Will you stop supporting live animal shows?

The reason the world is in such a state when it comes to the environment is simple - we have become disconnected from the source of life – the planet which sustains us. Since 1970, two-thirds of global populations of mammals, birds, amphibians, reptiles and fish have been lost on average, according to the World Wildlife Fund. Environmental destruction - caused by deforestation, unsustainable agriculture and the illegal wildlife trade - is a leading factor in the decline. 

These numbers can be overwhelming and make us think, what can I do? Well, how we spend our money matters, and my friend Vicki Kiely encourages us all to reconsider visiting zoos and aquariums, because she believes it is inhumane to treat animals this way. 

An activist for many years, I have such great admiration for the work Vicki does and encourage everyone to really think about this and then act. If you care about nature, speak up and if you have the courage that Vicki does, get involved where it makes sense to you.

Thank you so much Vicki for being a voice for the voiceless. I admire you tremendously and I know the work you do is not easy. I will always have your back.

You can get in touch with Vicki

VK Performers Studio, teaching adults & children age 3-18yrs

Vicki Kiely | LinkedIn

Articles to read

Mini Monitors Return to The Cove | Dolphin Project

Zoos are outdated and cruel – it’s time to make them a thing of the past | The Independent | The Independent 

Zoo battles to save dozens of species from extinction by cryogenically freezing genetic samples

To get in touch with me, Andrea Edwards

Websites https://andreatedwards.com/ and https://uncommon-courage.com/ 

My book Uncommon Courage, An Invitation mybook.to/UncommonCourage

And the workbook mybook.to/UncommonCourageAction

And my Facebook Group Uncommon Courage https://www.facebook.com/groups/442905877003333 

