Uncommon Courage

Self-worth – what is it, how do we lose it and how can we get it back (part 1)

February 27, 2022 Andrea T Edwards, Cathy Johnson Episode 47
Uncommon Courage
Self-worth – what is it, how do we lose it and how can we get it back (part 1)
Show Notes Transcript

Self-worth is something so many struggle with. It’s a deep and fundamental belief that you have value in the world, and yet, so many lose it and never get it back. When you lack self-worth, you struggle through life not believing you have anything of value to offer the world. 

So what is self-worth, how does it differ from other self-ideas like self-esteem or self-belief, and what are the moments that take it away? It’s a big topic, and that’s why the amazing Cathy Johnson and I decided we wanted to dig into it more and share our findings in real-time. 

We did a small survey, attempting to understand why people lose their self-worth, when it happens, and finished this podcast offering ideas on how to get it back. 

This is just a beginning and we are looking forward to welcoming many guests onto the podcast to dig deeper into why people lose it and how we can all get it back. If we have belief in our own self-worth, we are more powerful role-models in the world, and right now, we definitely need more role-models. 

Have a listen, let us know if you would like to join a future podcast, and please, feedback any ideas you’d like us to explore in more depth. 

Note: this is not for people suffering deep trauma or serious abuse. We are not claiming to be professionals that can help with this and are clear in the podcast that this is not our intention. We believe that if “the rest of us” can heal, we make space for more compassion for those really suffering in our society. If we can heal, we create the space for wider community healing – something the world desperately needs. 

 To get in touch with Cathy Johnson

On LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/coachcathyjohnson/ 

Her Website https://cathy-johnson.com/ 

To get in touch with me, Andrea Edwards

Websites https://andreatedwards.com/ and https://uncommon-courage.com/ 

My book Uncommon Courage, An Invitation mybook.to/UncommonCourage

And the workbook mybook.to/UncommonCourageAction

And my Facebook Group Uncommon Courage https://www.facebook.com/groups/442905877003333 

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Unknown:

