Uncommon Courage

Youthful arrogance or leadership failure?

October 28, 2021 Andrea T Edwards Episode 22
Uncommon Courage
Youthful arrogance or leadership failure?
Show Notes Transcript

I loved my conversation with my “almost famous” friend Joe Augustin. I read an article in Mothership (see link below) and it wasn’t the story discussed that caught my attention, but his tenacity and ambition, which felt unseen at the time. I could relate to it, though my experience has been different. 

We covered so much in this podcast, and I learnt a lot about Joe in the process, but the key things we talked about were:

1.       What advice would we give to people who find themselves not embraced for having the courage to stretch what’s possible?   

2.       Audience engagement is always a critical piece in the digital pie, and Joe is a natural at it. What is his advice? What should you be thinking about?

3.       And finally, for those getting kicked, not seeing a path forward, or all of the doors have closed, what should you focus on?

If you can relate, we hope this gives you the courage to keep going. Equally, if you are a leader, don’t miss the talent in your ranks. People with passion, excitement, enthusiasm, energy, etc… might be annoying, but with the right attention, you might just help launch a legend. 

Here’s the article we referenced https://mothership.sg/2019/07/joe-augustin-interview/

Connect with Joe Augustin here on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeaugustincoaching/

Connect with me, Andrea Edwards, here on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreatedwards/ 

#UncommonCourage #CareerThoughts 

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Unknown:

Hello, my lovelies. This is Andrea Edwards. And this is uncommon courage where we have conversations we need to be having as members of the Human Collective. Today I want to dig deep with my friend, Joe Augustine. And Joe is part of the no show, our weekly news update. But he's a really interesting guy who's had a very interesting history. And I think it's really worth understanding what went on as a famous radio DJ or almost famous in Singapore, as well as you know, the impact it had on him and what it taught him about himself, but also what it can teach younger people who are full of life and full of ideas, and they're not finding that they're getting that real support. But equally, how leaders can have a different mindset towards younger people who are ready to get stuck in then they're not always right. But if you can harness that passion, that energy, that enthusiasm, that ability to understand the field that they want to be experts in, I think we can unleash some pretty powerful stuff. So let's get stuck in. Alright, so I've got a famous friend, and I wasn't really aware that he was famous. But when I started doing the no show recently, which is only a couple of months ago, people started saying to me, do you know this guy, Joel gustan. And they had a bit of a sort of a sense of wonder in their voices. And I'm like, well, Jay is my mate. But apparently, Jay, you're quite a famous man. Welcome. Well, Hi, Andrea. I'm what we call almost famous and I know the article that kind of prompted this as, as well. It was literary title, almost famous. I am one of those people who almost is a celebrity, I think is a good is a good way to describe it. I am not a celebrity. I am a moon that orbits one of them. Love that. Almost five misses. All right. But yeah, but I had another experience in Singapore where I met up with I can't remember one of the names there. Were there were a couple of characters on TV. He spoke at one of the IPSs event. Oh, grimacing, yeah, so I had one of these situations where the boys were tiny. And I was in this coffee shop. And the boys sort of went running up to these guys. And we're having a chat, and I walked over and I went, I think I know who you are. But when you're, you know, a foreigner, you don't tend to watch the local TV. And this was 2003. I think, you know, when digital TV well and truly started so you don't watch the local stuff. So you come across these people and everyone's falling all over them, and you have no idea who they are. So I think it would probably be better to be almost famous, especially in a smaller place like Singapore. Well, I always enjoyed being myself as in like, in terms of the people who used to live on the hill or work on the hill, Caldicott Hill is, is that place where most of the celebrities in Singapore kind of like happen there because it was media court or SBC back in the old days, the people who were interested in fame, were always interested in a bit of glamorizing their images as well. And I was trying to be well known for being really normal. You know, I really, I really wanted people to expect to see me in jeans and a T shirt. So much so that I was extremely accessible. I don't think I was ever live in air that was rarer than anybody else. I always tried to be just the guy who was who was next door. And part of it was because I was just lazy to be, you know, to do the work to be a celebrity, because it is hard work, you know, at much rather have the option to leave the house anytime with a T shirt and jeans, then have to, you know, put on something special and to always make sure that my hair is perfect, and all that kind of stuff. And you must remember that I began my so called Media life before social media, so we kind of have a choice to do that, you know, we've had a chance to prepare for a photoshoot. No, it's it different times. And that's, I suppose that rear air is still the same, but there's more additions to it with us influences joining the throng as well, right. Well, the thing about glamour, which I took on board, which I realized, you know, it's just a thing that if you decide to do it, you know, it actually is something that's quite easy to do, right? The way you be glamorous and this is for real, right is never look directly into the camera, always be looking off a little bit, be interested in something else and be caught being interested in something else. It is actually the way it works. You know, we're such easy to manipulate beings that if someone is inherently well known, and they're not particularly interested in us, that makes them very interesting to us. Maybe for some but yeah, I'm with you in that not wanting to join the celebrity space because I think the cost is so high. I think it's also you know, partly because we both grew up in Australia and I think Australia does things to your psyche. Yeah. Oh yeah. You don't want to be front and center. That's where you get shot, right? Oh, yeah. You know, a few people know that I worked in Australia as, first of all, as someone who, ironically, you know, used to clean up rooms. And I say ironically, because they never cleaned up my own room. But I used to work at, you know, the Hyatt on Collins, I was responsible for 13 rooms a day, I was about done at about 10 rooms every day. And I have to kind of struggle along with the final three. And often with the help of either more capable women who are kind enough to help after they finish their work. I just an amazing part of my experience. I used to work in Melbourne, assembling bug killers. So I'm responsible for millions of deaths all over the world. Because I made sure that these high powered high voltage electrical, you know, bug killers worked. I'd sort of say that's not very Buddhist view, not presuming that you are Buddhist, of course, but equally as a person who grew up in country Victoria and went to university and lived in Melbourne, and also cleaned rooming in hotels to get myself through university. I don't think anyone in Australia should apologize for killing bugs. You've experienced it, you know how bad it can be? Yeah. But for me, we were we were exporting these bugs. So ironically, and I was in Australia, having come from Malaysia and Singapore and Brunei. You know, we migrated to Australia where I was working in this factory, which was exporting all these things back to Asia. So I was I was not killing local bugs. I was responsible for the more tropical kinds. Ross. Yeah. All right. So you were talking about this article, I think it was another ship or one of the Singapore sort of media platforms. But basically, the article is about this story of how you've been fired from all the radio stations and what happens, right. And I don't think you need to talk about it again. But I think there's so many amazing lessons in the in the journey that you've been on that I think could help other people who might find themselves in the same situation, similar situations, people have lost hope, you know, people, when they find doors closed, they you know, they can go down a very dark path. And I've always seen a door closing as an opportunity for something new. But not everyone can sort of move into that mindset. But one of the messages that came through was the between the lines that always felt like you've been constantly trying to do new things, new innovations, new ways of doing things. But it isn't always received in the right light. I've related to it, because I've been in the same boat as you. So I just wanted to get an idea of what's your advice to people who find that they're just not being embraced for their innovation for their mindsets for their creative ideas, because we're in a time where we need to create things that don't exist right now. And people need to feel the confidence and the support to be able to do it. So you did it for years just trying new things and often getting slapped down for doing it. What would you say to people, I would say the lesson that I learned from my experience was that I should have woken up earlier, I have this constant desire or hope that I can change things around me I've always have that I'll go into a room where everything is just completely not the way it is. And and I can see that the culture is such and such, right? And I have the audacity to think, oh, I can change this. Right? So in that way, I am the quintessential woman of the 90s. I'm here to change you, honey, as you were asking that question the answer that I wanted to come up with and say listen, move faster as in, if you're in a situation like that recognize, first of all, what can be changed what is changeable if you realize that the environment you're in is so entrenched, that you would be destroying something else altogether, that that is valuable to other people, then you need to go and do it somewhere else. And unfortunately, you know, if you happen to be in broadcasting in Singapore, then they're not many other places you can do that. Or at least at the time, they don't know how many faces