#UncommonCourage #VickiKiely

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

Hello, my lovelies. It's Andrea Edwards. Welcome to Uncommon courage. Today, I want to talk to somebody who is extremely passionate about being a voice for the voiceless. And this is not an area that I have sort of represented in any way not because I don't care about it. It's just that I've always felt that if I can help people understand how they need to change, to be more in alignment with Earth, we will draw the same conclusion and understand that we need to respect all life on Earth. So that's always been my thing. But I have always been surrounded by people who care about animals and sea life. And I love them and I love their passion. And today, I want to introduce you to the very, very fabulous, Vicki Keeley. Welcome. Thanks so much for having me on the podcast, it's an honor. And it's always an honor to speak up for my my fellow animals on the planet that don't have a voice, as you said, the voiceless. I've such tremendous admiration for what you do. And I know that it's not easy, right? You and thank you. Yeah, not easy, but you attract some pretty nasty stuff. I mean, I attract some pretty nasty stuff, too. And it's, it's hard. But I think when you're driven by such a deep and powerful intention of creating change and awareness, I think you get yourself out there and you do it regardless of the backlash that can come with it. Right? Oh, absolutely. When you know, it's when you know, it's right. Like there's no there is no stopping me. When it comes to this. I stand firm. There'll be no convincing me otherwise, I guess put it that way. I know I'm coming from deep truth. And from a spiritual level, even I know that I'm doing the right thing and the work that I do, everyone takes out that message on board, you know, when you're doing something difficult, I know my husband gets quite anxious sometimes when I go out there with some of my messages, because he knows that when I do it, I'm opening myself up to all sorts of shit sometimes, and I have to accept the ship because it's not about those people. It's about it's about everybody. Everybody knows better or can do it better, you know? Warriors and yeah, yeah, I faced a lot of that. Yeah. You have I've seen it. So tell me first of all, let's introduce you to everybody. Give us the story of Vicki. So my name is Vicki Kylie and I am an Irish expat living here in Phuket in Thailand, and I've been here for eight years. I came from immigrant parents who immigrated to Canada from Ireland in the late 70s, when all the troubles were going off in Ireland, and there was economic crisis. So you know, in the past, and now we're called expats. But back in those days, it was just immigrants. You know, it's just fancy words for Yeah, I grew up in Canada than Saudi Arabia. And then my dad got a job in Saudi Arabia when I was but when we moved there, and then I went to boarding school in Ireland and university in Ireland, so and my background really was in the performing arts from about 13. I kinda knew I wanted to be on stage and actually even 11. I did my first play in Saudi Arabia at 11. We did Bugsy Malone. And yeah, so the performing arts kind of took has taken me on my journey and continues to be my career and my calling, as I say, and I love it. Absolutely. Like it's passion beyond passion. But on the sidelines, always I've had a deep love of animals since I was little, I'd be bringing in frogs and mice and tried to rescue everything. And I was obsessed. Yeah, I'm obsessed with my poor mother. So yeah, that's me. So I've got a performing arts school here in Phuket called V k performance studio and I teach singing and drama are my main main things. There's also dance on offer and music lessons and stuff, but those are my my main what I studied in college and that and you're you have a great influence on my boys as well. Oh, thank you. I love this is the thing. Like I love working with kids. They're so they're so open, you know, compared to adults, they're much easier to not to influence. I don't want to say that word, but I don't know, I forget I've a very strong connection with youth and animals. Yeah, but you've also at the same time been an activist and you've done a lot of work. So tell us about your activism and where it started. So you know, Andrea, I was the same as most people. You know, I'd love to go to the zoo like we were offered a day at you know, I'd say to my parents, I take me to the zoo today I wanted to see animals I said I was obsessed. And then we moved when I moved to Hong Kong with my ex husband, who's the father of my children. We moved to Hong Kong and my sister I was crazy about dolphins. So when I was in boarding school, all the posters on my wall were dolphins. I didn't alarm clock that was dolphins. I was like obsessed. And my sister said you have to watch this documentary called The Cove. It's just won an Oscar and I was like, what's it about? And she goes, Oh, it's about these dolphins being slaughtered in a little town in Japan. So I didn't watch it. I was like, I don't want to look at that guidance. The last thing I want to see and eventually about a year later, it came on Apple TV or something and I just sat down and I watched it and I cried from start to finish and there's a guy that main the main he's not an actor, he's the activist Richard a very, very covary he's the protagonist in the in the the movie and he used to be the dolphin trainer for flippers remember Flipper the show. He trained to the five dolphins that played the role of flipper. And when the show was canceled, the dolphins were brought to I think Miami SeaWorld, I think was SeaWorld. I could be wrong though. So sorry, Rick, I've got that wrong. And one of the dolphins Kathy he had a very strong connection and reminds me of my connection with the elephant I work with with Santa and he went to visit Kathy and he got into the water with her and she swam into his arms and he tells the story in the film, and she just closed her blowhole and sank to the bottom of the pool. So she died literally in his arms. She committed suicide. So there dolphins are they're not automatic graders like us. Every breath is a choice. She gave up because she'd been living in this concrete pool with her. They even stopped communicating because it echoes off the concrete onto their, onto their ears. And this film anyway, nevermind that part. Then it shows these dolphins being slaughtered and captured in this town called Taiji in Japan. So I don't know, I manifest stuff in my life. And I said, I watched that film, and I'm bawling, crying. And I was like, I'm going to work with this man, this Oscar winning man who's incredible. And I literally chased them down and I got on to fit their Facebook page. And I was like, I want to come to Japan and what can I do to help and I'm like, I don't want to be just, you know, helping in the background. I want to I want to be on the ground. So they invited me to the code for the August 31. The Hunt start on September 1, they always do a big day on August 31. At the beach, they're all the activists come and we did we deliver a petition to the mayor of tait, Tai Ji, which are signatures we had like that first year I went, we had like 3 million signatures or so that we deliver to them and never makes a difference, unfortunately, and I continue to return to Tai Ji I think I went nine times in total to document the hunting which is brutal. You're standing there with a camera in your hand and I'm trying to stay calm and report on watching these beautiful intelligent animals being drowned in their own blood and unreached. Below me it's It's brutal. So honestly, yeah, I think most people have now seen that to an extent especially because it was part of see spirits see so tight. Yeah, that, you know, the words got