Uncommon Courage

How the hell do we get to equality, surely it’s time?

May 02, 2022 Andrea T Edwards, Dr. Zsuzsanna Tungli Ph.D Episode 60
Uncommon Courage
How the hell do we get to equality, surely it’s time?
Show Notes Transcript

During the recent International Women’s Day, it was a relief to see more and more women stepping up and speaking up about their frustrations that the needle on equality is not moving, in fact, we’re going backwards. 

What is it going to take, really? When you want to answer a question like that, you go to the expert, and that lady is Dr. Zsuzsanna Tungli Ph.D.

We covered a lot of topics

1.     Growing up during the communist era in Hungary

2.     Why we must address bias and what bias is

3.     How we get men on our side

4.     Why we need a global culture shift or revolution

5.     Why the rhetoric “white men are the problem” needs positive re-framing

6.     Where #MeToo went wrong but why it had to happen

7.     Why men and women must communicate more effectively

8.     How both men and women’s eyes were opened during the pandemic, as we finally saw each other’s roles in the home

9.     Why we must value unpaid work in the home

10.  Should we appoint female consultants to all CEOs? Is that an immediate solution we could move on?

And so much more. I hope you enjoy it and find value in this meaningful conversation. 

To get in touch with Dr. Zsuzsanna Tungli Ph.D.

Developing Global Leaders

Cultural Training Asia

Her book: The Culture Key Between Asia and the West: Essentials For Global Business Success

You can find Zsuzsanna on LinkedIn here

To get in touch with me, Andrea Edwards

Websites andreatedwards and Uncommon Courage 

My book Uncommon Courage, An Invitation mybook.to/UncommonCourage

And the workbook mybook.to/UncommonCourageAction

And my Facebook Group Uncommon Courage 

To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Unknown:

