. It's a message of hope. And I think we can do it. And so tell us what can we do to help you? So what will we need to get to a billion people is to get the message out to people, lots and lots of places. We have created a set of Eventbrite sort of seminars along and you can get it by going in Bewdley, you know, the short URL Bitly slash join our seminars. So I should have put that up somewhere. Or email I said, I want to help at transformation. ownership.org Literally, this is two people at the moment, Richard and myself, and we're living off our savings to do this. So more people we can come in and handrail, so what we need is to bring people together, so that we want to start talking with communities all over the world to start and we've been talking with sort of investor groups, business groups, and so on, but we need to reach out to more of those around yeah. And idea is we start from June 12 with basically what we called lazy Sunday afternoon, if you if you're as old as us, you know, the Small Faces and you might do such a lovely tune, and as as a series of kinda events to really raise the profile of this all around the world in every time so in every village every every city to talk about it. so that we build the momentum to a big event in time for cop 27. So cop 27 is going to happen in November again. So kind of kept coming up to September, we want to be able to have kind of like a global candle who's willing to put their hands up who's going to be there to be in put the hands up, we want to get celebrities on board. So local celebrities, international celebrities, you know, they get they get, we can focus on them more positively than hearing a couple undergoing a terrible, terrible situation. And everybody well, you don't need to watch that. We really don't need to watch that. We are not looking at it, I just, it's just, I'm pushing it every time it goes, I don't care. But then we also had the Met bowl, and apparently six of the of the outfits were are sustainable. And everybody else, you know, not so you know, even that, but there's a lot of a lot of work to do there. Right. And, and, and for us is to say, let's put, let's put the call for those things to be things that we can focus on when we actually come together to say, we have to tackle fossil fuels head on. And the reason and this is really important. This is really, really important, because is this Pakistan has just made made it let pass the law to say that they actually want to encourage Bitcoin mining, if they use renewable energy. Right now, we actually also think as Joe's describing that, you know, there's a lot of a lot of room for something like a blockchain type mechanism in order to have this ownership be democratized across and for the trust to work in that way that can go a long way actually think there's a lot. But when you actually go about using crypto mind renewable energy into Bitcoin mining, what you're doing is you're using renewable for the thing that produces the highest financial return, we actually need the renewables to go to use to produce more renewables. Because when we use the renewables to do to do something new, like Bitcoin mining, we will need to use more fossil fuels to produce our tuples we've actually created even more need for fossil fuels as a result. And we've actually made our climate situation worse. So the Bitcoin mining the Bitcoin miners who say, we are now sustainable, but the whole world is less sustainable as a result. Yeah. And that's what we got to tackle. And that's why we need to do this. And that's why without doing this, everybody will play in what they're now doing is more sustained, sustainable, but the whole world becomes less so. So all right. So yeah, I'm gonna keep sharing what you're doing and making sure people are aware. And we got a whole bunch of more articles to read. But one thing I want to say, and I hope you guys are doing it, it's no momey Do you know no moment? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, my wife has finally agreed with it, we have a god. I have always kept one part of it uncut for many, many years, and you know, what happened last year, or the year before last string COVID. My daughter who is in primary school, you know, she had this exercise to go out and see what's growing there. Outside and with the pod, which is cut. And, you know, we went then there's basically two species, you know, kind of two of plants. And we went over to you the other side over the same area, you know, that's under square meter test that people do in biology. So we went over there and had a look, that was like, 40 different ones. Wow. What a great case. Yeah, perfect with your daughter. And the reason it's important is, as you know, we were talking about the catastrophic insect decline, predominantly in the tropical regions. But in the UK, they've come up with 60% decline since 2004. But in I think, in Denmark, it was 84%. So 80% decline in abundance of flying insects, so you don't mow your lawn so that the plants can grow and the pollinators can do their job. And we all we all benefit, but there's plenty of more stuff in the in the green section of my weekend read, so please do read it. And I'll include the link so that you can find them. We've got it. We've got to support it. It's an idea that time has come. Like if we just let this industry collapse, that it's going to be catastrophic on so many levels, right? Well, it's gonna be an environmental disaster, because it's already happening. Yeah, people who are buying privately oil and those assets that companies just simply go bankrupt, rather than actually close out and close other wells properly. So we've already got examples of that. Yeah. Yeah, the stranded assets which will become? Yeah, I mean, we've seen it all over the US. They've got all these unplugged wells, right? Yeah, yeah. So we've got another environmental disaster leak under the seas illegal places. Yeah. Yeah. So okay, let's finish up. Thank you so much. When you're not paying attention to the climate, and I know like me, you're paying attention to a lot more than most, but anything that you're doing that's keeping you distracted, when you just need that brain break. Or what do you say Richard? Richard is an avid music. Big, big, big music lover. For the record, I was not the one playing guitar on the video that might have happened 40 years ago or so but