you can, you could have done, man. But that is completely different now, right? I mean, now nobody, you know is restricted. Anyone who really wants to put out something a show a podcast, a live stream, whatever it is, you can you don't even need, you know, a studio, you just have to have your phone and a data plan and, and you can just log on to Facebook and say go live in your life, you know. So in terms of that opportunity, I think some people are held ransom to it, because they think that this is the only way I can do what I'd really love to do. So I'm going to try and figure it out. But yeah, the lesson is learned faster. I was retrospectively stupid. I mean, I spent a very good part of my life in an organization that I tried to change and I eventually was so disgruntled with the way they handle the idea of talent and, you know, in ideas in general, that I I was forced to take an action I was forced to To leave not not by them, but by my own disgust at myself for staying, I would, you know, I would look in the mirror, and I would feel the pain, you know, I'm not leaving. So I finally did what I had to do, which was to leave and to try and change and industry and and this, again comes with a very healthy dose of megalomania, right, you think you can do everything, and you don't have enough knowledge to know that there's a lot more to life than what you think you know. So I did, I actually went across the road, I left the big organization and I went to the other radio stations, there are a few radio stations that are in Singapore. And for a while, you know, I really changed things. But I again didn't know the stuff that I didn't know, which was basically that, you know, I have to deal with this thing called culture. I have. I've always been terrible with culture, I've always tried to bring in the gala. terian way of thinking it's, it's romantic, but unhealthy? Yeah, I think another thing that I've discovered is you've got to have the confidence in your ideas in the first place. And that's where people really struggle with just that, you know, they can say that something can be better. And the confidence to drive the change you think is something that's something you've got to give yourself some kudos for, right. But the other thing is, if you can be confident in the idea of what you want to do to the change that you want to drive, work quietly, and get it to the point where nobody actually noticed that and by the time they do notice it's too late to change it because it's already a done deal. And it's success, hopefully, and if it's not a success as a failure, but that's okay. As far as I'm concerned, that's okay. Because the failure is a huge opportunity to learn big lessons that you can move forward, and you can be better, but work quietly and build what you want to do without making a big song and dance about it. And you've got actually more chance of getting innovation out there in the forefront in business, that they're not necessarily willing to give you permission to start trying to do. So that's another tip that I found. Well, that might actually be your next book, you know, sneaky success by Edwards. Yeah. But the other thing is confidence in your ideas. Like, you know, I think that's a really, really big, big part of success. And, you know, so I've written some blogs, years ago, I've written these blogs. And right now I'm seeing well famous influences in science, you know, government positions, or even, you know, world's best selling authors. And they're presenting exactly the ideas that I've been, I've been pushing out into the world like years ago, the good thing about it is, it's given me greater confidence in my ideas. The thing that sucks about it is they're getting the fame for the ideas. But I think for me, the biggest benefit is everything I say everything I've been doing, it's not not saying everything's right. But the big ideas that I've got out there now have been validated by some of the greatest minds in the world. And so that's given me great confidence. So I think, you know, building confidence in yourself, is really where I think the biggest focus needs to be. Would you agree with that? Well, I think confidence is certainly one of the things that I was bestowed with as a child. So if this came up several times in my report cards, overconfident that was a thing, and it's not supposed to be a problem. You know, I think I think confidence isn't something you should worry about. But I was that kind of person who felt this deep sense that I could do anything. And part of that I have to give, you know, credit to my mom for setting me up that way. But I think what I had was a combination of great confidence, but it wasn't completely unchecked. As in, we had an environment way. We always talked about, you know, your your thinking about, you know, weigh up the ideas and do some deep thinking about the stuff you're doing. So that when I embarked on anything that I really wanted to do, it was usually because I had sufficient evidence to say that I could be confident about this. Now, the reverse or the other. The flip side of that, also is that they inhibit insufficient research that I wasn't aware of, right. But I'm one of the few people I know that learns how to swim. And I mean, not not the very first time I dropped in the water and, and I was able to paddle around, but I learned how to swim properly. From a ladybird book, you know, and what it was was just me, you know, observing, thinking, understanding, and being confident enough to go like, I know how this works, and therefore I can do it. And so I improved myself greatly as I suddenly became a really good swimmer. And it was because I had learned from a book and I was able to do this with airbrushing as well. I have never touched an airbrush until after I had read many, many books and one of the first things that I did as a piece once I finally got myself an airbrush and all the all the kit was I immediately went into creating a piece, which some people just thought was commercial It was just well done enough. And it was one of those things, it's just that kind of crazy confidence to do things I and I have this thing about being bold with the steps as well, I really like to go from zero to over going too fast in a very short time. And at the same time, I was also good at failing fast as in like, you know, I would, I would sometimes try out stuff and go like, Okay, this is really not working. And I would, I would fail out of it quickly as well. And that's really interesting. I've got some thoughts, but I won't share them, but of things that I've things that I've learned. So it wouldn't be reading better be watching, it's more how your brain works, how your brain thinks, because I think you know, you've got, you've got an interesting mix of Australia, Singapore, and Malaysia, where there's very, very different thinking. And Australia is a little bit more probably free and easy. But at the same time, I find a lot of people in Australia do not have boundless amounts of confidence, compared to other cultures, they might be bigger and Brasher and louder, and all that sort of stuff. But it doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, they've got this sort of bravery in them, compared to Australians are famously linguistically Braves and intellectually, you know, like to hold back on it, right? Because yeah, there's much more respect for someone who can turn a phrase and use the the F word creatively than there is for someone who can organize an office into a business. I mean, that's that's just the way it's generally been in Australia. And I think amongst, let's see, when I was working on the factory floor, and if I was going to show any signs of becoming an executive, right, it would be a few seconds before the word Wangka came out, you know? Oh, that's so true. I did work in a factory for once, it was very interesting experience. Another job at university, there's so many people who don't have that confidence who who weren't raised by a parent who gave them either permission. Or in my case, it wasn't permission, it was freedom. We didn't have any, we didn't have overbearing parents, we didn't have, honestly, we could do whatever the hell we wanted, that we weren't sort of watched at all total latchkey generation, but we chose our path. And there's four siblings in my family. And we've all chosen very different paths, but the confidence in your knowledge, the confidence in your ideas, the guts to go out there and try them to sort of take a chance. How can we help people who don't feel that they can do that? You know, that they just, they just don't have that confidence. But if they did I say, what can you say yes to? And if you said yes, everything would change, I'm encourages step by step, you know, saying yes, or saying no. What do you think got any got any wisdom underneath? The one solution that will work is, is time travel, right? You have to go back, you have to go back in time, and you have to take away whatever it is that made their life comfortable. Because I look back at what basically drove me it was the stories of my parents struggle, because my father was a priest, Catholic priest, you know, the kind that shouldn't get married. And he did. And he and he had me and my mom very much wanted to be, you know, a nun. And she didn't make that particular career dream come through as well. Did you stay in the priesthood? Or do you need to leave? Well, it's a very long, complex story. The interesting thing about it is that he was he was actually given what he called dispensation. And that's when you get official leave from the church to be a lay person, right, you get dispensation. So you can you can stop being a priest. But technically speaking, you never stopped being a priest to giving dispensation from the Vows and everything else that come with that. So it's a very complex thing. My dad was a was a scholar of canon law and stuff like that. And so the interesting thing about my dad is just a quick aside is that when he when he was finally laid to rest, you know, in 2012, he was actually in his coffin, in his best pose, he was actually dressed as a priest, because technically speaking, and this is not true for many people who take the path of becoming part of a family or or raising a family, most of them don't go through the process of getting dispensation, and all the proper stuff. So technically speaking, and this is just legalese. You know, living in sin and all that kind of good stuff. But they wouldn't be able to be recognized as a priest to be and my dad was, so you have this kind of background where my dad has left the priesthood. He has obviously a family that is a little less than thrilled