Welcome, Susanna, I'm so happy to have you here. i Hi. And I'm delighted to be with you today. And you just back from a holiday or working holiday in Europe. It was a mix of both luckily. So we saw our family as well as we have some work. So I think it was a best of both words, actually. Yeah. Nice. After a couple of years of not seeing family, right. It's a special time you're seeing a lot of people being reunited. I haven't managed that yet. In Australia or the UK? No, and I'm so actually I was I, I even have to say I was quite lucky. Because our children are at university and because they had everything online, they actually could come back to us. So in terms of at least children, we were we are kind of okay. I mean, in an anechoic. And okay, word. Yeah, right. Nice. Okay, so we are here today to talk about a quality the recent international women's day, I was actually quite pleased to see a lot of other women standing up and speaking out against the fact that absolutely nothing has changed. In fact, it's gotten worse. So before we get stuck in, I have great respect for your background and what you do. Give us some background. So personal background, where you've come from, why you're doing what you're doing and what your business is focused on today. I am one of those extremely lucky individuals that my hobby and my interest is my work. And basically what it is to work with different people, different organizations, different cultures, and I thrive on that. I'm also extremely lucky because you know, when you have to do those exercises, what values are important for you, for me, equality, fairness, we're almost on the top funds, so much so that my mom used to tell me that I have an overdeveloped feeling for fairness. Because I always pointed out, you know, let everybody know what's right and wrong. So now actually, in our work, developing global leaders, Asia, help organizations, teams, individuals to be more fair, and more inclusive. And the three areas where we focus on is cross cultural competence, which actually became much more obvious, I think, throughout these last two years, that it's really important to know how to work with different cultures. The other area is women in leadership. And I think we're going to talk more about it when we talk about equality, of course, and also generally about the just how we can be inclusive in general. So just how to be a better person really, but through becoming more inclusive, people are happier, people are more effective. So I think it's all been around for everyone. And this is actually my everyday work, which is, which I'm saying thank you for literally every morning actually. Even going back further. I mean, you've done a doctorate, you've published a book. It's not it's not like it's just a passion. It's this this deep background. Oh, yes, it started like my diversities journey. If you want started really early effect, I started as a financial consultant, but then then just calling now actually husband of 30 years, came with his colleagues to Hungary and wanted to give advice to Hungarian organizations, you know about financial statements, etc. And I realized that it's good to have the professional knowledge, and it's absolutely a must. But it's not enough. If you work across cultures, I remember the still extremely horrible pain in my stomach when we went to meetings to ministers and GMs in Hungary, because I didn't know what the foreign colleagues will say, which will not fit the Hungarian market. So that's how I switched to cross cultural competence, global leadership. And, as I mentioned before, the DIS fairness as it has always been endemic. So came this cross cultural knowledge to it. And then actually, I left Hungary and went to study in the Italy in the US. And that's when I realized how important this women issue is. Because Hungary because of the utopias utopia is the beautiful ideas which we had as communists. Yeah. But another, it's really interesting that you say that you're not the first female race in the communist era. So how old were you when communism ended? So I was just finishing university. I was well, when for us in Hungary 89. So I was 25. Yeah. And actually, for me, it just ended the right moment. Because I remember there was a split of second when I did think about do I need to leave the country. But it did just end before I have a second thought about it. And because I was studying economics in Hungary, there were actually a lot of professors who regularly went secretly to like World Bank meetings, etc, which probably the West had no idea about that is happening. But because we were students of them, I think they were quite proud. And I remember in 84, they were already telling us how things are going to change. But the reason I mentioned capital, communists is because one of the communist ideas is equality. Like we Really equality. And while by no means would I say that we were equal, like women and men or salary wise, etc. But I think we were more equal than the vast majority of the world. Yeah. Because and that's why I mentioned, you know, Italy and the US because I really in Hungary and I don't think I'm particularly integral person, but I did not realize what a big deal this was. Yeah. And like I said, it's not the first time. And I find women, especially if they if the communism era ended in their sort of, sort of end of high school end of university sort of times, when they then went out into western countries or democracies. They were quite blown away by that fact. And the way women spoke as well, the way women spoke about themselves, the way women spoke about their opportunities. I mean, the women backgrounds argue, I've met them throughout my career. And obviously, in Asia, we've got a lot of Chinese ladies that we meet, who come over, we're still in a communist era, that sort of Yeah, the the equality mindset and and I found that an amazingly insightful piece of information, because you just have a different, you have a different idea when you're being raised completely equal equally, right. I really don't know, you know, whether, and I haven't thought about it for a long while, but then I thought about it. I always thought that equality came from family. Because my mom was a working woman, she excelled in her job. In fact, she was better than my dad in his job. And I remember actually, when my mom used to put the food in front of my dad, in the kitchen, small kitchen we had, I was what, Mom, what are you doing? So So while there was equality, but I even wanted more equal? And I'm just wondering now, actually, was it the family? My mum was certainly a very, I mean, far ahead of her time, or was it all these things which I must have heard in the propaganda as well? Yeah. And but the quality part I certainly would agree with. Yeah, no, it's it's, to me, it's a really interesting thing. And I always encourage people to talk to people who come from different backgrounds and be really open to hearing it. Because nothing's perfect. And nothing's nothing's, you know, a disaster. There's good bits everywhere. And that's one of the things that I take away. It's a, it's a mindset that people bring into the world when they come from that background. It's a great mindset to have around. And it's difficult, because I don't think I've ever had anything else. Yeah, yeah. But I was raised in a really unique family where my mom was the breadwinner, and my dad was an artist, so he was always at home. You know, he was the parents to the children. And so, you know, in the 1970s 1980s, that was not a normal thing. So and the girls that are two girls, two boys in the family, we were, the girls were definitely given the bigger opportunities in our family, because my sister and I were on my dad's side with the first females born in generations into the family. So I didn't know there was. My dad has married twice. And in both times, he's married strong women. So he obviously likes strong women. So he's not scared of it. So yeah, I think the family side is a big part of it. And you know, yeah, and despite the fact that we have a quite different background, we both had very strong mothers. Yeah. And I think that, to be honest, I think that's where I am, where I am now. Because the confidence, and I mean, my family, but really, my mom gave me, perhaps subconsciously, maybe consciously, I really don't know. I think that's something which that definitely came from family and stayed with me. I mean, I