now you know, the thing that I struggle with. I mean, obviously, the justification for it just doesn't make any sense. The thing that I struggled with is for a change like that to happen. It has to for me, it seems like it has to happen within Japan. So this is a thing now we've managed to have because of COVID. The us as we call it, we were called monitors, that was the name we would use this and on our shirts and whatever. And we will be followed by the police always like I'd be in the car. There's police behind me. There's like, you know, plainclothes police were never out of their side. They're documenting everything we do. And now since COVID, we can't go there as foreigners and the Japanese activists have taken over. And it's just incredible to see like all the work that we put in that now that these people are not afraid before, like when in the early years, when I went to the Japanese activists, I think they were scared off as well. And you know, the Japanese government, it's quite, it's not this free world that we grew up in there. So for that, for a Japanese person to speak out, it takes a lot of courage. And you know, the, they're very, they don't speak out. They're such a polite culture. So it's just, it's mind blowing to see these guys on the ground doing the work that we did and doing it better. And they're reaching the people that need to hear it. It's yes, they're doing incredible work. I mean, nothing has changed so far, but there's definitely more awareness. What do you think it's just not changing? They're not getting the message, because that's a good part of the pandemic, then, you know, these people have stepped into the role, but why is it just not changing why? Money is plus, there's so much there's so much switch lies, and there's so much cover up. And, like if you go to SeaWorld, for instance, you can see there's a Lolita now she's dying, she's been in captivity her entire life, she's dying. There's massive petitions going all around the world to get this orca back to her or at least buy into a seat pen, and they'll tell you oh, they live longer in captivity, they eat better they get medicine. These are they they fill people with nonsense. They don't tell you that the orc has been starved to do the trick. The only way they're going to do these tricks is if they're hungry. They don't tell you these animals. This is not like an elephant even in a tracking camp. This isn't an animal who is constantly hungry, constantly starved. In order to complete these tasks that these these ridiculous stupid tasks like wearing hats and flipping hoops on there. These intelligent animals reduced to circus clowns. It's just makes me so angry. You think there's a lot of lies in the back to your question why things aren't changing? Oh, I don't know what's wrong with us. I don't know what's wrong with us. It's money for sure. It's a huge, huge industry that the dead ones like what are they doing with the dolphins? And if pilot whales come into the cove, so I was at one hunt where they drove in 70 pilot wells it took five days to get As part of animals, and they drove the pod in, and then they dropped down, they put a net net at the cove. And then they put another network side. And these, this pilot was, oh my god, they clustered into the middle of the cove in the water and the matriarch, she's swimming around. And while we're, I've, we've got all these videos, actually, she's swimming around the outside of her pod, making sure all the juveniles and babies are pushed to the middle. And then all of a sudden we see them they formed like this big, like, like a bullet and they start ramming the nets as a group, like I'm going, they've, they've, they've been checking the nets like they're so intelligent. And then when the day was day two, they took the matriarch It took four of the divers to get her to the beach, and the juvenile males were ramming. They were attacking the divers, I'd never seen anything like it. These animals are smokeable so smart, tacking the divers. And then because it's pilot whales, even though they're true dolphin they're not a whale. They're not like a baleen. Well, they're, they sell this as well, neat. So a pilot whale is worth a hell of a lot more money than, say, a striped dolphin in the meat industry. And they have it at weddings and stuff like whale meats, a big thing in Japan for special occasions. So it's a cultural thing that we this is why the Japanese activists, we really need them to help shift the culture, you know, as we've seen work with a Super Shark fin, you know, when in Singapore going to a Chinese wedding, you know, they'd be these food in front of you. And that's like, Oh, my God. I couldn't believe it. And it was, it's changed. There's been a lot of movement towards that change. So incease Pharisee, they talk a lot about the fact that the killing of dolphins because they've passed, that's one of the excuses the fishermen use, but and it's also sort of covering up the fact that the killing almost to extinction, the tuna, well, this is like they're blaming the dolphins for the tuna. And I'm like, come on, you guys are taking how many, you know, tons of fish out of the ocean every day and you're blaming a dolphin who might eat like three or four tuna in between them in a day. I don't know. I don't know how much they ate. And I noticed that in the markets opposite where we stay in Japan, there's a fish market right opposite the hotel where they bring the tune in and the sharks, so they you'll see the dead shark. When I first started going in 2014. The tuna were bigger than me. And now the last time I was there, the tuna were like half my size. So they're they're just not even letting the tuna aren't even making it to maturity. It's very scary. It is it is I mean, if we, if we knocked the top predators off, you know, which is getting closer and closer to reality, the sharks tuna, we are going to have dead oceans and Yeah, well, exactly. We kill the ocean, we kill us. It's just as simple as that. So anyway, it's remarkable to me one of the things that you've picked me up a couple of times on and I never mind having my knowledge challenged. Yeah, is I've always had a belief that zoos and aquariums ah, to me it's like museums with archaeological treasures. Yeah. If you left a lot of the archaeological treasures in countries that have had so many problems for so many decades, we would have lost those treasures. So for me, even though it's one's living and one's not Zuza have the chance to potentially even save animals in the future. So while they're extinct in their in their home environment, at least they're not extinct. Why in the world? And actually, yeah, okay, so I'm still pretty question to you. So humans are coming to extinction? Would you like to be put in? Would you like just to, for people to be able to see a real live human being? Would you be willing to live in a cage for the rest of your life? No. Cost, right. So I'm like, That's the cost of, and a lot of these zoos, they claim that they are repopulating wild, the wild populations, but they're not they don't I think it's less than 5% of zoos globally, put any animals back into the wild, then they have these DNA databases that they say but these DNA databases have genetic databases. I mean, is this really a good enough reason to keep animals in an unnatural environment like Rob double their natural behaviors? So I'd see for me, I'm like, let them go extinct. Like, there's a bit of that for me, I'd rather be extinct than in a box. Or, you know, just recently, Devon announced that they've begun cryogenically freezing genetic samples of endangered animals. That was just a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. So you're not in support? No, I think if they're putting them I mean, there have been programs where animals have been put