about the whole idea of losing this, this son that has taken up the ultimate, you know, job is as far as a large Catholic family would would see kind of being led astray in the story version, a man mind led astray by this woman. Oh, as the woman's fault. Yeah, yeah. And bombing the real story was, you know, my dad fell in love and then when you when you're in love as well, you do all kinds of strange stalkery things, right? Yeah. You know, so you either prosecuted or you get married, right. So They had a struggle, they had to struggle along the way. And my mom is this rebel who decided basically, she didn't want to have people tell her what to do. And so when she was young, she was so smart that everyone was saying, you know, your path in life is going to be pretty clear, you just do well in school, you're going to go from one thing to another, you're going to get scholarships, all these things are all going to happen, because you're so smart. And because she didn't want to have anyone tell her what to do. She intentionally flunked her big exam, you know, it's just that sort of person, right? So I'm brought up in this kind of a household where all these stories have happened. And despite that, life seems to be pretty alright. My dad's recovered my dad, I say, recovering from the priesthood, because you, there's so many things you're qualified to do as a priest, you know, in terms of marketable skills. So he had to go back to university to study law qualify for this, that and the other became a magistrate and all that other stuff. And my mom, you know, also managed to become reasonably successful in a sense that she never, she never took a job. But she was always just good at doing things, you know, she would be able to say, Okay, I need to learn how to do this. I was like, I'll go and do it, I'll learn it, I'll do it. And then I'll be and then I'll be professional at it. So she was able to make money when they wasn't a simple way to make money. So she, she put my dad through, through university by by being a seamstress, it technically speaking, and I say ladies of the night is not quite correct, because they weren't ladies, but they sure look like them. Now, Wow, that's fascinating. Well, yeah, that's a first I've met a lot of former priests, but you're, you're the first where you Dad just had a bit of a break, so that I can imagine like, your parents put themselves in hardship and judgment, and, you know, disapproval, they faced at all right, and they went, Okay, and they went and build a life, which would give them, which would give them so much courage. And you would have seen and heard all these doors closed and watch them take these chances and do different things. And I think just just that, right, there was nothing safe in what they did their choices, I have to say, you know, you learn good and bad from every lesson, right? So the, the, the tenacity that I picked up from their story, and the struggle is good, you know, that that ability to never say die, but it's also a weakness, because Never Say Die, you know, it's one of those things, if you're in a corporate environment, you know, I'm that guy that won't let the project die, because there's still something in this, we can still fix this, but but sometimes, you know, you have to move on. So I look at it, you know, as a double edged sword, you can you can make someone to tenacious and, you know, it leaves them in a position where they, they don't move along, as quickly as they should have. So, you know, many, many years ago, I was resisting the idea of, of taking on any kind of corporate role or office thing or to learn, you know, I had all these values that were installed that that well about, you know, money isn't so important, and, you know, integrity above all else, you know, and never compromise and this, that or the other. And it's all the stuff that my 40 year old self doesn't quite didn't quite agree with my 25 year old self, because you know, the whole wisdom part hadn't kicked in yet, you know, where I should have been a bit more concerned about money, because the irony is, I had money, because I was reasonably successful in the in the radio, part of my life radio voiceovers and doing shows, but I didn't have the financial literacy, that would have made me invest that money and save that money, and turn it into something else. So you know, there's a lot to be said about that confidence and belief in yourself, because you do it at the exclusion of other things, because you're so convicted of this is the right thing to do. And this is the only way to do things. You then say, well, I can't do it any other way. And because you are able to make this alternate way of doing things work, you then become, you know, it becomes a you know, it's confirmation bias, you're able to say that, yeah, you know, I use this. I mean, we've all done this before, right? I've used this not the right size screwdriver to fix this. So this is the way we can do it. We don't have to actually buy a whole set of tools, when the flipside is, well buy a set of tools. Yeah. Now it's interesting that you say that because I believe it's a very similar life, different path, but similar life as far as taking chances. And so the my number one advice is if you're comfortable, that's a good sign that you should change. But I know that I will allow myself to be uncomfortable a lot more than most and when I met my husband, he had to adjust to that because I need that it keeps me feeling alive, right but sometimes you can be your worst enemy. You don't have to make the change right just for the sake of So I'm calling upon checking myself. So I get that. And also, my husband brought the practicality in that I needed. But at the same time, I know that I still need to sort of sit in that integrity that I've always followed. Even if I don't get the results that I hope I can get, I'd rather not get them, then do something that's against my, you know, those real core values that I hold so dear, I'd rather not achieve than achieved fruit by changing those things. So it's all it's always that compromise, right? What are you willing to do? But I think if you can sit in a level of integrity that's important to you and not go outside of that too much. Whatever you do, you can be proud of, but you may not get the results that you think you deserve. Well, that's the the old test of looking yourself in the mirror and go like, okay, am I am I proud of what am I doing today? Right. And I came to that stage, as I said, in the first phase of my radio career, where I had reached the top of the, you know, really the top of the mountain, I was the number one radio station during the morning show. And in those terms, you know, what else do you do? Right, what else can you do? And the one thing that I, that I wished I did at that time was had a mentor, you know, had someone who had a better idea of what I was trying to do, because I was having to make it up as as I went along. And, you know, it's a lot more dissatisfied with what I was having to do day to day, because, you know, I had no reference point. And the unfortunate thing for me is, you know, if you're in the radio industry, and you've come from Australia, then you are, in some way you're going to be aware of John laws, right? Yeah. So John laws, apart from just being a famous radio broadcast, he was also for a time the highest paid radio DJ in the world. And there's a real problem that comes out of knowing this fact. And knowing how business works, and knowing that John loss was the highest paid DJ in the world, because the radio station that he was at, was making about$11 million off his show, and was willing to give him six of those so that they couldn't make the remainder money as a reliable source of income. Right. And so I recognize the business idea behind that. And I was in the context of a Singapore radio station, which, you know, was completely different, that did not have the same kind of appreciation of talent, you know, and I was still responsible for a large amount of income. No, and I wouldn't say that I was the sales guy who brought in the sales, but I was one of the guys who made the sale possible, right, because the ratings were good, and people were interested in spending money on us. But if you have that kind of thing happening. And again, I don't want to say that this is healthy, this is this is very much responding to your monkey brain, you know, you're just, it just a monkey, who has been given the cucumber for doing the same thing that the monkey next door got a grape for. You're gonna get upset. And I got deeply upset, and I tried to change the world. And sometimes you have to kind of, I don't know, step out of a go like, Oh, hang on, what is it that you can change? What are you trying to change? Are you trying to change the path of the mountain? Or you're trying to do the impossible and change the mountain itself? Yeah, I think I think your earlier point about getting a mentor, like finding somebody. So when I was at Microsoft, I was very fortunate, there was a lady there who was in the executive ranks. And she took me under her wing. And we're friends, you know, and to this day, and it gave me an opportunity just to throw my ideas around with someone who respected my way of thinking, and wasn't scared of what I was saying. Whereas other people, I couldn't necessarily, I couldn't test the ideas out because I was coming to my decisions by having hundreds of conversations with different people and taking all of their feedback and looking for the consistent threads. And so it wasn't data driven in their mind, there was gut driven, but I was as right as somebody who was data driven. And I just couldn't get that I couldn't get my ideas understood by people from that perspective. But this lady, she really listened to me and she could hear what I was trying to do. And she also was speaking to the same people. And so she could hear what I was saying. And it was just another just lucky that she sort of walked into my life at that point. But finding someone and it doesn't even have to be somebody in the company. So if you're in your mid 20s, and you're passionate, you got big ideas and you want to change the world, probably one of the best things you can do is invest in somebody who's a bit older, a bit wiser, maybe and taking a slice of humble pie before you start you know that search as well because, you know, I remember my 25 year old self and because I had worked as hard to be good and this was a problem again, like like I said before about learning to swim and learning to do airbrushing and stuff, right? So I said I want to be a radio DJ. I went ahead and said okay, now how do I be the best at this