may have been timid in situations or not to speak up and I wanted, etc. So there were all those issues. But in terms of confidence, whether I know who I am, and I know that I can get things done, if I really want to, I can do anything I ever want to. I kind of knew that. Yeah. So that must have been told to me when I was very young. Interesting. All right. So I mean, you're being running, you're developing global leaders, and you've got to talk about your book as well, for a long time now. Right. And it's been a successful business, but you've had a recent boom. Yeah. So in terms of subjects, I've been dealing with similar subjects now for 30 years. But developing globally is Asia. We set up now 12 years ago here at Singapore, with a small headquarters here with the facilitators coaches around the APEC region. And yes, yes, it's been going well, but as you said recently, and I think I shared this with you earlier, that it's amazing what happened in the last two years or so. I think it was not so much to meet to movement, more the Black Lives Matter and enters the Zoom word, or the internet word, because I think people just realize that for cultures people realize that they have to talk because you know when when you go together and meet some In one, so amazing how ignorant we can be. Because you sit down around the table, how many times I met people infrastructure courses, and they would say, Oh, I thought I had a great meeting. But now that you asking me who spoke who spoke, it was me. So in life situations that can happen in zoom, you really have to be very ignorant not to notice. So I think that was one of the reasons why the cross cultural requests really have become become many more. And, and I think just general, luckily, a lot of organizations, lots of countries, governments, talk more about equality, equity inclusion started with diversity. And that, because that's been our subject. And until two years ago, we had to convince people that Please believe us, it will be helpful if we do something for you in this area, whereas now you don't have to do any awareness raising, but just like doing the work, which we always wanted to do about, like, how can we create more inclusive organizations? Yeah. Well, I reckon you're about to get busier. So, yes, I mean, you know, we've talked about this many times, you know, together, and are frustrated. But I think, you know, I'll just put some data out there, right. So, with the pandemic, the common observation is that a quality slipped back on the generation, and that we're now at 200 years 200, flushes, before we get to equality. We also saw things like the rise of violence and abuse towards women. I've watched an academic and he's basically saying there's a war between the sexes, and it'd be good to dig into the me to the negative impacts of what I mean, when I look around the world and listen to what was going on and seeing all the different countries and, you know, the rising cases of domestic violence, women, especially single mothers having to leave their jobs, and it just felt like the systems of the world failed women in every country of the world. And it, you know, that there's certain things in a pandemic, that you would expect a playbook, you know, but if we look at other things, you know, women in leadership means business achieves high performance, more profits, and countries increase GDP. I was just looking at some Afghanistan data where the men are actually saying they want their women back at work, because they actually started to rely on the income and it's worth, it's worth so much money to the country, not just to the families, but to the country, the GDP and their people are starving. It's a terrible situation. And when we look at the footsie 100, only eight women CEOs, we've got 14% of women in executive directorship roles. And that's obviously the directorships you get paid for, we've got 30% of women in all the other directorship type of roles. And you know, the numbers keep going and going and going. And when I look at business, or government, the fact that they've got responsibility to the shareholders, and they're not actually achieving the best results for their business or, or for the countries, because they're not putting women in power. And then you go on to other things, like, you know, two thirds of the 796 million illiterate people in the world are women, we know that when women are educated, they achieved more 60% of the chronically hungry people in the world are women, we've got 130 million girls out of school, it's probably higher now, you know, the child bride numbers went up significantly, slavery went up significantly. And of course, a lot of people in Western nations can't even comprehend the idea that you would sell a child to feed a family, but they have no idea how challenging it is, you know. And then, of course, we see the social media discourse towards women in leadership positions, whether in government or in business, and it's absolutely disgusting. It's a big mess. And I think it's, um, you know, this academic that says, He does believe that there is a war between the sexes, I do think that he's making a point there. And it's not it's not serving any of us, right, but to say, Now, Thanks for seeing all these statistics, which does not exactly make us laugh and be happy. But you know, you said that, the way the world has failed us, but what hasn't failed us now. It never never failed us, in the sense that that's been the history. I thought about it a lot. And I also talked to people and read about it. And I really don't think I found any better explanation than the very simple thing that at the beginning of times, physical power was very, very, very important. So therefore, that's how I believe it started that basically men became the more powerful ones, etc. Then maybe add a little bit of maybe women do have basically some different instincts than men. And then that kind of worked and of course by now, the difference is huge. And how to fit exit? Oh, I've always an impatient person. Because just the other day. Oh, and the very typical comment came from white gentleman that all but how can we push for women? How can we have any targets? Or are they How can we ever say that it shouldn't be just married, which we never said, because it of course, always should be based on merit. But all those numbers, which you said, are just horrible. So what I'm what we are trying to do, and I think a lot of organizations is, I actually think that two things and one thing we're doing better than others, the one is, the main reason for why we are here where we are is the biases. It's as simple as that. There is a lot of research about it. I think practitioners agree as well. It's bias, mainly subconscious or unconscious, depending on how you want to call it, sometimes even conscious bias. Because, you know, I always believed that people are more ignorant than arrogant. So when you tell people that look, this hurts me. Like it that works. Even in the in the bullying in school, when you tell the child that, look, if you say this, if you do this, the other person is hurt. Most people actually don't want to do that. But you know, at the beginning of this bias times, like years ago, when I remember so clearly a gentleman said, I'd like to help but I don't know what to do. So anyway, that's that will be my second but but the bias is we have to do something about biases, we have to have programs, which will help and change the mindset. And that's that's the thing. It's a mindset change. It's a cultural change. And it's not just in organizations, it's in governments, it's in homes. It's a word global culture change. I mean, these are big words. But same for you know, sustainability, which I know you are fantastic about trying to support it as much as you can. It's the same thing. It's a culture change the mindset shift. And if we don't do it globally, then I don't know whether we will ever get there because the numbers are so bad. And one of the greatest things is subconscious bias programs. Now, unfortunately, at the beginning, these programs were not very good. They were very theoretical, you know, they said like, these are the 100 viruses. So what and sometimes the response, even some government's response, was that okay, then we stop these programs, because they obviously don't help. Now, that's not the answer. They have to be good programs, and very practical programs and have to show