Hello, my lovelies. It's Andrea Edwards and welcome to uncommon courage. Today we're launching a series of podcasts, we hope, where we're going to be talking about self worth. And the person that I wanted to do that with is my great friend Kathy Johnson. Welcome, Kathy. Thank you, Andrea. And I'm thrilled to be here. It's a topic I know you're you have an interest in, I have a big interest in as well, because of the work I do working with people as a coach, and as a people developer in organization. So yeah, it's it's a, it's a biggie, and I'm glad to be here. I think we both natural observers of people in human behavior. And we both sort of take that off into our professional fields, but probably in different ways to most people. And, you know, when I was looking through the research, and the researchers who've been looking into self worth, it's, it sounds like it's one of those topics that's not as well understood as it should be, and is not deeply researched as it should be. So to me, there's a lot of insight just in that. Yeah, yeah. So for me, you know, lack of self worth is obviously something I've struggled with in various stages in my life for different reasons. And, but it's something I've observed around me a lot, and the behaviors off the back of it, which is what interests me, right. And I think a lot of people would presume that self worth is someone who, you know, who doesn't believe in themselves, and they're not confident, they're sort of, you know, their shoulders are forward, their heads are down. But actually, to me, it's, it's the office bully, whoever and thinks is the most confident person in the room can also be lacking self worth. So to me, it's a really wide spectrum of how it comes out as a behavior. Because, you know, we can both see behind the scenes of the people who are trying to cover it up, right? Yeah, yeah. I'm with you. In my experience, it shows up in different ways of being in the world. And one is definitely the big bully in the office, someone who is maybe acting to cover up a lack of self worth. And it shows up, I don't know, just from coaching. So many people, I just see so many, so many variations of how it manifests in the world. And yeah, I know, I know, you are a great observer of people, but I'm also I'm, I'm looking at everyone to understand them to see who they really are inside. And what's what's covered. Now. That person, so yeah, it's a big, it's a big topic. Yeah, it's massive. And I feel like we're just at the beginning of this journey, and it's gonna be awesome and exploring it right. And so the original idea was, we're gonna sit down and do a book together, but actually, everyone's going to be witnessing us having a conversation as we learn. Yeah, and I don't think a lot of people do that, because they're scared to look stupid. And I don't care. If I look stupid, it doesn't bother me. As long as I'm learning, and in our course, correct me if I'm cool. Yeah. All right. So self worth, that one of the first things that really struck me is people think it's different things, which I thought was interesting. But basically, when you have good self worth, that means that you believe you're fundamentally worthy as a person, but people think it's also self esteem. And this is lady who wrote this blog or website on this website called lone wolf. And basically what she's saying, if you don't have self worth, you feel insecure, unstable, and have a constant sense of underlying anxiety that taints everything like poison. And then I thought this was a really great description, because I like the visual, lacking self worth is like being a tree without roots. And then she went on to say, self worth is foundation is the trunk and the roots. And self esteem is like the branches were How would you describe self worth? I love that metaphor of the roots in the tree itself, being the fundamental, self worth. Part of the way I think about it is that everyone, everyone has fundamental self worth as a human being. They're here on the planet, just like everybody else. We're all the same, actually. Everyone has self worth. And we start out that way. I think everyone is born with a sense of that, until some things start to happen, and start to shift that but fundamentally, I really love it. The roots of the tree are what not only provided nutrients and everything else, but it anchors it in for human beings being anchored by no matter what happens outside of us. There's a fundamental sense of self worth inside of us. It means that we have we have a sense about ourselves, that means people can't be knocking us over. And I think most people have are born with some roots. Sometimes they get stunted things happened so we get off track, but it doesn't mean we can't get back on. One of the things that I was reading in positive psychology, top five, these are the things that people use to measure their self worth. And when you hear them, you'll be like, these things are not important, right? Appearance, what you look like what size you are, what size your clothes are, the attention you receive, for the way you look, your net worth, how much you learn what you learn assets, who you know, your social circle. So, you know, if the people that you know, where the who's around you, what you do your career. And I remember early on being impacted by that for a little bit, too, I sort of forced myself to get over it, because it's not important, but it's also the hierarchy of work. So a doctor is more important than a janitor, you know, that sort of mindset, what you achieve, you know, we determine our self worth based on what we're able to achieve. And basically, none of these are relevant when it comes to self worth, right? Yeah, absolutely nothing. They're not important. No, they're not. The other thing that I was noticing it was coming to me because I was just making my own list, which is basically just what you read about, what is it self worth? What is it about if we don't have self worth, when is it related to and I have physical, also intellectual. But the thing that was coming to me as you were reading is that all of those things are things that we hear from outside of us that tell us, this is good, and you're not, this is what's good. You're not. That's it, that was the message that kept coming through building your self worth is an inside job. Yeah. And to many of us measure our self worth, from external influence, which, which I thought was interesting. So another lady, Stephanie Jade one, she's basically on a mission to correct misunderstandings and misperceptions around what self worth is Amin, so her list of what should not determine your self worth your to do list, who cares? Your job, again, your social media following because your age, You're not too young, you're not too old. Other people, it's not an external thing, you know, how far you can run. So the athletic sort of achievements, your grades, we're all different. We all learn differently, we're in a system that measures everybody in this in a singular way. When we're not the number of friends you have the quality of friends, you have your relationship status, whether you're by yourself with somebody happily married, or married to anassa, lack of money, your likes, when you have good taste or not, if your friends think you're sophisticated, anything or anyone but yourself. And this is where she says here, we get to the heart of the matter, you are the only one who determines your self worth. And I thought, believing in ourselves that we are worthy, that we have a right to exist in the world, you know that we are important. We are loved, and lovable. You know, that thing that gets read, you are the one only one who determines your self worth, and I'm totally with that I agree. What I was thinking about is that when we are born, we're born basically helpless into a family. And every human being is looking outside of themselves as a kid to try to figure out how can I survive and what's going to happen and where, where's my food and, and so we're programmed in a way as children who listen and to learn from outside, and to glean information about ourselves from outside. And so we start that taking it in early on. And it's just that at some point, we need to make a shift from this basing our self worth on what we're hearing to what we think yeah, and, and, and not everyone makes us shift. So the two reasons I've found where people develop a lack of self worth. The first is childhood traumas and core wounds. And this goes really, really wide. You know, just from parents with immature emotions, you know, I've got two teenage boys, and my job now is to navigate them emotionally through these times so that they can become home men. And I'm thinking about stuff like that, right? But not all parents do. And different generations before certainly didn't. The childhood traumas come from survival. So a baby wants to survive. That is its first instinct. And that survival behavior continues. And if the parents don't help that child be safe, they will learn behaviors, to make sure that they're not getting the attention from the parents, that puts them in danger. So childhood traumas and core wounds, and, you know, obviously, sexual abuse is in the mix. No love from parents, the parents are addicts. I mean, there's so many different things, but all the way all the way through to emotional immaturity of parents, right? Yeah. And then the second one is protecting ourselves against what we fear. So rejection and abandonment from others, which obviously starts in childhood, you know, if you're not getting it, but also, if you meet someone who's got an incredible fear of death that's part of that I thought was really interesting. And as Marianne Williamson