Uncommon Courage

The Know Show – theme, who’s winning the information war?

March 18, 2022 Andrea T Edwards, Andrew Milroy, Samantha Gayfer, Joe Augustin Episode 52
Uncommon Courage
The Know Show – theme, who’s winning the information war?
Show Notes Transcript

Welcome to The Know Show. Another week of intense news around the world and this week, we are focusing on the information war, who’s winning? This is a critical part of the news cycle right now, and we are pleased to welcome back, Andrew Milroy, who is the founder of Veqtor8, a Cybersecurity advisory firm, and also a technology thought leader, keynote speaker, board member and adjunct lecturer. Samantha Gayfer is also back, filling in for Tim Wade while he’s away. 

When we move into our theme - who’s winning the information war? – we will go back before the war, look at what has been happening, which countries are leading this war, where the West has blind spots, the damage that is being done, as well as what we can do about it – as individuals to help others in our communities, as well as what to keep an eye out for in the countries we live in. It’s a huge and important topic, we’re excited to cover it. 

The Know Show is a Livestream held every Friday, where Andrea T Edwards, Tim Wade and Joe Augustin, with at least one special guest, review the news that’s getting everyone’s attention, as well as perhaps what requires our attention. We’ll talk about what it means to us, the world and we hope to inspire great conversations on the news that matters to all of us. 

The Know Show is based on Andrea T Edwards Weekend Reads, which are published every Saturday on andreatedwards.com, and covers the climate crisis, Covid 19, topical moments in the world, global politics, business, social issues and passion/humor/history. Join us. 

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To get in touch with me, all of my contact details are here https://linktr.ee/andreatedwards

My book Uncommon Courage, an invitation, is here https://mybook.to/UncommonCourage

My book 18 Steps to an All-Star LinkedIn Profile, is here https://mybook.to/18stepstoanallstar

Unknown:

Welcome to the no show. My name is Andrew Edwards. And together with Tim Wade usually I'm Joe Augustine and sitting in for Tim is someone we loved as half back from last week as well Samantha gave her. Hi guys. Good to have you back night. Happy to be here. Although you did get a bit dramatic, you did have a bit of a dramatic morning, Sam, tell us about that. I had a very dramatic morning. It's the third such dramatic morning I've had in my life. I had a young Muslim girl on a motorbike in front of me just absolutely wiped out and left most of her skin on the road. And because she was Muslim, she didn't want there was one other I stopped because she was right in front of my car. And another sort of lovely Malaysian guy stopped, but obviously a man so she didn't want him to touch her. And we always have first aid kit in the car. That's what living in Phuket taught us. Usually it's a Russian tourist that I'm mopping up on the side of the road. But so yeah, it she was in pretty rough shape. So I did whatever first aid I could and then waited, we ended up with about, I don't know, 20 police officers and some military and waiting for an ambulance and finally get her in an ambulance. And she's gonna she would there was no, there was no skin left on her knee. So she's gonna need a skin graft or something because there was nothing to even stitch up. So it's a it's good until I think about it and then I feel a bit nauseous. Wow, that was my soul. I did not go on. And you know, I was like, I'm gonna go on a hike. And I was gonna have all these things done this morning. And it didn't go that way. So, yeah, well, I was just about to complain. How was he feeling a bit achy this morning when I woke up and I think I'll just leave that behind. No. Big nothing. Yeah. It did make me feel very grateful about the fact that I have a car to drive. So Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, BattaBox especially not here. Yeah. Well, and but like her tires were pretty bald. And as in right, Malaysia has had like, darn near historic rain. And so it was wet. And she was riding on the actual road line. You know how the paint is a little sloppier than everything and just yard sale. And while we were stopped another guy wiped out to the left. I was like what is going? Well, very dramatic. Yeah, well, sure she's okay now. I'd say Well, I'm sure I guess he's sitting in the wings is going now. Wow. That's a story to try and top. Now that anyone comes on to try and pop the stories we tell. This is the the no show. It's a show that I've been thinking about what how to tell someone else about the show someone was brand new. And I thought by and said you know, it's about critical thinking it's about analyzing the the information, looking for ways to to find out more information as well and to help you be more in the know, literally right. And so every week, we try to bring on a guest as well to give us a different perspective on things. And we have a double dose this week. Of course, Samantha being our guest hosts with Tim, still on holiday with poor connectivity he claims in Australia. We have someone who's very much connected to the world. And he's going to talk today about something that is I wouldn't say controversial, but I think his view might be a bit of an eyebrow raiser. Could you please welcome to the no show. Andrew Milroy. Oh, back to the no show. Hi, guys. Great to be here again. And Jake, good to have ya. Yeah, so um, and he's a friend of many, many, many years. And we have had many evenings talking about just global politics, what's going on in the world. So he's always got a point of view, which I always enjoy. And so it's really good to have you back. It's great to be here. A lot going on in the world to discuss your, this sure is that you want to join to join and let everyone know who hasn't met you before. Give me just give me a bit of insight. Okay. Oh, yes. All right. So I live in Singapore. So I run a cybersecurity advisory business here that I've been running for a couple of years now. And, you know, just a lot of the work I do is quite eye opening, to say the very least, I spent, you know, the previous 20 to 25 years, most of my career in the technology analyst business and in different parts of the of the world, basically shadowing Andrea so we're in the United States at the same time in Australia at the same time in the UK at the same time and Singapore at the same time. So that that's my background. You know, I've got a couple of kids here and yeah, that's an intro to me and I do have a A lot of interest in, you know, in global politics, what's going on. And because I'm focusing professionally more on cybersecurity, it's very interesting to see the kind of, let's say convergence with a lot of what's going on in the political world. It's become a big political issue. Cybersecurity at the top have a lot of agendas. And I think one of the things we're going to discuss today is disinformation. And, and that kind of is a cybersecurity issue these days. And it's it's definitely worth discussing and keeping tabs on and being very transparent, open about, and I have some views. Yeah. And some of them are fairly, fairly, would seem fairly strong. But I don't think I'm the only one who held those those views, especially in the industry that I'm in. I think especially in the in the light of things happening right now, people are talking about how in the Ukraine and third world war and all that kind of stuff, and then talking about the weapons that we're used to thinking about normally for for big conflict like that. The next big weapon of mass destruction, but destruction of one is actually information, right? It's the it's the cyber aspect of things. They're talking about what happens if a world cyber war breaks out? Not Not that it hasn't already sort of been happening for a while, right. But that's the that's the big thing that we don't know. I mean, the interesting thing about this is, I think, in some of the material that Andrea shared, actually, that I was reading, and it's something that I've been reading about a lot is coming up more and more in the in the broad cybersecurity businesses. There's basically been an information war going on for 15 years or more, right? A lot of people are saying it, you know, it started very aggressively around 2005. And it's pretty one sided. And this sounds controversial when I say it, because totalitarian states can take a whole of state approach to information control. So let's just use Russia as an example, the media, the narrative, or the politicians come out with, you know, what are the propaganda message that spread internally and externally, his whole of State was you look at a democracy, a Western State, like say, the United States, there's, there's hundreds of different narratives coming out of that place. So the government conduct Information Operations, it's a small government department focusing on it, it can't force all the American companies to do it. And all the American media organizations to work together with it, I mean, happens to a degree but it's nothing like what goes on in totalitarian states, like like China and Russia. And I think what people are starting to realize is this has been going on for some time and the Western democracies have been brushing it under the carpet, basically trying to ignore what was going on and smack them in the wrist for when they were caught out, you know, these totalitarians will remain nameless for now. There's more than just those two north. I'll name them China, North Korea, and Russia are the main ones with around to an extent, right. And we all know that in the cybersecurity business, there are there are codes for their specific attacks. We know what those what those countries are up to, and what they've been up to for a long time. But I think people are starting to realize that these misinformation campaigns align with a lot of this cybersecurity activity as people haven't realized the impact. Now, I'll just give you a little anecdote. Are you giving away? Are you giving away all the jewels before we get into the section? Not really, I just want to set the scene, the misinformation. Give me a couple of minutes. So you know, I'm British, originally, and I voted in the in the referendum, that Brexit referendum in 2016. I lived overseas at the time. And to me and anybody who knew anything about the European Union. You know, the idea of Brexit just seemed like a fringe, you know, illogical idea. Right? It was it really was a fringe viewpoint. But what I found when I was using social media at that time, is if you went onto Facebook, there was more information about why Britain should leave the EU. So there was more there was so much disinformation going around, and social media at that time. And a lot of people in the UK didn't really know much about the EU didn't really care whether Britain was it was relevant to them whether Britain was in the EU or not in the EU, if you'd ask people in 2010 It might have been number 15 In the list of important political issues. It was a non issue to the ordinary person. But all of a sudden the ordinary person's go online, they've been asked to vote on something and the majority of the information they're getting is telling them that you know that all of a sudden you're going to get this mass immigration from Turkey you're going to have all these terrible things happen Britain will be part of a totalitarian state all is all this stuff. You know, France is going to do all these horrible things. Britain's gonna lose control. All this stuff, you know, coming out and people then parroting good previously didn't really have an opinion on the European Union. So that was a fantastic example of info information ops, designed to weaken the European Union. Now, it's becoming increasingly clear that that came out of Russia. And I don't think that's controversial to say that it's becoming increasingly clear. Similarly, we know in the presidential election, the United States that Russia missed that I'll use a disinformation because this the difference between this and version disinformation, but Russian disinformation made a difference. I mean, it's wrong. I mean, obviously, people can vote for whoever they want to. And in 2016, Donald Trump legitimately won that election, despite the fact he denies the legitimacy of 2020. But he legitimately won. But a lot of people in the social media feeds, we're getting all this information about Hillary's emails and all these terrible things that the Democrats are up to that we're just distracting them from, you know, other issues associated with with Donald Trump, for example. And it made a difference. The where did this come from? It came from Russia. So I think, and why is it in Russia's interest to have Donald Trump as leader of the United States, because Donald Trump will weaken the Western alliances and weaken NATO? Right? Why is it in his interest for Brexit to occur because it will weaken the European Union. So actually, he's been winning, he's been doing a very good job with these disinformation campaigns for some time, he probably needs to attack Ukraine. In the end, he was winning the information war and the West is really struggling. Or should I say they do the democratic world, not just the West, we have to throw place like South Korea and Japan, Australia and New Zealand into it is really, really struggling to respond to this disinformation, Onslaught in this region, we sit him China's at work, you know, or didn't they do a great job with COVID? You know, we should be more like China, etc, etc. I mean, we can talk about the narratives that are spreading around Southeast Asia that are coming from China, from China, we know they're coming from China, we can say it's not. And you know, and the interesting thing about all of these scenarios that you're talking about is, you know, you were targeted with the information for Brexit that I never saw, because I'm not British, and I'm not voting. The Republicans were targeted with the information that Democrats never saw. So it's the inconsistency of the message that people so when we're when we're in opposition to someone, we're in opposition to information that we don't even see don't even understand don't even know where people are coming from. And that's part of the big challenge. Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's part it's part of I mean, but if you'd searched around, if you've done if you've done searches, on site, Brexit, you'd have found probably more pro Brexit content appearing than then, you know, pro remain content. Yeah. So the initiative information initiative was on the Brexit side, and the same with the 2016 presidential election. But that's not to say that that that, you know, this information is completely false. What they typically do is they have something where there's a kernel of truth to it, and then just expand on it. It's like the narrative we had about it being NATO's fault, that, that Russia has invaded Ukraine. I don't know if anyone's heard this particular narrative that comes out from sources. It's not data as fought. But you could argue that maybe, you know, they could have been a bit there could have been a bit more thought put into its eastward expansion. But still, it wasn't NATO's fault. Yeah. So that I think is a perfect way to lay the table for a meal that's coming up ahead. And we now move to the information we have on hand, which I must admit, after all, this seems to be much more in depth, but let's talk about the news that we think we know. Yeah. All right. So let's start because we like to start with one piece of news that sort of really captures my attention. And I don't know if the rest of the world is aware of this story, but the Australian government got it wrong. Again, I will show you the evidence. What do you see? happiness, happiness, happiness, happiness, happiness, happiness and some testicles. And this is at a time you know when women's issues are center stage in Australia, right. So violence against women is at record highs. A woman is dying every week at the hands of a domestic partner. Women have been harassed and raped in the boys club other known otherwise known as the Australian Parnell parliament. And I I just can't help but wonder, you know, how does these government keep getting it so, so wrong? So the logo has been withdrawn? But seriously, I It's mind boggling to me. The Morison government, they just don't seem to be able to get anything right or understand or maybe, maybe the person who did it did it on purpose to undermine them? I don't know. But it was, yeah, just Australia is in a funny place these days. Well, I put it down. It happens. Really too close to something, you know, like, because I do I do a lot of I do a lot of stuff with trading. And you can sometimes get lost because you're getting really, really close and working on this. So I in view of the story, you got to tell I bought this t shirt, which I thought was a beautiful t shirt to have I just issue the design right now like this, right? So you have a look at that. You can see that it's a nice, it's an astronaut, you know, he's got the playing a satin planet, or whatever it is, right? And I thought, Okay, this would be great to wear online, except that online, and then it comes up to here. And it looks a little weird, is all I'm saying. So I think sometimes just being a bit too close to stuff, you lose the you lose the broader view. So famously, people like, like, like Steve Jobs, was working on a design for the Apple campus, right. And it was all kind of set to go and he showed it to his son and he saw a penis as well. Right. So that's one of those things that that happened. Having the heat, I think it was the Houston Astros mascot got taken to task he's like some green furry thing. And he was taking a picture giving a thumbs up and the angle of the shot just look like a giant green furry penis on this mascot and and like his whole PR team put it it was out until they realize like, why is this picture trending? quite high. And then they went back and all the comments underneath. They were like, Whoa, took it down. Yeah, it does. If you Google logos gone wrong. There are some exceptional examples, but that definitely and that should be on the list, Andrea? Oh, sorry, I'm a bit itchy, itchy throat this wiki fan family finally, after two years, came down with COVID. So yeah, a bit of a bit of an itchy throat. Everyone's fine, though. So I think the vaccines obviously do the job. So but if I have to mute to cough, let me that's why I'm doing it. Alright. So UK. Were nearly a month in. How are you guys feeling? Are you drinking more alcohol? Some days, I find like, days are fine. And then there's days where it just feels like the balance tips just too far. And then those days we have we don't usually drink when the kids are awake. And then every once in a while there's a bottle of wine at dinner, because the conversation is thick. Yeah. I'm just putting up Clinton's pm Scott Dixon balls. That's an Australian perspective. Yeah, I kind of feel like I'm floating through the world. This, you know, this last few weeks just sort of just trying to. Yeah, just, it's just so crazy, where we are as a global society with the issues that we've got to face. And we're going to talk about a lot of them, but I just feel like I'm floating. And sometimes the temptation to just take it all away, you know, it's pretty high. And I can imagine that, you know, I know at the beginning of the pandemic alcohol consumption was very, very heavy. I can imagine a lot of people have going back to that, because it's just like, it's too big. You know, what we did what we're going through, then American Association of psychologist or psychiatrist, just produced a report on March 12. And it is frightening. And it's something like 89% of Americans are deeply, deeply worried about a nuclear war. Like the percentages are off the charts. Everything is over 80% in terms of fear about the economy, fear about the climate fear about Ukraine like it's and and the associated behaviors that come along with coping mechanisms that aren't healthy. And it's just creates this gigantic mess. This needs to be slowly untangled. And even if you're not approaching it from a healthy place. That job is even more difficult. Yeah, yeah. And here in Singapore, I don't think a lot of the people are that sensitized to the potential extreme danger of what's going on in Europe. I think they see it as quite a distant thing. A lot of them Joe, not all but a lot of the people I speak to, but, but for me personally, it's very because I'm old enough to remember when I was at school in the, in the early, mid 80s, there was a very high low, I was in the north of England and there was a lot of tension around the potential for a nuclear war breaking out at any time, we had three minute warnings that the local council would test out, they'd set off the siren, you know, because we were telling you to have three minutes to to respond if we detected a missile, nuclear missile coming in. We were sent leaflets and our 14 at the time, you know, all houses called Protect and survive telling us what to do in the event of a nuclear attack, there was a bunker for us to go to outside of school. Lots of European countries had only allowed houses to be built with nuclear shelters in them. So we were you know, all the 1415 years old, what would you do in the event of a warning? I don't know view is the same in Australia. But it was it was top of mind that we could we could be annihilated at any moment. To be honest, it was it was quite an unpleasant background thought and a lot of the, the music at the time reflected it. Instead of you remember, Frankie Goes to Hollywood to try it and stuff like this. But yeah, so the the music and the British music certainly reflected at the time because it was deemed to be, you know, an imminent threat. And I remember, you know, feeling a real sense of relief in the late 80s and early 90s, when that threat just went and yeah, like, I definitely present. And now I get that horrible feeling. I used to have them because, yeah, right, using the threat of a nuclear war as a way of deterring any military response to what he's doing. Yeah, I think you guys definitely had a different sort of, I mean, Australia, was so far away. But a lot of people know, people are saying, if you want to, if you want to go go for some sort of self assurance, just go and talk to a Gen X, because we were all raised in the time of the Cold War and nuclear war. My parents. My parents remember the Cuba crisis, right? So they remember the the early 60s and the tension that there was a sense that there could be global annihilation at any moment. And we have the same again, 20 years later in the early, kind of mid 80s. But on top of it, there was so much military activity, we were close to most towns in the UK, or close to some military base or another. It's very militarized. There was a Greenham Common protest, because there were US missiles there as well, obviously, as you know, domestic weapons and overhead when you know, where I lived in even in high school, you'd have these low flying tornadoes all the time. Right, which was, why there's so many of them today, you know, what's going on? It's yeah, it was pretty good. We got to be aware of the potential impacts on our children, you know, because they're dealing with some pretty complicated stuff. But one of the things that I've, I think we're all in agreement, right, the best way to get to come through this crisis, the fastest way, is basically all of the Russian people stand up and protest and, and get rid of Putin and his cronies, right? You only need 5% of the population to be mobilized to create that change. We're seeing people doing it within them arrested. And there's been some really interesting happenings this week. So I just wanted to go through a couple of them. So first of all, Solinsky is showing his sublime social media skills. And a he's TV show where he plays the President has now been released on Netflix. And he is just a master of understanding that if he can keep the story front of mind for the world, which I think a lot of other countries could learn from that, you know, a lot of countries that aren't getting the attention like Yemen. Now, there's a really interesting piece on Yemen this week. You know, we that's that's the way to do it. But the main message is he's offering Russian troops the chance that if they surrender, they'll be taken care of, they'll be treated with dignity. They're also being given phone so they can call home to their families and Russia to tell them what's really going on. So he's using that really well. Yesterday, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and I was a teenage bodybuilder so and he was always one of my, one of my people. And I know he's done a lot wrong in over the years, but he's message to the Roman people has been lauded as a success message, you know, because a lot of people get that wrong. But I think, you know, especially when the Trump era, Arne has really mastered the burn. We also saw the Russian TV employee go on a protest with a sign behind the TV reporter saying they're lying to you, you know, great risk to herself. There's a piece in the BBC with an interview with her I haven't had a chance to read it yet. I recommend it but one of the more quirky protests, I don't know if you guys saw the Ozzy man piece I shared. Did you have a look at that one? So basically, this is economist an expert on stock market strategies he's named Alexander Whitman have and basically he's just hopeful that it'll be able to play Santa once a year now because the whole stock market is basically died. He wrote he toasted with a drink and said this Stock Market. You were close to us. You were interesting. Rest in peace Dear Comrade, and the person who's interviewing who was obviously on state TV, she's her eyes are wide open, she can't believe what she's she just can't believe what she's hearing. So that's that's a really good one to keep an eye out for. And then of course, the prima ballerina Olga Smirnova of the Bolshoi Ballet. And if you understand the global cultural importance of the Bolshoi, she has left and gone to Holland, as well as the main male lead who's who's Brazilian, but they've gone to the Dutch National Ballet, as well as other figures in the Royal Ballet movement. So there's lots of people doing lots of things. And this is this is this is where my hope is right. The other thing that happened this week was Instagram was banned in Russia on the 14th of March, there's been a lot of people being unkind to the Russian influences who've been in tears, they're going to lose their audience that they're so sad. But the reality is, when you take away the air that young people breathe, there's a really good chance that they're going to revolt. And the final thing is virtual private networks, or VPNs had been downloaded and record numbers in Russia, which is important, because it means that people can continue to have access to, to international information. So there's a lot of interesting stuff going on around there. Did you guys notice any of that stuff? Well, I noticed that they were quite strategic, or at least strangely kind to give notice for the the blocking of Instagram as in like, you know, we're going to be closing off Instagram, but you have two days to download your stuff. That was a that was quite different. Yeah. But yeah, I know exactly what you mean, in terms of the the youngsters and I thought about this in terms of the British. And the bombing, you remember when the Blitz that the era of the Blitz in the UK, which was supposed to demoralize the British. And I think I think what Russia is doing by cutting off these, the access to channels like this is sort of like bombing the youth. And you're right about the reaction that will come from that they'll figure other ways to get on and do stuff. So you know, things like discord or telegram or other you know, when combined with VPN, and all that it's gonna, it's gonna, it's going to get to the point where it's going to rise up somewhere else, right, the pressures there anyway. And there's a need for some sort of conversation, even if it's, even if it's just tick tock and having to have a laugh at the expense of the appropriate victims, I suppose. You know, they, they they'll find a way. So yeah, you're definitely encouraging, encouraging a demographic that is used to spending half its life and half its energy in a certain way to figure out how to use that energy elsewhere. And I would imagine, in some ways that Instagram would have been a better way to distract them than to actually, you know, I think it would be just, I don't think they want to distract them. I think they want to use it as more fodder for why you should be angry at the West, the West has taken away your Instagram, we had to shut it down because it was being used as a tool against Russia. So now you have a bunch of really angry youth, the question is going to be who do they end up angry at? Yeah. So I think I think you have to be careful not to underestimate a popular Putin was and still is in Russia, and be how the how the narrative that he's putting forward for his justification for what he's doing, how strongly that resonates with not all Russians, but the majority Russians, the majority. So I don't know, I don't know if it's the majority. I mean, for the younger people, they disconnected from a world they're part of the world, you know, and there's a whole generation that's so different to their, to their parents generation. So there's another demographic split, the older people tend to believe it, whereas the younger people don't. You know, I'm sure there are a lot of people who believe that the young people who believe that the US election was stolen from Donald Trump as well, right. It's, so it's not too difficult. If you think about managing to get that message of that narrative across to a significant chunk of the young population in the United States. Just think, the power that the Russian government has got to get and the narrative it wants to get across to its young people as well as its older people. So you're right to say, like, it's the West that's attacking you by taking these things from you and stopping you from that's how they'll spin it. That's the spin on it. They will say look, the West is threatening your future what we're doing is we're protecting Russia from this NATO stroke, Western aggression and supporting these so called Nazis, in, which resonates because of the world world War Two history which young people are very aware of World War Two in people's DNA, what went on and are in people's thinking and culture? What went on in World War Two in Russia, then then most other parts of Europe, right, because it was just such a devastating impact that what went on in Ukraine and World War Two is still part of the sake. I think you're connecting back to a time when propaganda was much more successful, just because people didn't have as much access to information. But I think if I think Putin's made a mistake in it, I don't think he understands the the young population in his own country. I don't think he does. I don't think he understands the connections that people make in the world. And you know, like our generation and younger, right, I don't, I don't think older people get it. And you know, you see it in the US, you see it in the UK. And, you know, I don't want politicians working out how to control social media, because they don't understand social media. They don't use it. It's not an extension of them. So they don't do it themselves. They get a young, they get a young person to do it on their behalf. Yeah, yeah, there are social, meet young social media experts in Russia, to say, alright, we want you to get this kind of messaging across. So I'm on social media. And all the tools we have available today make it much easier to propagandize than it was in the past when we had fewer sources of information much easier. Because there was I think it's easier, but I don't think the audience is as