back into the wild that they've been bred and released into what it does happen what I'm saying these zoos that people go to, there's telling you that because they want to attract you in then they want they use the word they throw around words like education, conservation, but really it's the smokescreen for for entertainment and for money, I'm sorry. And then like, if if I could see that these these are a yes. If you are, if you are putting what she says back into Africa. Absolutely. You've got my respect. All the research I've done and I've done a lot. It's very, very rare. Okay, I think sanctuaries are doing this. There's another way to there is another way to have captive animals. We have we, at least for the next, you know, while we're going to have to have captive animals. My big thing now is respect with the elephants here. My next movement is going to be just Stop the breeding, stop reading elephants in captivity that that's going to be my next call out. I have changed my views on zoos and aquariums since I met you. You're having an influence modelling. That's it. I don't judge anyone. I just want to keep people with the truth. And like you can learn more from David Attenborough sitting on the couch with your child and watching David Attenborough doesn't go to the zoo to teach you about animals on and like, he doesn't go to London Zoo, he goes to Borneo. He goes to Africa. He goes, he gets and that's where I mean, obviously, there's most of the world cannot afford to go to Africa and take a safari. Let's face it. I know ricovero always says he's like two less people studied paleontology because there's less there's no live dinosaurs to study. It's what so why is it the same? If you have an interest in wildlife, go and see wildlife? You don't need to go to a zoo? pursue that interest? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, not all zoos are the same. I remember going to the Beijing zoo in 1995. And always upset because you know, I'm from Australia, we have these big stews, and yeah, wildlife parks and stuff. And, you know, when I think of the city zoos I, I think they've done the best that they can with the space that they've got, but it's not, it's not a happy environment for the animals that are behind the bars, right, but I'm as happy as they can be, which isn't good enough. And obviously, Singapore Zoo for my boys with me, you know, growing up that, you know, Steve used to take them all the time. And Steve Irwin used to be there. And he really held the Singapore Zoo in high regard. But in Beijing, I just remember standing there and these kids have got sticks in their poking these animals in the eye. And I've got tears running down my face, and the kangaroo enclosure was so small, and I grew up with kangaroos. He didn't even know what I know how far they go. I know how much space they need. And, but just that real lack of respect towards the animals and that lack of compassion towards the animals. I found it really hard. And then many, many years ago, I think it was 2009 The boys were tiny. We took them to the Phuket to and I was so horrified by that place, the alligator pit, the Tigers. In fact, just recently year at the tiger, I saw a lot of people posting pictures of themselves with tigers, right? Yeah. And I just went Oh, really don't do that. That's not a good message to be sending out to the world, you know, but we rescued Milo from that Zoo. Milo the Ranga Tang. I rescued her from that too. A few years ago. It's it was it's hell on her. Yeah. Those Tigers now they've been taken to World Wildlife friends, Thailand, I was get the name wrong. It's Edwin weeks place. He's unbelievable. Like the work he does. There's people out there doing incredible things. He has a wildlife sanctuary. This is what I mean, go and visit these places. Of course, the Tigers are not getting to hunt and they're not what they are. They're not being gawked at all day. They're not having to get their picture taken. They're left to roam and as big enclosures as I suppose they we can manage. That's the thing, Andre, I think we need to start phasing it out. I'm not saying like I think support sanctuaries, like Yeah, the tiger selfies, the elephant, even the like elephant bathing. I used to be for that. And I'm like, no, why? Because I've seen more elephants, and they don't want to get in the water. So they have to be forced against their will to get into the water with people, for people to have their bloody Instagram wrecks my head. I've been there. So I've tried to be empathic. Okay, there is another way, there is another way. Steven, I arrived at a wedding on an elephant and I, it was a few years after that, I realized that that was the wrong thing to do. And I hit a baby. Right? Yeah. And, and I think that's an important part of the journey that people do shame people for, for doing things because they're not aware of them yet. And it's not about shaming, it's just we just got to create more awareness. And I don't know, I just think we're so disconnected from the source of life, you know, and we're so disconnected from Earth, which is the source of life. I think it's obvious in so many ways, but our lack of respect towards all life on Earth, beyond humanity, is something that I'm incredibly concerned about, because it doesn't feel like it's changing. People are staying in their tribes. They're, they're fighting from their corner. You know, I got called a Marxist the other day by somebody, I was massively trolled on the no show. And I was like, if you feel the need to give me a label, all I want to do is create a better future for my kids. And I think, evolving, we need to evolve to a higher level of consciousness. And when we get there, we're not going to feel the need to abuse life around us, right. That's kind of my hope. And I think we have so much to learn from the animals actually, about family and how they take care of each other. And like there's so there's so much that you're never going to see in a zoo that you'll see in the wild or that you'll I don't know, I get the fascination. That's the thing. I understand it. I'm like a fight. Like when I'm in chatter check in Bangkok. I can hear the little puppies Of course, I want to walk by the window and look at them and I'm like, No, we don't support this but I understand the fascination and the desire to be there. I think for me, it didn't really hit me until I saw the slaughter in Japan. I didn't know the penny didn't truly drop until then. And then I went holy shit. What are we doing as a species? We are disgusting. discretes Were the only wasn't there like a mirror was it in the London Zoo? When you walk into London Zoo, there's a mirror and it says the most dangerous animal on the planet. And you're looking at yourself, and it's so true, decimate everything. And do we continue to accept that role? And that's the thing I struggle with. It's like there seems to be so many people either fighting to continue as we've always been, even though we're basically destroying our ability to live on the planet, or people just not paying attention at all. I think a lot of it is just complete lack of empathy, apathy, just apathy. And in the sand, yeah, people are just caught up and they're like, this is a thing. Like I've seen it with like people here. They'll go to aquariums here, and I'm like, you've got a coral reef down in Orange Beach, come on, like take your kids snorkeling. It's and there's also it's a thing to do with your kids. What do we do? Well, we can go to the zoo, it's a day out. It's a way to keep children entertained. So I get it, I get the draw, and the magnetism of it. But my job now is just to try to show people it might be a little bit hotter outside, it might be more uncomfortable to go for a hike. But the rewards are so much better seeing to see a snake. And when I went