people that if you do this, this is the impact on the other person, and this is what you can do to stop it. You really have to create those habits and to my happiness. And that's why I should be getting more and more work now. Because we used to be asked, you know, to do like one program ticked a box. And now it's not a one program, it's how can we make sure that the entire organization goes through this program. And it's not just one training or two trainings, but sending out emails, putting together focus group discussions, encouraging. People buddying up to talk about these subjects. So it's, you know, it's like a change management program. It's never just like one training program. It's lots of lots of things. So that's one, and I'm very, you know, not everybody, you know, break bias was the theme of international yesterday, this year and an international women's month, can you just give an explanation of or an example of a bias that harms women, and their ability to advance whether it's a male, or a female bias? And the biggest bias, I think, is similarity or affinity for that other than even and put that bias, it's a human thing. So it's not just for women, really, but it was mostly women, because the leaders are men. So basically, it's a human thing that I perceive you as similar to me, I instantly like you more. Yeah, so the funny thing is that it can be just that be like the same type of crisps, or we enjoy the same food. That was enough, or we all went to the same business school, or we're all in the military together. Exactly, exactly. But one of these similarities is gender. So just by guys or girls, of course, and of course, you know, any statement like this is dangerous because it's generalization. So it's never true for everyone. But as a whole guys feel more comfortable or often feel more comfortable with guys and not just feel more comfortable. But let's say promotion, because that's, that's what I like to talk about the leadership because we have 50% of women at the bottom, many places, not everybody many places, but the leadership where we want really influence and decision making power. And so I am the leader and I am I am a guy, which most cases is the situation today. I want a good leader and I have a few candidates and very possibly, I feel have a best conversation, best relationship or I can relate best to her is one of the guys the one who I happen to play both once with, and I went out for dinner and we had a great drinking session afterwards. And I don't mean to be, you know, too simplistic about it. But, but it is a little bit like this. I remember from my, like studies years that the network theory, even then, like years ago, yeah, there were case studies about, it's not the person who get who is the best at her or his job, who gets the job. It's the best connected person who happens to be also good at their job, gets the job. And because there are fewer women in these networks, is just by default. If I may give you one example, which is not about women. But I think if I give you this example, that it's translates well, for women as well, in an APEC and it's real life as a tech leadership team. There was a new guy from Latin America in one multinational organization. Fine. We need diversity. Great. Within a year, there were four Latin American guys in the APEC leadership team. Now, do I need to explain? Yeah, I've seen it. I when I was at Microsoft, there was a huge team of Latino Latin American leaders. And yes or Absolutely. And it goes with India, Singapore leadership, absolutely nation, every country. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I totally get it male or female, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. But the same thing happens to two genders as well. But perhaps it's not as obvious because there are so many men that don't necessarily notice the but that's why I say that I think that translates well to this. So we don't get noticed. And one other important thing, if I may just say that, because we don't we run these female leadership programs, open enrollment programs. And there is an exercise which you always do, which I found illuminating for myself. And then for others as well. Just simply, you know, what kind of leader you admire. And I have run this exercise many times before for mixed groups as well. So we're running this women leadership programs. And in the third program, something dawned on me, I said, Something is different on this, what is this? And you know what, I noticed that, while in the mix programs, there was quite a nice mix of different words, there were a number of words, which were missing from the women leadership programs, admired categories, visionary, strategic, objectives driven, gets the job done. It was simply missing. And then I was thinking, wow, I will probably talk about myself as a leader, as I think a leader should be. So if you, my man, boss asked me what kind of leader I want to be, then I will probably say, I want to be inspirational. I want to be a collaborative, I will stand up for my team. Whereas what is he looking for? That I am strategic, I am visionary, I will do everything, which needs to be done for getting the objectives delivered. And then I looked up, and there is our research in London Business School. And they dug around lots of they have lots of data, of course, and they were trying to see whether it's true that men give a lot of lower ratings for certain things for women. And what they found that both women and men seem to rate each other roughly the same way, except for one category. And then I thought that I discovered something in terms of strategic thinking. Men significantly evaluated women lower on strategic thinking and being visionary, then women evaluated themselves. That's interesting. But so together for me this study, which basically showed that men don't think we are as strategic plus, then I saw from the women that they don't talk about themselves as strategic. That could be one of one of the main reasons business wise, why we're not listened to perhaps for the highest levels. I mean, I find that so interesting, because I think some of the, the most strategic and visionary people I've ever worked with are women. And I've worked with great men in that space as well. I think the way women accumulate information is not as respected in the decision making process. So if you're a male boss, it's incredibly data driven. And you have a female leader working for you who who takes data from in different ways. Yeah, which is equally valid, but different to you. That's an area where I think the male struggles to understand because women pay attention in different ways. You know, the whole intuition is stronger, naturally stronger. I believe in women. I don't know if you can tell me if that's true or not. But yeah, so I think it's about respecting the different ways of coming to conclusions and coming up with strategy, right? Yeah. And they're both valid. And actually, when you look at one style versus another, they're actually not that different that results. It's just Yeah. And you know, what you mentioned earlier on that there are studies now which show, especially during the pandemic, that even country studies that women leaders performed well, or better even now, there are some organizational studies. And I think we just have to be so careful, because the second even if it's true, because the second thing which I wanted to bring out as the biggest problem, which we have to deal with, is how we get men on our side. So bias is one thing, because that's subconscious. And if you don't know about it, then we won't change. But the other thing is that, you know, so many times just we just talk to each other. Now it's okay, because the two of us, but you know, I remember one of the panels discussions years ago, there were like two men or two women on it. So Women's Day, and a woman just commented to me that, what is that guy doing? What are those guys doing there? And I said, Thank God that day there. Otherwise, why are we talking to her? And, and I think we're still not there. We're still not that. Every time I turn up at an international women's day display coaches to attend, I am blown away by the lack of men in the audience. It's just how can we possibly have a Congress that equality is not a female issue, the quality of benefits everyone and you know, I always say, everyone wins with equality. But if the men aren't in the room, then