not anymore. But I'm still very much in touch with music. I think it's the prime example of what human nature is capable of raping when we put their foot. And he saw all sorts, pretty much all across the board except the most trashy form of speed, metal and really modern hip hop, rap. I grew up with the proper hip hop generation, I was very much in tune with that. But I think we've we've moved past the point where a lot of it makes sense anymore. Otherwise, I'm open minded and just classic. Everything goes in the household really. Consumers. Not anymore. I'm afraid. So just Yeah, same. Yeah. And I love walking, I walk. I probably walk like 40 kilometers a week around London, and things like that. So and it's really really lovely doing that. So if anybody is in London and wants to go for a walk, get in touch, you know, game for it. is really nice to see a city. When your walk when you are kind of like the pace of your body. It's yeah, it just completely different. Do you do it in silence? Or do you listen to podcasts? Oh, I love hearing the sound of the city. Yeah, I love I love having nothing blocking out just the sounds out there on things. And you know, obviously I walk along and I think a bit and I dream a bit and all the rest of it. But every now and then you end up to kind of look pausing or something that you've seen before you think wow, you know, that's just amazing. I never noticed that element of it. And so I really, really enjoy that. And if I walk with a friend or something, we just talk, you know, and people along and this is a great thing to do. So that's kind of my friend. And I said, Yeah, that was when Biggie got shot. So I know he's talking about here but not walking, not walking in London. Because only because my boys are into it. And I watched the there's a Netflix series on the hip hop generation, which I found absolutely fascinating. Have you ever watched that, Richard? Yeah, I have. Yeah, it's great, great, great series. Anyone with an interest? Even a vague interest in the area? It's an eye opener. Yeah, it really is. I walked away with the sense of the poetry, which I did never had before. And so I actually, before that, I was just like, not even listening to it. Then I was like, wait a minute, I should, I should pay a little bit more attention. Apart from the music, my boys playing the car and every woman's or a beach or Joe, what about you? I've been I've been in the world of podcasts I dipped into because I've been doing a lot of trading recently. And I mean, the biggest thing that really makes a difference is your psychology. Right? So I have decided to follow chat, chat with traders, which is an Australian podcast that got some 200 over episodes, and basically live in speaking to some of the world's most successful traders talking about all kinds of things from the world, the big horrible losses that happen in your life to things like how some of the most successful traders don't even check the p&l. So it's been it's been inspiring. Maybe that's a podcast you guys should be on the morning with a with a recap of how the markets have traded over Asians finishes the day with a recap of how the markets have been over in the US. Yeah. Happy to kick What do you think Joe? I mean, you think I think I think definitely something makes me interested in now they talked about all kinds of interesting things. I mean, they they talk about the the the work that goes on behind the scenes for creating the high speed, you know, trading networks and microwave links. They talk about it's quite an interesting plot. There are things that they speak about. So it could, it could well be something that they might want to talk about. But I think I think this is more like more more along the lines of what, you know, an NPR audience, or it's not as much more long those shows, I mean, what the shows are looking for, in terms of, you know, Global Ideas like this isn't, I mean, it's a great idea. I mean, I, I certainly think you should be here, you should have a TED talk on the stage, you know, on a TED stage soon enough. You just gotta decide between the two of you who it'll be. But together, together, I mean, we like Ernie and wise or we're off and marketing wise. Guys in the Muppets, you know, the two guys on the balcony at the end? Yeah. Nice. Alright, so I rewatched fantastic, fun guy, which is something that I, I think I need to watch it every few months. Have you seen that? Now, but I'm hearing a lot. Yeah, heard about it. Okay. Everyone needs to watch this. If you care about the environment, you need to watch this. Because it's, it's the web of life. You know, that this whole story. But the other thing that we've been watching is midnight, Asia, I think I've got the name, right. So basically, it's this documentary, again, only on Netflix, I don't have that much time. So I never run out there going around the major cities of Asia and telling the story of the unique stories of these cities. So Tokyo, Korea, Bangkok. We're about to start Taipei. And it's all these really quirky stories, but it's unique. It's entrepreneurs, it's young people looking at old traditions, and bringing them back and making and making them fresh. But it's also given me a real insight into Asia. Because you know, when you live in a city or a country, you get a sense of the spirit of the people fairly quickly, especially if everyone speaks the same language. But in Asia, like even Singapore, where it is English speaking, it was, it was it was hard, right? It was hard for me to make sense of it. Like people don't sleep enough in Asia, the kids don't go to bed until midnight, you know, and I just couldn't even get my head around. Why would any parent want their kids still up, you know, but then they'd be up at five, six o'clock in the morning to go to school. And I'm like, when do these people sleep? And it talks about that a lot about that about how life happens at night, because you work hard during the day. And I found it. Like, if you have an opportunity to watch it is absolutely fascinating. Absolutely fascinating, and the entrepreneurial stories as well. People doing really unique things and taking chances like what we were talking about before, you know, just setting up really cool little businesses on the side of streets that become these incredible success stories. So yeah, I found that really inspiring. So recommend it