said, we feel our own power. And I actually think that's, that's a topic that we should probably just do, maybe another Yeah, one whole podcast on because it's such a big topic but the desire To constantly please and appease others is at the core of who we are as humans when we come into the world, and we'll do anything we can to achieve that. But yeah, so someone who's got a lack of self worth, they think they're bad, they think they're unlovable, and they think they're unworthy. I think there's a lot more people in the world who suffer from that, then we give credit for and the like, the limited research in that area, to me is a big sort of sign that we're not paying attention to the core issues at the center of our societies, that could really help us heal our societies. Yeah, that's, I know, that's why we both want to do this. Yeah. But it's actually bigger. If we can help deepen the understanding around self worth, and help people to move in a different direction, those who are lacking self worth, it can ease the strife and struggle that individuals are having and what they're expressing on the world. I was just going to say, I know we're going to talk about this little quick survey we did. But one of the things that came out of that is about how men, you might never think that some men have any kind of self worth lack. Because they're not allowed to express it. Very often. I feel like they can't even ask for help. Because they're a man. And it's not okay. So I think it I don't know, that's a big topic. I just want to say this, in my experience, and from my research, when we start to squash boys emotions, when they're little die. No, you don't do and haven't done what your boys and I really love that when we start doing that, we start to stump them, and they're not able to they're just learn to cram everything down, which means it's not like the emotions just evaporate, then they tend to come out in other ways, which are harmful to people around them. So it's the same kind of thing that happens with bullies. Yeah, no, exactly. But just before we go on, so can you give some examples from your life that you'd be happy to? Yeah, I came up with a few that I'm happy to share their many because I struggled with this for many years, as you know, and had to work to get beyond it ever was thinking of the first kind of incident that I can recall it happen. And one was was a little one in like, I think it was in kindergarten or first grade, maybe first grade class. And where I lived in Florida, the class had a bathroom was actually a little built in brick wall thing. Inside each classroom had a bathroom. I don't know why our least minded ours did. I went to the bathroom. And and you know, as you might do, you might sing in the bathroom, which I was doing. But what I didn't know is like the sound was really it was like I was singing in an auditorium. And it was really loud. And everyone in the class heard me singing for a while. And then I came out and they were all laughing, though. So I went from singing and thinking I was in this brick thing. And came out to big laughter, which was clearly about me, because they're all looking at me. And I didn't know what I had done and what was right. I had no idea that they had heard me singing, I had no idea what was happening. But I remember feeling like I was being pointed out and made fun of it was that was very first one. And second one is my mother used to always say about the three kids, my brother me. And my sister used to say that Dean, my brother is the to describe her kids to people, Dean is the intelligent one. Cathy has street smarts. She talked about my sister Jane too, which was even worse, I'm not even going to say it. But I felt like well, street smarts doesn't sound as smart as intelligent. And I felt hurt every time I heard it. I'm sure my sister felt worse. But it just made me feel like I wasn't smart enough. And just another thing that relates to this whole, this whole idea that we are trying to also fear we're coming from fear of rejection. And that sort of thing is how it shows up. There was a time in my life when, for years, I could not say that I didn't know something. I could not decide that I would just if someone said, oh, you know this, they would mention an actor or somebody in the planet. And I had no clue or book or something. Oh, yeah, I would just always say, oh, yeah, as if I had read it, or I'd even heard of them. Because I couldn't let it be known that I didn't know. It took me a long time to just really see that and get beyond it. And I want to just add one thing, you know, when you were talking about even test for kids, you know, when when you're growing up, you're going to school and have an exam and if you don't score well, then he tends to or other people are scoring better than you whatever it tends to make people feel like Oh, I'm not as good as them. I'm not as smart as them. But I remember so clearly I finally got this when I was in the fourth grade. We had some big test coming up about the addition tables and the subtraction and the multiplication. some tables and division tables and all of that. And we were supposed to memorize them. And I hate memorizing and I just felt like, I'm gonna fail this, and I'm just gonna be terrible. I did not fail it. I didn't ace it, but I didn't fail it. But I was thinking about that for a long time. Because if I had failed it, I would have made me Oh, my God, I don't know, I feel even worse about myself. And the truth is, I'm really great at math. At the time, I thought I was bad at math. And even on my si T's I made better at math and English, but it's a moment in time is what tests to, but those alone schools can have an impact on on people's self worth negative impact or positive one. No, just some. Oh, there's so many, right. But your primary school for me as well. Just cut the teachers just didn't like me. I'm just a small child trying to work out who I am. And you've got these adults who are just undermining you literally undermining you. And, you know, my family when a wealthy family, we weren't a prominent family. We weren't any of that sort of stuff, right? So did I just become an easy target? I don't, I don't know. But I'm really, really shook me around a lot. But I always say the one thing that I always had growing up was the deep love of my father. And I think that was the foundation that gave me confidence and self worth knowing, no matter what, I had the loved my dad growing up into an adult, and he remarried and has a whole new family and its relationships completely changed now. But that time for me, that foundation with him, I think was what set me up. So then I became a teenager, blond hair and a double D car, you can imagine lots of attention, all that stuff that I didn't I didn't want it. But then I just went and did things that girls didn't do then I became a bodybuilder. I raced bikes, I had the best size and the best carbs in my year by a longshot, you know, but I also I was doing things just to say to the guys just go away, I don't I'm not interested in you. And so for me that that age of transitioning into child into adult, young, yellow, I just went down a different path. But self worth is one of those things that's it constantly comes up, you know, and the classic example of how it comes up in society. So one of the one of the findings that we'll talk about is that the majority of people who responded were female, right. And I think one of the things that men may not be as aware of is how much exists within our society that really does damage women and girls self worth. So I did basic training in the army in Australia. And that's three months. When you enter, you're a piece of shit, you are the bottom of the bottom, nobody cares about you, there is no respect, you are nothing and that you are told you are nothing from the second you get on the bus and go go to the Kapooka room. Borger, right this place in Australia. Yeah. And, and you know it, and you have to learn how to exist within that and survive and potentially thrive but no one really thrives. Right? You just got to you just got to get out of there, right? Yeah, that's right. Three months is a long time. Yeah. There's a male platoon and a female platoon, brother and sister platoon. And you all start off in the same way they rip you down, tear you apart. And then the idea is they build you back up before they release you out into the wild. So the military, they did that to the guys, but they didn't do it to the girls, the building back up. And I found that really fascinating because I was I was 21 I graduated from uni I wasn't maybe even 22. So I wasn't, you know, fresh out of high school. But I watched a lot of those girls go out. And I know that their potential in life was clipped at that point in their life. And I think that happens a lot. I think it happens a lot. And trust me there were two male in the there's a leadership team. There's corporal, Sergeant, Lieutenant, right. There were two males within that structure. But the main boss was a female and the main day to day interactions, were we females. And yeah, there was one horrible she might she did everything she could to get me. And I was perfect. In everything that I did to make sure that she could never get me and never punish me. She was desperate to get me. And I'm like, you're not getting me. I can imagine. That was a really interesting experience, but also a really interesting insight and just watching the how devastating that is for a lifetime for a person. Because if you believe what people tell you the external influence again, right? Well, you know, I love that story. I mean, couldn't get you. But you know, just to add on to what you were saying. You know, it's