wherever I can, if I see a snake in the tree, and we're on the river, I'm like, that's where I want to see a snake. Like how cool is that? We got to see a snake today in the tree. And even if we just see one, it's that adventure and that rush of like, are the wild monkeys come down from the trees? You know? And yeah, it's nothing beats it. It doesn't get old doesn't get old. It could happen every day. And I'm still gonna be as odd and wowed by it. And yeah, I don't I don't. But I know I'm an animal person. I know not everybody feels this way. And they're scared of snakes, and they don't want to be in the outdoors. It's really tricky. It's really tricky reaching people. It's hard. So you're doing some work with some elephants in Thailand. The elephants through this pandemic have really suffered no tourists. No money means no food. I mean, there was one story of these elephants that walk from one end to Phuket to another, they rent them out. And like you rent an elephant, put it on a property. And that's how you start to claim your land. I mean, elephants here are used in so many ways. And there are a lot of them are sent back into the logging industry. Yeah, yeah, the working and tourism industry. So both sides of it. And I know that you're being very involved in the US. So tell us, give us some context about elephants in Thailand and how they used and then what you've been doing so well. Yeah, what the tourists don't know. So for the people who have not been to Thailand or whatever. Elephants are a huge commodity here. They're supposed to be a national treasure, but they certainly aren't treated that way. So usually the elephant tourism industry is huge. There's tracking there's bathing there's photos, there's you know, the riding on for your wedding photos. I mean, it's endless you can have an open you know, I at one point Nikki Beach Club had a baby elephant open with a carrying the big guy on his back carrying a bottle of champagne through to people's tables, like it's I've seen it all here. So for these elephants to be used in this way, they're very big animals. And they're very, very smart. They have to break their spirit, my guess much in the way they break the horses spirit, but it's much more violent. They can use fire whip, they'll tie them up, they'll starve them beat them. This is when they're really young. So they're beaten into submission. And then they wonder when these animals grow older, and they go crazy, and they attack people like I have a deep respect for elephants when I'm around them every week. And I've really learned to like the male elephant should never be involved with anybody. There's super, super dangerous anyway, it's really depressing and they eat a lot. So to keep an elephant in Phuket in passuk It's different because we have the jungle so we could bring them into the forest to eat when it was really bad when with no money, but here oh my god, I think 70,000 baht and elephant month apparently with their food care, like the hoods all that like would cost easy. What's that in? I don't know, transfer us? I don't know three 4000? Yeah, I think it's like that. Maybe that's for to like it for us because we're in a different situation up there. But I started I met I went to the sanctuary. We went up to calstock When I first moved to Thailand, which is this, it's the National Park, and it's in the north. So it's in the mountains. It's jungle and rivers and lakes. It's not beach side, but it's beautiful. And I asked the lady, we were staying in this place called our jungle house. And I said is there any like ethical elephant places? And she said no, but there's a guy that has a camp here. And he really wants to change. He really wants to find ways to help. He they just bought the house since they were new to the industry. And he I went to meet him and I took a translator with me and it was amazing. He was really open to me helping him so for five years, I helped him change his programs for it. So he was just doing tracking and we offered bathing because at the time I didn't you know I thought that was okay. It was better than tracking. And slowly but surely surely we moved to two properties we moved elephants to where the river is so that they had access to water and it's just gorgeous and such a privilege for me to be able to work with these guys. We really really struggled through COVID like we lost our HootSuite one point we had one mahu taking care of four elephants. We have two male bulls that are both good. Well, no the older one is not that aggressive. Our 12 year old bull is Super aggressive. He's almost killed people before, so he can't be anywhere near our guests. And he has to be tied up because he's so dangerous and nobody would help me. We were trying to raise money to build an enclosure. But for it to be strong, it's just been a nightmare. Like it's a nightmare. But that all there's also the good side of it. And as I said, we were really lucky we can bring the elephants into the jungle they can eat or people who had farms would let us come they cut the grass, like that the elephants come and eat the grass like in that for food. It was alright, but yeah, the elephants in Thailand through this pandemic, so many died. So many like lecture lard. In Chiang Mai, she's rescued so many that were emaciated. And the ones on the way to the big border here, like just, it's just shocking that their national treasure is treated like they're chained up. Like I don't know if any of you guys listening have seen it. Sometimes they'll be on double chains, they'll have a chain on their front foot and the chain on one of their back feet, and they can't move all day, they're standing in their own urine and getting infections and like the list of horror stories just goes on and on. I mean, if people don't pay for the elephants like to go trekking or get a photo or whatever, then it's very difficult for the for the moose to actually feed the animals. So it's how do we catch 22. But it's such a catch 22 This is the thing. So I've been thinking about this a lot. And this is my whole phase everything out thing and stop breeding. And we've got to give these people incentives. And something else to do. This is why at least with this sanctuary, the more hoops they have to do harder half the work they have to do. And usually, I'd like to stay with the elephant, let it eat. That's all you have to do. You don't have to make it to anything. So they're really happy them what's working for us. And I think if these camps could move more towards that kind of advertising and marketing that you can just come and see the elephants and be with them. Such a great privilege to stand next to one and walk with it than to be on top of it or Yeah, it's really it's broken my heart seeing what's happened across Thailand in the last two years, we were really lucky and I pushed hard as you know, to raise funds. So not everybody had a foreign or behind their camp. You know what I mean? Pushing and I'm so lucky, I already had access to so many animal lovers through my work with dolphin project and I got unbelievable support from across the planet to help calstock elephant sanctuary. So I'm so thankful to everyone who sent money and even just shared the posts and you know, even just sharing makes a difference. There's there's so many good people out there to like say we're not completely fucked. Good humans. I know you've had some incredible support. So you lost one of the female elephants, right? Yeah, we were renting. We were renting her unfortunately. So her owner wanted her back. And they had lied to us. They told her she was like, she told us she was 46 and we found out she was 65. And I think they put her to work. I it's just off that broke my heart. I don't so and a woman in Hong Kong, she won't I won't say her name because she just she wants to remain