stupid. Let me just give you my little anecdote by the number of people. I hope they're not. Yeah, the number of people I know that are radicalized smart people, you know, some of them as well, Andrea, by the junk that they've been reading online, and I just send them the fact checkers, I say, Look, this is you know, so it's just so much stuff, and a lot of the fake NAT roll, whatever you want to call it, the narrative. As I mentioned, I'm getting his stuff about why the West is to blame for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So they're even managing to get the narrative not just strongly across locally in Russia, but across the globe, they've got a sizable community of thinking people young and old, in the West, think that Russia was provoked and has justification for invading Ukraine. And you here on the right of the American politics, every day, there's something just about actually on the left as well. Right on the fringes. Yeah. But and that's the point. It's on the fringes like I don't think, like, I think this is a, I think this is an awakening moment for the world, you know, that, you know, we can look around and see how much I mean, we should keep it to the information was section, but we've all been duped, right? And people like us with we've been going, Hey, guys, it's stopped. It's not true. It stopped. And there's people saying that right? And people are divisions in families, people, families falling apart, because one person believes this one person believes that. And I mean, it's been crazy watching what's been going on, because it's just such an obvious divide and conquer. And now here it is, it's out there for all to see, this is what really happened. So I suppose, are we going to continue being stupid, or people who I think real, the real challenge or the real opportunities, this I think, if you talk about the different markets, right? I think, in the West, maybe we leave Russia out of it. There was a, there was an institution or there was the establishment that was being rebelled or contrast that against. And so it's easier to tell the alternative story and go like, it's not really like, it's not really like that. Because what Russia is facing I think is a different thing is that the there is an establishment there, it is an old way of thinking it is a it is a way of doing it. If you talk about if you talk about Russia propaganda in Russia, it's not like they don't know it. It's one of those things that they they they kind of know, that's the way state communication works as well. So if you talk about potential in terms of the tide and where it's coming from, I think Russia has a boulder to push uphill, will they be successful with it? I mean, they could, but they're, they're having to push a boulder uphill, versus where you're saying the establishment and what they've been doing all this time has been this, you know, so I, I tend to go with the idea that because human beings are polar, and if things had been a certain way, a certain time, in a certain direction all the time. They want to go in a different direction. Sometimes, not sometimes actually. Most times they do is they just the way we are the markets work the same way as well. You always go this way, this way, this way, this way, and then they go like and then we want to go that way. So I think I think Russia is poised in that way and just if they if they if they keep pushing this and keep talking about Russia is infinitely good as no problems Whatever it is, they're setting themselves up for a real correction in the market. That's what happens as well that the market gets overbought. And it's going to come right back as well. So what I, what I see in Russia, if they're successful to push this further and further up, is that they're setting themselves up for a real, push back and pull back and it will collapse really, really quickly. So if it hasn't already begun to happen, and I think the younger the I think the problem that is, is the, the, there's a whole bunch of people who don't know exactly what's happening, there's a whole bunch of people who haven't decided, who are hearing both sides of it, and just are left in a state of confusion and therefore inaction, you know, I'm not going to do anything because I don't know what's real anymore. And that, and that's a kind of a dangerous space. So what's going to happen, I think, is that there's going to be a greater push towards, I hope, a more pacifist perspective. And it will, I think, come from the families of soldiers. I think it's gonna be, it's gonna be it's gonna come from there. And I think, you know, it's easy to look at Solinsky as the hero in the story, just because the guy happens to be the other guy happens to be a lot worse. I think both sides are complicit in, in a kind of, brinksmanship that they're actually you know, it's it's, it's a it's a punch followed by a counter punch it, there is a fight going on, because of all that counter punching going on. But hearing I've been hearing stories of ideas from from from a friend of mine, and if you get punched first, are you complicit for defending yourself? Yeah, I would be very careful about implying ads like Trump's there's good people on both sides. You know, like, just, I would just be careful. Yeah. Doing is, yeah. I mean, he's defending his country, right. As in, like, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm seeing someone at my borders, and this is what you want to do, and you're coming at me, and you're gonna do all these different things. I have strategic choices that I can make with that. And there is a there's a thing where, you know, I know, it's always about justification, we can we can justify everything. But the way, the way that's gonna happen is it's always going to reply and then get bigger and bigger and bigger, and which is why I think they've been good in controlling themselves by not taking a full on attack back into Russia, because that would give license for an even bigger sort of action on their part. But so the alternative idea that I've heard, which I which I, I've been thinking quite hard about is like, what if one of the sued for peace in this way? What if they gave food in the things that he wants? You know, for now, in certain ways, it will take some time to get there. And then you let time do its thing? Right. I mean, time hasn't helped them. It hasn't helped them since 2014. It isn't like, time has not been on Ukraine side. Right. They just keep losing chunks of their country. Yeah. So I don't I don't know. I think I think there's no, I want to believe there's a diplomatic way out of this subject, apparently. Apparently, they're getting closer. But let's move on to the next topic, which is religion. And we I mentioned that article in passing just a few weeks ago, because I found that one of the really interesting possible perspectives of why this war is happening, and it's certainly not getting the attention, but two articles this week. One in CNN in Putin, his vision for the world and medieval narrative resurfaces, and this is really interesting, right? So the top ranking priests in the Russian Orthodox Church is called patriarch hero. And he's basically he's reason that he's supporting the invasion is because of gay pride parades. Did you have a chance to read that? Anyway, okay. So basically, what Karela is saying is the conflict is an extension of a fundamental culture clash between the wider Russian world and Western liberal values, exemplified by expressions of gay pride. And to me, this is another thing, it's another case of an old white man, saying this is what's acceptable in society, because we know in Russia, there are people there as well, right? So it's not that all Russians agree with this way of thinking, but they also believe that it's playing into Putin's larger spiritual vision of a return to a Russian Empire in which the Orthodox religion plays a central and pivotal role. And so, you know, this is creating huge ramifications around the world. So the Russian Russian Orthodox Church in Amsterdam has severed ties, and there's a number of priests and churches who are abandoning Moscow. Then there's another piece in Reuters, Ukraine invasion splits, Orthodox Church ice isolates Russian patriarch. So basically he's girolles, full throated blessing for the invasion is splintered the worldwide church and unleashed an internal rebellion that experts say is unprecedented. There's that word again. So basically, in Russia, 300 priests have condemned the invasion outside of Russia. They're saying Kuru has simply discredited the church. And the reason Ukraine is important. So in 2019, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was established, which most people don't know. And obviously, the Russian Orthodox Church wants a back, because in the presenting area, so the 10th century, Ukraine is seen as the cradle of the rush civilization. So it's very important, historically. And basically, what they're saying is there is now a complete and utter upheaval in the world of orthodoxy. So, like, we're talking about the young people and how they're going to respond. This is another this is another really important piece, the spiritual sort of heart of a country's with its religion, right. And we're seeing that splint and fracture within the country in and around the world. So I think that's going to be a massive part of the story too, as well as a massive part of potentially stopping what, what this war is doing. I think it's what it's all about. So it's religious, conservative nationalism, which is what Putin ism stands for. And it's directly opposed to liberal democracy, right. So it says liberal democracies, that the scary thing is there are people in the right and the right wing in the United States that share those views, exactly the same views. There are communities in within liberal democracies that share those precise views. And often those folks sympathize with the position that, that Putin takes. And in a, you know, modern liberal democracies, basically, everybody's got a voice, you know, whatever your, your form of sexual expression is, you have a voice, and you have a vote, and politician or whoever it is, and the people have to pay attention to you because you have that that tiny amount of power, but still, you have that bit of power. In these totalitarian countries, you don't have that power. The those minorities don't have no power whatsoever people with with non typical forms of sexual expression have got very little power, they're in a minority and the totalitarian regime, you know, paints those people, as there was done have done throughout history as being somehow a threat to the to the traditional, you know, virility of the nation, the associated religion, and it goes on elsewhere as well. So there is an attack on liberal democracy. Putin is at the vanguard over, I'm afraid, I don't want to name other countries, but a very big one here in Asia as well, is up to exactly the same thing with a very similar narrative. And we're getting the same narrative coming out of right wing political groups in not I shouldn't generalize, because there are a lot on the right, that don't have this narrative, but some in the right share this narrative in liberal democracies themselves. So it's a big threat. And yes, that's what it's all about, you know, Putin wants to the world to be reached, not just put in other people who share his views won't want want the world to be shaped around conservative religious nationalist agenda, where you cast it into spheres of influence for you know, a few large countries that are running or running similar principles, heterosexual, and they got a new world order and this threat from liberal democracy, that the pushing for a new world order they're doing, they accuse our opponents of doing exactly what they're doing. Or they just want to take us back, you know, to, are we ever going to get to a point where humanity is capable of accepting all forms of humanity, because all forms of humanity exists within societies. And that's what part of being human is. And we we continuously want to stop natural expression. I just, I don't know, I think, I think yeah, exactly. And I think they need victims, and who do you go for you go for minorities that traditionally conservative people have felt uncomfortable about. Right. So it could be a religious minority and ethnic minority of people with different forms of sexual expression. Yeah. You don't want to be gay, don't be gay, but let people be gay. They want to be gay. Like, it's just like, I just don't understand why, you know, even saying why in Florida now? Well, exactly. Don't say Iraq, but like, you know, just let people people be who they are, as long as they're not harming anyone. Why can't we create societies around that then I think the emphasis in the world is moving towards there. And I think that's frightening the people who want to control it and bring it back and this kiryl guy sounds like he's, he's a classic sort of, you know, old thinking to the religious right. And in the United States, they say even worse than that, right? You know, I have a way more extremely than, than what the Russian Orthodox Church is coming out with much more extreme, although the Chechens are pretty extreme. Yes. The Chechens have a very strong view on that. Yes, you're right. You are correct. But I don't want to label it is certain elements within parts of the what is defined as the political right. I don't want to lose I know lots of libertarians on the right. And lots of people on the right who do not share those views. I know a lot of people have gay people in the right as well. Right. So to tarnish the right wing too much and just these people with this conservative nationalist, you know, worldview tend to sit somewhere in the political right. Yeah. Alright, exam, did you want to add anything to the religious one? Because I know you were a bit like spun out by it. Yeah, I mean, I just, I just thought it was, it was the first time I had read about it. Um, and, honestly, one of the reasons I'm an atheist, because, I mean, if there's an amazing book that maybe will or won't offend you, I don't know called The God Delusion. And I will never forget this quote, that is from the book where it said, religion is the only force that can take naturally good and innocent people, and make them do horrendous things, believing they're doing it for the right reason. Right. And it was talking about the crusades, and what have you and like, and I mean, you're like, I lived in the Middle East for 14 years. I you know, I see it in in otherwise incredibly rational people who two drinks in are talking about the Zionists and, and like, I just, it's not peace. Peace never comes from religion. Peace never comes from religion. And we need peace. Yeah, I get that it has a place for people. And I and I totally respect and appreciate that. And if it's where you need to be to be at peace with yourself, all the power to you. But when it starts being used to leverage one party against another, then it's a political party. It's not religious anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I think about for me, attribution is something which I'm always concerned about, right. Because you know, when when when there's a room, if you enter a room, and there's a large room, and there's a gorilla loose, we tend to notice the gorilla. So in terms of the in terms of when we say religion does this religion does that it's actually people wielding religion as a tool that do it. Because in terms of most of the religions, most of the religions that I'm aware of the objective is not is not conflict, the objective is not to be, you know, separate. But there is there is a built into it. Sometimes this idea that everybody has to be the same, you know, there's a, there's a problem with human nature, which is that it's in conflict with what is nature, my nature thrives in diversity, but human nature doesn't want it, you know, we, we, we, we get a lot of benefit from diversity, we get all these different, incredible unthought of ideas that come up from diversity, but what we yearn as, as a