and really worked hard at it and I went to find worthy examples of it. Right. So the industry that was running at a time here, it just wasn't a great example for me because a few years prior to when I arrived, and I'm not saying that it actually had changed when I arrived there had begun to change before I arrived. But to give you an example of what Singapore was, like, they used to be one English radio station. One, you know, I think one of each major language in there was a classical radio station, and there were a few basic things, right. And overall radio listenership in Singapore at the time was just 40%. So when there was nothing else on to compete with it, radio was extremely irrelevant. It was not interesting. And it got interesting, you know, it got interesting, because across the waterways in Batam, radio station decided to stop broadcasting and broadcast that a commercial style, which was just so different for the audience, that they just went gaga for it. And then that led to a kind of tit for tat wall of launching this radio station and another radio station. And I arrived, you know, in the, in the early stages of that, and still at a time when people you know, in the radio business, really thought that this was the worst thing that could happen to you. If you receive the note that said, Okay, you're doing the morning show, you know, I was the guy who wanted the morning show, when everybody else was saying, no, no, I want to do a morning show, you know, because I don't want to I don't want to wake up that early. It's crazy, right? Yeah. So yeah, the thing about kind of, like, taking your experience from some somewhere else, you know, like, like, sort of, you know, having been somewhere else, having seen a different perspective, that helps as well. But the thing that I was really poor at was understanding how foreign this idea was to people who were living their lives. Okay, before I came along. This is the one regret that I have the most, is this name? Is this brazen? I'm behaving like the white man conqueror coming in, like, No, these are the way this is how you do things, you know, it's the way it's done, right? Without any kind of respect for how it was being done before. And what happens is, even if people are wrong, it doesn't matter whether they're right or wrong. They just don't like you. Yeah, right. And even if you're the person who does things the best. And if people don't like you, they're going to try and look for more reasons not to like you. So that was that was the thing, and I, you know, I look back with regret of that, I think a mentor would have helped because a mentor would have settled me down a bit. But I also know they would have been really difficult for myself to find someone that way. Because I was such such an asshole. You know, I was, I was the guy was so convinced, because I had done all this research and learning that there was nobody else in this environment that could be that mentor for me. And I was probably right. But what I didn't do was I didn't go further. I didn't try seeking someone else. I couldn't find one with the organization. What I probably could have done with was someone who was not in Singapore, maybe someone who was somewhere else. Oh, no, I see that as a failure of leadership. You know, if the leaders of an organization can't see that 25 year old person who's done so much work to understand, you know, what they're going on about, you know, just they get it, they've seen they've studied the world's best practice, you know, they've put the work in, and then they've got the hunger to make it happen, but they don't have the maturity or the skills to do it in a way that's going to bring people with them. That's a failure of leadership to not see those qualities. And I've seen that many, many times. I remember one girl in London worked for me, she was brilliant at what she did, but she was an asshole. And, you know, nobody wanted to work with her. And eventually, she I mean, I was only like, 29 or something at the time. But eventually, she was put on my team, and I had to earn her respect. And I was I was okay to earn her respect, because once I had a respect, we could bounce ideas off each other, and she could continue to excel at what she was doing. But she she lost the arrogant edge. And the arrogant edge is just immaturity. Because if you if you do know what you're doing, and you just want to you know, when you're hungry, then the leaders of an organization need to say that's somebody that we need to invest in. So to me it's a failure of leadership not a failure on your behalf. Well, it is I agree with you that there was a failure leadership as in like they just on the outside saw this wild horse or ass actually, it's the right animal. And then, you know, didn't know how to deal with him because I was I was a different beasts from everybody else. And so part of this for me was not recognizing what the gig was. And I have a great disdain for people who who rest on their laurels. So I I came into that situation with my guns blazing. I got like, you know, you guys are here you all and remember that this is the backdrop. It's an organization that's built, you know, on what was previously a government department that became that became a static board and then evolved into a private company, just because it's changed. It's corporate status doesn't mean it's left its history behind. Right? Yeah. So you say that all over the world dry government companies that became corporates, they've always they've still got their government sort of culture in them for decades afterwards. Yeah. So so that that's the kind of organization that I was part of. And I was working for this organization. And I've never been a good team player that way. I've never said like this the way this is the way you gonna play this game, okay, we'll play this game, right, we'll play your game. I've never been good at that. And it's a skill that I think that I could be better at. And it's something that I've learned a little bit of, you know, as I've gotten older, and hopefully just a little bit wiser. There is one thought that I wanted to share with you about, about this thing about stages in life, right? So you know, I don't know if you're familiar with the launch of a rocket in this space, and how familiar with you are about the concept, but have you ever thought to yourself, why do they have these stages along the way? Why is it as it goes up, you know, this big rocket happens. And then this explosion happens where it breaks into two, and then there's a smaller rocket, and there's another rocket that takes you on the way. And it was only much quite recently that I learned about what happens. And it's literally to do with rocket science. And it's the way that the pressure of the atmosphere works, you know, to press down on the the gases that are coming out through the nozzle. And as you are going higher and higher up into your trajectory, what's happening is the pressure that's being exerted on the outside is falling away. So what happens is, instead of the energy being directed downwards, it actually is going more sideways. So as you go higher and higher, up further and further along the rocket launch, what you have to do is just change the nozzle. And so as a design, it works really well as you burn fuel, then what happens is you just tear it away, and then the the next nozzle takes over. And it's a different nozzle all along the way. Until finally what happens as you as you're doing your final bit of space, it's not a very large rocket that needs to push you along, and not much rocket fuel. And I thought about this in terms of my own career, and I realized what had happened, you know, I had learned how to be this rocket at 25. And I was still this rocket at 35. And I was still this rocket at 45. And I was pushing in the same way. But the stage of where I was at, was changing all the time. And there was a different way to do what I should have been doing at that time. And the whole point is, you know, if you think about from a from a rocket science point of view, if you were to use that same rocket way up there high in the atmosphere, they would fail, because it's not optimized for it. It's too heavy, it's using way too much fuel. And it's not being effective. When I learned about it, and I saw that lesson, I came up with that lesson in my in my head, I just thought it was just so profound. You know, I had been given some advice by some people, and I was young, it was for that stage of my life. I had formed some ideas, you know, as a 25 year old, which I thought, okay, these are gonna be the principles that I build my life on. And I was uninformed. I didn't I didn't know enough. I didn't know what I didn't know, I did not have any, you know, financial literacy. I had no idea about that. You know, and here's the tragedy of the story, right? And I'm, I'm a 25 year old, who was this big rocket working so hard. By the time I was 35, I was paying more tax than somebody will earn as an income. I loved Apple as a product. And I never bought any shares. That was a mess, right? Oh, you know, I think we beat ourselves up. But I think collectively, especially in business, especially today, and when we were younger, you know, I've always been gung ho. So I really get it. And I've been gung ho in a different way, I've sort of followed, I've been moving around the world, which you've stayed in the same place for a long period of time during this writing. And so the doors can close when you stay in the same place. But if you've got an opportunity to move around, you can sort of, you know, you can start again, you can start fresh, you can sort of see the world with different eyes, but then also having the different cultural perspectives, you know, you know, I went from Australia to the UK, which was, you know, completely different to the US, which is completely different than to Australia and then to Singapore, you know, so all the different sort of cultural ways, and I had to learn how to, you know, especially in Singapore, I had to learn how to frame my requests in a way that went threatening to people, you know, just, you know, encouraging people to embrace new ideas. And the only I realized the only way I could get people to embrace new ideas was if they felt safe that I would fall on the sword if it failed. And as soon as I knew that, they felt safe. I watched people blossom. And so I that's something I really embraced because I didn't I wanted them to try things and I wanted them to feel safe trying them if I lost my job, I didn't care, you know, because because I could do something else. And that's kind of the way I've always lived my life but But what Seeing the