sounds like it sounds like we should try and get hold of the producers and talk to them about just getting them part of the transformation ownership and getting them to reach out into all these people in Asia. Yeah. Okay. So that's what we need to do someone find someone who can show this story in a visual way. Yeah, yeah. All right, let's, let's see what we can do. We share an idea, but you need to get in touch with the Obamas. Yeah, we would love to I think, you know, as I said, we're two people. So anybody who can help us with a connection to anybody else, is going to be fantastic. So, you know, so so it's all going to work in that way, you know, because someone knows, Greta can get who can you know, who can actually message her directly or something, it'd be fantastic if someone knows, or the bombers or anyone else. So we just need to have people. What they can do is simply to talk about the idea with someone else and say, Look, can you who can you know? Who can or even if we don't know anyone? You know, we just want to get a billion people on board. So if there's a show you light, who is it? Can you do you know the person someone's going to know someone along there. And then we can just get it out there. And as we said, you know, the idea is, we want to bring a series of events, lazy Sunday afternoon events, a bit like this, basically, where we can talk about actually what it means in terms of the challenges that we face, the genuine situation, and what it means about who owns it, and how that governance and trust can work and deal with all those things. And talk about, you know, for the businesses themselves to come forward and be honest and say, We all believe in net zero, but none of us actually have a clue how we're going to do. Yeah, and be able to be honest, and non defensive about that by saying, You know what, we are in an environment where everybody fails to say, everybody knows your name. And I'm just going to quickly look up those words from cheers because they really are great, actually. From cheers lyrics and then I'm going to try and read it out with you know, making you way in the world today takes everything you've got. Taking a break from all your worries sure would help a lot putting the you'd like to get away. All those nights when you've got no light, the check is in the mail, and your little angel hung the caterpillar tail. And your third fiance didn't show. Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name. And they're always glad you came, you want to be where you can see our troubles are all the same. You want to be where everybody knows your name. You know, it's not a world where we are without troubles is that we know they're there. But we all know each other. And that's what the idea of these, you know, lazy Sunday afternoon things is to be able to face our climate challenge as a common set of realities, knowing we all want the best out of each other. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Because, you know, I think one of the big crises I feel coming very quickly at us is the lack of hope and hopelessness and the Doom as you know, they're really starting to take over and we need to, we need to help people get their minds strong, you know, people have, people have really struggled these last couple of years, but what actually is coming is going to be even bigger. And we've got to, we've got to get our mind strong, and we're going to take care of each other. And, you know, if you're in the mental health space, be out there talking to people sharing your knowledge, give it away help, you know, but we have to, you know, we definitely have to help each other get strong, because we've got some incredible like you said, Richard, we're going to suffer. And I think it's going to be a tough journey. And you just need to build resilience. Because if if you don't have resilience, then this can be really, really, really tough, and it will be tough anyway. But if you build up that resilience, you have a much, much better chance of coping with what's above. Yeah, exactly. All right, David. Richard, thank you so much. We've gone we've gone well past the two hour mark. Really? It looks like we've had some comments here. And thanks. Thanks to everyone for tuning in. Just really appreciate it. And yeah, let's all just come together and do this. We can do this. You know, we've got solution. You just got to. Yes, yeah. It's it's been a pleasure. And thank you so much for giving us this chance. And thank you, Joe. And it's really interesting hearing from what you what you have to say, as well. And I hope that we will get people together. It's really easy. It's just a billion people and trillion dollars. Come on. Yeah, we could do it. And to be sure, you don't want you don't just want 1000 people and a trillion dollars. Right? The point is, you're on the map. You want the master people as well, billion people, you need the billion people to say we want to sort out our fossil fuels, because that will give a mandate across the whole world across government. Yeah. Yeah. And it's the billion people, if you have a billion people, you have the trillion dollars. Yeah, and I've been using the hashtag 1 billion people a fair bit lately, because we do we need a billion people for this, we need and we need a billion people and just to change their ways, you know, so that, so that we have a chance. So it's not just investing in it, it's also accepting it. Because, you know, the mindset, some of the things that I've got in my weekend reads, you know, it's, it's, there's such a low level of awareness. And that's why this is, that's why we call it transformation ownership. Because once you tackle this along in this way, it will transform the way we think. And for the billion people in proportion to the people of the world is what the people will look at emergent systems and emergent change considers essentially that critical level, where you begin to actually tackle genuine, emergent changes in a system. So we get this, we'll have what you want. And Ray will be there. All for you. Cheering it on. All right. So that's it live and what was that? We'll see you guys next week. Next week. We have the lovely, the very lovely currently on and yeah, just think you guys really appreciate it and hope everyone enjoyed it. See you John. Thank you, Andrea. It's been a pleasure. It's been great. Awesome. Cheers.