creature is for the sameness we tend to gather with those that we find the same as ourselves. And it's only when we start getting into the more intellectual side of things that you begin to let go of the obvious signs of difference. And then you look for the ways that were similar. So this, this, this picture that we have right now, isn't, isn't the kind of picture that would automatically come up when someone says, putt for people who are kind of the same together. But if you look at our brains and our way we think when you go like, Oh, the kind of the same, so we actually we actually represent that just that we've, we've left behind the color of our skin and our origins, we just think about more than what we're thinking about. And that brings us together as well. So much like it would be hard for us to have amongst us in this group, you know, ultra right wing, religious, anti gay person, you know, in this conversation, you know, it's hard, it's actually against human nature to do to work on it. And I think that the challenge that the human race actually has is to rise above human nature. It has to say, this is worth it. And therefore, we will do it this way. Understand rise above rise above or just accept it. Well, not if we are Human Nature, we are going to do this we're going to go into factions, we're going to disagree with people, we're going to let our sense of insult driver, someone, someone, someone, someone attacks us, we have to hit back, because that's the right thing to do. Right? So, and again, I'm not I'm not going back there and saying, three different things that could have should be done differently. But I'm just thinking, we have that nature in us. It's, it's really, if you want to one of the one of the most interesting things I saw in terms of how how you could you could defuse a fight, which I thought it just couldn't be diffused was a video I saw once or someone going and just use it. Are you are you looking at my girl? Right? Which is kind of thing? Like it's very human nature thing? Are you are you looking at me? Are you looking at me? So yeah, I'm looking at you, you look fantastic. And it changes that whole thing. It changes the whole polarity of what we're doing. And it's and it goes against the human nature, the human nature is to defend ourselves and say, no, no, no, it's okay, whatever, I'm sorry, whatever. That's a pushing away sort of thing. And that's human nature, but the anti human thing to do is to go in the opposite direction and rise above it. So I think we do have to rise above ourselves. And I think we'd be we had to do that in our personal growth. That's always one thing. But I think if if we can do it in larger groups, and I think this is a this is the kind of place where people can get this energy and this idea from this faith that it's possible to do that. We can we can arrive at a better place. I totally agree. I think and I think it has to be intentional. And I, I went back to say something Andrea might be shocked at but I have been listening to Joe Rogan. Because listen to him, right? Because I want to understand the other perspective. And good dammit, if he is not convincing. Like, he he is smart as a whip. He has people on who disagree with him, which gives you this sense that he is just curious and seeking truth and information like and, and I remember thinking before, like oh my god, like how could anybody listen to that? And did it and then I listened to it. And I was like, oh, no, this guy is excellent. So if we don't intentionally embrace and like this is where Facebook algorithms and YouTube algorithms kill you, right? Because all it does is feed you saying, you know, this supports your perspective. And so I'm just gonna keep feeding you information that lines up with what you think. And you have to go intentionally look for the opposite perspective. Because otherwise, you're in an echo chamber. And that doesn't do anyone any good. You don't learn anything. I think that's a really, really important part to make. I mean, last night, I watched a documentary about the American readout. And that is a part of North Idaho. Well, I guess in that kind of North Western United States, right, a load of survivalist conspiracy theorists, you know, religious fundamentalists have chose to set up a community to protect themselves from the threat to the Second Amendment, sort of the government, you know, taking over their lives and so on. And when you when you listen to them talking, they're smart people, though, they're not stupid people. They've got a you know, very, they're saying, Look, we just want to live our lives freely, without the government telling us what to do. And we believe in our right to carry these guns and deliver in this way, and they have this, what looks like a lovely, beautiful community that they that they that they live in, but they're all convinced that the election was stolen as well. They're all convinced that, you know, we're coming towards judgment, and so forth. But, but I think it really is important to hear that and I've got a load of WhatsApp groups, many of which have got, you know, what you might call, you know, conspiracy theorists who who veer towards that part of right wing thinking we were talking about the conspiracy theory, part of right wing thinking, and I'm constantly getting you know, rebutting these arguments about the Bio Labs found in Ukraine and how, you know, America is not working with Ukraine to develop chemical weapons and, you know, just having the people I'm debating, you know, having this online discussions, whether or not stupid people, so I think it's important to hear those arguments, and every now and again, I'm caught out, coming out with something that's clearly an assumption, and I've picked up some inaccuracy, a bit of a bit of false information happens on my site as well. And often what that saying is based on it's not based on non fat, it's just the making an inference, a wild inference based on you know, a kernel of truth. And it's, and quite often we do as well, right, we make a bunch of assumptions based on kernels of truth. So I think Important to, as you say, just to expose yourself to the Joe Rogan's of this world, but you know, the people you know, even even the Tucker Carlson's of this world, much as I find it unsavory that narrative, but but just here with that narrow narrative is and just make sure that you know what these people are saying. Or else you are exactly where they accuse you off, which is being an elitist. Yeah, exactly. It's really it's really important. So just want to keep keep things moving. So some other some other important news around what's been going on. So first of all, we saw the Prime Minister's of Poland, Slovenia, and Czech Republic catch a train into Ukraine to meet Solinsky, which is obviously a great risk to themselves, but a great show of unity. So I was, I was pleased to say that another pace, look out for the headline, Ukraine may force Middle East Eastern rivals to upgrade their toolkit. And so this is a really interesting aspect. I mean, there's so many aspects to this wall that I think, you know, if you're just focusing on what's going on in the country, that basically, the Middle East have been, you know, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar, Turkey, around Israel, they've been all hedging their bets on diversifying relationships with the three big powers, and that's China, the US and Russia, right. And no matter what happens with the outcome of these war, basically, we're now in a two tier war to two power players China in the in the US. But it's potentially going to open up a door to a Cold War style, kind of interrelation International Relations sort of based on you're either with us or against us mentality. So this is, this is kind of interesting to see what the Middle East is doing and how they're playing this really good like, in my weekend rates, I've got a, I've got a section called deeper reading now under the Ukraine section. And I really encourage the growing fear of a wider war between Russia and the West. Putin has already deployed a chemical weapon in Salisbury. So and there's more. Another good news this week is we saw oil prices falling, which is of course good, because high oil prices are bad, not not not just for the pocket because for stability, and 400 companies have now withdrawn from Russia, but there's many more still staying. So they're the sort of other ones and then debt for Russia. So if you were paying attention this week, Russia on Wednesday had its first big day when it had to pay some some debt that was significant. And they threatened to pay that debt in rubles. Anyway, yesterday, I saw Russia kicks default drama into the future. So they paid it with US dollars. And we will no not be in that situation until May when the next one comes up. But this is important. Because if they don't pay, the whole global economy could sort of fall fall down around it. So that's another big one. Any any of those ones jump out, or other ones jump out at you guys? Yeah, I mean, the UAE story for me, because I spent 14 years living there. And I actually have played basketball without use of use of fellow TV, who is now the US investor. He, we all went to the same gym in Abu Dhabi when he was younger. And so were we. And it's so interesting to see somebody who you literally played basketball with. Now, in this light on the world stage, because it comes back to our conversation before about like, I know, this is a good human being. And now he's in a very precarious position. Because not everybody knows you have al dhafra in Abu Dhabi, which is an American airbase with 5000 military personnel. I mean, the UAE is the closest ally that America has in the Middle East. So if there is an imbalancing of that situation, it's, it may be a tiny, tiny, tiny little country, but it is a very strategic one. And that article made me really nervous. Because if we end up with China, Russia, the Middle East, then we really do you have east versus West. Yeah. Yeah, the UAE has been known to make mistakes in the past with its with its alignment that's in the world. So but now we're not Russia's out of the picture. Now. It's China and America. Right? So I mean, they're not and the obvious thing that we all need to be thinking about this, how do we all just come together and stop this division? And this because it's not serving us and it's not giving us? You know, how do we address the bigger issues that are facing the world which are impacting every single country on Earth? So I've been to China? Yeah, I think it's confusing people. Just because I mean, you've seen relationships with Israel actually come to fruition, which nobody thought was possible. So on one cheek, you have this democratic ish, you know, advancing progressing. And then on the other side, you have this? Well, you know, maybe we want to get in bed with with helping. I mean the the Russian ties to the UAE are very deep. Anyone who's ever lived there knows, I mean, we actually had to change the restaurant and one of our hotels to a Russian restaurant because 87% of our residents were Russian. Like, it's it's interesting. Yeah, the whole China's China angle. I mean, there's a big story this week, which you might not think is linked, but the Saudis are considering using Yuan, for China oil sales. And this is this is economic shift that's happening around the world where basically the dollar is not going to be the central currency that drives the global economy. And the fallout from this back in America and worldwide, so all countries are now having to look at, you know, using different currencies. And it's not out of disloyalty to the US, they just have to hedge their bets. Because if they don't, they could be a huge risk. But regardless, but the current crisis will potentially count 1% of global growth this year, it's going to take a toll on the global economy. And the IMF has basically said it will fundamentally alter global economic political order. But China won't use the digital one to bail out Russia. So from a economic perspective and currency perspective, China's going to get stronger through this, but it's pretty messy. Guys, jive. Are you changing how you trade? Well, I'm not really because for me, what I do with trading is all about movements. I'm just going to see where the elephants are running, and I'm going to follow them. Right. But I think the situation is about, again, where things are poised. Right. So before all this already China was poised. and Russia, you know, in their look for the for the convenient area that the happy idiots, I think they have become the happy idiot in terms of world finance, right? They're the ones who did think did the thing and did that favor for for for China. So I always think in terms of that somebody who will benefit from something, that doesn't mean that they will do the actual pushing. But sometimes they're not going to hold you back if you're going to do something that it's beneficial to them. Right. So I think I think China, China was very strategic and all this and they can they can see where their thing was, where their with their position was and what they could they could do with it. So they're playing the game now as well, right? I mean, they they've been approached to give Russia weapons. And that's gonna be that's a choice. Again, they know what they do. That's gonna make a difference in the future here, but I don't think they'll I don't think they'll they'll take that bullet. But I'll take that bait, but I think, yeah, they certainly were poised. And they saw the friend go out and drink a couple beers too much. And they said, Oh, go ahead. It's it looks like a good fight. Yeah, I think economically, they moving so slowly, for so long, to get to get their economy. So not the economy, their currency around the world. And I think what we're seeing now, it's just a bit of a speed up. And then they're not they're not a speed. They're slow. They're ponderous. They, you know, they take their time they made the right decisions. And I think we're now seeing a speed. It's accelerating more. Yeah, accelerating some trends that have already been been in place. Right. But I think it's interesting, in Chinese social media that clearly, you know, the Russian narratives widely supported. So if you look at if you look at the narratives coming out of China, and even from the Chinese politicians mouths, that clearly, you know, the labor what they're saying is supportive of Russia. So even over the bat, even the conspiracy theories, like the biolabs, when the foreign minister popped up, I think it was the foreign minister, but a senior politician popped up and said, Oh, America's got to explain what has been doing with these biolabs and Ukraine. So they've been basically then the Russian and Chinese narratives have been converging, which is like a super powerful propaganda machine. I mean, our friends Lansky and the kind of organic social media response in the West has been, you know, pretty strong in its resistance to that narrative, but, but you know, it's gonna keep going. And it's strategic, that the narrative that's coming out of Russia and China and everything that weakens Western alliances in the United States is obviously in the interests of China right now. Yeah. Yeah. And also the watching very carefully, they're wondering if, if if, you know, because, you know, obviously, they've been making threats about Taiwan. So they're thinking Okay, so what's the response to Ukraine being attacked. And, you know, if we do the same thing and saber rattling, then say, look, we'll destroy the world without nuclear weapons, if you intervene. Will they be left alone just to take Taiwan? I'm sure that's what they're thinking. Yeah. So that's a good argument for why Why have me? And that's me, I do look for both sides a bit. Right. So I do agree for the reasons like that, that what what Ukraine is doing in terms of resisting is important, because it's the message. It's the message about how we're going to behave in this neighborhood when the next thing happens. And I think that that part of it, it's definitely very