we've got no chance. One of the things which have been planned and even talked to a few men, but just never got organized, but I hope finally I will get there is to actually have this man focus groups. And Australia actually is has like the CCC or something similar for CEO men who actually support women. So that's one of the groups I wanted to talk to. But there are also so many men I came across during the work life and private life as well, who would be very supportive. But I think, you know, we always have to ask the people what they are willing to do or what they can do rather than tell them? Yeah, we should be prepared and give them some ideas. But I don't know whether we ask them enough. Yeah, I agree. And that's the thing that I've been saying is, I know a lot of male allies in business, and I've seen them do incredible work, and they'll they will support women all the way. But they often get penalized in, in their careers. Where something you know, the next promotion was due and they don't get it because the the company said we need to put in a female in this role, which they do, but then that would they suffer? Right? And you know, just saw Tucker Carlson of Fox News has released some what looks like a Yeah, it's like, it just looks like this incredibly ridiculous show. And I'm gonna watch it because I think it's fascinating, but it's talking about, you know, men being men. And the whole message of, we're taking away masculinity is wrong. I love men. I love masculine men. I was a bodybuilder I like a guy with big muscles, right? Yeah. So I like men. But there's socially unacceptable qualities in males and socially unacceptable qualities in females. And we're not talking about that. It's not about changing who we are. It's just about making space for who we are, for all of us, right. But at the moment, there's a lot of men who are being penalized, and they have been doing the right thing. And I and most of them are sensitive enough and empathetic to know enough to know that it has to happen. But I do think it's on a wider scale, I do think it is creating some challenges in what we're trying to achieve. Because not all of the men who are being impacted are sensitive to why I think it's hard. And people a lot of people would not agree with me on this either or view I think for that matter. But since it's a culture change, it's a mindset shift. It's a global shift. It's, I mean, I've read so much it will be a revolution as opposed to an evolution. It's more of an evolution than revolution. But we would need almost a little bit of revolution to really change those numbers. I mean, you know, when Singapore can be proud, and they can be because their best advantage, according to Deloitte study that they have 13 point something percent women leading companies in the country, and that's something which is the best in the world. Was that over? 30% No 13 One 3.0 Wow. So we mean by the heads of the companies, and that's apparently I so much don't believe that I need to check but was what they were quoting it a few times in newspapers and other studies as well. So when people can be proud of that, then we need a revolution. And so coming back to what you were saying, unless we put women into some of those positions, which are currently men's positions, we will never get there. And it's a horrible thing to say. But in the big scheme of things, it may be a bit unfair now, to white men, it may be, I will never put in a woman in a position if that woman is not strong and good enough for it. But I think it's fair to choose the woman if, if they equal, because if you look at history, until a few years ago, literally until, in historical terms until a second ago, split second ago, it was always men who were put forward now to their benefit, we should say that it wasn't necessarily consciously that. So I would never want to punishment. But sometimes things have to set be set, right. And that always has some kind of, you know, pendulum has to go the other way, a little bit now. And then eventually, we'll come back to the middle, I think, so accepting some pain in the mix without, without seeing it as a loss of masculinity or a space for men in the world. And of course, the white man, which, which you mentioned, I've heard some quite famous people say, well, even Brene, Brown said, The problem that we have in the world is white men. So I actually think it's a really tough time to be a white man, I'm married to one, I'm raising two. I love them, you know. But we're we're also at a point in the world where this is where we've gotten to where we're heading off the edge into a catastrophe with the climate. And so we need a radical change. And even from that perspective, like when women are in leadership positions, they make better decisions for the environment for society, you know, so, you know, 13% isn't good enough, it needs to be a 5050. And whatever it takes to get there is actually about all of our survival. So it's not about the egos. And so we have to, unfortunately for some, and of course, if I would I was that person, I don't know how I would think because it does hurt. When you are disadvantaged, it does hurt. But you know, you said, you quoted that our problem is white men, I think we have to be so careful with this. And again, I think you could say, oh, I don't want to say what I mean, I definitely do if you ask my family probably more often than I should. But I also believe that, you know, as soon as you tell me I'm a problem, psychologically, I become defensive, because that's how we are set up as humans. And while I don't say that we should not address the issues. Of course we should, but somehow, in a positive framing, every challenge every problem, and I say that in our coaching sessions, and every challenge you have, you can read wood as a positive objective. Problem is our white men, white men need to become our allies. And the response is instantly different. I'm not saying that people will not be upset because probably rightly, there are a few people upset, sadly. But if you frame it like that, like, you know, if my example like what is this guy doing here, or like white mineral problem? I mean, just think about it. If I started an Intel came in, like, Andrea, I really don't like the way you started this. I'm sure that the next sentence you'd say would be very different from what otherwise would have been like, oh, it's really nice to see you. So it's, we have to be so careful. And there's so much knowledge about this positivity as well. Because we shouldn't overdo it. We shouldn't we should we have to be authentic and genuine. Because if you're not, it comes through anyway. It's a really important point. So I was quoting Brene Brown, and that is becoming a common thing, which I agree with you is creating, like, how can we be allies? When we're setting up one tiny group as the enemy, right? And this is a global enemy for all nations of the colonial history, everything? Yes. Right. And you right, like the guys that I work with that I know, they want to work out the right the way forward. So one of the things that rose when the me to moment, broke, right, so, so initially, I was like, this is brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I shared my stories. I encouraged other people to share their stories. It was an opportunity. We as females growing up in into our adult years, there was so much that was going on that was just accepted. And so my husband and I were watching the Netflix series on that a British pedophile with I can't remember. Not Weinstein. Yeah, what's his name? Oh, my god. I can't say no. W not Weinstein, not Ben Stein. Oh my god. But he's like, he was like, Yeah, Rolf Harris of Australia. Right. So it was really shocking. thing that it it actually happened. But there was so much that was going on like it around him that was watching it today was incredibly uncomfortable to see the way he spoke to the female broadcasters the way he was with women, you know, just in public. And but it was accepted, you know, and now we're here we are, and towards the end of his life, you can start seeing some of the male BBC type presenters sitting next to him looking at him, like, how can you possibly speak like that that's not appropriate anymore, you know? So we saw the cultural change, just across the story of his life. And you know, a lot has changed. But I think me too, I remember hosting an event. There's a whole bunch of financial