unknown, but she was going to buy sin and the sin is the one that got taken away. And the owners were like, oh, yeah, you can have her for a million baht. But then they never they never brought her back. So we kind of had to give up. There was nothing we could do. And she said, Well, let's find let's help another elephant. So we found Maroua which is our newest elephant arrived a few months ago. matter why we come tourist or come money. I wanted to change your name. And the guy's like she's had this name for 40 years like so we got model why she had been in fantasy as a baby fantasy is this animal show and acrobatic show and Phuket. I've never been I wouldn't dare. But I know that the animals are kept in her rific conditions chained up. And then when she got too big for that she was put into the logging industry for a while. And then she came back to Phuket. And she was tracking on concrete. She'd never been on grass in her life. But she got to the she took the 12 hour truck ride I'm sure she didn't know what was happening. Like we've got video footage of her getting on the truck. And she got to the sanctuary and didn't like was look at the way she was walking. Everything was so funny. She didn't know what to do with herself. And then she laid down in the grass and slept for six hours, which is so it's really long an elephant only sleeps for two or three hours a day. And I she can't date and then they brought her to the river and it's beautiful. You can just hear us rolling in the river. She never experienced anything like this. So this amazing human being in Hong Kong gave this lot this life this newly selected this animal that had been living in torture since her birth. So yes, there are some insanely beautiful souls out there helping helping they have she helped me do this great, great deed. Yeah. So like I would love to rescue more. That's kind of the future for me. Well, I suppose for everyone, you know, if you've got an opportunity to influence change, right, because that's what we need to start doing. And obviously, you know, we can't just stop it overnight. We have to we have to help support the people. Because that's the thing, you know, a lot of what's going on in Africa since the pandemic began. There's been so much returned to the old ways poaching, how desperate people are desperate but absolutely are you know, and that environmental tourism was really building And bringing life to so many of these countries, and then they lost it overnight. And I think a lot of people, they miss that they miss that bigger impact that's happening around the world. And it's been a really big frustration for me, because I see wealthy countries, everyone's protesting, and they're missing the suffering, the tangerine suffering that's been happening in countries like Thailand, no one wants to know, none of us want to hear it. Look at discomfort, you know, it's only like, I made a choice to do that. I'm like, I'm going to take a long, hard look, and I want the truth, then I'm a truth seeker and a truth share. And I do it with I try to do it with love and empathy and understanding. And then when I think education is really important, but as you said, when people are desperate, we're capable of great things when we're desperate, you know, all of us. How many daughters have been sold? To feed the family, right? Don't me, oh, people can't comprehend anyone. They can't comprehend that because they've never been desperate enough to put themselves in a situation where they would be forced to sell a child, right. And that's the thing, which is the people we're reaching are mostly privileged people because they have a computer or a phone, like how many millions don't have that, like, I think what you're doing is just incredible, like you're doing that you're attacking the whole globe. It's insane. And I feel like I've got I think I went from the dolphins and thinking I'm gonna save all of them. And now I'm like, Oh, my God, if I can just like, keep my little elephants happy little, my little sanctuary safe, and then build from there. Because I was so overwhelmed by I had taken on so much, you know, the Harami, the gorilla that got shot in the zoo in the state of Illinois zoo, the child fallen into the enclosure, and the who pays the price the animal pays the price and it's the week pay the price? As you said, the daughters the children that so yeah, I'm trying to now I'm being a little bit more internal and focusing on what what I can actually do today and the next part and then just just sharing my stories and hoping that I can inspire people to do better and, and to reach out and, and people would say to me enjoy during the during COVID Oh, well, we have to help the humans first. Like how many humans you'd like every an animal that we've got as attached to a human and that human has got children and a wife but in a family and grandparents and grandparents that they're looking after. So that we used to really piss me off actually, I feel like it's these helping animals is helping people because because it's the tourism industry, and they were they were all affected? I don't know. Yeah, absolutely. All right. But the other thing about what's the name of the girl that you just bought? What was her name? matter why. And so the other elephant is what Santa was. Yeah. And why was it important to get another animal another elephant? Wow, this unit? Well, the males are solitary usually. Or they stay in small groups called bachelor groups, but the females are their herd animals are herd animals and was Santa was pining away after sin. And they were so like with Santa was constantly with her trunk in centons mouth, which is how they show affection. She's a very needy elephant. And it was at the point where and she they love female energy when I get there like the owners like Vicki it's so different how they are with you than they are with us with the men and the hoots. And like they run to me. And it's just it's mind blowing. The first time was kind of charged me I was like closing my eyes going, Oh, Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ. He just stopped and she puts her head on my head and they feel the female energy. I know it and I was like, she needs a friend. She was so lonely. And I would like I'd be doing live feeds and then I'd stop and then I'd walk in the next thing she'd be like, right behind me and I'm like, she's lonely. She doesn't want to be left by herself. And then we got was such a bit. Oh, yeah, she's like to walk in her trunk out of the way if she was trying to get food and I'm like, Oh my god. So it takes time and now they're like, they love each other. They love each other no matter why is much bigger than Asana as well so she's but that I see it now with Nana's there with her chunk inside of Moto eyes mouth all the time. And as she really loves her and it's you see the difference in their demeanor like animals are like people right? We get lonely. You don't want to be by yourself and wonder how much food or booze we were social creatures. And yeah, I think the other the other lesson hopefully we've all had in the last couple of years is what it feels like to be locked up. Right? Because I'm glad you said that because I had that written down. This is what we were saying in Dolphin project. Now we've all had a taste of captivity, like you know, I always think I used to go see the dolphins in Japan in the whale museum that go visit them. It was checking on them. There was a famous There is a famous white dolphin there called Angel and I would go and document there and I used to think I would leave months on end and then I come back maybe with the mini coke monitors. I used to bring children from here to Japan with me and train them. And they had the biggest impact of all actually kids. That's when our views went up and people really