important. Yeah, just Yeah, I think that the Ukrainian resistance is actually sort of messed up the entire plans, right, because it wasn't expected. And then the Russian troops reaction to it, you know, hearing some of the Russian talk about the war, and you know, the stories that they're sharing, you know, it's all on all these unexpected bits and pieces, and we're hearing different messages coming out of China. But the final bit before we go into the information more and really sort of dig into that is last week, we were talking about, you know, a 50% reduction in crop yields, because Russia is one of the biggest producers of this thing called potash. And that goes into fertilizers all around the world. So there's another one in the South Asia monitor and Antonio Guterres, who's obviously the Secretary General of the United Nations, has warned that a sword of Damocles hangs over the global economy and developing countries are most at risk. And this is a really, really important read because food, fuel and fertilizer prices are skyrocketing. We've actually gone out this in the last week and stocked up on things like tins of tomatoes. Because if we can get rice in Thailand, and we got some tomatoes, we've got basil in the garden, at least we can have a meal, because this is big, this is going to get big right? Especially it doesn't stop quickly. Supply chains are being disrupted, disrupted, and the costs and delays of transportation of imported goods, I don't know if you know the shipping price has doubled in the last couple of weeks. So even even when you want to go and buy your tins of tomato from Italy, the chances are the prices are going to double. And what this all does is create political instability around the world. And that that's why it's a big threat. So the war has already gone beyond the Ukraine. So when people don't think it has, I just find it really quite amazing. But in before the Ukraine, the developing countries, we're talking about Sri Lanka last week, we're really struggling to come out of the pandemic, because they've got record inflation, rising interest rates, they've got debt burdens. And the ability, the ability to respond by being able to get access to loans has changed, because there's there's an increased cost in financing. So add to that the breadbasket of the world has been bombed. And Russia and Ukraine represent more than half of the world's supply of sunflower oil. So if you use sunflower oil, and you haven't gone out and stocked up, you're missing out and 30% of the world's weight. This is going to this is this is the problem. This is the we are at war worldwide. And it's in its start, it's going to start here in the poorest countries on earth, not only are the people going to suffer, but the potential for insurrections and you know, revolutions is going to rise. So it's a pretty that's why I've been floating around trying to just try to imagine, you know, what, what does this new world look like? Because it's not ever going to be back to what it was. Thoughts? Well, that's our show, folks. Yeah, I think this is okay for me. And the way we tend to be about things that when things look, the worst is when we are probably going to make a mega mega turn the other way because people we really can't see something else happening or there's no other way. And that usually drives people to a point where suddenly it snaps. It's not a certain behavior, there's a there's a bunch of stuff, there's a bunch of behavior which is held back by fear and uncertainty. And then what happens is desperation gets close enough to the point where you go like, Screw it, this fear that this this this is worst is worse for me to not do anything, and then you do something. So I think we were kind of on that on that edge then and I guess if you thought about interaction, it's it's the kind of thing that is gonna happen. I mean, it's gonna it's, you know, I was thinking about, I was thinking about Russia thinking about how can this stop like someone was saying, how, how does how does put in, climb down from this? He's, he's climbed itself into a situation where there is no, there is no way back out of that, and I and I know that of all the people on the screen, I'm gonna guess that I'm the most likely to suggest assassination. But I have another I have I have another I'm reformed, I, I'm, I'm thinking what's gonna happen and I hope what's gonna happen is this, that money will talk. And I think what could happen, and this is my idea is that the old guys would get together and go like, okay, oh boy is gone a little bit too far. And I think if we all got together, we could buy him an island and put him there. You know, I think I can't see a good way for this to be in Siberia. I mean, well, I think he's gonna have a good life. Unfortunately, the this is the thing about monkey brain, right monkey brain is we want to see him punished, and therefore he has to, he has to live a bad life. But if you if you make a choice, and you say, Listen, I'm just gonna try to exile you. You have a good night here. No reason to complain at all, but just stay out of our lives. That's that's, that's pretty okay. Right. I mean, it's it's the kind of like, the the global equivalent, though. Let's block put in on Facebook. Right. Yeah. I mean, just instantly jump in. I think a more likely outcome is that Putin claims victory. So the Lansky says, Okay, we're not going to apply to join NATO again, he's already said that basically, not that NATO ever accepted Ukraine, they rejected them multiple times. But also look, they keep rejecting as Okay, Russia, if that's what you want. He'll make a statement saying that he won't do that. And then they'll say, okay, Russia can continue controlling these regions of Ukraine that it's already been controlling, including the Crimea, right? So something like that. And then he comes out, Putin comes out and goes, Look, victory I've been, that's a fighter, I've protected the, you know, the Russian speakers, and I've eliminated the threat. I think there's a strong possibility that, that that'll happen, and that he claims victory. But the shocking thing about that is all set a terrible precedent that, hey, if you if you do go and invade countries, you can, you can get these kinds of, you know, concessions easily. But having said that, he could probably have got those concessions without a full blown invasion, like the one that he's engaged on. I don't know, I reckon if you want to, if we want to build a united world, Putin, and all of these crannies, needs to be taken out in whatever way shape or form that looks like. And we need to, you know, find the right people to Russia needs to find the right people in its own country to lead it into a new era, which is, you know, you know, I think it's a possibility and it might sound like naive or, you know, but like, the reality is if we don't get this stuff, right, right, if we don't move forward, we what's the point? Let's Like, seriously, let's just go party and get drunk until the end? Well, because I really like the catastrophes. I think they want to use the phrase they're using in America, the off ramp are very off ramp, some with some face saving monies. And he's got some concessions, right, he's already and then he's still getting old. And he loses a bit of credibility with the people around them. So his power becomes somewhat diminished. So I think we need these power needs to be completely diluted completely in the same space about what a likely outcome is. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. Honestly, Joe's point earlier right about assassination mean, there been, I'm sure I saw a piece on a Russian oligarch who said a million dollars if someone takes you out. And it was like, the day after his yacht was seized or something. I mean, it's his own people don't see him going anywhere, gracefully. Um, it's, it's tough sending John Wick you know, but you do wonder like it? I mean, how much does one man get to cost the world? What is what are his freedoms and his liberties and his power worth? And how does he get to wield that over so many other innocent people? I just, and I, and I mean, I'm I and I don't believe in an eye for an eye. I'm the opposite of that. And I and I think that, you know, I support rehabilitation and all of those things, but I do think they're, he's not even. He's not even a human anymore. You know, like, he's, he's an icon. He's a living martyr. He has created this chamber of power that makes him unpenetrated And so impenetrable, sorry. And so how do you undo that? I don't think it's by just taking little bits away. It's got to be total, you have to take it all. But he's not the first one if you just look at if we just look at the past Mauer did some pretty atrocious things, but he didn't. He just slowly was made less and less relevant till he died Pol Pot was made less and less relevant. I mean, obviously the enemies overthrew him, but he was still there, and he still have quite a lot of power in the country. Stalin was still there, and he still retained a lot of power in the country until he died. Right? So there are a few examples of you can say, I mean, I don't want to do the hit like comparison. It's overdone. But if you just look at 20th century, totalitarian states and dictators, a lot of them, a lot of them just become less relevant and they fade out that they don't die. Some do not you know what, we'll hang around right for a while. Alright, just a couple couple more. Couple of interesting stories. So basically, the Russians have agreed to give an American astronaut a ride to Earth in spite of the tensions and you just kind of think that what was that like that moment, you know, when they're all sitting up there from from, you know, these opposing countries and that happened, but there's a funny, funny story story that made me smile. Musk has changed his name to a loner, because he's having an argument with Chechen warlord called Ramzan Kadyrov. V is one of Putin's allies, I suppose. Anyway, I don't know if you guys saw it. But Musk threatened Putin, or challenge Putin to single combat? And I don't know, I don't know, I sort of see stuff like that. And I'm like, Oh, God, I mean, it's so pathetic. Yeah, but anyway, so there's a bit of fun going on around that. But there's lots of really, really, really, really great reading. One of the articles I shared in The Guardian was was it in? Was it inevitable, a short history of Russia's war on Ukraine. And that goes back? Well before 2014 said, some really, really good deep reads, If you want to sort of just get your head around the history and the complexity, because I think it's worth understanding the history and the complexity. But let's move on to Andy and who's winning the information war. So obviously, we had a bit of an introduction on that. I shared Carol Cadwallader was interview this week, she did it, she did an amazing TED Talk, which, which was talking about the Cambridge analytic of Facebook scandal, and I really recommend everyone watch it. But yeah, the video is set the scene to basically reinforce the point right about the power of social media for the, you know, the spreading of misinformation for certain outcomes. And we know that, you know, there are certain parts of the world, as I mentioned earlier, where you can take a whole of state approach to your propaganda internally within your country. And then you you can use the social media channels to spread that narrative, externally, or any other narrative that you want to spread that's in the interests of some objective you're trying to achieve. And I think, you know, she talked about the impact of Cambridge Analytica, and obviously, the Russians in, in Brexit, and similarly, Cambridge analytical were not involved in the, in the president, you know, that the 2016 presidential election, but, you know, you know, obviously, the Muller report shows that, you know, Russia was directly involved in that. So. So you've got these these countries that are using information tools as a way of achieving political objectives instead of war very aggressively, because it's so called asymmetric war, it's a gray zone. And they're able to do that. Now, let me just flick into our region, some slightly less well known examples. I spoke to some Indonesian colleagues, recently, some folks I used to work with about a year ago, and I asked him about the, you know, the situation with vaccinations in Indonesia, and they're going, Oh, it's not a problem, you know, because I've been reading stuff about a shortage of vaccines. And they were saying no, actually, you know, in Jakarta, just very easy to get vaccinated. Not a problem, but people just don't want to get vaccinated. And I said, why not? He said, because they don't trust the vaccines. And I said, Really? Negotiate? People just do not trust the vaccines. And then I asked them a few more questions. I said to him, I said, Well, what about you guys? Nigga said, oh, yeah, you know, we get vaccinated and I said, What did you use Pfizer Madonna? AstraZeneca is another that we we only we know we only wanted to use the Chinese ones. We we don't trust the Western ones I thought word Earth is and these are quite again, quite smart people. Where are they getting that from? Now? I mean, there's more and more research been done but into, you know, the Chinese information ops in this part of the world and also just information opts in places where you know, that aren't English speaking. So Bahasa Indonesia and you know, Facebook's not on top of that, not on top of Vietnamese. It's not on top of the languages in this region. But China, we know has got, you know, operatives in country working to make sure that the narrative that suits Chinese political interests has been has been spread around, certainly this region, but you know, in other parts of the world as and as and when necessary. So it's been going on for a while. It's nothing new. But I think a lot of the Ukraine stuff is bringing it to a head because people are starting to realize just how severe what Putin has been done and is doing is and how he's been doing it for a long time. Obviously, there was, you know, Crimea, Georgia before that, and these information campaigns are kind of a substitute for a war. But as I said, I'm surprised that they felt so itchy that they needed to get into kinetic warfare. They've been so successful with information ops, it's kind of surprising, but it's going on. And there's a worry, you talk to companies. I mean, I've spoken to a few companies, they say, Look, we're worried about our insiders being radicalized. We're worried about insiders. You know, we're a critical infrastructure, right? We're worried that, you know, in the United States that some of our, you know, employees might view us as the enemy within the part of the deep state or whatever it might be. And it's up to them. They've got to take out operations against against us, right. So there's a serious worry about people being radicalized by by disinformation misinformation online, as well as this disinformation been used to achieve political aims and which, which they've been very successful in doing all the stuff about the vaccines. I mean, how incredibly discrediting pharming Pfizer we know has been this subject, you know, there's been attack not in the Pfizer papers, that guy worked for Pfizer saying how it's all bogus, and mRNA is experimental gene therapy, etc, etc. This this, these disinformation campaigns were phenomenally successful. And it's a standard narrative, and we know where it's coming from. Yeah, but the people I've I tell other people to go, yeah, it's all Russia and China, they turn around and they think they accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist. Because they these people continually that I'm talking about that I interact with, in order to hear their points of view more and more, the narratives they often come up with, to me, it's just direct Russian or Chinese propaganda. But it's very hard for me to say that to them. It sounds very patronizing, because they'll then say, Oh, you're just parroting Western propaganda. Yeah, right? Send them to a fact checking