beautiful creativity that was coming out of people was something I'll always be grateful for always heard the generalizations around Singaporeans and I think people are completely wrong. Some of the most creative, amazing people I've ever met in my life come from Singapore, if they're feeling safe, you know, and so safety is an important part of the process. Because, you know, the education is a bit stilted. It's, there's a yes or no is a correct answer, rather than a creative answer or approach, right. But um, but I think being able to move around is important, but like you were saying, the 25 year old shouldn't be responsible, the 25 year old, the dynamos even though they are complete, not a pain in the ass. They need to be embraced, they need to be nurtured, they need to be helped. And I think all 25 year olds, whether they admit it or not, and you might not have even admitted it when you were 25. I know, I certainly wouldn't have admitted it. But if you can come in, and you can point them in the right direction, or just take them off to room without destroying them. And just say, I saw that you did this, I can see where you're going. But I reckon if you approached it this way, you might get better results, you know, imagine that that sort of investment was consistently happening, I think we'd see magic. Yeah. And that's the thing about leadership and leadership, investment in leadership, because, you know, the context of everything I experienced was in a pre pre Maxwell, what's his name now, there was a blossoming of the leadership movement that happened, I think, in in the 90s, and 2000s. Right? It wasn't necessarily always there, it wasn't well known amongst the wider community. So this ability to look at someone understand where they're going, and how you can try to cajole them or teach them or influence them, to really manage someone, for instance, I mean, those things were not really things that people were equipped to do. So my managers, my poor managers had never been to management classes before they became managers, right, they had climbed the ranks, and became these managers. And when for some, maybe maybe they went for some courses that were based on some, you know, I think, older ideas, but remember, again, thought in the context of this environment, so if you have managers, specifically in the creative field, right, and if you have managers who have learned from managers who are not managing creative people, their expectations of how you handle something, or how you handle someone, it's going to be completely different from how you might handle, you know, somebody who has perhaps not followed a process, effectively. I mean, if you're, if you're a line manager in manufacturing, or you are, you know, maybe a manager in a accounting firm, how you manage someone who's making a mistake in that field, is very different from how you're going to try and manage someone who is creative, where you want them to take a chance every day, but you want them to do a bungee jump, and you want to assure them that, hey, listen, I'll be here the other day and holding on so that you can bounce back. And the other thing is, in a creative field, if you've got someone that they just want to get on with it, don't get in their way, you know, give people the space to do what they need to do and be there for them when they need you. versus the other way around. And that was one of the things I mean, I had a couple of managers that were just disasters, and it was mainly because I didn't have any respect for them. And they lost that respect, because the way they thought it just wasn't expensive enough for me. And that's a bit they kept fighting their their side. And I'm like, but it wasn't good enough for me. And so I just said, for me, it was just just get out of my way. Let me do what I do. And if I need you to come and ask, and they couldn't do that, and that was their insecurity. And I can I guess the the phrase that would kill you, right? Andrea? You don't understand? If I respected him, I wouldn't mind. You were talking about the arrogance before and that and that really is what arrogance is about, right? It's the lack of respect, you know, because you realize that you're saying things or thinking about things that is above the pay grade of the person that you're speaking to, right. So that that kind of that kind of this day, I always talked about it as being kind of a good thing as well as a bad thing, right? It's a horrible thing to own up to. But at the same time, you have to have that kind of the stay hidden for bad ideas are lack of quality or lack of commitment. You have to have a little bit of that snobbery in you where you go like you know what i This isn't good enough. For me, the only thing that makes something good enough to be done or used at any point is the times run out. Now there's no choice. This is the best thing that we've got right now. It's going out now, but there's more time and I could make it better than I owe it to myself and I owe it to the idea itself to do it better. So disrespecting, that's something I actually always really struggled with because I don't like to feel that way towards people. So we have a story of my son was abused at a preschool in Australia and the lady who did the abuse, I looked at her and I knew that she had absolutely been a abuse herself as a child, right, so I didn't hate her. I wasn't angry with her. It wasn't sexual abuse, it was just, it was like bullying, sort of abuse. And I didn't hate her. And my heart actually felt sad for her. But all the teachers around that had witnessed it for years, those people I couldn't stand and I couldn't respect any more, and I'd run into them on the street, and they wanted to talk to me. And all I wanted to do was punch him in the face. So that was one of those places I had to leave, because I just couldn't be around those people anymore because they disgusted me. Their job was more important was this while you were still in the army, just for context, I'm just. But yeah, but disrespecting people is something that I It feels like a sickness in Maine. So as the years have gone on, this is something that sort of come up. It's very rare for me to disrespect somebody now, they'd have to do something like I was like I was talking about with my son, but it's about me now. It's about do I respect myself? Do I respect what I'm doing? What I'm saying how I'm contributing to the world. So it's not all about me in the way people usually say that. But I'm not here to judge what other people do and how they contributed and what their experience is. I'm just here to do my job. And I measure myself on my my standards for myself, but I don't put those standards on anyone else. I think that's a, that's a growing up thing for me. Have you done that growing up to? Well, I've put it in another way. One is, basically don't take everything so seriously. Yeah, it was, that was something for me, I have that ability to turn, you know, what is a very harmless game of Monopoly into a, into a struggle of life and death, right? I mean, it's the kind of competitiveness that I have, which is very unhealthy. And it does come out from that struggle that my parents had, you know, this this sense of injustice and what is right, and what is proper drives me to do a lot of things. In fact, you know, a lot of the things that I've achieved in my life have been responses to people who've unfairly said, You can't do this, right. For me getting into voiceovers, for instance, was all because of one particular literature teacher that was in my school, who had absolute disdain for science students. He's an arts teacher, he teaches literature and he just thought, oh, you know what, I really cannot stand sign students. And, you know, one thing that he used to do it as a as a side gig was he used to do voiceovers. And it became my mission to take away what from him as a voiceover, and as a science student, you know, I mean, that was the kind of thing that drives me. And this need for vengeance has actually driven me to do a lot of things like that. It's, it's just crazy. It's if you tell me, you know, if you're going to lock me out of something, I am going to change everything around you. Right? So this began when I was a kid in, in kindergarten, you know, how in there were always the social gangsters, there was somebody who was in charge of the playground, right? And there was this whole thing that there was a monopoly on the rubber band game zero point with this one, where you stretch a rubber band across and you jump, you know, and the girls were playing it, and that it was, it was the girls in charge of that game, and guys just weren't allowed to play and they weren't allowed to join in and all that. And so what I did as a, as a 76, year old seven year old, is I went and figured out all the other stuff, you know, engineering, bought rubber bands, made my own rubber bands created my own counterculture, which was open to both guys and girls to play and all that. And basically, you know, that was that was my rebellion against what was already there. So you know, the rebel without a cause. So I suppose, Hannah's the rebels, that there's a spirit and a rebel. And I don't think we always know where that spirit comes from. But yeah, breaking the rules is something I've always done. Being told that I can't do something or being told that I will do something. I'm like you I'm stubborn. I'll respond in opposition to that just because somebody said it. And I suppose if you want to learn how to control someone like us work out what it is you want us to do? And say the opposite? Well, I always found that if they if the system that was around us, figured a way to just reward us effectively, I would have been happy. You know, if you paid me enough to do the crazy stuff that I did. I would have been pretty okay. I think the main problem that I had really back then was I was taking all these chances and working so hard, while somebody else who absolutely did not, was getting paid more for doing the same thing less well than I was, but only because they had been there long, longer. Yeah, a mentor could have explained that's how it works. And yeah, and could have helped you understand that patience is actually a virtue sometimes, right? But when you're when you're hungry, you know, and nobody's sort of explaining that stuff to you. It's kind of like are you just yeah, I totally get it. I totally get it. I was gonna ask you three questions, but done one so far. I want to, I want to talk to you about audience engagement, because quite from an early part of your career, long before social media, you're getting the audience engagement bit like you're doing traffic report