interesting. Your father's love was something that helped ground you from a young age and, and as it happens, I have the same story. My father absolutely thought I was wonderful, smart, capable. Everything, everything wonderful. He absolutely loved me. And I was so clear about it because he he was very clear about all the time when my parents separated I'm divorced, and we grew apart. And we weren't the same as when I was little. But that helped me. I think there are other things that happened later that, you know, beat down on my sense of self and self worth. But I think the self worth was basically had some good roots already. So it's so it wasn't throwing over. It's just so self esteem came later. But But yeah, I think it's something that's, I notice. And I actually talk with men about it fathers about it whenever I can. The relationship between fathers and daughters is a very special one. And there's psychological research on that. But it's sometimes I'm working with a father who, you know, feels like a he shouldn't be too close to his daughters. And it's actually well, there's a limit to closest, but it actually his daughter's needed. Part of that is the whole sense of self worth. But it could come from others too. It could happen. Yeah, I think, you know, every time Steve sort of gets in a bit of a flap about the boys future, and, you know, one of them's not achieving what they should be at their age and education system, I'm like, the only thing that we have to do is love them. That's it, we're just gonna love, I got a guide, and we're gonna do all that other stuff. But if they know that they're loved, and they feel safe in the love, you know, and when we're looking at some of the stories that some of our friends shared, that didn't feel safe in their parents love, know, and you're constantly insecure about the people that should love you the most, then that's always gonna be something that you carry with you for the rest of your life. Exactly, exactly. Because that is, it's like our your home and your family unit should be the place where even if the whole world thinks you're crap, you know that you're loved for who you are just, and when that is not there, then people, it's when crazy stuff happens. Really? Yeah. So parents, love your kids, and feel safe in that. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's to me. That's the secret of parenting success. Alright, so a couple of caveats. We didn't do the caveat at the beginning that we know we didn't, let's do it now. All right. So Kathy, and I, both professionals in our field, those be said, We're observers of life, but we're not mental health professionals. We're not psychologists, psychiatrists, or any of that sort of stuff, we're not claiming to be if you are a person who's listening to this, and you have real challenges that you're trying to overcome, and that, you know, you need to go and speak to a professional, this isn't what we're trying to do here. And who we do want to speak to is the rest of us. You know, when I wrote my book, it was about the rest of us as well, because I think, like we were saying earlier, there's some deep societal challenges that we need to overcome, but we never look at. And to me, this is a big part of that conversation. So we're not trying to be experts, but both of us have a lot of insight of working with people, you know, I spend a lot of time with people trying to uncover what their focus is. So they can go out and be social leaders. And, Kathy, you know, what, talk about the sort of work that you do, what I what I do is, I'm a certified professional coach certified by the International Coach Federation. And I have been doing this work professionally for the past 14 years. And I really focus on helping people not solve problems in their lives, but actually develop as human beings. So I'm looking at how they're being in the world. So observing that and looking at what's, what's that about, helping them to look at it, and then helping them to make some changes in their life so that so that their life works better for them. And one of the big things that often comes up is this whole self worth, or misplaced, or missing, or lack of self worth, so, and more more of an outer focus. So I often work with people on issues like this, in the coaching work that I do for coaching, I was about 28 years in the corporate world. And my last corporate role I had, I was head of marketing of a NASDAQ listed company headquartered in Hong Kong. And even then, because I was a leader of people, I was also observing and, and looking at, you know, how people show up, what holds them back, that sort of thing. So and I like I know you, Andre, you have an interest in supporting people in their lives. It's why you wrote your book on common courage, which is really for anybody or anyone in the world, especially people who want to have less suffering in their lives and be bigger in their lives as putting up some new marketing material for me. There we go. Alright, so that's the first caveat, and we are happy to recommend you to professionals as well. I think we're both connected to some great people. Yeah. So the second thing is, we did a survey and we got 87 responses, which is which is a good chunk. I used to work for an IT research company IDC I appreciate the integrity of the data is really important. We're not claiming that we, we shared it with our communities on social media. So we couldn't guarantee that 50% of the respondents were male 50% were female, and the different demographic splits and all that sort of stuff. What we were trying to do is we were trying to understand with our community to see if they actually agreed with what we already thought we knew, right, based on our life, is just where people were with the self worth the topic, you know, just gauging interest in it. And that that was probably one of the things that really stood out to me how interested people were in hearing more about it. So it's not empirical. That's the word isn't. Yeah, that's yeah. Yeah, but actually, we talked about doing this series, and we wanted to just reach out and get a feel for just from our own social media group of what people's experience has been related to this topic. And it's just a sense of its we're not offering it as an empirical kind of findings. But interesting findings, definitely. But to the people that sort of gave us some feedback and different ways we could position the data, we do appreciate it. And we tried to do it as well as we could, as well as we knew how. But if we take it to the next step, which will be the asking about self worth, do you have it? Don't you have it as well as? Have you lost it and regained it? How did you regain it, that sort of stuff, then then we'll work with somebody who actually is a specialist in that field. So yeah, just we wanted to put that caveat out there. So let's, let's just go through the data. So far, the responses were more than 70% were women. And the rest were men. And to me, this actually aligns with what I have seen in the world, as far as women are more aware that they lacking self worth than men, but it doesn't mean more women lacking self worth. Do you agree with that? I agree with that, although there's a part of me that mean, I'm just putting it out. But it's not based on anything political, it's just this, one of the things I was making some notes about was that part of where we get the messages about our self worth, I mean, part of it is from parents and other family members, and that sort of thing, and society, and religion, and schools and all that. But it's also from the media. And in general, the whole world has been until, I mean, a very recent times in human history focused on the underlying message. And what's been taken for granted is that males are far more valuable and important than females. And so based on that, I mean, there's so many subtle messages that people get, and some not so subtle, just like you got in the army, that you're not as valuable, you're not as good. And you know, in some societies, you know, if you can only have one child is going to be a male, you're going to kill a female. So, you know, it's like, it's clearly in the world and in society, males are better, or more valuable. So if you were a female, you're likely to have gotten messages from home and wherever, just that very thing, it just, you know, as I'm saying, this, I'm reminded of when I was, as you know, I was married to a man early on, and, and one of the things that I was terrible, because my father who loved me said this, but also my mother and other people, that I need to never make more money than my husband. And I was making more money than he was. He was fine about it, but they weren't. Anyway. Yeah, it's, and someone recently was telling me that, you know, she just broke up with her husband not long ago. And part of it was that, at some point, he wanted her he said, You know, it's time for you to back off the gas pedal now in your career, and, you know, I'm gonna do my thing. And she's like, I'm not backing off. I have my career and I'm when I love what I'm doing and all of that. Anyway, it didn't work out. And she was talking to her father also was very supportive of her. But when she was talking to her father saying, you know, he's saying I need to back off the gas pedal. And her father said, Well, I think you you need to, to just like lots of messages. Absolutely. You're not You're not anyway, so but I'm with you. That does not mean empirically. Women have less self self worth, but yeah, no, but it's a really good point. So I grew up in opposite parenting environment. My dad was an artist. So he was always at home mum was always someone that was out of work. So financially