site. Or I'll say, look, it's not a conspiracy theory. It's available on, you know, the UK Government or the US government's website, what they've been doing with the so called labs in Ukraine, for example, it's out there in the open, it's not being hidden. It's not a conspiracy. Did you have a chance to read the article that Sam shared Russia as a hurricane China as climate change, different ways of information warfare, because that was, I found that a really interesting perspective, because it was more about China's information warfare is about domestic agenda. And then the the Chinese diaspora around the world. So that was, that's the real sort of message that came through in the article, whereas Russia has all been about just say, can destroy and divide around the world. It's a quite different. Would you agree that from what you've seen, Andy? No. I think there's a there's a perception that China's just focused on its own internal interests, and it's harmless, it doesn't seek to interfere in other countries activities. But I think that's manifestly false. Given given what we've given the nine dash line, for example, the South China Sea, given the aggression towards the countries in the region, that data, engaging fish in their own territorial waters, for example, given what we hear from you know, what we believe a disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asian countries, given, given the narrative that Mandarin language social media here, even in Singapore is pushing out the hostility towards Westerners and Western liberal democracies and so on. I think it's, you know, it's the same pattern. I think what the Chinese and Russian narratives converge, and become super powerful. So if I don't think I'm gonna, I don't think I don't think it's the same. The same thing, really. So when you when you when, when we look around the world, when we look around, when we look around the world, like we're all paying attention, we're all we're all doing the work, we're going harder, we're listening to the alternative opinions, what would you advise people to do? You know, so how do you? I mean, when we need to, I mean, to me, it's, we're at a point where we know now, so to me, it's a case of challenge everything you think, you know, you know, when? Why do you believe what you believe? Are you a victim of war? The conspiracy theorists have done a great job in discrediting so called mainstream media. The first thing I would say Say his mainstream media at least has some oversight. Right? Yeah, the stuff you're reading from, you know, Joe Rogan, or whatever it is, or some YouTube channel from some person you like that has no oversight, you have no idea what their agenda is, where they're coming from mainstream media, you can find out who owns it, you can find out what its editorial line is, you can find that so I would say look, just listen to a range of mainstream media outlets because they have different angles, you know, when this listen to both Fox News and CNN, for example, if you're in the United States, listen to both both of the narratives, listen to the government ones that tend to be drier and more to the point or whatever it is, and and repeat what is being told to them by the government. So so you can listen to a range of mainstream narratives is really what I'd what I'd say. But online, there are a whole load of fact checking sources that you can you can use, a lot of people will try and discredit the fact checking sources, but there's a there's a bunch of them that you can use there. Also, you know, if you see a story that from your searches or that appears in your your your social media feeds, seek to validate it seek to get a little bit of people don't often have it fits into their existing view of the world. They just look for something to you know, it's confirmation bias, so to speak. Right, so. So I would say don't be so cynical about mainstream media, just make sure your multiple mainstream media sources because that there is some oversight with mainstream media is that is that is the bit of advice that I would given. They're winning the information more by discrediting mainstream media and you're thinking well in, in place of what were you suggesting people get the information from? Yeah. You're usually just some some YouTube channel. So you weren't, you weren't a million dollars, you know, selling vitamins off the back of your message. Right? So, so understanding, understanding how those conspiracy theorists, how did they get rewarded, and you know, Google advertising is obviously going to be huge, the language they use, like, watch this before they take it down, as always a sign of bullshit. Because you know, if it's a truth, you don't need to say that. But that, to me is one of the biggest, but I'm how they get rewarded for what they do. So how they make their money. Anyone who says this is the truth or whatever? Or says, You're being misled, you know, that BS, right? Yeah, no, you're a sheep, you're being misled. You need to know this is the truth, etc, etc. There are various signs of it. But basically, you know, look at see what mainstream media is saying, go back to it. Don't don't allow them to discredit mainstream media. I mean, something like the Guardian gets discredited heavily all the time. I'm not saying everything in The Guardian is the right angle or the right narrative, but it's got some perspectives that are worth looking at. And if you're British, make sure you mix that with the telegraph. And some of the, you know, the sudden people or even or even to be or even the some of the Daily Mail, right, just see whether what kind of narrative they're coming out with in the UK, you get very colorful media around such in the same in a lot of Western countries, right. So just give yourself a, you know, a decent sample Don't, don't just stick to one source, is what I have, have some kind of media that has editorial control and some oversight. And the other stuff is just conjecture and opinion and stuff that you're digging up and Facebook and YouTube channels and so on. Like Russell Brand, a lot of people are now listening to them. If you've heard him, he's on one, you know, and suddenly like, I don't enjoy him. Yeah. But he's got all the conspiracy theories now. I think it's important to, you know, like, what you're saying, Andrew is, is the reason that you need both sides is because they're all inherently biased, right? You have, it doesn't matter. No, there's no such thing as an unbiased story. Because the person who's writing it naturally will have some bias, they want an outcome, they want you to feel a way when you read it. And so the only way to counter that is to read the opposing opinion, and then try to make your own judgment. So the more you do that, the better you get at it, right. But I mean, I'm sitting here, seeing a Democratic agenda in this and a Republican agenda. If you can identify it, then you can piece out from it where the facts are, and make your own decision. I mean, there are some things that are just facts, right. And then we talked about inferences that people take from those facts, right. And the facts are usually pretty clear. And it's great to hear both interpretations of those facts. And then as you say, make your own decision and respect people who make a decision that might be different to yours, right? And then the, the unless it's something violent about but generally if their political view is very different to yours, but here in Singapore, it's interesting. I mean, I read the Singapore channel, I watched Channel NewsAsia. I read it online and the Straits Times, and I know that the government has a lot of enjoy, you're probably aware, this has a lot of control over it, but it's still, you know, you know, when you read it, some of that stuff is fact. And there's a, they don't they just choose what news to tell you, they don't just make up complete lies. And you know that, through your experience of reading that are correct me if I'm wrong, Joe, but they just select them in what news they choose to present. And I know that, but it's still a new source that is valid, in my view. So I keep my just another an example of what to do here. But here in Singapore, we are a bit short, but it's a small country, it's a bit short of information sources, but it's a, you know, it's only five, five and a half million, 6 million people, right. So small access to the whole world's information. I suppose one of the things I really hope that comes through from this time is that everyone who has been stuck in their corner, and and been a successful target of the defeated the division, so the war that has been raged on the west by Russia, right or No, by Putin, I hope that it just says to people, like people don't want to get out of their corner, they want to keep fighting, and they'll defend it. And you know, to the point where they won't speak to a member of their family, that's the thing, right? I just hope, people's go, okay, okay, okay, I need to, I need to come back into the center and start looking again. Because if I've been duped, then I don't want to be I want to fix that. And I hope that message starts to come through strongly because the divisions in our societies have become so bad. And so therefore, Putin succeeded, right. Yeah. I mean, it would be great. I mean, I remember just the political thinking, you know, in the past was often is my life better or worse with this government? And then, if your life is worse, you know, often it's usually just to do with the economy. That's what they used to say in the US. It's the economy, stupid, it depends on the performing the same in Britain, the economy is performing well, and you're the government, you'll get reelected. If the economy's having trouble, you're, you're likely to lose. And I wish it could go back and be as simple as that. If people but having said that, perhaps it shouldn't only be the economy that perhaps there should be more to it. But now, you know, people vote for the most crazy abstract reasons that have nothing to do with reality. They make their voting choices. Anybody read think, again? By Adam Grant? No? Okay. Put it on your list. It's amazing. The power of knowing what you don't know. And he wrote it in response to Trump era politics and to the division that you're talking about Andrea, where you have, you know, two members of family who just can't get past that, their differences. And he did. And he, they basically ran a bunch of different experiment. He's a organizational psychologist. They ran a bunch of different experiments, and there's one that I thought was absolutely fascinating. And he's talking about how we've all been taught about perspective taking, right so like, imagine how little Sally's gonna feel if you steal her toy. And you go, Okay, a little Sally is going to be sad. And then you know, Mom says, Okay, now get back the toy. Right. So this idea of that's, that's what we've been taught perspective taking is, his take on it is, it seems fractionally different, but his has a massively different result. And he took gun control as the example. And he took a pro pro like NRA kind of pro gun group of people. And he took an anti gun, you know, pro, whatever the opposite of the NRA is pro pro peace, whatever, group of people and he did a little thought experiment with them. And he walked the people who could never imagine allowing guns at all, through this story of imagining that you were born in the south. And imagine that you grew up in a family where you had three uncles, and they were all hunters. And you spent every special family holiday at your cottage in the woods. You hunted as a family. You ate it together as a meal afterwards. That's where you learned some of the most formative lessons of your life in your memory is seared this family bonding, very positive experience for you. And so when someone comes for your gun, you're resistant, not because you think somebody needs to walk into a school with a with a machine gun, but because you're protecting this experience that you had. Then he went to the pro gun side and asked them to imagine that they had been at Columbine, as as a student or a parent, and imagine then in this persona, as somebody who grew up in a different space in a different place, that you then ultimately are obviously going to be incredibly resistant to guns of any kind. And he didn't get them to agree. But he got them to come to the table for the first time ever, because what they could understand is, while I don't agree with you, I understand that your perspective doesn't make you a crazy person. It doesn't make you unreasonable, it doesn't make you unintelligent, it doesn't make you blind to you know, the right way that things could be, it just means you were you are have a set of circumstances that are different. And those circumstances have led for to you to hold these opinions. And doesn't mean that your intrinsic, intrinsically a bad human. You know? I mean, more people, how do I give you an example just for us that, I think absolutely speaks to exactly what you've just said. So Steve's in Australia on his very first business trip for more than two years. And he's not catching up with anyone, practically because he, he doesn't want to risk getting COVID and not being able to get on the plane to come home. That's his thing. He wants to be able to go home, right. And so we were in Asia, we wear masks. And so the government says we don't have to wear masks, everyone will wear masks. It's just what's going on here, right? And people outside of Asia don't understand that mindset. But in Australia, you know, 6070 80% of people aren't wearing masks. And what Steve's finding is, you know, he's at the airport in Melbourne going to Sydney, and half the people in the airport aren't wearing mouse, even though it's clearly signposted wear a mask, right? And they, they looking at him with contempt for wearing masks. And he's looking at them with anguish for not wearing a mask, because he just wants to come home. And he just wants to be able to control his environment a little bit, so that he can do that. And and I just sort of think about it, like, the contempt on their side, the anguish on his side. If we could all just see that. And just agree, right? What do we do? Right, we either don't wear and while we do wear him, but the half and half thing and, and the vitriol that comes with it. It's completely unnecessary, because we are both sitting in places of really negative horrible emotions. And that's what division is to me. And there's many, many examples, but this is just a really recent one for us. So Eddie, Oh, no. Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a great point. I've picked up on that as well. You know, I think I mentioned to you in November, I went to England. And it's at that time, it's involuntary, whether you're a mascot or and my mother was into the I was used to living in Singapore. So as soon as I stepped out of the house, I put a mask on. Yeah, because it's mandatory. As soon as you step outside your front door. And people were looking at you, why are you wearing a mask? You're walking down the street, because people just don't wear them outside. But I was in a very polite neighborhood. So if you went into the supermarket, yeah, you put your mask on. If you're on the bus, yeah, you put your mask on. But they were polite, but then you went into the inner cities of someone. Sure. Not many people observed that. But yes, I felt the same. I was super nervous about catching COVID Just in case I couldn't get back. And that's the big issue. So my wife now in Malaysia is trying to catch it to get it out of the way. So that's to stop her from traveling. We just kind of avoid that people are trying to catch it to get around the around the you know, the restrictions that are in place but but on a different topic. I think what you were saying science about the different communities. You know, I think you know, if you if you think about you know, there's a lot of them in the United States right and just the United States other parts but these, these Christian survivalists, right, these Christian conservative survivalists have always fascinated me, but if you look at the communities they live in, in the way it looks beautiful, they live in these beautiful places, and they're almost like hippies, you know, they grow there, they think the grid is gonna finish and the world might end so they grow their own food and have their own animals and stuff. And you think, you know, you know, what, a what an amazing and they're quite smart people, but I think, as you say, I think it's super important to to really understand the perspective of the side that you disagree with. And in the case of Ukraine, it's there are a lot of Russian people who do who do believe the the, the narrative that that is coming out from from Vladimir Putin. So I think it's important I'm not saying to agree with it, but just to understand what that narrative is, and in no way justifies in my personal view, but you know, what's gone on but I think it's just it's just it's just super important to get our heads around that the same with you know, gun control in the US is a very good one in the same in China, right. So, you know, I have quite strong views about the form of government in in China. but a lot of my Chinese friends who in Singapore will, you know, send me YouTube videos and the likes just explaining, you know how effective and good the Chinese Communist Party is when it comes to running the country. And, and I know, there's some very positive things that they have achieved and they have done in that country. And a lot of for that reason, a lot of the population that the majority if they did have an election would probably vote for president sheet. Because a lot of people think that he and the party have done grant and to be honest, objectively by a lot of measures they have. I think it's really super important. Just to understand I think that's yeah, that's a great point that is important to amplify. Yeah, well, I'm just to remember that like, we are our perspectives are, are created by circumstance. Yes, not always, by our choice. You know, I happen to be born in Canada, and raised liberal in a liberal community, and therefore I have those beliefs. But if you're raised in China, you're gonna have different beliefs doesn't make you lesser, or it's just different. Yeah. All right. So let's, let's clip it along. We haven't really been covering COVID In recent weeks, not because it's gone away. But apparently, according to the UN, it's a grave mistake to think it's over. But Hong Kong is going through a terrible, terrible time. And there was a there was a fee that there was a new variance on the loose, but actually, the high numbers are just because of very, very low vaccination rates, especially in the elders, and they got sinovac A long time ago. And it's just not. It's just not dealing with it. So the death rates high J, I know you were having a look at some of the data on that. Did you get a chance? Yeah, I did. One of the things that I've been hearing is, you know, I mean, well, anecdotally, people are saying, Oh, it's like Italy, it's all that man, that's terrible things happening the way it was in Italy. And the numbers aren't really quite as stark as all that because I, I, I was surprised, because I was ready to see that, you know, the similar kind of report, but they did have some very, very big days in terms of, I think they had a day when they had 50,000 new cases that that would get your attention. Right. And but in terms of in terms of deaths, let me I don't have to use anything, skip that number here that the, we assume that the number was, was really high, but it it did not compare at all to the Italian situation and what they did, or they suffered in Italy, it was a completely different thing. So yes, it's widespread in terms of numbers that are a huge, huge numbers, I was also looking at the testing that's happening in Hong Kong. So they also hit a peak of testing. So there's 200,000 tests, right? And that if you don't do 100,000 tests, and you you've got Omicron, sort of like in the community, you're gonna you're gonna pick up a lot of cases, that's the way that's gonna work as well. That's gonna test the whole community, right, that was part of the, but there was there was some graphs with deaths where it was showing, like, you know, compared to the rest of the so that the example is between New Zealand and, and Hong Kong, similar populations, who were also having a spike and the deaths in New Zealand, but tiny, but the deaths in Hong Kong, which is like these big breads sort of spikes on this on this data. And you know, they're basically saying it's because they're just not vaccinated, and it's mainly the elderly, obviously, who are dying. Well, that's the thing as well. So in terms of statistics, they are quite well vaccinated, but But you it may be a factor of the sign of vaccination. I mean, because if based on the numbers that that they came up with, with, let's say, Pfizer, and Madonna, they would have been far better off but the the numbers in terms of those who have received boosters was actually quite low. So they had that problem. The other thing about Omicron, which which a lot of people are missing, is that we we end up in our own echo chamber as well because we were adults, and we keep thinking of COVID as an adult disease. And it's not, especially when you look at Omicron Omicron is really something that is affecting the kids. So you talk about in Singapore, the largest population that is affected by COVID Right now, the kids that they're actually they're the largest cohort of people with the with the infections and in terms of pediatric ICU, they're busy they're they're actually handling cases. And the reason behind that again, as adults we sometimes miss the Miss Miss that is where we are had this narrative from the start that COVID didn't affect kids that much. And it was all that. And all that was true, up till delta that was true. And then Omicron came along, it became a different, different thing to consider. So the kids are actually affected by this, and they carrying it. So they become this big, where they didn't play a big part in spreading the disease before as well. They're also part of that. So they're becoming a conduit of the disease to people in places, which normally wouldn't have been touched by it, because you didn't even get that kind of exposure. So I think there are lots of where we're kind of like, assuming the old truths about it, when there are some new truths about in terms of how it's gonna get to your doorstep. I think what we're seeing in Asia is the multi generational homes, right? So those kids come home, and then aunt Granny, who's living there gets it. And that's, you know, everything is? Yeah, moving on, there's still incredibly low vaccination rates in many countries around the world, which means that, you know, the possibility of a whole new variant is still on the horizon is still being discussed. But now, it feels like the world's over it. We've moved on, but I don't think it's over us yet. Yeah. And why it's still a potential threat with younger people for that very reason, right? Because we just assumed vaccinations and we don't think, Oh, hang on, they haven't approved vaccinations for the very young yet. So you know, that that that really is wide open as far as that's concerned, and people have been very concerned about it. So even even if they've been approved for vaccinations, they've been slow to take those vaccinations because of because of them, which I mean, you know, I wouldn't say, I don't want to I never want to marginalize things and say, Oh, it's not a legitimate fear. You know, you can have a fear that's based, you can feel very real fear when the statistics say otherwise. You know, it's like, We know, for instance, a lot of things about COVID. From the science perspective, we can do a lot of things, but I have in my home I have, my wife was on chemo, and she's immuno immunosuppressed, or depressed. And there's some real concern, say like, well, what if I bring this home? I mean, statistically speaking, all is going to be fine. I should be able to go out and make meet friends and whatever, and all that. But what if what happens? And what happens? If you're the if you're the one, right? I mean, you know, if, if you step into a situation where you're like, oh, there's only a one in 1000 chance, right? Would you want to be exposing yourself to that, you know, so that there is a statistic of there is the the wisdom of the greater numbers, but there's always the fear of the of the single perspective. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so let's move environment, society. There's so many of you guys know me. But one of the reasons that, you know, this whole situation in Ukraine and the whole information more and everything that's going on, it's all really taking our eye off the only ball that it should be on, which is how do we come up and make make sure that our children don't suffer unbearable, unbearable future? So, you know, in China, the coal powered the coal powered industry, you know, in the economy as it's coming back, it has pushed carbon dioxide emissions to historic highs. There's an article a I found last night, which I haven't, I wasn't able to share with you guys. But it's Texas and other states want to punish fossil fuel divestment. So basically, countries like Blackrock who are saying, we're stepping away zero carbon world, they're now going back on their hands and knees into Texas saying, no, no, no, no, we really, we really do like the fossil fuel industry. Well, you know, we want to still be involved in this. So it's like, you know, you're either you're either getting the message that this is the right steps for the business to take, or you're not. And I mean, this is not something that's happened, you know, before because this is state getting involved in business, which is not supposed to do to hypocrites, but yeah, but basically, it's also potentially going to spread out to other states like West Virginia, Louisiana, and Oklahoma, and potentially into some other industries like forestry, agricultural livestock, so if you're doing a good the right thing by the environment, there's a chance that the state is just going to kick you out. Right. So but regardless of what they do, that the climate is still warming, and there's some other big, big, big news stories in the mix, and Sam, do you want to just quickly mention the Australian court overturning the teenagers? Because I know that made you go, I just can't even firstly, okay, so the story is there were there were a group of I think it was nine, seven or nine teenagers all under the age of 18. who successfully sued the government to create a law that forced the minister of environment to consider future repercussions on future generations when making decisions around that, in particular, it was a specific coal plant, a coal mine. And they were looking at whether or not they could expand it and what have you. The first mind blowing thing to me is that they needed to institute a law to force someone to consider what they're doing to children. That blows my mind in a developed nation. And then it was it went very quickly through Parliament, it was passed law, and it was just overturned. Because they basically said the Environment Minister can't be held accountable for all of the impacts of climate change. So why should they be compelled to consider future generations when granting licenses to coal mines? Yeah, it's like being in 1959. And you know, when I read the article, like, I totally get your frustration. I do think it looks like they were outmaneuvered in court. You know, and court is where a lot of the climate change. Drama is going to be happening in the next few years. But yeah, I mean, when you when you're looking to our children, eyes, right children's eyes, you kind of got to keep fighting. But like, yeah, here's some, here's some, here's some. Here's some highlights this week about what's going on in the world. Temperatures to spike 50 degrees above normal near North Pole, Amazon rainforest, reaching a tipping point faster than expected research shows UNESCO to visit Great Barrier Reef is Coral bleaching risk rises, Greenland's ice is melting from the bottom up and far faster than previously thought. The Arctic death spirals scientists warning, this is just this week. This is coverage just this week, this is what's going on in the news. We've got to wake up to these like all these businesses trying to keep their industries like I get that we have to be smart to work out how to divest from fossil fuels, because if we don't, there's a book on just can't reach it from where I'm standing. Some friends of mine wrote, which I think you know, it's about stewardship, stewardship of the fossil fuel industry. We do need solutions for it. It's not something we're going to shut off overnight. Or we can't even be thinking about that. But you know, the oil and oil and gas industry, they're out there trying to get more, more rights to draw more oil because of the war in Ukraine, right? We've got to start moving in the right direction. And we're not and if we don't do it this decade, it's all over. Suffering is ahead. And sufferings already. Yeah. Yeah. And the war in Ukraine is, is exacerbating everything because it's now now there is a legitimate reason to overturn things or to allow just another license or another platform or extract a little more, because we're kind of compensate. And once you once those are granted, they're not going to be undone again, right? It's not like, okay, you can put that platform there, but just for the war and Ukraine period, and then take it down. And we'll roll that back again, like once these permissions are granted. That's it, they're out there. Yeah, I can't say the benefit to Putin there in you. You know, like, it's just so obvious. I mean, ya know, from an oil and gas perspective and keeping the industry going, which is always, always what they want, right? It's a huge power of no benefit to humanity. It certainly not now, but what about what about you guys? Andy? Well, I mean, oil and gas is what drives the Russian economy. Right. So. So again, the the, the the agenda that Putin and people overseas who support them have is that is that, you know, the move to is that, you know, the climate change threat is exaggerated. The move to renewables itself uses more energy than, you know, more fossil fuels than using fossil fuels themselves and so on. But I think I mentioned this previously, Andrea, in an earlier session, I know it's not the answer. I know it's only partial. I know, I was quite aggressively countered when I sat at attrition so aggressively, pleasantly countered when I said it, but but I think there are moves, kind of market driven moves towards renewables, the cost of generating energy using renewables is progressively going down. If you you'll notice some of the view over the values of the renewables companies is going up and the stock exchanges and so forth, you know, other things that are happening that Eve These when I was in the UK, one thing I noticed was electric vehicles. In the two years since I've last been there have really taken off in very large number of electric vehicles. Yeah, we don't need it. We don't need that over there. We need that out in the Asia Pacific. So Europe's great right there. They're ahead. But 62% of the world's populations in Asia and they still drive by here, you can bet that people aren't doing it just because they're EVs. They do it because the cars are better, right? So I've been in a few I was in a Tesla, and it's just a much better drive. It's just like a paradigm shift. And you can even think of like, must not I don't want to give him too much credit. I agree with him on some things and not another's. He's like the Steve Jobs of the automotive industry. So, you know, he's got his own infrastructure around Tesla. And all the other electric cars are almost like the androids, right? There's lots and lots, they can use any kind of charging infrastructure. But the state wasn't even the status. But the what are perceived to be the best electric vehicles at