that Oh, yeah. Was that before mobile phones or just as they were coming out, or? Well, okay, at that particular time, this is the way traffic was being done, you know, we had the police was doing their reports, and they would put those reports out by telex machine, right. So when they had a report, they would send the report over to our main control, and it would be generated and it will be copied, and it will be sent off to all the radio stations, and then it was confirmed. The problem with, with traffic updates done by way, and at the time was someone would report that they was a traffic situation, and the police would actually send someone out to check on this traffic situation, when someone got banned, they finally would radio into the police station, so that they would then generate that telex, and then he would go out to a radio station. So if you were on your way to work, you know, relying on that kind of, not up to the minute information, it was pointless to listen to traffic, because Singapore is not about you know, the two hour commute, it's 20 minutes, 30 minutes, you know, and if that kind of delays happening, then the traffic reports are completely irrelevant. So you know that the whole thing was okay, you have to wait for those reports to come in. And and yeah, mobile phones had just started, but it was also a, you know, they will because Singapore is how it set up the buildings that are next to to express ways all kinds of people. So I thought, Well, why have I just went ahead and created the unconfirmed traffic report, you know, and just took calls. So one of the things that I did, which is, was an innovation at the time, because one of the things that people didn't do as a radio DJ back then was really answer the phone. You know, if unless you had a contest, where you were giving away, you know, something to the main caller for whatever it was you just hung up your phone. And what I decided to do instead was I'm going to answer every phone call. And in that, as I answered every phone call and recorded phone calls, I got not only more up to date traffic information, I also found a lot of interesting content that just, you know, happens because you have this caller, who is just a little weird, right? Yeah, yeah. Determined to express himself, right. So that that was where we came from. So this this idea of doing the radio thing that was that was purely I'll be the traffic updates. That was just saying, Okay, how do I do this better? And how do I become relevant and in the context of it as far as I come from Australia, and I've seen how traffic works. I mean, they invest in helicopters to see how traffic is doing. So you can get that information. And so it's useful to the audience. And so because of that, we were the only ones speaking the truth as far as the audience is concerned, because they would be listening to everybody else talk about traffic as though it was okay. They be stuck in traffic while they were listening to that. And the only radio station that had any idea that traffic was happening was our radio station, because we were saying, I'm getting reports on animal Q Avenue three, it's slowing down right now. And as we get to a 30, the build up is going to be happening to about, you know, Avenue five. So thanks for the updates. If you have any updates, call us tell us and we'll pass them along. And so I mean, and that was all about audience engagement, which is really, really important right now. And I know that you were doing things like online jokes, and it's not a visual platform. When you when you think about audience engagement, like what do you think is the essence of being successful to engaging an audience so people can take away whether they're on social media, blogging, doing YouTube videos, whatever it is that they're doing what people always got to keep in mind? I think if you if you audit yourself, and you said that, if they had not listened to this show, they would be absolutely no difference in their life, then you are, you're relying on just goodwill to have someone pay attention to you. Yeah, right. You've got to be saying something or having thought about something different enough so that it was worth somebody spending some time to pay attention to that, you know, that's and that's the thing it was it was an upset me about radio, you know, back then as well as like, you know, everybody else was doing stuff which you didn't really have to work at doing as in like, people wouldn't even do research like, like printing out news stories. What I would do as part of my research was to go to the Telex machine and you know, we have a news room and they were using the the Reuters system to write their stories. But you know, in the, in the radio stations themselves, we also had access to the same machines, but I was the only one I knew was who was actually you know, trawling for stories saying, Okay, this is interesting story. I can try and find angle on that. Reuters always have the weird news that was part of the daily thing, and I would, I would, I would go into that and use that as well. But it's about doing the extra thing to what kind of than just the Opening up the newspaper because you know, it used to be a common thing you would you would you would listen to radio and literally hear the newspaper in the background as they were just looking through the papers. And they wouldn't even editorialize that much. So you would almost hear the same thing that was actually said in the papers on the on the radio as well. So how is that going to be something that's worth paying attention to? You know, so, for me, it was always about how do I do that? How do I add to this? I always talked about humor as being something that was important as well, you know, and I gotta say, I mean, I'm embarrassed to listen back to some of the stuff I did when I was 2122. I mean, you know, it was, it was really basic stuff. But I evolved. But you know, I always tried taking chances, you know, is tried pushing it out there a little bit. And I always said, if someone's listening to the radio, they're listening to your show. And if they suddenly realize that people around them are laughing, and they didn't quite catch the joke, they realize, oh, I need to pay attention to this because something happened, you know, and then I missed it. Yeah, exactly. It's always about, it's always about doing something that you have to pay attention to. And a lot of people are worried about doing things that require attention. You know, the irony is they want to do stuff that doesn't draw too much attention. And really, the the fact is, you need to get attention, you need to have someone recognize that you are someone to listen to, or a little bit at least get the clue that okay, you don't send some attention this way, so that you can at least have a chance to assess if this is worth listening to. Yeah, no, I like that. I mean, you know, I believe that we're all in the business of earning people's time today. So everything you do, you have to be conscious that we are asking people for time when we put our own stuff out there, podcasts, videos, whatever. But the other thing is, don't be the same as everybody else. If everybody else is doing it. It's not a good idea. I mean, you know, Nas is one minute, I'm seeing all these NAS one minute, is that just with a different name, and I can't watch them, because it's the same I just can't do that drives me nuts. Yeah, sameness of everything, the cookie cutter approach. I'm like, Oh, for God's sake, I want something I want something I've never seen before. And, you know, the other idea that it should be short, I'm like, because people don't have attention spans. And I'm like, I'm not going to feed into that, because then I'm feeding into the stupid economy, which, you know, we've been building up for a really long time, which is creating colossal problems all around the world. So yeah, just be yourself. And I think the curiosity and do what nobody else is doing, you know, you were doing the Bloomberg weed stories. I mean, you know, that's an obvious to me, right? Go for the weird stuff, make people laugh, we all know, you got to, you want to make money, you got to make people laugh. All right, final one. All right. For those people out there, they're getting kicked for being who they are, they haven't had a leader harness that energy, they can't see a path forward, or because all of the doors have been closed, or, you know, whatever it is that they're feeling. You know, we know a lot of people, they're just feeling really down, they don't know what to do next. People have lost hope. People have lost a job and they feel they need to spare because the economy's not looking good, all that sort of stuff. What's your advice to him? I am speechless at this point. I was trying to think about this, you know, the kind of advice that I would have given before and I think that the advice that I would have given before would be you know, just do it, go out there and just get hold of something and just do something, and you'll find the strength. And one of the things that I have become a bit more aware of recently is actually how some limitations are real. You know, I it's one thing that someone says to you, you know, there are no real limitations in life. And in some ways, from some perspectives, yes, that's true. But there are also sometimes some real things that get in the way. But what I would suggest is you look at what those things are, and start chipping away, you know, the, the person who is unable to, let's say, start engaging an audience on Facebook, right? Because they're shy, because they don't speak well. Or they, you know, can't even speak, they think in terms of language as well, they don't have the command of language. And if so many reasons why they can't do that. They don't have a good camera, they don't have all those things, right, you're not going to solve in one you're not going to get you're not going to be able to take it all aside and overcome that. But you have to start chipping away, and just going okay, I'm going to go from here to this next thing to this next thing to this next thing, because ultimately, I want to get to that thing at the end. The other thing that I was going to do as well is that you know, look outside or look in a different direction because you know, when I when I'm doing like when it comes to wealth, for instance, right. Many of us grew up thinking there's only seven ways that you're going to get wealthy and because of that you actually reject some other ways of getting relative because you know, that's just not possible. Right. So a really good example right now is cryptocurrency. And there is a very, very, very