services, institutions, leaders in there. And I was asking the man, how was this making you feel because I wanted to get there. And one of them, I think he was like, a CEO of one of the big top banks said, I don't feel that I can invite my female subordinates out to lunch anymore. And I'm like, but will you invite your male subordinates? He's like, absolutely. And I knew that that was the beginning of a really big problem, this caution between the sexes, you know, because I think the people we're talking about when we're talking about me to a small percentage of males, who interfere with women, and every single woman on this planet knows who they are, but they're not the majority of males in work. And the majority of males in the workforce shouldn't feel anxious about being in the presence, especially by themselves with a female. And I think that actually, me too quickly went from one of the greatest things to happen to one of the potentially most toxic things, and I've been concerned about it ever since. And I haven't seen any reason to change that opinion. What do you think? On one hand, I believe it had to happen. Because it was, I mean, it's just so wrong, what all those guys have done, and the number of lives they ruined. So it had to happen. Those people, on one hand had to be able to say, if they felt it was good thing, although just in brackets, that also kept them in the experience, which is not a good thing keeps talking about it. But that's maybe a different conversation. So it had to happen in that sense. But my problem with it was that it was too much focusing on sex, under normal circumstances, a normal thing between a man and a woman or other genders. But now we're talking about maybe men and women, and it's not a subject people talk about. So basically, if you bring up this as the main thing for equality, and just having a better treatment for women, then of course, the man is going to say, Oh, God, I'm not going to invite any woman ever for a business trip and dinner, because what can happen, because it's safer. And, you know, we do most of us to play everything safer, because again, that's how we are made. So that was one of my problems. And then because it was about sex, it was also like, how can you you know, some countries, especially the legalistic ones, which is typically Anglo Saxon was starting from us, maybe Canada, UK, copies them, etc. And, like all the things men and women cannot do in the workplace. And now we're coming back to maybe the what we talked about at the beginning about equality communities, etc. I expect people to notice if I have a nice hairdo, I, I am not upset. In fact, I'm upset if you don't notice that I look nicer today than yesterday. So there's a cultural element to it as well. But I think actually, one of the good things in the equality then was that men could be masculine or not masculine, but probably had to be a bit masculine women still could be a bit more feminine if you want. And again, now we're not talking about sexual orientations. But other subjects. And, you know, gallantry had nothing to do with equality, just because, I mean, I remember I was working as an assistant with a partner in an auditing firm at the beginning of times, and there was this big German guy, and then I was that very same nice little Hungarian lady. And that at that time, the computers were huge. And you had to carry this big bags, and I gave it to him. And usually, I suppose the assistants role to like run after the partner with the bag hug gave it to him without any hesitation, because I said you're stronger. So here's the bag. And that didn't mean that I didn't have an equally good brain. So I don't know what I'm explaining myself right now. But basically, this this created some barriers that were present most most couples meet at work as well. So it's, yeah, so yes, it has to happen. I'm not sure all the positive impact. Yeah, yeah, I'm honoring each other for for who we are like the physical strength is a great one, right? I'm, I've got two teenage boys. They're being raised as gentleman. gallantry was a really interesting The experience for me because as a young Australian, if any guy door, I wanted to punch him in the face because I sorted and, and I was really not nice about it. And then when I, it turned up in the UK in 95, there was this guy who just insisted on on like walking outside of me, and then telling me the history of it. And I'm like, I'm like, That's just stupid. And he's like, Yeah, I don't care if you think it's stupid, it's important to me to treat you as a lady. And it was only then that I started to understand that it wasn't about treating me as less. It was actually it was actually honoring me. And I think, you know, we need to keep that that's a beautiful part of the chemistry between men and women. And exactly, and we've got to want to what's different about us? And, you know, and the physical strength is a part of that story. And so I think, you know, women have got to sort of get their minds about it, too. But we've got to find that path forward together. Right? That says my background was very helpful. Because I had no problem. I mean, that Italian guy, and then we can talk about serious subjects. But I remember the Italian guy in my course, who said, Oh, I can help you with your coat. I said, of course, you're a guy. And he was like, So Fred. And then opened the door for me. And it was like, especially in the year, because for me, it was like, yeah, why not play your part in our relationship? And it wasn't even you know, it wasn't like, boyfriend, girlfriend or anything like that. It just simply just, it's just respect for Right, yeah, yeah, that's any angry young women out there who hate men opening the doors for them, be open to it, because it's not, it's not about patronizing, you're condescending you. It is actually a form of respect. And I'm raising my boys to do it. And then I've told them, girls might hate you for doing this, but keep doing it anyway. You know, because I was one of the girls that hated it. I want them to push on regardless, because I think it's important. Well, then I think I think that is wonderful. Yes, yeah. All right. So we've been going for probably a while. So if we could come up with three things that we should be focusing on? What are the three most important things men and women should focus on to drive the change that we need as quickly as possible? Because the whole world needs this change to happen, right? And evolution for me feels so slow, like, it really does need to be a revolution. But how can we? How can we make the change as quickly as possible, I will repeat a little bit myself, I have to one, I would make it. So if I had the power. And I'm not talking about my dream, which I shared with you. And I may say, okay, but if I had my power, I would actually make obligatory, the subconscious bias program for everyone, and not the 90 minute session, but like, three, four or five sessions across the year, so that by the end of the fifth occasion, when people heard about it, at least they kind of get it. And these programs should be extremely practical. You know, what is your action point? I will always I always add end every program, however short or long? What will you do differently? So that's one that I think that would make the biggest difference. So men and women would be more aware, I have so much trust in the human beings that basically they would do the right thing, if they were aware what the consequences of the current biases are. I think men and women should talk more, as simple as that, we should just talk more about what we are, what we are like, how we feel. Talk about taboo subjects. In fact, actually, you know, that is important part of the conversation, especially in certain cultures talk about subjects like maternity, breastfeeding periods. Sometimes I am shocked. And again, maybe I'll, I'm Hungarian. So culture is very open. We love to talk. And we talk about pretty much everything, although not everybody with everybody, but we can discuss everything. But you know, sometimes I'm just surprised by men not even knowing what it means to breastfeed. Like, I had a lady in my leadership program from China, who actually came to Singapore. It was just a two day program. And she actually brought a baby because she was still breastfeeding. And one of her challenges she said was that my boss said, I don't need to go for long trips, but for like four or five