started paying attention to the kids but I think wow, this dolphin hasn't moved from this spot. This you know, 15 foot tank or whatever moved not more than 15 meters. And I've been to Ireland pinned together, or wherever. depressing when you think about it that they do the same thing day in and day out. There's no variety. There's so there's no, no matter how much nurturing or what's the enrichments you can put into their enclosures. It's not even it doesn't even come close to what their life would be like in the wild. Would you recommend people take children to see things like that? Because it's pretty, pretty horrific, right? had kids that came up their own like I didn't, I had been I had been like lecturing, lecturing, like going to talk a lot of different schools. And this one school, they really kind of took to it. And the kids watched the movie, the kids wanted to come. Yeah. So the kids came, and they were unbelievable. Actually more resilient than people give them credit for. Absolutely. And why should the truth? Like what I think kids should see how their animals get on their place. Yeah, we should know that. I think that, uh, yeah, I know what you're saying. And like, for me, my parents, because I brought my children, they were like, Oh, if it was really bloody, I wouldn't let them come and watch if I was documenting. Yeah, it can be quite, but they they've got it covered with tarps. So you almost have to know where to look and film with the kid message. Jesus, they, they really, they made such a big impact when we were there. They're the ones that are going to make it and this is what it's, like usually see are so amazing. They would never bring our kids to an aquarium. Never. They would just wouldn't not, that's not our ethos. And it's funny, my son just went to boarding school in Ireland The year before last. And his school trip was to the zoo last week. And I was like, wow, I was like, that is really interesting. I said, I want to contact your school just to let them know what I do. And if they would be interested in becoming to talk to them, like in a million years UWA would not be supporting captive facilities, you know, alright, so I know you've got to get on and get some work done. But um, give us some final messages to the world. I think go easy on ourselves first, I think and don't and you know, don't feel judged by anything I said today like if you can even just think about it the next time you go to a shopping mall and there's an aquarium and your kid wants to go just think about it. Just think about the animals where they came from what what's their life like their do they even have sunlight most of these aquariums in the shopping centers don't this new the same thing? Like is it really like Why Why? Why do you need to go like there's no education. There's far much more education and documentaries in that I think. And if you can help if you've got money, if you can reach out and help these sanctuaries that are struggling right now. Please do please, please do I know as you said, Africa's really struggling and caught in Thailand, there's so many different foundations you can reach out to Save the Elephants is one of the big ones that lack runs. And you know, we're okay for the moment. But yeah, if anyone's interested they can just reach out to me and I can point you in the right direction. And I'm also happy to talk to anyone about alternatives like ethical tourism in general. And there's so many there's so many people out there doing incredible things that you're going to have so much more fun and learn so much more with going to visit these like Phuket elephant sanctuary. We've got the turtle project in my cow like There's people doing really cool stuff. I don't think oceans for all you know, they've got a shark shark breeding program. You can go you can go and Ross Yeah, they're doing incredible work. And with one Phuket, that's one of the things that we want to start to do is bring together that sort of knowledge information was right, so that people know because, you know, there's there's ethical elephant parks in Phuket. I know from through you that they're not so I get that this is the thing there's a lot of smokescreen and mirrors you have to do research in the czar is I'm like, I don't want to see what I don't I don't even agree with the sanctuary. I'm just doing the I want to give these girls the best way that they can while I'm around to see it through. But they don't belong in there. They don't belong in they don't belong dealing with humans every day, thinking bananas like, yeah, it's wrong. It's wrong. It's wrong. They should be in the herd in the forest with their families. And unfortunately, humans are in the way of that, right? That's yeah. And I battle with this a lot. Like am I selfish working with them? I know, this is I know, in my heart, I just have to be there with the right intentions that I make sure that they are given the best that is possible, given the circumstances and don't aim for perfection because you're not going to find it is probably another piece of advice, right? Being on an animal is a sign that it's not an ethical. So writing or bathing with them. That's a sign right? That it's not the bathing guys the bathing is really on it's really on hygienic, and it's they don't like it. Like as I said, our Wasana now that I see now that now that we've just let her do what she wants, she doesn't want to get in the river. Right? You want people touching her she'll move away strangers come on, you know, she's gonna like leave her alone. And this is the thing I just want. Now it's just about their welfare for me. I don't care. I don't care and I'm like, but I know we have to keep there has to be a tourist attraction because we have to make money to keep them alive. But yeah, it's really it's the more I'm with the animals. The more I see the less interaction I even want to have with them. You know, I'm like, leave them alone. Like we don't need to keep interfering with everything. Yeah, it's time for us all to think deeper. Right? And you better do better. Yeah, gotta read more research more. You know, the idea that we don't know is, you know, that times coming to an end, I think ignorance is certainly not bliss. But I do think ignorance. You know, there's, you know, that's why I do a lot of what I do with knowledge sharing, right? I mean, I do feel like the Western world has got it like when I see the Chinese tourist stuff coming here, I kind of get it cuz I don't think they have as much. Like there's not as much exposure of these cruelties. I really believe that because because of the way the government is, and their access to information is much less than what we would have. So I'd like I do have a lot of patience. I'm trying to understand the cultures where people are coming from here too. And I think that's such an important how countries development matters, right. So you know, Singapore, it's been around for 5050 something years, and it's really, really come a long way from a development perspective, but from a societal perspective, too, in all ways, like I was living there from 2003 to 2017, I saw such a massive, massive change in the society, which meant people started to care about animals, they started to care about, you know, nature life, whereas a lot of other countries that haven't had that time yet, you know, to get that, that level, and we need to do whatever we can as gently as we can to get in the way in history. And you know, that's really saying like traditions get in the way, because it's such an like, people don't understand that in China and Hong Kong, how important tradition is and it goes back millennia, you know, that the shark fin soup, like it takes things take time and the West need to shut up a little bit and give give them the time and space to grow. You