strong view by some influential people and powerful people that this is not real, that none of this is real. But the the questions I always philosophically ask back is well, and how real is money in general? Right? The American dollar, for instance? What is real about that? It's physical. Yes, you've got that dollar there. And what else? You know, it only exists because everybody agrees that? Well, we agree that this is $1. So understanding what cryptocurrency is, for instance, and understanding that it's going to make a difference in the way the world works. And future is, is one of the ways that people are not looking at in terms of developing their own wealth or understanding the future. Right? Yeah. And what has been interesting for me is to watch Warren Buffett right, so Warren Buffett hasn't come along yet to cryptocurrencies and he still he still thinks of it as not the real thing, right. But if you look at his portfolio over the years, you wouldn't realize that Apple wasn't a real thing for him for quite a while as well. But over time, he has come to realize that Apple, which is a conglomerate of, you know, as a technology company, yes. But it's really about services, is now a good enough investment for him to put in his portfolio. And he has changed in his his approach or assessment of what Apple is as a business. So you know, that kind of openness to what is different and what you don't know. So if you think you're not getting anywhere in life, and you failed, and you think I can't, I just, I just can't do anything from this point moving forward. Don't be afraid to look with eyes wide open to look outside of the usual realm. Right. So another example for myself was actually in the in the area of trading. So in 2003, I was exposed to trading for the first time, what most people learn is they learn about stocks and shares, maybe from their parents, or they they learn about this from the media, like they you see how someone reads the newspapers every day, or listens to the news about the Top gainers and stuff into you slowly get an idea, right. I didn't have that financial education. But I learned about forex trading. So this is this is jumping into the deep end the Whirlpool and trying to do something like that. And understandably, I didn't do too well, you know, I failed at it. And then as you as you fail at different things, you begin to look around for reasons you fail and how it's going to fail. And you think, okay, there's no way I can use this, because it doesn't match my personality, I can't, I can't ride this horse, I shouldn't be doing it. And I held on to the idea for many, many, many years. And it was only until recently, when I when I met someone who I completely did not expect to be the person they turned out to be, who talked a little bit about trading, that I learned, oh, there is a way there is an actual way to do things where they're getting a level of success, which the only explanation other people can give you is it's a scam, this is not the real thing, right? But I kid you not I'm working with this guy, this this mentor in trading right now. And what he does is at the side of the mouth, he starts off with a clean account, you just start with $10,000, or $2,000, or sometimes just a few 100 bucks, right? And for sport, he trades his way to a big end of the month. And the first time that I met him, he had taken his$10,000 and by the end of the month had $144,000 in his account. And you know, and I was very suspicious about this, I came up with all the reasons that it couldn't be real. And what happened in the end was I engaged him as a mentor to learn more about him and be fully skeptical. And at the same time thinking, Okay, now how can I learn this, I can teach this teach this to somebody else? I saw it, it is completely possible, if you know what you're doing. And the problem is the world works this way. A lot of people who have no idea how exactly it's done, believe that there's a certain way that it's done. And they borrowed this opinion from somebody else. And they had some confirmation from their own, you know, practice and stuff. And they say, these are the rules of life, you have to follow it, you know, you cannot make money this way. But I mean, this is just stuck with that. There's so many things in the financial system, you know, that all these things, my friends who come from high net worth, for instance, they telling me about the stuff that happens for the banks, you know, interest rates for for high net worth, and it's nothing like, you know, there is a life that is being led by other people that you're not aware of, and you just sometimes refuse to believe, but it doesn't stop it from really happening. Yeah, no. I mean, it's basically have an open mindset. And if you stand in opposition to something that you don't have the education to be in opposition to it, go and get Education. And that doesn't mean you have to go to university or anything, it means just do the research, go and dig deep and wide and listen to different points of view, listen to people you don't agree with, right. The other final thing is speak up on your voice. We've all got platforms today. So we brought it back at the beginning, when you first started in radio, that was the only past now everyone can have their own radio show, if they want to have one, you know, if you're out of work right now, be blogging, be podcasting, do video, do photography, do graphic design, but put your points of view out there in a way that is going to be compelling for a potential employer to look at you and go, Oh, they could be an interesting asset to our team. So don't don't hide away in silence too many people get a job and go on. I wish I use that time in between jobs better. So if you're in that time, use it. Don't regret it. Yeah, I think too many people also want to do something only because it satisfies their passion. And I know this may may run in the face of what you believe about things. But you know, there is a lot of value in doing a job, a lot of value in doing something that you happen to be good at that is economically rewarding. So you can get to do the stuff that you maybe like to do with that economic power. Right. So the process, which a lot of people have disdain for is marketing, they don't like to sell themselves, they don't like to market themselves. But one of the things that they got me as I was growing up is again, the 25 year old self right, I would hate networking. You know, I detest, anytime someone invited me to a networking event, it was just I was like, Oh, I don't want to do this at all. And the thinking that I had was because you know, I only go to networking events, you know, because other people want something from you. Right. And that was discussed that feeling I had. And the thing is when I became 40. Plus, I realized, you go to networking events, because other people want something from you. The only way that they're going to know about you as being the better source of this thing, if you're good at what you do is that they have to know about you, right? So that was the thing. And it took so long for that lesson to learn. I still don't like that working because, unfortunately, I am still semi Almost Famous, I'll get the attention of someone who just wants to get close to someone they want to take a selfie with. But yeah, I come to terms with like, like you know, your network, because you need to get the word out there. And networking nowadays includes putting stuff out on your socials and be more strategic about the way you you do things. I like networking just because I like meeting people. And I find people fascinating. And of all walks of life. I just Yeah, that's me. It's just a thrill. So for me, it's not to get anything out of anyone. It's just to hear other people's stories and ideas and that open mindedness we were talking about earlier. The other thing is, I do think you can do a job that you enjoy and get rewarded for it. It doesn't necessarily have to be your passion. But if you are someone who wants to build a career around a passion, I do think it's possible to just work out what you want to do, right? I've just always had a really clear goal of I just want to do what the hell I want to do. But it's freedom. That's what I want. I don't nine to five, the drudgery of sameness is something I've always struggled with, always. And my whole life has always always been how can I still see the beauty of the world and go on adventures, but still work and love my work? My background? And it seemed to have worked all the way through? So I suppose Yeah, and look inside yourself. Who are you? What do you want? You know, you how do you want to spend your life? How do you want to spend your time? You know, I don't understand someone wanting to be an accountant. But it doesn't mean being an accountant isn't awesome. This is not how my brain works, right? So we're all different. I hate to bring up you know, this idea. But you know, Tony Robbins says this very simple thing. And he's, I mean, he's stolen it from somebody else as well. Right. But the the quality of your questions, basically, you know, dictates the quality of your answers. And the problem that most people you know, I think have is they don't ask questions, they're not prepared to ask questions. And some of that's because you think you already know the answers. And some of that's because you're trying to avoid the discomfort that comes along, you know, with with asking some of those questions, like someone says to you, you know, I'm sorry, but you're not suitable for this job. You know, at that point, a lot of people don't they're asked the next question, which is why, right? What have you got to lose at that point? If someone's already rejected you, then what's the harm in finding out in that time, in that moment, you have the opportunity to maybe change your mind. You know, that's one more possibility. But at the very least, you're getting some research, you're getting some research done, you're getting some feedback on what people see it in you. And then you can go like, Oh, can I change that? Or is it just who I am? Whatever it is, but those are the opportunities right and asking questions, and I think for yourself, I was just thinking about why for you have that confidence, I think many times we get our confidence from at a young age when we have pulled ourselves back up. And we have succeeded despite something. And that gives us that sense that it's possible to do it again. That's that's, that's really, I think, the responsibility we have as parents, I find myself suddenly thinking about now is actually about teaching my kids because I realized that all I've been doing is just doing