day trips, and she said, But how can she not hear that know that I can't go for five days because I'm breastfeeding my baby. So these are all and countries like China, countries like India, Indonesia. So these subjects have to be talked about when I listen to that one of the big issues I see is self awareness. So you know people, male and female, they're not very aware of themselves some, you know, goes into this unconscious bias as well. Which jeez, actually do you see this subconscious bias training as opening up more that self awareness so that then because you know the majority of men that I've worked with husbands, you know, they've got children, they've got a wife. They know all about this. They know the reality of life. But do they really, but they don't bring it to work. It's like it's a it's like they can't connect the dots that you know the way you I mean, because one of the things I challenge I always Yeah, it was a challenge is we keep trying to stuff women into a work designed for men, where women do the majority of the unpaid labor. Right. And they still are. So they're doing all these unpaid labor at home and working. But we still have to work within the confines of of a work design that has been created. Yeah, with that support at home, and that support at home is still happening. It's a redesign of work, really? Oh, no, no, absolutely, absolutely has to be a very design of work. But you know, you said that most men live with wives students. So they know, I would question that. And I think, and I don't know whether I'm right or wrong, I have not. Actually I did look up a little bit of research about it. Because I think in that the pandemic has ended, because as you say, the abuse and the domestic violence, it's crazy. And that was also partially because of the pandemic. The good thing. So let's try to take the good part for now is that men had to actually see what it means to be a woman, because they had to stay at home. So they so when the women maybe had that period, and I'm sorry to bring that up, but I think it's so taboo in so many cultures. And when a man says, Oh, you're difficult, yeah, maybe you are, you can't talk now because of whatever I'm like I talking about. So that's why I'm saying we should talk about this very simple thing. But so now we're in the pandemic, man, actually, I think first time in their lives, they saw what it means to bring up children the first time in the life. Because, I mean, in the modern era, because maybe in agriculture, when you took the children with you, then maybe you also saw it. But basically, I really don't think men had an idea. Whether that's I don't know whether that helped a lot. But certainly for awareness raising, that was fantastic. Because now I would I would expect that men typically would not say, Oh, you just took care of the children the whole day. So what why are you tired? I don't think anybody in their right mind would say that anymore. Hi home. Because they had to see what it means. And even the balance of the wife also working from home. And both of them trying to share the responsibility of the children being at home. And taking on you know that that shared responsibility, I think that was a bit of a wake up call for a lot of guys. You know, I'm lucky with my husband, we've always been equal right from the word go. But I know that it's not, I'd like to see most of my friends operate that way. But and our husbands are not damask elated, because they choose to be 5050 part of the part of the night. So many things because moving typically earn less as well. So if you have to give up, and that was one of the things during the pandemic, on the good side, some more women could work because of the remote work opportunities. On the bad side, if you had to give up one job, it was typically the woman's because you earn less, and you are more likely to have part time or or, or the non made economies, and just on one, and then I stopped because there's so many things we could talk about. But we'll have to do more. But you know, just as long as we evaluate the country's output as GDP, and will not count, any social work, any care work as output, we will never have equality, we can't have equality because as soon as I take I go on maternity leave, I am not valued as a important part of society. And I quote, come back to work. And suddenly, I'm not I'm not I don't have such confidence that I can work. I've met so many women like it's it's crazy. I mean, the biggest thing you can do is to give birth to a child a new human being miracle. And you've done it, and then you go back to work. And you wonder whether you can still do it. So big. And I think it's partially because no value is put on what you doing. So anyway, that's an other big area which, which, which is part of this global systematic change, which we need if we ever want equality, and then education, of course, right, you know, right from the get go. As to number three. Exactly. Because you asked me three. I've got six down here. All right. But number three would be really having all these conversations everywhere from day one. Yeah, home school is not just about gender, but just simply being open and more accepting of people in general, then the world would become a better place. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you. So I've got for businesses and for all of us really focus on subconscious bias. And if if you really don't know what it is, obviously, if you work for an organization reach out to Suzanna, she's gonna she's got amazing programs. And it's true. And you know, you've been doing this for a long time and, and you've built a lot of credibility in this space. And as well as I love the cultural intelligence side of what you do as well, because I think that's another I mean, when we talk about equality, for me, it's also about diversity. You know, if you're sitting in a room, and everyone looks the same as you, regardless of where you come from, whether it's race, everyone's wearing a blue tie, whatever it is, right? If everyone looks the same, you've got a problem. So there's a subconscious bias, do some research, that real more open communication between the sexes, I think that's absolutely essential. And the, the taboo subjects, the taboo subjects actually create more challenges for women. So I thought that was good, I think we need to redesign work. Rather than trying to stuff women into an existing model, we need to actually and we've got an opportunity, we've just absolutely just changed the way we work for two years, surely, we can keep it going. A real big change, of attitude to the unpaid work, but also society's focusing on providing things like childcare for women, all these women, especially single mothers who could not put their children in childcare because of the pandemic. And they'd have to go out to work, you know, what have they got, they've got literally no choice. And then, of course, education, you know, equality as, as a topic, diversity, as a topic, is still seeing so much pushback. I mean, you can't even say the word gay in Florida, right? It's ridiculous. You know, just got to leave space for everyone to, as long as they're a good person doing no harm in society, why can't we just allow people to be who they are meant to be, and then we can heal? Because we've actually got a lot of healing to do. I think that's another big issue moving forward is, there's a lot of societal damage been done in the last couple of years. And we're, you know, with the climate emergency in the amount of anxiety I'm seeing building around that, because people are really coming to terms with it for the first time, I think we've got a lot of mental health issues coming up. So we've got to work out where we can be strong, to move forward. Right? You know, it's so interesting to me, because I've always been interested in the brain, how, how we think how we work, and I used to go to like, two different things. And one of them is like, spiritual conferences. Over the years, I was kind of listening to things. And I kept hearing that we need to raise the consciousness of the world. And what I've been doing now, subconscious programs. So it may sound a bit silly, and maybe I am idealist. And I hope I will be an idealist forever. But I really think that on a small level, at least, our consciousness is raising now. And for all the issues. equalities is one one of the main one, but as you said, the, of course, the