mum always more. So obviously we Steven I, whoever doesn't matter, we don't care. So I don't know why but you know this, you know, even that The situation I was describing, they couldn't crush me. Yeah. And the more they tried, the harder I work to, to make sure that they couldn't crush me. And that strength came from somewhere. And I don't know where but the stubbornness within, right? But um, you're absolutely right. So as a young teenager, again, we had this magazine in Australia called dolly magazine, and my sister was the only one who weren't any money. So she used to buy it, and bring it home, when we poring over this magazine, every week, or every month, or whenever it came out, wanting the clothes, wanting it wanting at all, and we couldn't afford any of it. And I just remember one day, going, every time I look at this, I feel bad about myself. And I just stopped, I stopped reading it. Now I look at what's going on with Teen Vogue in America, which is really quite intellectual. And it's educating the girls. And it's talking about the big issues. And I'm like, that's where those sort of publications should be going. Right. But yeah, there is. You're absolutely right there is there's things that are going on in our world that we can't even see it in 50 years time, we'll look back and we'll go How the hell do we let that happen? Right? Yeah, I'm always looking at that, like people, we look back 50 years now and go, Wow, that's the American house housewife in the 50s. Like how, after World War Two, shoved back in the home, you know, and that's when they didn't want to go, but but they did. And they pretended to be happy. Yeah. And that's when the mass consumerism started. And that's when, you know, all the problems that we're facing today began back at that point when they wanted to shove women in the home, but then they gave them tools to play with washing machines and microwaves and you know, all that sort of stuff. And yeah, very damaging. So the second part was, which region of the world did people respond from? I thought we covered all regions of the world, but still about 7% said other. The only two areas of the world that weren't represented, were Central America and Eastern Europe, Eastern Europe, I think would be just interesting in its own right. So all of my friends who grew up in the communist times in, in Europe, I don't even think they'd be able to talk about this. They wouldn't understand it from the conversations. It's not. It's not it's not a thought that they entertain, you know, and obviously, they're, they're probably all now sort of in their 50s 60s. Yeah, but you know, that male female inequality, but you know, every single person I've met, and I'm friends with from who grew up in that era, they don't understand a lot of the stuff that especially women in the Western countries talk about the complaints, the lack of equality, because it's just the way that they were raised, because they were raised where things are more equal, and they have self worth a sense of self worth. Well, I don't know about the sense of self worth, but equality, you know, male or female. Yeah, it's a female was more successful than the mountain meta. So yeah, yeah. Obviously, not all people that were raising that time. But the people that I've met, and obviously they've gone on and traveled around the world, and they've got big roles in the world now. But yeah, which region of the world were you raised in? So these were, but they could have you been living here or wherever now, but in Eastern Europe and Central America? Is that right? Though? Eastern Europe and Central America? Yeah, we didn't get much from Yeah, yeah. But there's no one in my office must be a few but, but pretty representative, which I thought was good. Yeah. All right. So then question number four. This is one of those ones that we could go a long way, which person community or organization had the biggest impact on you in regards to reducing your self worth or belief in yourself? Check all that apply? Mother comes up top. Father's not too far behind. And obviously, a lot of people take both mother and father, the next word, school friends, a teacher, and then spouse. So they're the top five. But in the comments was step parents, which of course, we didn't put them children and then in the neighborhood, but suppose we kind of bunching everybody up a school friends, but it's quite a few people wrote, I did it to myself, which, which I found really, really interesting, because I think as an adult, we can definitely do it to ourselves. But as a child, I can't imagine how we can do it to ourselves. Yeah, hiring managers, you know, if you're over 16 school groups where I didn't feel accepted, just the community around me. And you know, we didn't write media or social media, but obviously, that probably should have been on the list exposure to a narcissist what else jumped out there for you abuse by one was a PE teacher, football people, you know, football teams. I mean, it's it's, so that's, you know, some social groups, colleagues, ex colleagues, envious siblings, so I mean, it's pretty wide, but the obvious the two, or maybe even the three, it starts at home, because then siblings is in the mix as well. Grandparents, grandparents were quite low. Other relatives were higher than grandparents. So which I thought because most people today have their grandparents around where I grew up with one grandmother rested had died before I was even born. and teacher and school friends, and then spouse. So, family, yeah, education institutions were the were the ones that came up, but they're doing it to themselves. So then we had two major groupings of ages, their largest group was that people's self worth started to diminish between the ages of 10 and 14, that was the biggest growth, the next biggest was nine and below nine and below, that's where mine would be if I if I ran. And so that those two bet, let's say, up to the age of 14, that's the biggest grouping of everyone. And 15 to 19 was very small 20 to 29, just a little bit bigger than that. The next biggest arena, where people's sense of self worth diminished was between 30 and 39 years of age, and then 40 to 49, which coincides with a time when we're already into work, and all likelihood and having some inputs from likely work. Or also family is still giving us inputs, or whatever the biggest age groups was 10 to 14, and then below, when then there's a gap and coming back in 3930 to 3940 49. When you get up to 70 to 79. You either got or you don't I think it's it's either with you or not. But that was very low. So the 30 to 49. I found that really interesting. Yeah. Because I think it's the point where when you have expectations of yourself, it's the point in your life where you might say, I haven't achieved anything. I haven't achieved my dream. So I haven't I haven't married well, I don't have children, I don't have the career or one, I don't have this, I don't have that. And by that it's that age group where that really sort of starts kicking in the 30 to 39 being stronger there. It's like your 20s are sort of fun when you get off the ground and you fly 30 to 39 If you don't make it there, you know, in most people's mindset, yeah, no, it's a feeling of failure, but the below 14, how much higher that was, yeah, and all the other groups, we got a lot of work to do to make sure helping our kids grow into healthy adults. Because if we get that wrong, you know, it's a hard slog, I agree, you know, that the 30 to 3940 49, let's just say 30 to 49, what you're just saying is, you know, you're, you're either you're getting to the place where you might be looking at where you are in your life now in terms of your career, or your marriage, or your family, your own family you've created or whatever. And deciding, oh, Am I successful, am I it's my family that I do marry well, and that sort of thing. In the thing that I find very often is people tend to whose careers and work very often based on what someone else is telling them. Like, you know, they've got an opening over here, or you know, what you should be, you should be going into this or whatever. It could be people who have more influence on us, like parents, or a great friend who has now told us, you know, you know what you should do, and we, especially if we don't have big roots in the ground, we might be inclined to do that. I work with a lot of people who are in a career that they freaking hate, they really don't like, or they're in a marriage that some people really hate it. But very often it's just in it. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. But the only thing that they're the only conversations they're having with their spouse are what I would call admin conversations about, okay, are you taking the kids tomorrow? Or am I, that's or, you know, who's cooking dinner or whatever, it's, it's just admin stuff. And then people get to this age where they're thinking, you know, what have I done with my life? And am I happy, and my life isn't as good as somebody else's, but their life is designed for them by other people's expectations, right? So it's that external influence again, right now, always remember this amazing moment I had, I was in one of my business trips in India, obviously, before the pandemic, there was this software engineers, brilliant guy. And I do this one minute meditation. I think you've done my one minute meditation at some point. And he came out of the meditation, and he started writing poetry. And he had tears streaming down his face. And when he shared, he basically put that skill in the recesses of his mind, because he knew that now was the time to start developing the education and the skills to move into a career that was seen as right by his family and his community in both of us living in Asia for a really long time. You know, we see that pressure. Yeah, I've talked to so many people, they're so unhappy in their marriage, in their work in whatever, but they will always Say to me, I cannot show my parents, I cannot show my family, I cannot embarrass my family and my community. It's a very powerful force. And as an outsider, you can't understand it. But the more time you spend in Asia and you see it, you know, that meeting the expectations, I was just recharter has just written a new book on breaking the glass ceiling. And it talks a lot about the challenges that Indian women face in overcoming career obstacles. And, you know, it's, it's universal, but it's also very local, a lot of the challenges that people face. I heard Dr. Rao speak this week, he said, people who are unhappy, you have a rigid idea of how the universe should be. And it's not playing ball. And he was talking about how we all live in this endless quest to have control on life. But it's just an illusion, and none of us can have it. And you know, he's all messages, let's just all aim to be the best we can and sort of break free of these shackles, you know, because we're not, he used the word radiantly alive. And I thought that was really powerful and really beautiful. But most people would struggle to be radiant Lee alive because they're too focused on appealing to some external idea of what they should be. And it's Todd, and that line, you just said that he was saying about, we want to control the universe, and the universe is not playing ball. Yeah. But it is. It's so true. And then when you're talking about being, he said, radiantly alive, is that right? Yeah. Clients, very often, I always ask, what are you doing to take care of you? Or what do you do to that makes you really joyful, or alive? Or you're having fun? And very often people will say, I don't know what you mean, like that. It's like, I don't even like speaking another language. Because very often, we're focused out there. We don't start from in here. And that that's part of this whole problem of self worth. We're focused on how can I look good, or be good and live up to other people's expectations? And then I'll be fine, then I'll be worthy, as opposed to just read totally, totally refocusing, so that it's from inside, not outside, always. So we both want to say thank you to everybody who shared a story where we basically said, Would you be willing to share a story of someone who had an impact on you, badly impacting your ability to develop self worth? And some of these stories brought tears to my eyes. Some people have been through terrible situations. And it starts so young, you know, sexual abuse, not once, twice, three times. And it's always close to home, you know, parents, just really criticizing their children. Like, what you were saying as well, you know, or even worse, like overhearing that there's one story, standing behind a door at night listening to my stepfather tell my grandparents what a thoroughly horrible person I was, and they didn't disagree. I think I was 10 You know, my mother was envious of the relationship I had with my dad was always pointing out my faults to him. As I got older, she would ask me questions that she should have asked her friends false rumors being judged, humiliation comes through a lot of one was about a young woman who had a traumatic event, but this trauma was actually in a boat that capsized and she was, you know, feeling wanted some reassurance and some love and care and a hug. And she was instead was humiliated also, you know, young girls being called ugly or fat it's uh, you know, that's that works really, I started to say well harshly on girls because one of the messages that we get from the world from society and the media is girls need to look pretty or you're not okay at in you're not desirable, etc. Yeah, having husbands or parents who are narcissistic, or someone who was married to work for 20 years before they realized and then you'd think it's your fault. Are they wrong with you if that's are the problem to, constantly criticized and belittled by my mother told she was ashamed of me, I never thought loved by her. Made sure I brought up my kids differently. There's one story you know, somebody might think well, that's not a big story, but to me, it is a really big story of PE teacher physical education. Made a girl even though it was a female girl school, attend gym class was in her underwear because she'd got to bring her full sports gear. She was 10 Yeah, and there were some male teachers in that. She wrote I realized that shame brought on by the decisions of usually a higher authority has a direct correlation in planting the seeds of low self worth. I dreaded this teacher even though I love sport and excelled in it as A child, you think about something like that, that could have been a future Olympic champion in that moment could have destroyed it. Exactly. Someone was talking about small town opinions and labels. Yeah, I grew up in a small town. And that was always and so, yeah, but you know, terrible. I felt shame and couldn't break the loop of achieving significant jobs and money without feeling like a fraud, a pretender or an imposter. I was too ashamed to ask for help. It just wasn't manly. I have achieved lots. I mean, I look back, I feel a sense of pride, but also, still to this day can't take satisfaction from my achievement, which I think is really sad, don't you? Right? Absolutely do. And where does that come from Kathy? That never feeling like you've done it never feeling like you could be proud of it. Where does that come from? I just want to say I find from working with so many people, everyone's world is different. But you know, I'll give you an example. There's a guy here in Singapore, who I have worked with. And he told me about a time when he was just came home from school. And he had his first test results, his first test, and he was running around the house and, you know, waving his tests and, and he was all excited and happy and and skipping around the house. And his father said, come over here, boy, what are you happy about? And he said, I made a 93 on my test. And you know what I'm going to say he's had the father said, What are you happy about that were the other seven like that. So that boy who is in his late 40s Now remembers that moment to this day. And that was many, many years ago. And I think one of the things that made it so, so poignant to him and memorable is that he went from a really happy place feeling great about himself to all the way down, like he was walking away with his head down and feeling terrible about himself, like he had, you know, I thought I'd done something well, now, oh, clearly, I was not good enough. And to this day, it impacts his leadership, because nothing he does is good enough. So he has to overwork and other work, and his family doesn't even know who he is, and bah, bah. So it's, it's things happened, that make us feel like, we're not good enough, we're not worthy. And we need to do something we either need to achieve a lot. So that will be good, or we need to make everybody happy around us. And then we'll be lovable. We need to we need to bring home a lot of money, or we need to be in a in a job that is very respectable, and then we'll be okay. It just it's like never feeling like you're good enough. And that's the thing. You know, when you were talking earlier about parents, your big job is just to absolutely love your kids. Yeah, if people feel I can get it that I am lovable as I am, I don't need to do anything to be lovable. If every parent did that, that alone would change the world. But I also want to, you know what, I want to add something because I don't want us to go far down this road without this being sad. And that is this. There are people outside of us, who send us messages that we hear as, and very often it is you're not, you need to be like this, and then you'll be okay, or you're not good enough and all of that. But I want to just put it out there that it's not that our parents are always devious, and they're really trying to screw us up, for example, it's like, it's not always bad intentions, they very often want to help and they think they're helping, like if they're telling, here's another topic of that has to do a self worth and that's people hope who are LGBTQ. If you hear that, your parents say that that's not okay. And you need to people who are LGBTQ gay or trans or whatever, not okay, then they make the coming from a place they want your life to be happy, or they want you to be happy in this world. They don't see how you could be that everyone will hate you or something like that. It could be coming from a desire to help, but it actually diminishes who we are. I know my mother's saying that my brother was intelligent and I was at street smarts. I note that 400 That was not he wasn't trying to hurt me. And I think she probably thought street smarts was fine, but the way it didn't sound so fine to me, but the intentions are even a parent who is just had a really bad day and she comes home and you know, kids say my mommy and stop it. I need to talk like that. And it can impact a child in terms of now my mother doesn't like me or is mad at me and what did I do and all that. I'm just saying it doesn't always come from a place where it's intentional in bullies are the same way. You know, they're coming from really somebody did that to them. They didn't just start being a bully cuz I'm just going to decide to be a bully. None of this very often, not always is mostly as not coming from an intentionally intentional place to harm, but it can be very harmful. And the effects