the stuff that I do. And I haven't been teaching the lessons to the kids, I've been trying to do that now. It's much easier to get the kids on board, this kind of learn as you go thing when they're when they're very young. When bear in the late teens and early 20s, you just become bad. Yeah. I, we were constantly having those conversations and pushing them outside their comfort zones, in that I like it, I'm like, tough, you're doing it. And because I know how important it is, you know, taking risks with their clothes, with their fashion in their hair. Important. Because if you can carry yourself in the world, when you don't look like everybody else, and still feel proud of yourself, all these little steps, I think they really, really help. I think what really also helps in your kid's case, is the fact that they know mom's gonna kill anyone that's gonna get in the way. I'm a bit of a softy really don't try to be I could be a tiger mom if I needed to be. But I want him to be confident. They're both very compassionate, I want them to hold on to that. I don't want them to lose. And I think a lot of boys lose, they're not encouraged to have high EQ, the way they're raised, whereas and so that's something we're both Steve and I are both naturally focused on but I want them to be gentle. I want them to not be ashamed of feeling. I just want them to be good men out in the world that know wherever they go. They're regarded as men of integrity, they take care of people, they're kind, they're respectful, you know, those sort of things. And nothing else matters to me the whole education focus, Steve's more gung ho about that. To me, it's like, it's not as important, because you're always learning to be who they want to be. And I suppose that's it, right? As parents, we're just where the safety for our kids and nothing good children know that they are loved. Above all else, you can't go wrong on that whole idea of being loved. And I think also being forgiven. That's the really big thing. You know, you're right. I mean, I remember as I growing up, the thing that would really just Just get me going, like, you know, it's okay, it's a, you made a mistake, but it's okay, you just felt that, okay, you were forgiven for that, and then move on. And that's powerful. And that's one of the one of the toughest lessons for me. And it's the toughest lesson to live right now is actually the forgiveness of this one person in my life, myself, I punish myself for so many things. And I really, really have to come to terms and say, you know, just just just let go. So you can be happy about stuff, the story about Apple shares, that's my living nightmare flashback every now and then I'll just, you know, I won't even be asleep. I'll just be, you know, at the wheel. And I'll think, Oh, I could have made so much money. I know a good book that can help you with that. But my husband's often saying, Oh, we could have we should have done this, we should have done that. And I'm like, was no point, no point thinking like that, because we didn't. So let's move forward. This is the one thing that I've realized for myself as well. Because all that regret that I have for my 25 year old self, right? I just realized a few days ago, I'm going to have if I don't do something about it, when I'm 75 for my 50 year old self, yeah, timeframe is exactly the same. And I'll only be 75. And based on all the stuff that I'm learning about, you know, healthy longevity and the way the world is gonna be apart from the fact that, you know, the environment probably gonna be terrible. There's gonna be a pretty good reason to have the rest of the stuff in order. So now what I'm doing very interestingly, is I am challenging my 50 year old self to live up to that 25 year old, you know, like, like, right now, I'm always beating up my 25 year old self. And then now what I'm doing for myself is saying, Oh, well, smarty pants. So now you are now you are literally in that spot. Right? You are now the 25 year old for your future. 50 year old self. What are you going to do this time? Yeah, right. I like that. There's your next book, right or your first book? Yeah, yeah, regret is something that I read a lot about an uncommon courage because it was a it was a very clear decision in my life. When when I was 24. My best friend growing up died in motorcycle accident and I had a I had a motorcycle license and I throw it in a grave and I said, All right, got the message. I'll never jump on a motorbike again, but, but I also made her commitment that I would never spend any of my life regretting because to me, it's such a waste of time and death always sort of puts regrets very clearly up in front of your face. I had no regrets with her friendship. We'd been good to each other. You know? In our 24 years of life, but I just made this room don't regret. Just go go take the chances make the decisions. If you missed it, you missed it. Move on. Yeah, that's definitely something I would recommend if you didn't get that behind you. But that's a good thing. Money, who cares? Life? Life? That's what it's all about having a smile on your face, right? Well, I, again, this is comparing myself to my younger self. I used to be all about laughing all the time. And then I got serious about comedy. Oh, Joe, thank you so much for doing this with me on you. And I read that article that we have to have. And we could probably go on for hours, but have a really wonderful conversation that just would go into lots of different spaces, because I resonated with a lot of what you said. And I think, you know, that's come through very clear, but to the younger people, or even the older people who've got that sort of passion inside of them, and they just want to go and they feel like their wings are constantly being clipped. I hope that we've given you something here to chew on go and find somebody go and find somebody into leaders out there look for the look for the crazy ones in your in your workforce. And rather than believe everyone who says they don't like them, because they're arrogant, Thomas, I listened to them hear their ideas. That's all we ever won. Oh, go quiet and achieved before anybody notices. Yeah, sneaky success. That's the follow up book by Andrea Edwards. It's another way without annoying everybody in the process. Hey, Andrea, thank you for doing this as well. I mean, you know, that they're very few people I know, that really get down and dirty and just do what they believe that they need to do. And you're someone that always you know, every time you've spoken on stage, and as you come off the stage, and I'm the emcee, I say something, which I really mean, which is that, you know, I always feel that you have kicked losses again, right. And so you're, you're always there, you're always doing it. So you know, thank you for doing that. Thank you for being that, that icon that, you know, that lighthouse that people can see, you know, of someone who's doing things about what they believe in. Thanks, Joe. I appreciate that. I know a couple of times, I've said things you didn't like so. But you might not have been ready to hear as well, which is the other side of being a speaker. Right. But now I appreciate that. It's the same for you, like, I'm sick of I'm just sick of everyone doing the same thing. And I'm sick of us not pushing ourselves to a higher standard. Because we need to in every way, you know, you know, I'm looking forward to writing the social leadership manifesto. And you've had an introduction to it. Right. But, you know, the way companies advertise to us, why are we putting up with it? You know, there's so many I want to do a podcast, we're gonna get a group of people and say, what's the stuff that goes on around us all the time that none of us are complaining about? And that annoys the hell out of all of us. Right? There's so much of it, and we just accepting it. And I don't know, I don't like the past that we're going on at the moment at all. Well, I don't want to start a new podcast right now with your new episode right now. But it's this thing that happens with us, which is essentially, we're all corruptible, the best of us, we're all corruptible. And we have to watch out for it. Yeah, we get we get comfortable, we just basically get comfortable with it. And, you know, we always refer to the frogs as being the ones who don't notice the waters warming up around them, the waters warming up around us. And we get comfortable with that too. And we get comfortable with it. You know, we don't we don't stop and say, Hmm, this, this really isn't the way it used to be. And I wouldn't have been comfortable before. But now I seem to be okay with this. Maybe I need to review. Yeah, let's let's do it. We'll call it the maybe the humans are the folks in the water now. Go Alright. Thanks, Joe. I appreciate it. You're a champion. There you go, a very wide and far ranging conversation and I hope people took something away. I love speaking to Joe. And if you know him, or maybe you thought you knew him, there might have been a couple of little new bits of information there. Like I had no idea whose father was a Catholic priest. So there we go. A revelation. But yeah, I just, you know, like all of these podcasts. I hope there's something that you can take away. And you know, building your confidence in yourself and finding the mentors that can help you on your path to success is obviously the advice that we would give to anyone. It's not easy when you're an ambitious, energetic, passionate person. Sometimes you just don't find those right people so always be looking for them. Anyway, there we go. So thank you so much, Joe, for joining us love to have in that chat with you got to know you so much more to Priscilla Joseph during the editing. Thank you so much for your patience. You're doing such an amazing job. Gary Krause at legend music Paquette who does all of the original music although today I might sign out with the theme tune for too uncommon courage written by Warwick Mary CC calm and carry calm and carry on calm and courage calm and the deeds it's what you may hate. And the dodgy 20s Irish good yo, God Karish Andrea wrote a book. It's really really thick, full of ideas and they really stick your uncovered carriage it tells you what to do. Yeah, tells you what to do. Oh, tells you what to do I'm calm and Carry, carry carry Hey, tells you what to do. Write it all down, put it in a list, give it a bit of a spin. Give it a bit of a twist make all the actions and get results. That's what the books about it's for adults uncommon courage and common common. What is what is just the bullet just do the deeds and calm and carriage. Andrea's on calm and Chiron calm and carriage. Get it now.