the moment, are Tesla's on the app, like the iPhones of the you know, the electric vehicle world and they're very desirable, everybody wants one. So in Singapore, where you know, we have a fair share of people who are quite status oriented. I'm sure folks who've lived here are familiar with that. I've noticed just over the last few months, people that would formally have been driving you know, BMWs and Mercedes and, and so forth are now driving Tesla's but if you've noticed that joba casters are much more widespread here in Singapore, and I think they're going to knock out some of these prestige German brands. Because they've seen the prestige, you know, they're actually the brilliant vehicles of acceleration the silent you know, the great to be in I can see why people people would want one. But I think again, it's these people aren't trying to be that optically environmentally conscious, they're buying those electric vehicles because the simply better technologies cutter and they're going to take over and they look and they wouldn't even this part of the world sooner or later they'll take over and that is a good sign. I mean, there are you know, obviously side effects nothing's purpose obviously nothing's perfect obviously. You know, we have to mine a whole new set of raw materials for the whole electric vehicle revolution lithium nickel and so on. And that was great damage in their own right. And obviously energy is used in the production of them so yeah, so yeah, we often get but but there are promising sides this this Evie revolution is is moving much faster than I think a lot of people expected. And to his credit, I think Elon Musk has galvanized it by being the Steve Jobs of electric vehicles. Yeah, creating the ecosystem around his around his vehicles. That are great vehicles. They're just great. You know, to touch feel and be in Yeah, have you ever have you ever noticed Have you Have you guys noticed at some point Jos t shirt image actually does look like the thing that he was trying not he's not now cuz he's sitting up higher but yeah, the other shirt though. Anything else? Anything else in the news that was really catching your attention. Did you guys see the Noah? What's his name? Trevor Noah, Trevor Noah, speaking up against ei not Kanye. And he's harassment of Kim Kardashian and really sort of really saying you know, there can be two truths one she is famous and you don't necessarily like the other. The other issue is being pretty scarily and terrifyingly harassed by her ex husband. And if you know someone like Kim Kardashian can't do anything about it. what hope is there for the rest of women and then he talks about the fact that he's his mom was shot shot by his stepdad and it's pretty powerful story I I'm good on him for talking about it. Did you anything else you guys William William Hurd died. Ah, hardly anyone spoke about that. But he's a he's a an actor. I've always enjoyed any of those pieces come through that sort of made you go Oh, smile not smile so much this week. I'm just trying to think if there's been any any any news that's been joyful. I think there was a there was a piece and I can't remember where I saw it. But it was a whole series of pictures of people fleeing Ukraine with their pets. Yeah, that's been a really cool part of the story. Right and a cool part it's been a heartwarming part. That's right. Yeah, we're all at these checkpoints with cats stuffed in their jackets and carrying these giant dogs and I think it's just such a like it's just a such a relatable human moment, right of i have to go but I'm taking my pet with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I think another pieces I mean, it's just various bits of news but we do seem to be it does seem that the world is most To the world AdAway is emerging from the pandemic Touchwood. Well, it seems that it seems that we're moving away from it now, which, you know, there's more and more stories coming out about, you know, the data indicating that, you know, the severity of illness, especially with this new variant is, is seems to be low, the, you know, people are vaccinated seem to be not getting sick. And countries are, are relaxing, the restrictions are pretty rapid rate. And I also, I also saw Pfizer and Maderna, both applied for emergency permission for a fourth booster. Yes, yep. So the thing about the I've already had full? Well, really, the thing about the COVID situation is that I mean, people are thinking about this in terms of, you know, it's I haven't have no situation, right, because what you're saying is completely true about the societies that have had double vaccinations and maybe a booster. Yeah. But the male and the global view, as a kind of a utopian thing should be Yeah, forget boosters, let's get the first few are vaccinations in the countries that don't have them at all. Because Omicron, under the illusion is that overcrowding is not a serious, it's like going like, it's going into a wall with with full body armor, or like, you know, guns, bullets or not so, like, so. So that's that's the thing that I think the World Health Organization and people were looking at the global situation, you know, Joe, I'm not sure. I mean, again, I need evidence to find this out. But there's another problem. I think that goes beyond the, you know, the supply of vaccinations, and I picked it up a bit and some of the countries in this region is just the reluctance for people to take, you know, the vaccinate, and a lot of the Union campaign that seems to be going on, and certainly in Southeast Asia, probably in Africa and other poor communities here. There's a huge certainly, you know, certainly in Indonesia, and I know in Malaysia with them in I think they've gone over that, but there was early hesitancy among the Malay community in Malaysia. But if you look, if you look at the countries that have got access to vaccines, 70 to 96% of the people, the citizens of the country are taking, and then there was just a story this week in Indonesia, they're giving are cooking oil, if you get a vaccination, right, so they use, you know, in a time of desperation, this is this is going to really matter to in a country like Indonesia, but countries that have full access to vaccines, and could just give them out to their citizens. And I mean, you know, in the US, it's sort of 60 something percent, but the majority of countries there, well, I don't know, what's Singapore now. I mean, you know, the 90 96%, is, we have no real choice. But if we don't go back so that there's not much we can do, right, so, so but even in countries with even even in countries where it's not a choice, like, you know, in Australia, you have a choice, but it's still incredibly high. So I think people, but in any Western European country, or North America, it's not that high, it's about 70%. But you've had a lot more COVID in those countries. So when you've had a lot more COVID, you have a lot less fascination with the numbers. And like in the US about a third, this official numbers, about a third of the population actually has already had COVID. So yeah, you know, that's a that's a different kind of thing. So you have a lot of these areas, which are a bit more COVID naive, they're not so they did, I mean, you know, they haven't had the huge huge outbreaks, but they still have that disease there. And they talk about the vaccine hesitation not being so much necessarily just about choice, but it's also this the infrastructure and how easy it is to actually go out there and do that. So the the it's, it's a, it's an it's one thing to tell somebody to travel a day to go and get a vaccination, as opposed to for us to go down to our local CC and then we just queue up and we get our vaccination. So we we're not, we're not we're not necessarily just hesitant to the idea of the vaccination where we might be hesitant the cost of getting the vaccination in terms of what I have to do to get there and different things like that. So the distribution part is very important because we have it so easy here. It's very easy for us to think or you can just not want to get the vaccination because you fear the vaccination. It could be like it's it's a day in a way it's a day away to the next town or whatever whether doing it. Yeah. But because there are a lot of Ghanians to that. I still know a lot of people who are adamantly anti Vax. Again, educated people will say look, I'll just take it on board and I'll you know if it makes me sick, I expect I'll recover from it. I don't mind getting sick from it. I'll recover from it. throw out all the statistics back at you that they've dug up to say that it's you know, the 43 years old have any 43 year olds on backloaded diver is what they'll say, right now. But that is the kind of argument you might you might get back from from these folks. I think that there still is an issue in a lot of the world, especially where people have got traditional conservative views, about about about getting vaccinated, you do keep getting stories out of out of emerging economies about, you know, home communities being told by the religious or political leaders that it's an evil thing. Yeah. Some of them have a history that warrants that, you know, I mean, Africa, like people were, there's a lot of things to overcome there. Pakistan, they were shooting people, dad who were doing giving polio vaccines at one point when I say they, some people who, who were giving polio vaccines got shot dead, right? Because traditional conservative folks think Well, hey, that's a dangerous foreign thing that you're foisting on us. So yeah, I think just, just culturally, we know, we need to wrap it up. But, I mean, there's so much there's so so so much to this conversation, but I think, you know, when people have the the anti vaccine pro vaccine, like to me, I don't even care about that conversation, you don't want to get a vaccine, thank you the vaccine, if you want to get a vaccine, I hope you've got access to it. And that's what we're talking about the right to have access to the vaccines and, and a very large percentage of the population around the world don't have access to the vaccines, and they want to, and until the large percentage of the of the world that actually wants to get a vaccine has the vaccine, the whole world continues to be in threat of COVID. So to me, that's, you know, it's like the mask, mask a mask, I don't care where a mouse don't wear masks, I don't care. I live in a country where we all have to so we just do it, you know, so for me, it's like all these pointless arguments. The only thing that matters is everyone who wants it can get it. And right now until that happens, you know, anyway, sorry, I didn't want to get the final word, but it's just one of those. We've been talking about this particular topic for a long time, especially John. Yeah. Yeah. So let's sort of wrap it up. What are you watching? What are you distracted by? Well, I'm trying to I'm trying to do my trading as always, I'm helping my students achieve better results in their in their trading. So I've been very busy with that. I've been doing too many things at one time. So I've got a webinars that I'm producing, talking about COVID talking about healthy longevity, my behavioral sciences, and arts, all this other stuff we're talking about today, it's very, very close to me. I just thought, one idea that you can maybe walk away with is this thing about when you're trying to tell someone about an idea that's different from what they believe. And one thing you can think about is how how you would feel about someone trying to kill you. And it and it sounds like a great dramatic thing. But if you think about the self that you've created for yourself, it's based on the ideas that you have. And as I was thinking to say that your ideas aren't real, or aren't valid, in a sense, they're trying to kill you. So there's a there's a great desire to want to defend that self. So have a little bit of a, you know, I think have that perspective when you're going in to talk to someone about something that you believe in, because what you're really doing is you're asking them to die a little to themselves. And that is a huge thing to ask someone to do. Interesting. So I work it's been a busy work week. But also, desperately trying to get to Phuket, actually, in the next couple of weeks to see everybody that we didn't get to see when we left in the shroud of COVID lockdowns and the ride. But AirAsia just canceled our flights. So I suspect I will be spending tonight trying to figure out if we can still get there or not. Yeah, well, good fun. You're leaving, you're leaving from picket was a very, so you guys don't know so because of COVID and everyone was in lockdown or and you couldn't go on. Anyway, what we did basically is we all lined up on the road away from like families sort of parked at the side of the road on this long sort of back road. And we jumped out of the car and it was absolutely raining and we just saw under umbrellas just sort of going as they drove by. And that was the only way we could say goodbye. It was pretty. It was very sad. It was I cried my eyes. I took a video and I was like that I and Jason will has accused me of being an ugly crier before. And there is now video evidence of the fact that that is absolutely true. I think that was me sorry. I'm home alone, which is a bit strange. I think as I said earlier, my wife and kids are with COVID Apart from all over the kids in KL, which is delayed their return to Singapore, there isn't much for me to do in Singapore evenings, everything shuts early. And you're going to be hanging out in small groups. So it's not like I can make the most of the situation that I'm in particularly from that. I've been, I've been buying some shares because I reckon there's a few bargains around at the moment. So I've been doing a bit of research into a few a few companies, primarily the ASX touch up and in Australia, I've been focusing, and of course, preparing for our move to Perth, which is about five weeks away now. So I call that one of the schools yesterday, it was interesting. And I, I said, we're coming down towards the end of April, I'd like to find out about getting the kids into the school at the beginning of term three in the middle of July. And they said, Is there any reason why you're keeping your children off school for so long? And then I thought, Oh, they the way the educators operate in Australia forgotten about that. And the same in the UK? It's like, it's my job to make sure that any child in the in the catchment area is in the school. Yeah. But But yeah, so having to figure all that stuff out, get on top of it is really what I've been doing bit by bit. There's so many things, right. Yeah. Moving countries is always so easy, as we all know. Yeah. So I'm saying I took on your advice. And is it Toni Collette pieces of her? Yeah, yeah. What an amazing what an amazing program and really powerful female characters and great stories. So while I've still got one more week of having no man to think about when it comes to my evening viewings, I am taking recommendations but yeah, right now I'm watching that. It's really good. Really good. Great. She's fantastic. She's amazing. She cries the same way that she did in Muriel's Wedding. Have you noticed that? Yeah. Yeah. It's she's got this. She's got this way of using her mouth. Anyway, thank you so much. Thank you, Andy, for joining us again. I really appreciate it. So much that so much of the conversation, I know you'll be back again, Sam, thanks for sitting in. I know you'll be back again as well. Joe, thanks for your T shirt. All I can say as a packer the whole show I'm like trying not to smile about it. But thanks, guys. Thanks for listening. You know, we're just trying to just make sense. We just, you know, just ordinary people trying to make sense of very complicated world and I hope we're doing it in a way that makes sense to people like us. Keep you know, stay open, look at all sides. Watch and read things that you don't normally do because we need you to. And yeah, we'll see you next week, I think. Right. You guys. Have a good weekend. Bye, guys.