can last for years just like this guy. So with this guy, you know, this breaking the loop of feeling that that he needs to be have bigger and bigger jobs and then but I might good enough, I'm feeling like I'm an imposter and all but I can't ask for help because I'm a man. And then I look like it's just, it's, that's why I do what I do because it's there's so much suffering in the world. And it's suffering that we just push it aside, we go on and live life as if everything's fine. But it's not fun inside, we just don't talk about it. We don't talk about it to our spouses or to anybody else, we just suck it up and get it through another day. We're not breaking the chain of generational trauma, right? Yeah. So every generation that comes through that experiences that childhood trauma, if they don't go inside and really do their deep self analysis and see it and heal themselves, they don't intentionally, like I'm totally with you, I believe that there's a gift, if you choose to see it that way, even when it's a bad experience, right. So when when you hear some of the people in the world who've suffered the most horrible, horrible, you know, Nelson Mandela's the most famous, and he was able to come out and forgive. And we all admire him for his ability to do that. But we forget that we are also capable of being the same, but we hold on to our anger. And then we just perpetuate the same issues, and the next generation gets it the next generation. And so I suppose we need to break the chain, you know, and we can do it another one. I'll just say, I won't say her name, but I might see if she's willing to participate. She's written a name here, but I don't want to just in case and if she join and talk about it, but yeah, she experienced a long term gaslighting slash bullying by a female coworker pushed up the ranks. And she was not believed. And she's going through a legal case now, and I hope, and as somebody else very close to me, who went through this, by the end, you know, though, I've seen people physically transformed, they've aged, the hairs gotten gray. They've gotten wrinkles, you can see it happening behind all your eyes, right? So even if you don't believe the evidence, because a person who does this is usually so manipulative, they keep everything under, there's nothing in writing, they covered themselves, and now how to do it. And you can just say, the physical manifestation with someone they put on weight, they lose weight, they get gray, they get old, they get tired, they turn up the fashion changes, their hair gets crazy. I mean, I've seen it all start having physical problems. Yeah, yeah. ailments. And, and for some reason, businesses, leadership teams, and businesses don't see it. And sometimes they look the other way, is, I still don't understand how that happens. Because, you know, if everyone just looked for the physical manifestation of abuse in in a business sense, they would see it very, very clearly, you know, and they blame the victim, not not the person that's doing the bad. I think what often happens in those situations, I had one that occurred in my past, where one of the leaders, a big leader, had a problem with his temper he could eat just did not control his temper, and many people were victims of that kind of abuse of really being reamed in front of other people, you know, it's really, but it took them a long time to really sit down and tell him now we're, we're done, you can either quit, or we're gonna find you. And they ended up doing that. But it took a long time. And I think what happens is, if a person is producing or delivering results, that's the challenge with companies are we, which matters most and, you know, if they're looking, can I find somebody else who can come in and produce these results really quickly, and so that the next quarter is going to be fine as the question and very often they're looking more towards the business side of it or not the people side, it's not an easy thing. It's on an easy decision to make, but it has an impact and this woman has gone through through the wringer. Right, yeah, terrible, terrible. You know, at the end, she was saying she realized that her capabilities highlighted the insecurities of these other person, you know, perpetrators feeling of a lack of self worth. Yes. It's like any form of abuse, the best abusers are good at hiding it, you know, and, you know, it's like, you know, you're in a situation in a public environment, and a man comes up and stands next to you, and you're like, is he robbing me and not? And they know exactly how to do it in a way that taps into our societal politeness. Yeah, but they know what they're doing. And then extreme cases of abuse, whether it's sexual abuse or bullying, which to me is the same, a different type of abuse, not the same. It's the same thing. They know what they're doing other ones other another big one was talking about a brother who, yeah, you know, many societies around the world, the boys are still kings, and they're raised to be kings. And every now and again, I'll see, I'll see this and nobody is doing that child of favor by giving them this exalted sense of themselves. But I would say to people, it's okay to leave a toxic family or to create distance from a toxic family. I know it's not easy, but it's definitely Okay. One more with her mother constantly compared her with her neighbor, who was a mage, and at least at the time was smarter, or at least she was saying, comparisons is one of the things that we do a lot. And it never ever helps us. But a mother and a daughter, right, so what is it? What does that say about the mother? To me? To me, it says everything about the mother that she, she never felt worthy, she was never as attractive as the girl next door as intelligent, as you know, but and her image has done right. Yeah, her mother, or somebody may have said the very same thing to her. Yeah. And I my sense is that, at least for some people of that generation, especially women who were sort of clamped down on when they were little, my sense is that there's a feeling there has been a feeling of, I need to get my daughters toughened up so that they'll be able to survive in the world, or something like that. And it actually doesn't help at all. In fact, it means that these roots of self worth that need to grow and develop, don't grow and develop, they've still got that structure holding the tree up, because the roots aren't deep enough, right. So you know, when you sort of think about it, you know, I mean, there's, there's so many things to it. But let's wrap this one up today, I think, you know, I'd love to get some experts on who can talk about raising healthy children, I'd love to talk to people about helping women overcome these challenges so that they can be better parents, I'd like to talk about to men about, you know, how do we address this lack of self worth, even though they don't think it's self worth, because there's all this bravado in front, one of the bits of research is a person can have self esteem, but have no self worth. And that's where narcissism comes from. So if you're not paying attention, you think they've got self worth. They've got self esteem. But actually, it's not it's not worth it is this bravado, I always like to leave people with something that they can use something I can take away. So I thought what would be really good, is just based on our experiences, and what we've done so far, let's just do one for one. What can people do if they're really struggling with their self worth to want to start, I thought about this, and I grouped it into three categories, three big things. And I think I would love for us to have a show or to talk about several of these. One is, one big bucket I have is to get new information, we've taken in information from outside that says we're not good enough or whatever. So one is we've mentioned before is getting professional help. The second one that I put under that is to read some books that will help you to start to I mean, this isn't enough, but it can help to start to see things in a different way. And I want to actually right now Name a book that I highly recommend. It's not it, there are lots of inner critic books, and I have like, seven or eight listed, but we might do this a different time. But there is a book that I would recommend right now, which is called The Four Agreements, The Four Agreements, and it's by the author is Don Miguel, in my Gu el release, are you i z, I would love to tell you about even that book sometime. But it's it's there. Three agreements that really matter. One is being impeccable with your word, which means never talk about someone else in a disparaging way. Because you have no idea about another person. Unless you're like a certified mind reader, you're making it up it has more to do about yourself not about that person. And what has happened is in our lives, people have said things about us that actually aren't us. If you think about anything like that, that the stories that we just read. It's not really about them. One of the things that people said is that I was just pulling out causes not being heard by others not being seen for who I am. false rumors, being judged unfairly, blah, blah. It's that people are saying things about it. So that's one don't take anything personally. We need to be able to not to hear someone say something and get it. It's not about us. It's really about them. And don't make assumptions. Don't assume that they know more than you do borrow by anyway, I highly recommend that book that comment. It's not about us. It's about them. I think that is a topic that is existed in the world for a very, very long time. But I also think it's topic and observation. I think it's something