know, actually, because the damage that was done actually wasn't by them. Before? Yeah, if people tell me boycott Japan, and did it even now, the Irish, the Irish have canceled the Russian ballet coming to Ireland like, What good does that do? Like who is that helping? You're punishing these ballerinas for something that they've never even done. And it's the same thing with the with the Japanese with the whaling and with people just wipe it with a big brush. And they're haters and I'm like, stop hating and try to be try to read between the bloody lines and see that there's a lot of gray area and no one's going to learn with a gun to their head. You've got to give people the space to educate themselves. And the change from within, for me is always Absolutely. Whether it's, you know, fighting for democracy or whatever. It's the change comes from within a country. And it always does. It never comes with boots on the ground from outside. I always said that he always used to say Japan, we're not going to change this. The Japanese have to do this. They've got to do this. It's not going to come from us because they actually they resented us being there. So yeah, no, I'm growing up. You know, I feel they feel like I'm learning a lot about you. I've learned a lot about humans through this animal work and how actually, we need some help to go. Yeah. There's a lot of anger out there so much anger in the world. Yeah. And online. As you said, you get it. You get all the anger. Yeah. All right. Well, I will let you go. But thank you so much. I really appreciate you spending time was informational. Informational, informative. I hope it was informative. Yeah, but had perimenopausal brain I say weird words. Now I'm writing the Vicki dictionary as we speak. I should do the same. But no, it's awesome. It's really powerful. A new, you influenced me a lot with what you share. So nice to hear. Thank you for sharing that with me. It's true, you really do. And, you know, I'll do anything to support you. And the way you know, this means so much. And I'll be able to share this out. And yeah, it's yeah, we just got to do better. And we can do better than yesterday, right? You know, one of the things that I've been sort of just saying, you know, we've got to, we've got to retain our belief in the power of the human spirit. Because if we allow the bad actors in the world to take that away, we're lost. So we've got a, you know, cynicism is consuming people. And they're, you know, they're just lost, people just lost hope. And it's like, we've got to keep the hope alive. And because we're so divided, we are so divided from vaccines to politics, religion is horrible. It's horrible. And it's the time in the world where we've got to get united because we've got some huge problems to address on the global stage and we can't be at war with joy you do. You're doing so much good work. Like I see grinding. I don't think all of you realize how hard you grind. Babe, you're you're like you're walking your talk. And I I really respect that. Sometimes, sometimes I want to give up trust me. Oh, yeah, me too. I could be having a party, but every now and again, the boys will say something to me. And it's about the future. And I'm like, boys, I'll never stop fighting for your future. And I'll never stop. I have to keep my word to them. You know, and that's what I'm doing it for, for them and for all the children right? Me too. So that I'm like, I need to carry this. I've said I gotta pass this torch to you. Unfortunately, you guys have been You're going to be left with a mess. Yeah, every now and again, my boys got Oh, go mom we know, right? And I'm like, I'm like, I know. I don't put too much pressure on them or give them too much grief. But every now and again, there'll be like, oh, yeah, no, ma'am. I know. I'm just there. See, I've got to have a plan I've got I've got to get a bottle of drinking a plastic bottle. I might count guys. This is just No, we just don't do plastic. We say no. And then they're like, but they get it. They get it like you I think the youth have got they've got their I just heard a podcast with Michelle Obama, actually. And she was like, it's one of the biggest things she said is we have take the old men and the old woman's got to get out of the way and let the come in. Because they I think they are I really believe in this generation coming up. Yeah. Although I do think it is time for the for the matriarchs to rise as well. Oh, hell yeah. Hell yeah. For Michelle Obama's in the world. She's one of those right? I think I think women need to rise, we need 50% presentation, just just not from our fighting for an equality perspective. But we could never make all the decisions we need to make unless we've got all the voices at the table, obviously, diversity as well, if we, if we can't comprehend the different points of view, we can't solve the problem. Because you know, all white men have one perspective, but they don't have all the other perspectives. And that's why, you know, there's so many, this is such an opportunity for a massive, positive, positive change around the world. And that's the energy that I sit in. And I Yeah, and I think our boys are making way for for women in the world to you know, I feel yet there is change coming. I have hope in the future. I don't think it's all bleak. And everyone's like, This is it. I think that we can have a good future. I absolutely have to believe that. Oh, we never lose. Always. What do we do? They just die. Alright, let's Let's promise to bring each other when we're having our days where we Yeah, losing hope, because we need to support each other and keep the hype alive. Everything you do, and for women speaking up for women, too. It's it's awesome. I know. There's lots to talk about. Alright. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. And thanks, everyone, for listening. You can follow me and get any request any questions you want. I'll put all your contact details in the show notes as well. All right, thanks. Bye. Thanks. really have a great day. Bye, bye. Thank you, Vicki Kelly, for that awesome conversation. I I take so much inspiration from her. And I've really learned a lot as well. There's so many things I wasn't really thinking about. And that's why you can be really broaden your knowledge or you can be really focused in your knowledge. And I think both are incredibly valuable and Vicki's knowledge around animal welfare is some something that I really value. And I hope you valued it too. You know, we need to be better in every way as human beings so that we can take care of the planet, which is sustaining us. And Vicki is one of those people that I think is worth listening to. So I hope you enjoyed today and just really grateful to Vicki for taking the time to do it with me. And also a big shout out to Gary Krause at legend music studio Paquette who's done my music for my podcasts. And he's awesome. And I just want to say thanks. So there you go. Another podcast, very grateful for the opportunity to have these conversations, tune in, subscribe, rate it leave a review, whatever you feel like doing tech, but probably the best thing you can do is that share it with people that you think will value the information because that's what this is all about right helping and supporting each other it's hard to be an activist in any way in the world. So if you can support the activists in your community who are doing work that you believe in you will help them be more successful but more than that, you'll keep them hopeful and you'll keep them committed because it's very difficult work to do. It's very relentless and I think we can all agree that people who are trying to do good for the world are was supporting Alright, I will see you soon. Cheers. Common let's talk about that stuff to say all of the stuff that's common