environment, the climate, and there are so many issues, actually, to cover. But I really hope that we are a little bit getting more conscious about what we need to do. Because, you know, that's, that's the advantage of self awareness, and awareness of issues. Once you know, they're there. You can't claim it notice anymore, then it's a conscious choice not to do something, which of course, is not something which we should do, we should more people should go to spiritual events and conferences and listen to the podcasts because even though sometimes it can be a bit of overwhelming and they use different words, I think the fundamental messages in the mix, like raising consciousness is something my husband says Don't Don't, don't use that word, don't use it, because it will push people away. And I get I get what he's saying. Yeah, you know, every evolution in humanity is a raise of consciousness. So after World War Two, there was a big raising consciousness and, and it's always how it happens, usually, after big, big things happen in the world. But actually, it's more important than ever, now that we raise consciousness because it's about going to a higher level of acceptance. It's about pushing back on any that, you know, all of these things that have been put out there to divide us, and serving us. So anyone who's speaking in divisive language, is actually harming all of us. Whether you're you agree with what they say or not, if they standing in opposition to some thing or someone, they actually harm us all. And I don't even think half the people who are, you know, speaking up, I actually, you know, some of the politicians that are speaking up at the moment earlier or America, and it's, it's not benefiting anyone, none of us are winning. No, absolutely. Maybe I would like to at least one more thing I would like to say because, you know, as a dream I told you before, but I have another thought as well, as a three mindset to that. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he could try that experiment to have for 10 years only women in certain leadership positions, and then after 10 years, if it wouldn't work, let it be and whatever happens now, I know that that's not very easy to do. And then I had another thought and we can talk later about it and you can help me how to do this. Is what I'm trying to think. And that's why I actually want to talk to those guys. I mentioned before to those circles, focus groups, because if we can't put women into those positions, like leadership positions, how could we increase the decision making power of women? So how can we get like a woman consultant next to every single male CEO? Or what? In what format? If not in an official position? Could men C suite people say, Okay, I committed for the next year, every time there is an important decision, I am going to contact this person who is, but I need at least three women in the room. Right? Yeah, I like that, isn't it? Yeah. So anyways, it's just the very small spark at the moment, but because we can't put him in into all leadership positions, I don't think unfortunately. How can we increase immediately the decision making power? I think that could that could make hopefully a difference against wars and other things as well. Are we better diplomats? Typically, right? Yeah, create the creators of life. Those who give life are a little bit more have a little bit of a different attitude to ending life. So Exactly. Yeah. I mean, and we've seen it during the pandemic, the way women have handled it women leaders versus male leaders, we've seen all sorts of examples. So yeah, I mean, the idea Yeah, I love that as an idea. So let's, let's work out how we can make it exactly, exactly. But it needs at least three women have to be in a room? Because if it's only one, it's different. Yeah. You know, that's all right, my darling, we are going to talk again, I'm going to put your information in the in the show notes, remind me the name of your book, the culture key between Asia and the West. And that's an important topic, more than ever wrote. And just on that note, you know, we talked about biases, cultural biases, based on cultural differences are one of the big biases, which in my, actually, from what I see, most DNI exclude cultural differences. They don't talk to my so it's much more about the other areas, it's finally coming in. But I think there is less expertise perhaps in that. And maybe that's why people don't think too much about it. And the other thing is, build your empathy skills, right. So we've been in Asia for a long time. To me, the first job I had to do was to understand how to get the best out of people without forcing my way of that. This is how I would go about it. But I could say, you know, when I first got to Singapore, I could see that that wasn't working. So I was like, Alright, so how do I have to do it? What do I have to say? And do you know what to? Do you know what my biggest lesson was, like, people, people obviously faces an important thing, right? People feel needed to feel safe. And they needed to feel that I would take responsibility for failure, because I was encouraging them to take risks. And as long as they felt safe, and it took a while. But we built a great relationship. But it took a long time. I had to be patient, which isn't a quality I've got like you about Yeah, cultural awareness. And I think compassion and empathy is a is another skill that we need to be putting in the mix on that training. And then we will stop. But you know what they said that the subconscious bias program first, and then talking to the other gender, in this case, we said, for genders, we should say, but same for culture, because part of that subconscious bias program should be talking about cultural biases as well, because they are huge, they are huge if you don't manage them, and then again, talk to each other, and ask questions, how would you do it, but then as you said, it takes ages, it takes ages to build that trust. And if you patience is actually one of the capital letter words. In my book, if I have to name like five things, patience is probably the first one. In international life. If you are not patient, and open minded and respectful, and a few more, then you will not get the best out of the people and you will not be a truly great international leader. Awesome. Or metallic, thank you so much for joining me, I think we're going to do this again. And we're going to talk about lots more things. But I really appreciate it because I know this International Women's Day felt really different. It was good to see other women, women's voices speaking up saying show things like show me the data and why are we celebrating it, it never makes any difference. Everyone's just eating pink cupcakes. It's just women in the room. What's the point? You know, those sort of comments. The first person I wanted to talk to was you just say what can we do? How can we do this differently? You know, because we've got to solve this because to me, it's actually a part of the bigger challenge that we face as a global society and I'll do anything to contribute to trying to work out what it is that we all need to be doing. We need to talk much more than the full profile one podcast we talked more than enough, but I really value so much what you do. I think it's so amazing. And I still and actually should do things together because we are actually running inclusively that you follow the second one this year, and one of the subject is going to be how to put inclusion as part of the ESG. I mean, not how to put because in theory, it is part of ESG. But I based on my experience, it's not always so obvious, and it's not so easy. So, I think we are working towards exactly the same aims just slightly different elements. And it's difficult to say which one is more important than the other, probably the sustainability, because if the world ends, then it doesn't really matter whether we are inclusive or not. Yeah, it's about all of those different things, right. But if you are inclusive, there is more chance that you do. So. Yeah. All these all these keys or pieces of the pie that need to be working at the same, absolutely, to be successful in the long run. And that's, that's it, you know, we're not doing that then that we are we are patient, so therefore, we will do more. Thank you so much, Andrea, and I hope I can speak too much. No, no, you're awesome. We'll speak soon. All right. Thanks so much. Thanks.