that people need Understand, like when you hear someone say, when someone says something to you, it's not about you, it's about them. It's absolutely true. But I don't think the meaning of it is widely understood just that my husbands are very loving and giving men and He will do anything for anyone. And throughout our marriage, I've noticed that sometimes people can't cope with his generosity. And behind it is suspicion that he wants something more, he's doing it for another reason he, you know, they don't actually just understand that that is just who he is. And there is no greater joy for him than giving to other people. And it's one of the things that I love about him. But it's also something I get him to have to restrain sometimes, because I know that he could just do it with everybody. But it's not appropriate for him to do it with everybody. Because Because we get this reaction sometimes from people. And I've always found that really interesting. So that observation to me is so powerful, but other people's ideas, it's it says everything about them, their life, their beliefs, how trusting they are. It says so much about them. Yeah. And the thing that you just said, when someone might say you're selfish or something, and you're like, No, no, that's the thing. Someone might say, I sometimes use this example. Someone could say to me, well, Kathy, you're not a good driver. The truth is, I know, I'm a great driver, I'm not just I'm excellent. I can park a car anywhere, or I can verify. I mean, I know. So if someone said to me, Kathy, you're not a good driver, you know, or you need to be careful, because you know, it would never go inside me or touch me because I know I am. That's what having deep roots on something's that you know about your self worth in, you know, things that you're good at. And so someone else saying that would never hurt us. The things that hurt us are things that we don't feel secure about. And when they name something, even though it's still about them. Like it's it's about them not about Steve, when they say something, it's not about Steve, but sometimes if if they're saying something that weird, we might say, Oh, well, it might hurt us, if we're not just really clear about who we are. And we don't, we're not clear that that's about them, not about us. Anyway, last one, don't make assumptions. Second thing is create and hold boundaries, there are toxic people around us. And very often, it's toxic family members, we didn't choose them, but they're there. And just like toxic colleagues or toxic friends, at some point, we may need to create distance. And this is what sometimes Andre, we could have a I would love to have a conversation about which is to create space means we have to have a difficult conversation. Those conversations aren't easy to create and hold the boundaries. And the last one I put is rewire yourself. And one is, you know, one, there are lots there. And I know you'd have someone that that but one I would just say is reflect on yourself, reflect yourself about what is inside of you, and then write down what a happy fulfilled life looks for you looks like for you know what anything you've heard, because some people, you know, what they've heard is you got to be really successful in the work and you got to be, you know, this kind of line of work or whatever, you'd have this kind of family. And actually, what you want to do is, you know, be an artist, there's I don't know, it's what is or you just want to make this much and you're you're fine. It's really going back to reconnecting with yourself and find out what what is happiness and success for you not, not from the outside. Yeah, that's my little list. I've got create healthy distance with people who are bad for you even family members. But it also goes back to better boundaries as well. But it also goes back to that magazine, if you're around people or staff that makes you feel bad about yourself social media as well in time to be mounted. Okay, so what am I in is identify and notice the voice in your head, that internal chatter that we all have, although I have met people without any chatter at all, and I admire them very much. And I talked about this in the book. But when I Aha, now, it's probably 2030 years ago, when I first started to actually differentiate these voice. I saw it as something else. It's not actually even me. Yes, just this voice that Sarah and the author of Positive Intelligence, have you come across his book, Shahzad Shamin. I think that's how you say his name. He calls it the saboteurs. And that's a really interesting view. And it was kind of the first time somebody gave it a name. But this is internal chatter in our heads. It's there. And it's saying to you, you're useless, you're pathetic, you're ugly, you're fat, you're never going to achieve anything better than a DA. This is your self saboteur. And you need to learn how to control it. So I can recommend Carrie Phipps. I did the Positive Intelligence course with it was really interesting. But I learned how to shut that voice down. But I know that the voice can pop up, and it pops out in random times, and it's so convincing. It will say that it will do everything it can to convince you of its right to exist in your head. And so sometimes it gets released, and you got to lock it back down again. So it's just pay attention to the internal chatter, separate it, it's not one thing, you can separate it, and then you lock it down in your head. So I've got this sort of visual box in the back of my head, I can't get rid of it completely, it does escape. The other one is get out of your life in whatever way that makes sense for you. And that's really about creating the distance and the space from people who've always been there, especially if you're young, if you're in your late teens, early 20s, you got to get out of your life, even if you've got a wonderful family, and a beautiful community around you, until you can really have that space to be who you are in the world without other people's ideas of what that is, I think it's really hard to grow up and to grow into yourself. And the other thing is mind your own language. So pay attention to judgment. If you're you know, you don't like being judged, but you're judging other people, envy, jealousy, hating somebody else for something that they've achieved, try and work to get rid of that out of your life. Celebrate, joyfully, anyone that you know, and their success and get to work on what you want to do. Don't waste energy, because it's a waste of energy them it all the time and the energy you spent focused on hating or judging or whatever somebody else is not being spent on you moving forward, how you want to move forward. So but you know, there's so many like, don't exhibit the behavior you to test. I cannot tell you how many people I have watched become the person that they hate in work in home, victim mindset, whole topic, and identify it. Right. So we've got some, we've got some really good ones. Yeah, yeah. So I'm looking forward to, you know, so maybe the next one, what we could do is really sort of start digging into, how can you overcome and then sort of spend more time Yeah, and bring some guests in, if anyone's listening, and they want to be part of it, we'd love to have you part of it. Whether you want to participate as a person who's struggling with your self worth, if you'd be willing to do that, or a person who's overcome self worth challenges, or an expert who can help people where we'd love to be able to go, you know, for as long as it takes. We want this to be useful. And we hope today's been useful. It's just the beginning. Welcome to How Kathy and I think, yeah, great to talk with you. Yeah. Anything else you want to say, man? We have a lot to talk about. I can't wait for the next one. Yeah, who do you want to invite up next? Who would you like to have even thought about that? I think if if we have someone who would like to share their experience, I think it's helpful for people to first of all, realize and get it that they're not the only ones of other people have gone through it. And part of the first step to making any change in our life is really understanding what's going on and really accepting here's, here's where it is. This is what happened and and then, what can we do about I think that's going to be probably more than one one time, anyone who is gone through it, or is even still there. And if it's, that would be great. Yeah. So thank you, Kathy. I'm very happy to have done our first one. I think Thank you, Andrea. It's great for me, too. It's gonna be the beginning of a beautiful journey, don't you think? Yeah. I love it. Yeah. And hopefully it helps everyone. I've decided today we're going to leave you with work Mary's uncommon courage. This is a song that gets stuck in your head. Have you heard it yet? Kathy? Oh, oh, boy. Yeah, here we get stuck in your head and you'll start quoting the lines. My boys. Great. All right. Speak soon. Okay, well, yeah. Hey. Calm and calm, calm and carry on calm and courage calm. And the deeds it's what you may hate. And the dodgy 20s. Good yo, calm and Karish Andrea wrote a book. It's really really full of ideas and they really stick your uncovered carriage. It tells you what to do. Yeah, tells you what to do. tells you what to do. I'm calm and carry and carry and carry. Hey, ciao. You know what to do who wrote it all down, put it in the list, give it a bit of a spin, give it a bit of a twist, make all the actions and get results. That's what the books about it's for adults uncommon courage and calm, calm and courage what is what is just the bullet just do the deeds and calm and courage. Andrea's on calm and Chiron calm and carriage. Get it now.